tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 199):
No, it is there in the MH370 thread because we have no warning signs that Zaharie was anything other than a well adjusted, very competent 777 pilot. And the A/C has not been found, thus we do not have the CVR. And was not tracked on radar. Might be the same, might not. Don't know yet. The Germanwings, for all the unknowns, has a pretty good indicator of what happened. FO flew the A/C into an alp.

Take it to the MH370 thread.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 195):
His wife and four of his friends identified his voice in the “good night Malaysian Three Seven Zero” message.
Quoting DDR (Reply 193):
That doesn't mean he was in command when the plane crashed. I can't prove he wasn't and you can't prove he was. That's a simple fact.
Quoting DDR (Reply 193):
What we do know is that whatever happened if a malicious person (Pilots, crew, pax) took
Quoting DDR (Reply 193):
We know that the last person heard from was the Captain who said good night to ATC...
Quoting casinterest (Reply 187):
And we should trust pilots , but 370 is a mystery now, and it will remain one.

Completely unneccessary discussion. We have 78 (!) MH370 threads in this forum, and counting. Please take your disagreement there.

In the Germanwings crash, we have the plane, we have the CVR, we have written proof concerning the co-pilots medical condition. The situation is completely different from MH370. COMPLETELY.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
antskip
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:06 am

The evidence so far overwhelmingly points to a sequence of premeditated actions on the part of the co-pilot that led to the murder of everyone on board his plane. For most of us, this was an almost unbelievable reversal of what we expect as the reality of the unarticulated social contract between passenger and crew on a modern airliner. Certainly in my around 55 years of flying I never once thought that the flight crew of my aircraft might want to harm us all rather than fly us to our destination safely. No less have I ever thought a medical surgeon might rather kill me than help me when in their care. When I get on a plane or get cut open, I do expect those who we have given up our care to, to do their best to get us to our destination safely - at which point we regain the freedom and self-responsibility that we for a time ceded to them. That is the terror about this whole event. It was no accident. The individual's power ceded to the professional was used not in their interests but to harm them. Lives were terminated, not looked after.

And as for empathy for the co-pilot - he is not a victim. Murderers lose the right to empathy when they show their own complete lack of empathy for others by destroying them. They chose for themselves not to be seen as part of a humanity they feel so little for. To the completely innocent victims and their families and friends we owe heartfelt compassion, empathy and justice.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 202):
And as for empathy for the co-pilot

I suspect that you are making the common mistake of confusing the word "empathy" with the word "sympathy."
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:11 am

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 201):
The situation is completely different from MH370. COMPLETELY.

You are feeding the very fire you claim to be wanting to put out.
 
antskip
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:22 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 203):
I suspect that you are making the common mistake of confusing the word "empathy" with the word "sympathy."

I have neither empathy nor sympathy for him.
 
tailskid
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 205):
I have neither empathy nor sympathy for him.

Without some degree of empathy, you will never have understanding.
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:59 am

I know the information being slowly released seems to wish away any Islamic terrorist connection. But when you have an administration that is nearly hellbent on minimizing the global Islamic jihadist movement, anything relating to plane crashes, mass shootings, etc, will be suspect. And they should be. And any "official" word would be suspect too.

I simply don't accept all information that is given to me in front of all the others, for that would be naive.
 
rolfen
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:05 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 206):
Quoting antskip (Reply 205):
I have neither empathy nor sympathy for him.

Without some degree of empathy, you will never have understanding.

I have the impression that it's not totally sure yet, but if it is what you're talking about, there is nothing to understand.
Sorry, but there is nothing to understand. It makes no sense. History is littered with such events. I mean do you think wars make more sense?

The copilot should not be getting any merci. Should he want to have merce he should ask for it, and explain his case, for that he should've remained alive.

I don't believe in mental illness. And he if he is was really ill to the point of killing so many with him in his death, then he would not care and he's dead anyway so what's the big deal.

We will never understand.
rolf
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting rolfen (Reply 208):
I mean do you think wars make more sense?

Sure, wars make sense. Nations or tyrannical leaders sometimes bully other nations and/or countries defend themselves against such. So wars do make perfect sense.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting tailskid (Reply 200):
Take it to the MH370 thread.

You brought it up here, you deal with it here.
 talktothehand 

[Edited 2015-03-27 22:16:39]
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
rolfen
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 209):
Sure, wars make sense.

Not sure about that myself. It's hard to make sense of so much loss and destruction.
rolf
 
art
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:58 am

Sorry, have not read all ~2000 posts about this disaster.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
So you'd be perfectly happy for a pilot to conceal a mental or physical issue that has an impact on his ability to perform his job, from his employer? Just to remind you, his job is to safely transport hundreds of people from A to B, possibly multiple times a day.

I go along with your view. When someone has a job where he/she is responsible for the safety of others, a diagnosed health condition that could compromise his/her ability to do that job competently should IMO be reported to the employer directly. Issuing a certificate to the employee for that employee to report the problem to his/her employer does not guarantee the employer is informed of the problem.

For example, if someone is a bus driver and when their eyes are tested their vision is judged to be insufficent, I do not think that he/she should be allowed the option to conceal that from the employer (or from the authority that issues/withdraws licences to drive a vehicle).
 
b747400erf
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 207):
I know the information being slowly released seems to wish away any Islamic terrorist connection. But when you have an administration that is nearly hellbent on minimizing the global Islamic jihadist movement, anything relating to plane crashes, mass shootings, etc, will be suspect. And they should be. And any "official" word would be suspect too.

I simply don't accept all information that is given to me in front of all the others, for that would be naive.

Old account not many posts and a strange mash of conspiracy and truther "just asking questions" talking points with a slight at Obama. Strange...

More on topic...I wonder if the pilot was on medication that created suicidal thoughts.

[Edited 2015-03-27 23:39:16]
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:53 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 213):
More on topic...I wonder if the pilot was on medication that created suicidal thoughts.

The psycho-active drugs prescribed for depression and anxiety can have wildly different effects on different people. For example, the anti depression medication prescribed for one of my family members actually increased their thoughts of suicide. And if you look at side effects of many prescription drugs for medical conditions, suicidal thoughts may be found as a possible side effect. Lizzie would know way more about this than I.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 214):

The psycho-active drugs prescribed for depression and anxiety can have wildly different effects on different people. For example, the anti depression medication prescribed for one of my family members actually increased their thoughts of suicide. And if you look at side effects of many prescription drugs for medical conditions, suicidal thoughts may be found as a possible side effect. Lizzie would know way more about this than I.

They said he was not being treated for depression but a physical ailment, so maybe a pain killer?
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:07 am

This report is a game changer:
http://m.france24.com/en/20150328-ge...anwings-pilot-lubitz-history-name/

Supposedly Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend that one day everyone would know his name, and that he would do something that would have a huge effect on the industry. She also reported he had nightmares where he woke up screaming about an aircraft going down, and knew that his mental troubles would prevent him from becoming a long haul pilot with LH. This all seems to indicate his intent was developed a while back, and it makes this whole scenario that much more frightening.

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:10 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 213):
Old account not many posts and a strange mash of conspiracy and truther "just asking questions" talking points with a slight at Obama. Strange...

This is a discussion with many elements to it - as are multi-faceted discussions by nature. You may not be happy by what you hear but nonetheless these are vital to the discourse, irrespective of your opinions on the topic at hand.
 
oldas
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:16 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 140):


Amen. All these unqualified people talking about depression, mental illness has become quite boring.

Everyone is a sudden expert. People are crucifying the co-pilot without knowing the full story.

And for everyone bitching about the cockpit door security because of 9/11, to my knowledge Germanwings has never flown the A320 to the U.S. so you can't blame America for a German company electing to reinforce the cockpit door.

And for the posters who have suggested that each crew member should be given "part of a code" to put together to open the cockpit door NO THANKS. In that scenario, the terrorists would just kill us off one by one.

I have flown before the reinforced cockpit door and after the reinforced cockpit door and I feel much safer the way it is now. And remember, for security reasons, there are safety procedures in place which are not discussed on public forums.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

NO, NO ! We have here a lot of qualified people with experience in flying as well people experienced in mental and psychological things. Mental illness seems to be right scenario for now thus not boring. We all here try to understand! And: THIS HERE IS DISCUSSION FORUM.

Not everyone but some experts are here. Agree - nobody has right to crucify the co-pilot now until case is fully clear. On the other hand indications are here and if this will turnout to be prove NO EXCUSE for co-pilot bringing inocent people to death.

Flight attendand in cocpit when pilot leaves: Yes make sense for the case pilot will i.e. suddenly faint or black out. Yes make sense even in "depressed" scenario. It is harder for someone to commit suicide in presence of other person. See my previous post. But it will not necessarily prevent someone to do it.

Part code for accessing cocpit: make sense IMHO, I personally trust in teams more then individuals and if at least one person is strong enough to withstand, cocpit remains secure. The question is: Doest this fit in emergency procedures where time is the factor?
 
heyjoojoo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:18 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 216):
Supposedly Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend that one day everyone would know his name, and that he would do something that would have a huge effect on the industry. She also reported he had nightmares where he woke up screaming about an aircraft going down, and knew that his mental troubles would prevent him from becoming a long haul pilot with LH. This all seems to indicate his intent was developed a while back, and it makes this whole scenario that much more frightening.

How is this a "game changer" if you start off by saying, "supposedly..."?

The tidbit of information surrounding his girlfriend is interesting since I was hearing this as early as yesterday. But it was apparently tinged with elements of Islamism. The officials there still have refrained from discussing his religious background, which remains to be a red flag to me.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting oldas (Reply 218):
Part code for accessing cocpit: make sense IMHO, I personally trust in teams more then individuals and if at least one person is strong enough to withstand, cocpit remains secure. The question is: Doest this fit in emergency procedures where time is the factor?

Currently the system does not capitalize on the fact you can trust teams of people far easier than individuals of the group itself. My proposed cabin crew key pool with added poison pool now allows a mostly sane crew to correctly override the cockpit door when needed or lock it out when needed. All it takes is an updated door pin pad, some software, and training. No remote controls, no extensive sat-links, no extra weight that is measurable, no wasted floor space, easy to integrate with existing ID cards.

The assumption that one person of a team of many is going to do the right thing is many orders of magnitude better than saying you trust one person with everything. My multi-key proposal adopts this mindset.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 160):
A cabin crew override system that requires the explicit cooperation of all members allows correctly acting crew members and passengers to fight back. While in a hijacking the cabin crew can render their key pool useless by erasing their devices covertly.I trust the crew as a group but I find it hard to say we can trust single individuals any more regardless if they are passenger/crew. A pooled system provides protection through numbers.

Sir, we have all read your proposed solution in this 12-part thread in at least 40 or 50 posts. You don't need to repeat yourself many more times. We get the idea. Now send your proposed invention to Boeing, Airbus. airlines, FAA, DHS (and international equivalents), and get it implemented.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
OMP777X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:40 am

Quoting heyjoojoo (Reply 219):
How is this a "game changer" if you start off by saying, "supposedly..."?


How are the two mutually exclusive? If it is true, it is a game changer. It proves he didn't just suddenly "snap", and had intended to commit mass murder for some time. I didn't interview the ex-girlfriend myself, nor do I know for certain if she has any ulterior motives, so I will be cautious and refrain from stating that this allegation is entirely factual.

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:43 am

There doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation around the possibility that the F/O simply lost consciousness for other reasons, which would explain the apparently calm and regular breathing.

Surely, someone about to off himself in such fashion would get a little worked out.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
artsyman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:48 am

And did he swap the altitude from 38,000 to 96ft while unconscious ?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 223):

There doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation around the possibility that the F/O simply lost consciousness for other reasons, which would explain the apparently calm and regular breathing.

Surely, someone about to off himself in such fashion would get a little worked out.


[Edited 2015-03-28 00:57:53]
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:50 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 221):
Sir, we have all read your proposed solution in this 12-part thread in at least 40 or 50 posts. You don't need to repeat yourself many more times. We get the idea. Now send your proposed invention to Boeing, Airbus. airlines, FAA, DHS (and international equivalents), and get it implemented.

I've just recently conceived of additional security measures in light of what other people have suggested for the system so it is a work in progress (Poison pill pool is a new which allows total plausible deniability making terrorists have an impossible time figuring out the right set of keys to use). I'm already writing up a working document to send off next week. This is just a way for me to gather information from other people which is why you see me go on and on about it. If you don't feel like contributing to it you can safely ignore it.

I'm basically seeking public input because more brains the better. I'm doing the same thing on multiple other forums and places to see what other ideas, potential flaws, modifications, exist out there. It is all very helpful and any input critical or not is appreciated.
 
artsyman
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:57 am

I keep seeing comments like this that ignore seemingly obvious reasons why it cannot be the case. I've read how the co-pilot was unconscious from a decompression from various reasons including broken windshield etc. So did this decompression only affect the co-pilot and no one else ?. The Captain can be heard banging and shouting, the pasengers can be heard screaming. Is it selective decompression ? - Did the co-pilot also override the locks while unconscious ? - Someone did this by choice not be accident. Several items (overriding the backup lock entry, and changing the desired altitude) were physical actions that were not done while unconscious

Quoting francoflier (Reply 223):
There doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation around the possibility that the F/O simply lost consciousness for other reasons, which would explain the apparently calm and regular breathing.


[Edited 2015-03-28 00:58:54]

[Edited 2015-03-28 01:02:10]
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:03 am

Quoting artsyman (Reply 226):
I keep seeing comments like this that ignore seemingly obvious reasons why it cannot be the case. I've read how the co-pilot was unconscious from a decompression from various reasons including broken windshield etc. So did this decompression only affect the co-pilot and no one else ?. The Captain can be heard banging and shouting, the pasengers can be heard screaming. Is it selective decompression ?

I think the door locking system does consider this fact already.

https://youtu.be/ROIH3KCEIvs?t=1m

"The CLDS (Control Door Locking System), monitors rapid pressure variations in the cockpit", the video says so I believe if the differential pressure from the flight deck varies suddenly the door will unlock. (Probably only if the cockpit pressure is significantly lower than the cabin behind to account for a broken window)

Edit: In this manner the captain should be able to open the door if that was the case.

[Edited 2015-03-28 01:05:14]
 
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qf789
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:10 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 216):
This report is a game changer:
http://m.france24.com/en/20150328-ge...anwings-pilot-lubitz-history-name/

Supposedly Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend that one day everyone would know his name, and that he would do something that would have a huge effect on the industry. She also reported he had nightmares where he woke up screaming about an aircraft going down, and knew that his mental troubles would prevent him from becoming a long haul pilot with LH. This all seems to indicate his intent was developed a while back, and it makes this whole scenario that much more frightening.

something similar is being reported on news.com.au


THE former girlfriend of German co-pilot Andreas Lubitz has broken her silence about the tormented man who killed 149 people and himself in the Germanwings plane crash on Tuesday.

The woman, who remains anonymous, told the German newspaper Bild that Lubitz would wake from nightmares screaming “We’re going down”.

She said Lubitz made an ominous reference a year ago to the heinous act he carried out this week.
“When I heard about the crash, there was just a tape playing in my head of what he said, ‘One day I will do something that will change the system and everyone will then know my name and remember me’,” she said.

“I did not know what he meant by that at the time, but now it’s clear.”

The woman said she left Lubitz because of his erratic behaviour, and the break-up reportedly devastated the already disturbed pilot. It’s understood he had bought matching Audis and planned to give one to her.

The ex-girlfriend’s revelations affirm reports from others who knew Lubitz as a troubled man who had endured long bouts of depression and burnout.

He had a sick note excusing him from work on the day he is suspected of having intentionally crashed Germanwings Airbus A320, killing everyone on board.
It has also been revealed he had been in hospital just a fortnight earlier and may have been on medication for his illness — believed to have been psychological — but hid the fact from his employers so he could keep alive his boyhood dream of flying.

Lubitz reportedly feared he was about to lose his flying license on the grounds of his medical condition, as at least two doctors deemed him unfit.

As these latest details emerge those who knew him also said Lubitz was “obsessed” by the Alps and knew the area of the crash well reported the International Business Times.

He was a gliding enthusiast and took part in at least one class organised by his local flying club in the French Alps’ province where he brought down the flight according to Le Parisien newspaper.
It has also been revealed he had been in hospital just a fortnight earlier and may have been on medication for his illness — believed to have been psychological — but hid the fact from his employers so he could keep alive his boyhood dream of flying.

A club member told the newspaper that during the class the 28-year-old flew over the mountains he later chose to die on.

“He was passionate about the Alps and even obsessed. I’m sure he knew the crash area because he had glided over it,” said Dieter Wagner.

The revelations came as it was revealed the pilot of the ill-fated flight even tried using an axe to hack through the armoured door as the plane was sent into its fatal descent by Lubitz according to Bild

Lubitz locked himself into the cockpit when the captain went out to use the toilet, then refused his colleague’s increasingly desperate entreaties to reopen the door, French prosecutor Brice Robin said.

As details about Lubitz continue to emerge a steady stream of family of the 149 victims under police escort continued yesterday to visit a hastily-erected granite memorial in the village of Le Vernet, overlooking the mountain behind which their loved ones remains were being recovered.
French authorities today confirmed between 400 and 600 body parts from the crash site in a deep rocky ravine had been recovered and were subject to DNA testing to positively identify them.

German investigators were today continuing to uncover vital new clues to help reveal what prompted the 27-year-old Lubitz to want to take his own life and of his five colleagues and 144 passengers.

It was revealed on Friday he had been a patient at Dusseldorf University Hospital where he checked himself in for “diagnostic evaluation” on March 10 for an unknown illness.

The German prosecutor’s office said medical records seized showed he had an existing illness and was being treated by doctors. They also found torn-up sick notes at his apartment in Dusseldorf. He divided his time between there and his parents’ home in Montabaur.
“The fact there are sick notes saying he was unable to work, among other things, that were found torn up, which were recent and even from the day of the crime, support the assumption based on the preliminary examination that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and his professional colleagues,” a spokesman for the prosecutor’s office said.

They have confirmed also his flying file at the Federal Aviation Office had a note which said he required “specific regular medical examination.”

No suicide note was found or anything that hinted what he was about to do, or that he was motivated by any political or religious agenda.

Dusseldorf University Hospital confirmed Lubitz had been a patient and had come to the hospital on March 10 but declined to say why, ruling out German media reports it was for depression. Some of his friends have said he had suffered depression and had been in treatment with psychologists since 2009, for at least 18 months.
France’s Prime Minister Manuel Valls called on Lufthansa to provide all information they had on him. This followed a series of press conferences by Lufthansa — the parent company of Germanwings — and Germanwings management, during which they failed to respond to specific questions about Lubitz and the flight. In some cases, they admitted they simply did not know the answers, including to such simple queries as to why the aircraft had been 30 minutes late taking off.

German press has also stated Lufthansa would have been well aware of Lubitz’s condition, with his personnel file stating he suffered from a “serious depressive episode”, yet faced questions as to why they allowed him to continue flying.

Mr Valls said that Lufthansa should give the maximum of information, “so that we can understand why this pilot got to the point of this horrific action.” He added that “Everything is pointing towards an act that we can’t describe: criminal, crazy, suicidal”.
Germanwings, which has asked for its adverts to be taken down from London Underground stations, was setting up a family assistance centre in the French city of Marseille.

They had also offered the victims’ families “up to 50,000 euros ($54,800) per passenger” towards their immediate costs.

The assistance, which the families would not be required to pay back, was separate from the compensation that the airline will likely have to pay over the disaster, a Germanwings spokesman told AFP.

A religious ceremony will take place on Saturday morning at 10.30am (09:30 GMT) at the Notre-Dame-du-Bourg cathedral in the nearby town of Digne-les-Bains, police said.

Families continued to visit Le Vernet, the tiny village closest to the crash sites where a granite memorial has been erected. Etched in French, German, Spanish and English is “in memory of the victims of the air disaster of March 24, 2015”.
Many lay flowers and comforted each other as they stared out toward the mountain behind which lay the remains of the plane and their loved ones, as overhead helicopters thumped back and forth carrying rescuers and crime scene investigators to the scene.

Belgian Claude Driessens, a brother of one of the crash victims Christian Driessens, said he was in a “rage” after hearing the crash may have been intentional. He also questioned what Lufthansa knew about the copilot’s illness.

He said he found it unacceptable the airline allowed a sick pilot to fly a plane and secondly allowed a person to be alone in the cockpit contrary to policies by other airlines,

“For me that’s blatant negligence,” he said.

In the wake of the tragedy one recent Germanwings passenger told of how the pilot on her flight put them all at ease.

It was day after the horrific crash that Britta Englisch boarded her Germanwings flight and she was feeling understandably emotional reported Buzzfeed.

But the pilot did something special in his effort to reassure passengers and she took to social media to appluad him.

“Yesterday morning at 8:40 a.m., I got onto a Germanwings flight from Hamburg to Cologne with mixed feelings. But then the captain not only welcomed each passenger separately, he also made a short speech before take off. Not from the cockpit — he was standing in the cabin. He spoke about how the accident touched him and the whole crew. About how queasy the crew feels, but that everybody from the crew is voluntarily here. And about his family and that the crew have a family and that he is going to do everything to be with his family again tonight. It was completely silent. And then everybody applauded. I want to thank this pilot. He understood what everybody was thinking. And that he managed to give, at least me, a good feeling for this flight.”
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joeycapps
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:34 am

Honestly not trying to be offensive or repetitive (I too have not read every single reply), but I am curious as to whether those who cite mental health, and have an understanding of mental health, could shed light on a possible sudden and overwhelming psychosis of sorts? I'm thinking back through the (albeit rare) instances, for example the B6 pilot who was intentionally locked out of the cockpit by the F/O for suddenly acting irrationally, or the DL F/A (I believe it was DL) who began hysterically speaking about the devil, 9/11, and hijackings over the PA? Granted, in the latter example, nothing transpired of a serious life-threatening nature, but one can only wonder what could have possibly happened in the cockpit of the B6 aircraft had the F/O ignored the obvious symptoms.

As a disclaimer; I am not a therapist, psychologist or doctor of any sorts, just trying to throw something in.

Vis-a-vis the cockpit security system, I think the best solution (IMHO) is a second 'filler' crewmember stepping into the cockpit as apparently implemented by airlines recently. Unfortunately, every possible contingency plan to get around this situation has a flaw or two, or at the very least is a double-edged sword.

Irrespective of opinions, debates and deliberation, if anyone immediately affected by this tragedy is reading this, please know that the entire world is sending our sincerest condolences and this is unfortunate, irrespective of who/what caused it.
 
MigPilot
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 222):
f it is true, it is a game changer.


The German tabloids are all over it too. I don’t think it’s a game changer. Except some conspiracy nuts everybody has accepted that he was mentally ill and brought the plane down intentionally. It’s just another facet of his disease.
 
LovesCoffee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting QF789 (Reply 228):
Lubitz would wake from nightmares screaming “We’re going down"

Hearing this (if true) is hard to reconcile with the steady breathing to impact. I hope they can find enough of the FO to do a toxicology test.
Life is too short for cheap coffee.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:03 am

Quoting joeycapps (Reply 229):
Vis-a-vis the cockpit security system, I think the best solution (IMHO) is a second 'filler' crewmember stepping into the cockpit as apparently implemented by airlines recently. Unfortunately, every possible contingency plan to get around this situation has a flaw or two, or at the very least is a double-edged sword.

A two person system does nothing as either person could be the attacker and could easily overpower the other by the element of surprise. It is the poor door control logic which is the root problem.

I don't see how a cabin crew controlled key pool is a double edge sword. The door was meant to be a shield against attack from the passenger cabin but actively prevents corrective actions if the malicious person(s) are already on the secure side.

Allowing authorized access by means of a cabin crew key pool with poison pill pool and duress mechanisms allows for secure access in these cases while making extremely hard for terrorists to abuse the system. The aforementioned countermeasures provide both a shield against in-cabin attacks against cabin crew and a plausible deniability in that terrorists can't figure out which keys are needed before they are all rendered useless.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 64):
So it looks like Lufthansa wants to give the victims' relatives 50,000 EUR each (in addition to the compulsory compensation to be paid by the insurance). Way to avoid multi-million euro court settlements? A bit fishy IMO.

That is a payment made voluntarily by LH to cover the urgent needs of the families and reduce the financial pressure on them in this time of deep crisis and sorrow. It is a kind gesture imho and not "fishy".

And going to the role of LH in the incident, they had none.

We know they have set him up for regular mental tests. Obviously he passed them otherwise he would not be flying. All his other problems and the reasons for him being sick and unfit to work are not disclosed to LH. They just get a note telling them that he is not fit to work and that is all the info they get. Even if they would try to find out and act on any knowledge gained, their actions would be illegal.

I hope this is seen as a reason to change the current laws in Germany and make the information of the employer that the employee is unfit to work automatic. This was a extreme case but a light headed excavator operator is also not much fun, I can tell you.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:52 am

As others have noted here and elsewhere, apparently the co-pilot had plans to do a spectacular act to bring attention to himself, going out in a spectacular way of perverse glory for his problem, cause or get revenge. This is similar to the reasoning of those that have done assassination/suicides or mass murder/suicides in schools or public places. I do agree with some that the use of various drugs to control mental health conditions may do more harm than good. The fear of being discovered you use such drugs or side affects can destroy your employment and life.

If someone did a mass murder or an assassination over 120 or so years ago, it was pretty much not known by many, especially outside their town or neighborhood. The rise of new forms of media, evolving from newspapers, to movies, radio, TV, and in recent years the internet have encouraged many to do horrible acts knowing they would get massive regional, national and international attention. Clearly this crash got that. It is impossible to turn back the attention mass murders, terrorists get. I work near the WTC site in NYC so see every day, the attention the acts of that fateful day on 9/11/01 still have on the public.
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting LovesCoffee (Reply 210):
Quoting tailskid (Reply 200):
Take it to the MH370 thread.

You brought it up here, you deal with it here.

You don't understand. He makes the rules for the threads he participates in and the rules only apply to others.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
a380heavy
Posts: 237
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:34 pm

Speakng as someone who has suffered with depression for four years, not to the extent where I required any hospitalisation but who was on a relatively high dose of Sertraline of 150mg daily I can say the following:

(A) I had good days and bad days, my mood at night time gave no indication of how I'd wake in the morning.
(B) On bad days rationality could be difficult - not wanting to go out, open mail or answer the phone.
(C) For the majority of the time you could not tell I was suffering at all - I could laugh and joke with friends just like normal.
(D) I wouldn't wish depression on my worst enemy - it is so hard to understand, a lot of people find it really difficult to talk about and it is really difficult to tell a point in time when you are fully better.

I'd been through a tough time, I'd lost two close relatives in quick succession, my marriage of 10 years had broken down, I had the associated money issues setting up a new home brings and I was made redundant from work. All these events happened over a space of 3 years but it ended up being enough to chip away at me and take me through breaking point.

In my case my breaking point manifested itself in me waking up tearful for no apparent new reason, I also had a feeling of low personal worth.

I was used to being the life and soul of the party, confident and successful in a high pressure, highly regulated customer-facing role and braking in tears felt very alien to me so I sought help.

I did various questionnaires, kept a log of daily happenings and the effect +ve or -ve on me - I was utterly shocked that the scores I achieved in the questionnaires and consultation labeled me as severely depressed.

I've done my best here to give a brief insight in to my depression for those forum members who have been fortunate enough not to suffered a similar illness or condition.

Andreas Lubitz (if not physically incapacitated), in his opinion, felt his life was no longer worth living. If he was in such a bad state of mind his capacity to think rationally would have been severely depleted - even to the extent he probably hardly gave all those poor victims a second thought. Clearly the captain of the flight felt it safe to leave the people's safety in the hands of Mr Lubitz, so his state of mind was convincingly masked.

I believe, going forward, the two PEOPLE in the cockpit at any one time is the best response to this terrible tragedy.

Without, for one second, forgetting the horror and sadness for those left behind following the loss of their loved ones, we need to put things in to context when seeking to try and ensure that this doesn't happen again.

According to the Aviation Safety Network there have been 8 cases of pilot suicide in the last 41 years and with between 90-100,000 flights taking place each and every day the probability of being killed as a result of pilot suicide is truly miniscule.

Any potential solution has its own flaws. The cockpit door locks since 9/11 was the right thing to do to stop undesirables getting in. In a hijacking it's a great solution because it cannot be overridden from the cabin, however, in this instance the best solution for one instance became the worst.

I hope this post comes across in the right manner.

My heart goes out to all people who have suffered a loss in this horrible crash and nothing.
Flown in:732,733,734,738,742,752,763,772,F27,DC9,MD-11,A300,A319,A320,A321,A332,ATR72,DHC-6,Bell206,C172,Auster,PA-28,DH-89A
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 236):
I believe, going forward, the two PEOPLE in the cockpit at any one time is the best response to this terrible tragedy.

That's only a partial solution. Stop making working conditions for pilots and cabin crew worse and worse. EU needs to do something so we avoid that no pension, no pay during sick leave etc will not become the default.

It's pressuring people with mental illnesses to go to work.
 
giopan1975
Posts: 57
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 236):
Andreas Lubitz (if not physically incapacitated), in his opinion, felt his life was no longer worth living. If he was in such a bad state of mind his capacity to think rationally would have been severely depleted - even to the extent he probably hardly gave all those poor victims a second thought.

As you well wrote in your post, depression includes both "good and bad" days. By "good days" we refer to time periods with rational thinking and staying in reality.

Therefore, during his good days, Lubitz should have realized he is not capable of flying and retire.

Instead, he was telling his girlfriend that one day the whole world will know his name.

He was firstly a mass murderer, secondly a mentally ill individual committing suicide.

If he had survived the crash, he should have been awarded the death penalty without any second thought.
 
Morvious
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting artsyman (Reply 226):
I'm basically seeking public input because more brains the better. I'm doing the same thing on multiple other forums and places to see what other ideas, potential flaws, modifications, exist out there. It is all very helpful and any input critical or not is appreciated.

Ok, I'll bite

The logic behind looking for a solution is to find the problem first.

What you are trying to suggest is to change a system to keep people out of the cockpit. But this system didn't fail, it did what it was designed to do. Why change it? Problems with your solution are:

* You make this system weaker with loopholes
* You can't tell if your solution whould have prevented this tragic event (It doesn't take long to rapidly descend an aircraft from 38000ft to 8000ft. Even if the pilot could re-enter the cockpit he still needs to fight off the co-pilot and pull up the aircraft)


The problem here was that a person wasn't supposed to fly according to his medical record but this message wasn't shared with the company. The other problem is that the person was alone in the cockpit, which most airliners have already changed now.

Focus on the problems and start from there.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
777way
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:21 pm

Well there is an airline pilot posting in here, reading some of his replies in other topics including mine, I'm disturbed to know of his vocation in relation to his mindset.

Regarding depression, it can be such that as bad a it is you may not want to come out of it because in that mental state you cannot imagine that life can have meaning and be happy again, pilot could have been in that state.
 
SimonDanger
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 236):
Speakng as someone who has suffered with depression for ... years

As someone who also has been treated for depression, I think you describe well the mysterious ways that depression affects people. And while I can fully empathize with people similarly afflicted, I am also angry at the FO for killing so many innocent victims of his disease. He should have heeded his doctor's warnings (to the extent that we know completely what his doctor was recommending), his doctor should have said something to his employer, and his family may well have known about some of his difficulties as well. While I'm not comfortable with a police state-like sound to this, at some level people trusted with the lives of hundreds of members of the public should be held to a higher standard. If pilots are not comfortable with those higher standards they should either choose a different career or expect to be replaced by computers who don't suffer mental diseases.
 
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American 767
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:30 pm

Thread now archived, please click on this link to continue:

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13 (by American 767 Mar 28 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
trex8
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:34 pm

Does anyone know if Aldrin ever flew again after his NASA career but while still commandant of the USAF test pilot school ? Seems he had serious depression issues then.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...followed-that-historic-flight.html
 
art
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 237):
Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 236):I believe, going forward, the two PEOPLE in the cockpit at any one time is the best response to this terrible tragedy.

That's only a partial solution.

If a minor change in procedure results in a major reduction in risk, it's worth implementing. While the ideal objective is (a) to prevent access to the cockpit by the unauthorised eg hijackers (b) to ensure access to the cockpit by the authorised eg pilots, it is stupid to pass up implementing interim partial solutions that are neither very disruptive nor expensive.

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