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cathay747
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LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:39 pm

Just got this from LH:

Lufthansa Group further refines its safety structures

Group member airlines to adopt “rule of two” for aircraft cockpits;
Group Safety Pilot reporting directly to the Group CEO
East Meadow, NY, March 27, 2015 – In coordination with the German Federal Aviation Office (Luftfahrtbundesamt) other German airlines and the German aviation industry association (Bundesverband der deutschen Luftverkehrswirtschaft), the airlines of the Lufthansa Group are to adopt a new cockpit occupancy procedure as a precautionary measure. Under the new procedure, two authorized persons must be present in the cockpit at all times during a flight.

The passenger airlines of the Lufthansa Group will adopt the new procedure as soon as possible, in due consultation with their national aviation authority.

The Lufthansa Group is also expanding its safety structures. In addition to the safety pilots at each of its member airlines, the new position of Group Safety Pilot has been created until further notice. The new post will be assumed with immediate effect by Captain Werner Maas, who will hold it in parallel with his current function as Safety Pilot of Deutsche Lufthansa AG. Captain Maas will have overarching group-wide responsibility for examining and further refining all flight safety-relevant procedures in his new capacity, in which he reports directly to Group CEO Carsten Spohr.



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AABB777
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:12 pm

It seems to me governments around the world follow the U.S.(FAA)'s lead when it comes to airline/aviation safety. Why does the EU and other countries not follow the same policy of two crew members required in the cockpit at all times, even during pilot restroom breaks (when an FA goes into the cockpit while one of the two pilots exit)?
 
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ams747757
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Can't say we didn't see that coming.
 
anstar
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 1):

It seems to me governments around the world follow the U.S.(FAA)'s lead when it comes to airline/aviation safety

Should we also allow firearms into the flight deck like the US authorities do? Whats to say the person with intent doesn't just shoot the 2nd crew member.... its a false security blanket. With these new rules the flight deck door is going to be opened at least twice as much as it is currently which I believe introduces new risks. If someone wants to down the plane they will down the plane... I mean what is stopping them slamming it into the ground on final approach?



[Edited 2015-03-27 12:39:25]
 
747megatop
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Thread starter):
Under the new procedure, two authorized persons must be present in the cockpit at all times during a flight.

Do both the authorized persons have to be fully qualified pilots? Meaning; let's say one of the pilots is stepping out for some reason, will the relief person coming in have to be another pilot?
 
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ua900
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 1):
It seems to me governments around the world follow the U.S.(FAA)'s lead when it comes to airline/aviation safety.

Not always good to follow the U.S.

Example, let's say for a second that the EU had FFDOs, would you want to bet that a suicidal PIC can't get into that program and use their gun on the other person?

Two person rule is mostly psychological. The only thing I see a F/A do is to open the door after they win a struggle with the PIC. Better than nothing, but the real problem is that there are PICs like that to begin with. With a two-person rule, the PIC can still drug, stab or otherwise incapacitate the second person on the flight deck.

To me, the biggest implication of the 4U incident is that it damages flight crew morale. After all, 4U flight crews knew each well (unlike say LH or UA where you can easily meet someone for the first time ever). One can't be sure that the person next to you on the flight deck won't try to kill you on the spot, that's scary. And that can extend to allowing F/As to access the flight deck, no guarantee that a given F/A volunteers to be the second person in order to do harm.
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ua900
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 4):
Do both the authorized persons have to be fully qualified pilots? Meaning; let's say one of the pilots is stepping out for some reason, will the relief person coming in have to be another pilot?

Nope, PIC + F/A is ok. Many flights don't carry a third pilot anyway.
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bgm
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 1):
It seems to me governments around the world follow the U.S.(FAA)'s lead when it comes to airline/aviation safety.

Really? Explain to me then why in the US, passengers are allowed to leave their bags on the ground next to the emergency exits when almost every other non-US airline prohibits this.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 4):
Do both the authorized persons have to be fully qualified pilots? Meaning; let's say one of the pilots is stepping out for some reason, will the relief person coming in have to be another pilot?

No, Its any authorized airline employee, and they will be in the jump seat, not the empty flight crew seat.
All posts are just opinions.
 
n1805bn
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:11 pm

Consider this: since this rule was implemented in the USA, how many incidents like Germanwings have occurred in the USA?
 
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VCEflyboy
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:13 pm

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted..
 
thegman
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 7):

Really? Explain to me then why in the US, passengers are allowed to leave their bags on the ground next to the emergency exits when almost every other non-US airline prohibits this.

Do you mean under the seat in front of them?
 
AABB777
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 7):
Quoting AABB777 (Reply 1):
It seems to me governments around the world follow the U.S.(FAA)'s lead when it comes to airline/aviation safety.

Really? Explain to me then why in the US, passengers are allowed to leave their bags on the ground next to the emergency exits when almost every other non-US airline prohibits this.

In the U.S. carry on bags are not allowed "...on the ground next to the emergency exits..." Carry on items are allowed to be stowed by passengers seated in an exit row under the seat in front of them. This is a perfect example of another regulation in the U.S. that is not followed widely by foreign airlines. In the U.S. passengers are obviously allowed to stow bags under the forward seat in exit rows. In many other countries this is not allowed. Does a policy of no bags in the exit row compromise the safety of passengers in the event of an emergency? My opinion is no.

To my knowledge, I have not read of any emergencies where use of the over wing exits was needed (ie: DL at LGA recently) but items stowed under the forward seat in the exit row impacted the flow of passengers exiting the aircraft.

Back to the topic at hand, I do think a policy of two crew members in the cockpit at all times is smart and should be adopted by other airlines. I also think the corridor to the cockpit should be blocked by a crew member with a serving cart when the door is opened and closed.
 
bgm
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting thegman (Reply 11):
Do you mean under the seat in front of them?

Yes, which is really dumb, because in an emergency landing/rejected takeoff the bags can easily shift and then block the path to the overwing emergency exits.
 
bgm
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:22 pm

Quoting n1805bn (Reply 9):
Consider this: since this rule was implemented in the USA, how many incidents like Germanwings have occurred in the USA?

Consider this: *before* this rule was implemented in the USA, how many incidents like Germanwings have occurred in the USA?
 
warden145
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 7):
Really? Explain to me then why in the US, passengers are allowed to leave their bags on the ground next to the emergency exits when almost every other non-US airline prohibits this.

I flew on a UA domestic flight (757-222 DEN-SFO) in an exit row in 2011 and was explicitly prohibited from putting my backpack under the seat in front of me...
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
Curiousflyer
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 15):

Same, I purposedly avoid exit rows because I like to have my bag in reach. When i fly in the US, I am never allowed to leave my bag in an exit row, or am I missing something?
 
32andBelow
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 13):
Yes, which is really dumb, because in an emergency landing/rejected takeoff the bags can easily shift and then block the path to the overwing emergency exits.

The people sitting in the seats will move the laptop bags as they leave. If they people in the exit row are not able to then you have people blocking the row anyways. Also an emergency exit row is much wider than a normal row. Lastly, I have never had my bad just jump out form the seat in front of my while traveling.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 4):
Do both the authorized persons have to be fully qualified pilots? Meaning; let's say one of the pilots is stepping out for some reason, will the relief person coming in have to be another pilot?

As a purser/fight attendant this is something we do every day and have since 9/11. We always laugh that it seems the pilots need a "physiological break" exactly in the middle of our meal service but we don't mind. It is important that the entire crew is part of the security fence.

Yesterday, the CEO of LH said that he could see no reason to change their existing policy of leaving one pilot alone on the flight deck. I nearly fell out of my chair. I can give him 150 reasons. Later they reversed his inopportune remarks.

Frankly I was very surprised to learn that the "two crew member" policy in effect in the US was not a world-wide rule. It just made such common sense and was a no-cost item. We are well trained in procedures and the system works as well as we can hope. It frightens the daylights out of me to think of A380's and 747's flying around with only one person in the front end.

Investigation will eventually yield what illness this pilot had--for instance from prescription bottles found in his home--even though German medical confidentiality laws, like ours, do not end with the death of the patient. Someone in his family, for whom I have incredible sympathy at this time, may have information of importance.

I will keep these victims and their loved ones in my thoughts as the investigation progresses.
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bgm
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 17):
The people sitting in the seats will move the laptop bags as they leave.

Erm, if there is an evacuation, you're not supposed to bring your crap with you (although some idiots do)

Having bags stowed in the emergency exit row is stupid. I guarantee you in an emergency landing those bags will move (as does anything that is not secured). Don't you hear the announcement they repeatedly say about being careful opening the overhead bins as items might have shifted? You don't think items loosely placed under the seat in front of you will be affected by the same forces of nature?

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 17):
Lastly, I have never had my bad just jump out form the seat in front of my while traveling.

Have you been in an emergency situation?
 
BobbyPSP
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:01 pm

Never had a problem stowing an appropriate bag, in an exit row, under the seat in front of me on. US,AA,DL,UA,CO,WN
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:21 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 19):
Erm, if there is an evacuation, you're not supposed to bring your crap with you (although some idiots do)

He said move, not carry off the airplane.
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777Jet
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting ams747757 (Reply 2):
Can't say we didn't see that coming.

  

True.

This is hardly a surprise.
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777Jet
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
We always laugh that it seems the pilots need a "physiological break" exactly in the middle of our meal service but we don't mind. It is important that the entire crew is part of the security fence.

I'm glad that y'all don't mind. That's good teamwork.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
Frankly I was very surprised to learn that the "two crew member" policy in effect in the US was not a world-wide rule. It just made such common sense and was a no-cost item.

What concerns me is how the industry will respond if one day the FA who steps into the cockpit, whilst one of the pilots goes to use the lav, tries something stupid on the other pilot and goes on a suicide mission...
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DDR
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:30 am

Yes everyone, blame the U.S. These forums become so predictable. It was NEVER a good idea to leave one person alone in the cockpit. All the usual anti-American folks will come out with their responses but it's just common sense.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 7:40 am

And what of the suicidal crew member isn't the pilot, but rather the flight attendant?
Then this rule effectively gives him/her a legal ground to be present in the cockpit in a one-to-one situation with a seated/unarmed/strapped in pilot! He/she could easily have brought a knife with him/her from the galley, you know?
Fantastic procedure: it solves one risk, by creating another one.
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anstar
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:39 pm

deleted.....................................

[Edited 2015-03-28 05:43:23]
 
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scbriml
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 18):
It frightens the daylights out of me to think of A380's and 747's flying around with only one person in the front end.

But it's perfectly OK with one pilot and an FA? Hmm.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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dtw2hyd
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:43 pm

Every country is free to have their own rules. So no need to follow USA and whine about it.

$Billions spent on secure cockpit, one guy with some unknown illness/motive rendered it useless.
All posts are just opinions.
 
racko
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:03 pm

Given that United had to change their policy too it apparently was not the law in the US so far.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
But it's perfectly OK with one pilot and an FA? Hmm.

At least there are two of us up there. Airlines will not be able to justify the expense of having an extra pilot flying around "just in case." You could "what if" this situation into infinity..."what if the pilot grabbed the f/a and slit her throat with a razor blade?" "What if the pilot was attacked by the f/a?" "What if the f/a put something in the pilot crew meals to disable them (trust me....they'll eat anything!)" My point is that you can only take the safety issue so far and then you have to rely on your people.

I have complete and total trust in the professionalism of all of the pilots (and cabin crew) that I work with. A truly psychotic individual will concoct a way to beat the system if that is what they want to do.

IMHO the solution to this problem will be an enhanced method of electronic control of the door which CANNOT be overridden by a pilot in the cockpit but as was shown in the Ethiopian accident in 1999 even with a senior captain of considerable strength was unable to overcome his copilot who augered the airplane into the Atlantic.

I think all of us that fly for an airline have worked with someone that you thought was a little "weird"--on occasion it has been so obvious that I have gone to a manager and passed on my observations and those of my crew. At that point it become a personnel and HR issue and I am out of the loop but at least I have given SOMEONE a "heads up--something is not quite right here."

It is easy to forget that we are people, subject to the same issues as all of you--problems at home, divorce, child custody issues, severe financial issue--but I can honestly say that we make it a point (and I say it in briefings)--"Leave your personal issues here in the briefing room. We are all one team and we support each other. This is a "safe place." Your home issues will be there when you get back but for the balance of this trip put them behind you, relax, laugh and have some fun with your colleagues and let's get on with our jobs." You would be amazed how well that works. I have had so many f/a's com up to me quietly inflight and say "thanks--I am in a really bad place at home right now but I am so glad that I can find cover and comfort with all of you." Such a great compliment.

The destruction of Germanwings 9525 was such a horrific act we are all struggling to understand it. Moving forward I think we will all be more cognizant of the behaviors of the people we work with and will be less reticent about reporting concerns to management. They will be the ones that think "Ya know, this is the third person that has come in here about (blank)--something is going on that I need to follow up with.
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scbriml
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 30):
I have complete and total trust in the professionalism of all of the pilots (and cabin crew) that I work with. A truly psychotic individual will concoct a way to beat the system if that is what they want to do.

Especially when, in the US, they might have a gun in the cockpit.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
aacun
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:42 pm

Quoting racko (Reply 29):

What policy are you reffering to?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:14 pm

[

Quoting racko (Reply 29):
Given that United had to change their policy too it apparently was not the law in the US so far.

This has been confusing and I would like some clarification. Some have claimed the 2 person rule was FAA-mandated, others have said it was an individual company decision. Even the FAA have tried to claim they are responsible for the rule but I have a feeling that it was up to the individual airline.

Maybe someone from UA can clarify.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
beeweel15
Posts: 1026
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 19):
Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 17):
The people sitting in the seats will move the laptop bags as they leave.

Erm, if there is an evacuation, you're not supposed to bring your crap with you (although some idiots do)

There were many on AA/US455.





Also, I do know it is cold but I thought the rules also state your are not to slide down wearing shoes.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 34):
Also, I do know it is cold but I thought the rules also state your are not to slide down wearing shoes.

Women are asked to removed high-heeled shoes to prevent slide puncture. You do not want to be walking among possible burning metal wreckage in your bare feet. Professional Hint: ALWAYS have your shoes on for take off and landing.

For a planned evacuation women are also asked to remove pantyhose because the friction causes them to melt to their legs--a very painful situation. Unplanned--it is just get off as fast as you can.

What is with people worried about saving their carry-on luggage full of clothes that are easily replaceable? It also piles up at the end of the slide slowing down the evacuation process.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
Flighty
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RE: LH Joins List Of Airlines Changing Cockpit Rules..

Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 5):
To me, the biggest implication of the 4U incident is that it damages flight crew morale.

Sure but on the bright side, a whole new genre of gallows humor will be born.

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