AA’s #’s 3&4 788’s On Their Way To Mojave: Seats

yeogeo · Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:51 pm

Although briefly discussed in the 787 Production/delivery thread starting with Seabosdca’s entry at reply #71,
787 Production/Delivery Thread - Part 41 (by American 767 Mar 19 2015 in Civil Aviation)
I reckon the subject could use its own thread:

Bloomberg has published an article on AA’s new 787’s on their way to the desert for temporary storage “to resolve snarls” caused by late-arriving seats. “There is frustration…as planemakers boost output to work through a record order backlog and airlines refurbish older jets, you have this huge volume of seats required.”
(Bloomberg quoting Gary Weissel with Tronos Aviation Consulting Inc.)

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ompt-boeing-to-park-787s-in-desert

In the All Things 787 March 25th post, the problem is also mentioned, although not the Mojave storage.

“There's also been a lot of buzz about American Airlines 787 deliveries or lack thereof. It does seem that the production issues with [Plaisir, France-based] Zodiac seats are persisting and are not only affecting Boeing or 787 deliveries but are impacting different aircraft and manufacturers (Airbus and Boeing).”

http://nyc787.blogspot.com

These are to be American’s third and fourth 788’s, according to Bloomberg

yeo

vv701 · Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:56 pm

This is to me surprising news. With the Boeing production delays to the 787 I would have expected a log jam of components like seats queuing up waiting for installation and not a poor supply chain further delaying in service dates. But I guess this is all down to who pays the supplier for the seats. If it is the airline and not Boeing I can understand that if delivery of the frame is late the seat supplier will want to manufacture and deliver the seats to Boeing as close as possible to the aircraft's delivery date. Nevertheless would it be wise for the supplier to postpone manufacture of the seats for AA's 787s and then to accept more orders with delivery dates requiring production levels higher than its manufacturing capacity?

A coincidence appears to be that the first of these two AA frames is reported to be parked at VCV where it will be joined by the second. This is where BA ferried their first four 787-8s to for modification by Boeing in September, October and November last year long after they had first entered service.

rta · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:38 pm

Pretty annoying, because not only are the 788s delayed, but the 772 refurbishments are now put on hold.
Edit: Not sure exactly how much the 788s are delayed, if at all. I'm hearing they're parked in the desert either because they're missing seats or because AA wants their certification from the FAA first.

[Edited 2015-03-28 07:41:04]

glbltrvlr · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
But I guess this is all down to who pays the supplier for the seats. If it is the airline and not Boeing I can understand that if delivery of the frame is late the seat supplier will want to manufacture and deliver the seats to Boeing as close as possible to the aircraft's delivery date.

Up until recently, there has been two types of non-OEM equipment installed during aircraft manufacture. Supplier Furnished Equipment (SFE) and Buyer Furnished Equipment (BFE). SFE is where the OEM selects one or more suppliers to offer, say, an FMS. The buyer picks which one they want, the OEM contracts with the supplier, manages the delivery and installs it on the production line.

Aircraft seating, galleys and other cabin elements have traditionally been BFE. That means that the airline is responsible for for contracting delivery of the item to the OEM in time for installation. Whatever the airline ordered has to meet OEM specs, but there's no contractual relationship between OEM and the supplier.

For the A380, Airbus created a hybrid category called ACS - Airbus Contracted Supplier. Basically Airbus creates a catalog and contracts with the supplier. The airline selects the item and pays for it, but Airbus manages the delivery and installation.

It would appear that for the 787, the problem is between American and Zodiac. Presumably American is either taking delivery of the unfinished aircraft and parking them, or paying a penalty to Boeing for delayed delivery which gets flowed through to Zodiac.

[Edited 2015-03-28 07:54:57]

robffm2 · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:40 pm

It might also be that AA just placed its order too late.

glbltrvlr · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:50 pm

After I posted above, I came across a whitepaper which goes into substantial detail of about SFE, BFE and ACS...

http://www.aircraftmonitor.com/uploa...of_aircraft_customization___v1.pdf

N1120A · Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:51 pm

Maybe they just wanted a little extra baking on the fuselage

glbltrvlr · Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
With the Boeing production delays to the 787 I would have expected a log jam of components like seats queuing up waiting for installation and not a poor supply chain further delaying in service dates.

There's no way a supplier is going to build seats ahead of the contracted delivery date. The cost of inventory and labor sitting in a warehouse would be massive. The component or seat contract would be tied to a production manufacturing milestone. The supplier would start X days prior to delivery to the OEM which floats based on the OEM manufacturing schedule. If the supplier assumes it will take them Y days to build the seats and it actually takes Y+100, they have a problem.

ripcordd · Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:33 pm

I think and not sure but AA had a patent on the 787 business class

N1120A · Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting ripcordd (Reply 8):

I think and not sure but AA had a patent on the 787 business class

Yes. AA's seat on the 787 and 772 are spec.

vv701 · Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:00 pm

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 3):

Thanks for your clear and detailed reply. It confirms what I thought the situation just might be.

This had never occurred to me until BA took delivery of their 77Ws. Starting in July 2010 they were all ferried PAE-CWL on delivery by Boeing. For that ferry flight they had no seats in either the F or J cabins. Each aircraft had these cabins furbished by British Airways Maintenance Cardiff over a period of two or three weeks - longer for the first aircraft delivered.

RayChuang · Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:06 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 10):
This had never occurred to me until BA took delivery of their 77Ws. Starting in July 2010 they were all ferried PAE-CWL on delivery by Boeing. For that ferry flight they had no seats in either the F or J cabins. Each aircraft had these cabins furbished by British Airways Maintenance Cardiff over a period of two or three weeks - longer for the first aircraft delivered.

A lot of airlines nowadays often install their own seats in new planes at their major maintenance facilities or at facilities away from the final assembly line for the plane. I believe that Airbus A380's often get their interiors outfitted at Airbus' Hamburg facility after the plane is completed and painted.

sunrisevalley · Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:41 pm

Zodiac had a one month strike at their Gainsville Fl. facility in October. Perhaps they have not been able to catch up .

yeogeo · Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:11 am

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 12):
Zodiac had a one month strike at their Gainsville Fl. facility in October. Perhaps they have not been able to catch up .

O.K., but All Things 787 presents the problems as affecting both Boeing and Airbus. Surely, a strike in Florida doesn't affect Airbus, though it certainly doesn't help Boeing.

yeo

sunrisevalley · Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 13):
O.K., but All Things 787 presents the problems as affecting both Boeing and Airbus. Surely, a strike in Florida doesn't affect Airbus, though it certainly doesn't help Boeing.

In the FWIW department they are said to have 2500 employee's in Fl.; 1000 in Mexico 400 in Ca. and 100 in China. and no doubt a number in Europe where they are owned. There are apparently six different business groups so the work force might be well spread out.

FrmrKSEngr · Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:04 am

There have been articles posted in trade magazines that Zodiac's 787 seats are running late for more than just AA.

hamster · Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:09 am

Why is it so hard to get seats? This seems like the epitome of lunacy. Aren't there more than one seat manufacturer? What about taking old seats from planes in the desert and refurbishing them? Why do these seats hold up the production of a hundred million dollar aircraft? if there is a shortage of seat makers why doesn't a company in the airline/aircraft business start manufacturing seats?

ripcordd · Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:58 am

Not only are they behind on the seats I have heard the ones on the 787 on the training flights are not holding up already without any passengers

N1120A · Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:57 am

Quoting hamster (Reply 16):
What about taking old seats from planes in the desert and refurbishing them?

Taking an old product and using it on new planes? Yeah, that makes lots of sense.

Quoting hamster (Reply 16):
Why do these seats hold up the production of a hundred million dollar aircraft? if there is a shortage of seat makers why doesn't a company in the airline/aircraft business start manufacturing seats?

The massive capital outlay? Safety testing? Certification? Its not like you just stick a recliner in a plane from your local Brookstone.

Quoting hamster (Reply 16):
Why is it so hard to get seats?

Every major long haul carrier has or is in the process of switching to lie flats, and a newer generation in particular. I'm sure AA could get B/E Diamonds quickly, but no one wants that seat anymore. As such, there is currently demand that is way outstripping supply.

NorthstarBoy · Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
Taking an old product and using it on new planes? Yeah, that makes lots of sense.

Wouldn't it make sense to install something in the planes to get them up and running in the short term, even if it's just for domestic crew training flights then, once more 787s are on property start rotating them into AFW to have the new interiors fitted. I was kind of wondering why AA didnt have Boeing install stock interiors into the planes to get them on the line, then, like i said, once the fleet has been built up and the backlog has been cleared, start rotating them in for interior replacements.

burnsie28 · Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 19):
Wouldn't it make sense to install something in the planes to get them up and running in the short term, even if it's just for domestic crew training flights then, once more 787s are on property start rotating them into AFW to have the new interiors fitted

You can't just do that, there are only certain seats that Boeing & Airbus allow that they will install. Each manufacturer has a "Catalog" and if the seat/seat manufacturer are not in that you can't install anything until after delivery. With that said Boeing won't deliver without the chosen seat because it all has to match paperwork and certification. Even if AA was somehow able to take delivery without seats and install some others (of which I doubt they have a ship set of extra seats laying around) they would need new paperwork and a new STC. This isn't exactly a quick process, it would take longer to do that then wait for Zodiac.

This isn't an issue with AA (other than they chose Zodiac). Zodiac is so far behind on their seat productions and there was even an article recently that talked about how Boeing and Airbus were possibly close to dropping them from being a Catalog supplier.

Aesma · Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:08 pm

In another thread (good news) about the MS-21 Zodiac is mentioned :

The Interior will feature furnishings from Zodiac Aerospace, coordinated from C&D Zodiac in Huntington Beach, California. The Water and Waste Systems of the aircraft will incorporate innovations from Zodiac Aerospace in Carson, California."

Here, bad news, Zodiac is "Plaisir, France-based". I'm pretty sure seats aren't made there.

Interesting.

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 13):
O.K., but All Things 787 presents the problems as affecting both Boeing and Airbus. Surely, a strike in Florida doesn't affect Airbus, though it certainly doesn't help Boeing.

Zodiac make seats (and cabins, and tons of other stuff), doesn't matter for which aircraft, in fact they make seats for any aircraft you can think of, and some cars and boats too. A plant in the US is probably building seats for airplanes sold to companies in the region, just like they have opened a new plant in China to make seats for Chinese airlines.

GSPSPOT · Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 1):
With the Boeing production delays to the 787 I would have expected a log jam of components like seats queuing up waiting for installation and not a poor supply chain further delaying in service dates.

My initial thought as well. WTH?

kanban · Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:11 pm

Seat problems rear their head every couple years.. sometimes due to strike impacts, sometimes component impacts from fabric to electronics. Other times it's a quality or certification issue. sometimes a line shuffle can mess things up or an airline suddenly changing the specs,. I recall a vendor had a batch of seat belt latches that were failing.. and a QA guy who strapped himself in an unsecured seat, threw himself forward to test the restraint and did a face plant on the floor with the seat on top.. (he wasn't pretty before that and definitely wasn't afterward).

If the delay is caused by a component shortage, it can very easily affect production at all that vendors seat plants

glbltrvlr · Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 22):
My initial thought as well. WTH?

See reply #7.

burnsie28 · Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
Here, bad news, Zodiac is "Plaisir, France-based". I'm pretty sure seats aren't made there.

The seats are made a few different places.

Quoting yeogeo (Reply 13):
O.K., but All Things 787 presents the problems as affecting both Boeing and Airbus. Surely, a strike in Florida doesn't affect Airbus, though it certainly doesn't help Boeing.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 12):
Zodiac had a one month strike at their Gainsville Fl. facility in October. Perhaps they have not been able to catch up .

It's not in Gainesville, FL, its in Gainesville, Texas.

AA’s #’s 3&4 788’s On Their Way To Mojave: Seats

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