User avatar
American 767
Topic Author
Posts: 4494
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:29 pm

As the previous thread got quite long I created Part 13 to continue the conversation.

We kindly ask that you remain respectful of everybody. This is a hot topic and things easily get heated.

May all the victims rest in peace.

Regards,
Ben Soriano

Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 12 (by jetblueguy22 Mar 27 2015 in Civil Aviation)
Ben Soriano
 
art
Posts: 3136
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 237 IN PREVIOUS THREAD):
Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 236):I believe, going forward, the two PEOPLE in the cockpit at any one time is the best response to this terrible tragedy.

That's only a partial solution.


If a minor change in procedure results in a major reduction in risk, it's worth implementing. While the ideal objective is (a) to prevent access to the cockpit by the unauthorised eg hijackers (b) to ensure access to the cockpit by the authorised eg pilots, it is stupid to pass up implementing interim partial solutions that are neither very disruptive nor expensive.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:43 pm

Quoting art (Reply 1):

Hence why I said a partial solution. Therefore I wasn't ruling out one solution or the other.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:47 pm

As I said, it's unacceptable that no pay during sick leave and risk of losing your job if you're sick because you're technically an employee in your own company, is becoming the norm. People who feel unfit feel that they are forced to go to work and this happens multiple times every day all over Europe. EU needs to do something.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:02 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
As I said, it's unacceptable that no pay during sick leave and risk of losing your job if you're sick because you're technically an employee in your own company, is becoming the norm. People who feel unfit feel that they are forced to go to work and this happens multiple times every day all over Europe. EU needs to do something.

And has nothing to do with that case.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 4):

I strongly disagree.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:34 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 5):
I strongly disagree.

The pilot faced none of the problems you described.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 6):

How do you know so early in the investigation?
And it doesn't mean that it's not going to be a contributing factor some day either way, because it's likely that it will.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:50 pm

He was a fulltime employee of Germanwings. That means the Company pays his salary when he is sick for 6 weeks afterwards the halth insurance will continue payment of a percentage.

It is mandatory for an employee to inform his employer when the doctoir has written the yellow sick leave documents, the document must ne sent to the employer within 3 days. The Pilot does not lose a single Cent except his daily allowance when flying.

The fact that he did not turn in the sick leave (something 99,9% of German employees cheerfully do) confirms that he was in fear to lose his licence because of his illness. Now, that is something that has to alert the lawmaker. Doctors must be explicitly authorized, more than they are already now, to inform the LBA immediatelywhen a Pilot Shows a mental disorder.
Data protction is a high value in Germany but data protection is wrong when it contributes to the death of 150 People. The LBA is a state agency and only the LBA can suspend a pilots licence. The Pilot still has the possibiloty to Appeal, to contribute to improve his health and stay in order to Keep his Job.

No one in this Country is forced to work when he/she is unable or unfit to do so.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1807
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
He was a fulltime employee of Germanwings.

It may be a translation issue, but the reports of the interview with his ex-girlfriend suggest that he was working on contract and was afraid of losing it.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:00 pm

A normal employer - employee contract.

But it is interesting that this is what is discussed. Other things she says like that he could be quite aggressive and could hide his mood very well before exploding are ignored.

[Edited 2015-03-28 08:02:05]
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5741
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:12 pm

Andreas Lubitz Sought Treatment for Vision Problems Before Germanwings Crash, Authorities Say

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/wo...gion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=1
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:15 pm

I've been lurking on this thread waiting to chime in, so here it goes. He never should have been hired in the first place. The fact that he completely drops out of training for a year due to depression is a HUGE red flag and frankly I think it's bordering on gross negligence for Lufthansa to have even hired this looney toon.

This guy is just flat out nuts and had no business being at the controls of an airliner. The most infuriating part for me as a pilot will be the knee-jerk reaction that comes out of this.

There's depressed and then there is bat sh*t crazy. This guy falls in the latter category.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:15 pm

That could explain something. Vision problems can end your flying career.
 
OMP777X
Posts: 453
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 8:10 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
It is mandatory for an employee to inform his employer when the doctoir has written the yellow sick leave documents, the document must ne sent to the employer within 3 days. The Pilot does not lose a single Cent except his daily allowance when flying.

The fact that he did not turn in the sick leave (something 99,9% of German employees cheerfully do) confirms that he was in fear to lose his licence because of his illness. Now, that is something that has to alert the lawmaker. Doctors must be explicitly authorized, more than they are already now, to inform the LBA immediatelywhen a Pilot Shows a mental disorder.
Data protc

Now the NYT is reporting that Lubitz had also been experiencing vision problems, which for a pilot is equally as damning. They said the problems may have been psychosomatic, but would certainly in my mind have prevented him from safely completing his duties as a pilot. How would it be a violation of his privacy for a doctor to follow up with LH to make sure he didn't report for duty after being issued a pass from work for such conditions? I'm aware that they operate on a system of trust and self reporting, but when we're talking about someone who can think or see clearly having control of a commercial jet, it seems that there would be a great need for some follow through on the part of the medical professionals.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/29...ash-authorities-say.html?referrer=

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:19 pm

As seahawk said, a normal employer - employee contract which guarantees an monthly base salary if you work or are out sick. Something some Ryanair pilots dream to have.
Even if he finally would have lost his licence for good, the Company would likely have offered him a Job. When I worked for a Company closer to that Topic I knew that pilots had "loss of licence" insurance, not sure of that still exsit but likely does, the insurance would likely have covered what he still owes the bank for the Pilot Training.
All These perks and social cushioring are part of the high costs of doing business in Germany. That makes one even more angry when an employer who contributes towards These costs with every woking salary he pays is betrayed by an employee in such a disgusting manner. Not telling the employer that he is declared sick and unfit to work by a doctor is betrayal, I am not speaking of what he did afterwards, there is no adequate expression for that.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
o0OOO0oChris
Posts: 103
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 10:27 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):

In my opinion, the Pilot was completely responsible for the situation he was in.

Lots of wannabe pilots get rejected because their physical condition is not good enough to become a pilot. A psychological issue can be hidden, which is what he did for years. He lied. His whole career was based on lies.
I can hardly imagine what it is like to be constantly in danger of being unmasked and rightfully loosing your job. In his condition of being mentally fragile, this tremendous stress is exacerbating his illness.
Under this circumstances, there is no way of healing his desease. If he would have been honest to himself and quit his dream of being a pilot, looking for a job which can tolerate his condition without putting lifes at risk, his condition would shurely have improved massively. He would have lived a much better live dropping out of his constant lying and the tremendous presure connected to it.

If you loose a leg, an arm or something else, in a lot of professions you will have to adapt and look for another job because you simply can't do it any more. I can't see why it makes a difference of being a pilot. If you can't do the job anymore, you have to quit and do something else. Especially after this event, it's absolutely clear that mental issues is a no-go for pilots as itr puts hundred's of lifes at risk.

As he was 27, he could have started a new, stressfree life in another profession easily. And that's what he should have done.
He made some very bad, very selfish decisions early in his career, and probably lied to himself, starting his misery at his own will. He is completely responsible for what has happend and I will consider him as being one of the biggest mass-murderes in german history.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 14):
Now the NYT is reporting that Lubitz had also been experiencing vision problems, which for a pilot is equally as damning. They said the problems may have been psychosomatic, but would certainly in my mind have prevented him from safely completing his duties as a pilot.

Added to that, going blind in itself increases the risk of depression and suicidal ideation:

http://www.bps.org.uk/news/are-blindness-and-depression-linked
 
Delta777Jet
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2000 6:19 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:31 pm

Probaby many things contributed to his action, may be thread of loss of license without having loss of license insurance ? May be if you work for LH directly you got a loss of license insurance and in Germanwings not ? What I don't understand is that the captain was working for LH mainline or he was also a Germanwings pilot ? Probably if he was an LH employee and the 4U guy had a huge salary and benefit difference ?

No matter what, the very low amount of hours he collected during his career within a low cost carrier is a proof that something was not okay with this man. Germanwings would have seen this for sure, because they pay his salary and must have wondered already that he is just flying 100 hours within 1.5 years and that this is not normal.

In Ryanair he would be already out of job long time ago when calling all the time sick.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 18289
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 8):
Data protction is a high value in Germany but data protection is wrong when it contributes to the death of 150 People. The LBA is a state agency and only the LBA can suspend a pilots licence. The Pilot still has the possibiloty to Appeal, to contribute to improve his health and stay in order to Keep his Job.

I fully agree. A pilot should not be able to hide impairment (either physical or mental) from their employer. If a doctor declares a pilot unfit for work, there must be some formal notification to the authorities - no specifics need to be divulged at this point, but a flag must be raised. The pilot can't have the last word on this and unilaterally decide to continue to fly hundreds of people around while unfit.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ual777
Posts: 1641
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting Delta777Jet (Reply 18):
Probaby many things contributed to his action, may be thread of loss of license without having loss of license insurance ? May be if you work for LH directly you got a loss of license insurance and in Germanwings not ? What I don't understand is that the captain was working for LH mainline or he was also a Germanwings pilot ? Probably if he was an LH employee and the 4U guy had a huge salary and benefit difference ?

No matter what, the very low amount of hours he collected during his career within a low cost carrier is a proof that something was not okay with this man. Germanwings would have seen this for sure, because they pay his salary and must have wondered already that he is just flying 100 hours within 1.5 years and that this is not normal.

In Ryanair he would be already out of job long time ago when calling all the time sick.

In the U.S. if you call out that much you will end up seeing a company doctor.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:38 pm

LH usually finds a way to use you if you lose your licence. If you would count all the people who never got a chance at a pilot career due to not meeting the health requirements, I feel little sympathy for this man. I would also have preferred being a pilot to an engineer, but a slight red/green vision weakness ended that dream.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9701
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:51 pm

Quoting o0OOO0oChris (Reply 16):

Of course he was. But in other cases it might be contributing to an accident that the employee(s) felt that they had to go to work even though they felt unfit.
 
lowbank
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:54 pm

Having suffered from a mental breakdown and knowing the thought processes that go on in your head. The one thing I should never allowed to be is an airline pilot.
NO person who has had a mental breakdown should be at the controls of an airliner.
Every days a school day.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 23):
NO person who has had a mental breakdown should be at the controls of an airliner.

And THAT is exactly the kind of principle that would make it MORE likely that someone suffering from a mental illness will be at the controls of airliner.

A lifetime ban on anyone who has a "mental breakdown" would place a huge disincentive on anyone to seek help or treatment. Depression is a treatable illness. What is needed is a culture that encourages disclosure and help-seeking, not one that discourages it.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1411
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:02 pm

I find it inconceivable that a 600 hour newbie is in the right seat in the first place. I have had several airline pilots in my family and they spent many years building hours just to get the job and, then, followed that with quiet a few years as FO before graduating to the left seat. One did it the hard way, moving from Flight Engineer to First Officer to Captain.

How did this change so drastically? It is a result of a pilot shortage and the unwillingness of airlines to cough up the bucks needed to hire experienced flight deck crew. What we get, as a result, is ab initio flight training and 600 hour First Officers. We also get relative unknowns moving into positions of responsibility where, previously, we had detailed knowledge born of years, if not decades, of experience with the makeup of the person in question. After a time, you are not only going to know the flying skills of an person but the small details that constitute a personality, command ability and stress tolerance. A chief pilot is going to know a whole lot about someone they have spent years training, testing and flying with before they ever move someone up the ladder or keep them on the payroll.

To throw that all away just to save a few bucks in payroll expense is silly beyond words.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 24):
And THAT is exactly the kind of principle that would make it MORE likely that someone suffering from a mental illness will be at the controls of airliner.

A lifetime ban on anyone who has a "mental breakdown" would place a huge disincentive on anyone to seek help or treatment. Depression is a treatable illness. What is needed is a culture that encourages disclosure and help-seeking, not one that discourages it.

It has always been the case that psychological problems jeopardize your career.
This is true in many jobs, not just pilots.

It is not a new idea or new policy.

If it is discouraging pilots from seeking treatment, then it has been doing so for a very long time already.
 
lowbank
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:10 pm

Sorry Lizzie,
But if you have not suffered from it you cannot understand how irrational you can be from one moment to the next. And it can return quickly . If flying an airliner makes you depressed you should never be at the controls.
As this man has proved,unfortunately.
Yes you can get better as I have and continue to work as I do, but surely not as a pilot.
Every days a school day.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:16 pm

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 27):
Sorry Lizzie,
But if you have not suffered from it you cannot understand how irrational you can be from one moment to the next. And it can return quickly . If flying an airliner makes you depressed you should never be at the controls.
As this man has proved,unfortunately.
Yes you can get better as I have and continue to work as I do, but surely not as a pilot.

Actually I have. It is also my field of study.

While I agree that "If flying an airliner makes you depressed you should never be at the controls", that is not the same as saying that anyone who has ever had an episode of clinical depression should never fly an aircraft.

Depression is treatable, and someone who has been successfully treated for depression is perfectly capable of flying an aircraft safely.

On the other hand, if it were the case that a single episode of clinical depression would end your flying career permanently, that would discourage anyone suffering from depression from seeking help. That would pose a far greater risk (and perhaps already has) than a policy that accepted that depression was a potentially treatable condition that, when treated, was not a bar to flying.

tbh, I don't think depression is a bar to flying anyway. Suicidal ideation is, though, and there are other things, in addition to depression, that can lead to suicidal ideation, including other mental illnesses and, indeed, conditions like vision-loss and tinnitus.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:18 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 26):
If it is discouraging pilots from seeking treatment, then it has been doing so for a very long time already.

Yes. There is still a huge stigma attached to mental illness.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 26):
If it is discouraging pilots from seeking treatment, then it has been doing so for a very long time already.

Yes it has. I can guarantee you that there are pilots flying around today who would benefit from seeing a mental health professional, but won't because of the huge hassle and expense that even a minor diagnosis will add to their next physical exam. It needs to change.

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 27):
But if you have not suffered from it you cannot understand how irrational you can be from one moment to the next. And it can return quickly . If flying an airliner makes you depressed you should never be at the controls.

She's not saying they should be at the controls while depressed. Rather, that they should be given the support they need to improve their condition, and then after things have resolved they can go back to flying.

If the act of flying makes you depressed, then that's a different story. But I'm pretty sure that this guy was depressed because of other stuff going on in his life and not his job.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:33 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 30):
Yes it has. I can guarantee you that there are pilots flying around today who would benefit from seeing a mental health professional, but won't because of the huge hassle and expense that even a minor diagnosis will add to their next physical exam. It needs to change.

Nothing will change it, imo. Mental illness will always be a stigma, and it will always jeopardize a career.

I don't know what the solution is to keeping potentially dangerously ill pilots out of the cockpit.

I think having two people in the cockpit is a good change of the dynamics.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 31):
Nothing will change it, imo. Mental illness will always be a stigma, and it will always jeopardize a career.

Well, some mental illnesses are of long duration, and yes, those will. But others respond to treatment, or resolve spontaneously. The more people understand that having had one episode of mental illness does not mean you are thenceforth incapable of returning to good mental health, then the more the stigma will reduce. And more openness should help also, as it has with the stigma attached to different sexual orientations. And yes, some medical conditions, including mental conditions, will sometimes mean the end of a career, because they are simply incompatible with the job.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 31):
I don't know what the solution is to keeping potentially dangerously ill pilots out of the cockpit.

There may not be one. Human beings are complex machines, and sometimes they go wrong, just as aircraft do   But a climate of support regarding medical issues, combined with a clear duty of disclosure would help.

Quote:
think having two people in the cockpit is a good change of the dynamics.

Sounds sensible to me. But then I'm not a terrorist. For all I know it might be a neat opportunity to take over a plane.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 32):
For all I know it might be a neat opportunity to take over a plane.

But now you will need at least two bad people, and one of them has to be just the right person. The person who takes the place of the pilot.

Without 2 bad people, you should at least have a fight in the cockpit for control, between the bad person and the good person, rather than just being locked outside to await your maker, with no chance at all.


I do think it should technically be possible to unlock the door remotely, though. A phone call to the airline with proper ID could generate either a signal to remotely unlock the door, or they could give over the phone a second keypad "KING" code that will unlock the door.

Of course, there must be a working phone in the passenger cabin.
 
lowbank
Posts: 511
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:10 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 4:59 pm

I have been really open about my episode of mental illness at work and that has led to several people seeking me out to ask for help and advice.
What surprises me is how many people I work with who have had episode's of mental illness.
In our office of 20 odd people 5 have had an episode due to work pressures.

Surely that a high percentage Lizzie
Every days a school day.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 31):
Nothing will change it, imo.

Education will change it. The people who have sought help and received it know that it's not a permanent liability and that it does help people get back to where they should be. That knowledge is not impossible to communicate - already broader society, at least in the US, is more accepting of it. It just hasn't really made inroads into the aviation community yet. But that will eventually change.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 14):

Now the NYT is reporting that Lubitz had also been experiencing vision problems, which for a pilot is equally as damning. They said the problems may have been psychosomatic, but would certainly in my mind have prevented him from safely completing his duties as a pilot. How would it be a violation of his privacy for a doctor to follow up with LH to make sure he didn't report for duty after being

The Company has no right to know the illness. I once, many years ago, questioned the corrctness of a doctor's "yellow slip", giving a lower paid employee 2 weeks off. The doctor almost sued me, although my assumption was right.
In this case, LH still would not have had a right to know the reason, but if the doctor knows the Profession of the man, that he's a Pilot, he must notify the LBA (FAA equiv) who are the only ones that can suspend the licence.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 20):

In the U.S. if you call out that much you will end up seeing a company doctor.


At the end of the day here as well, but you can happily go through a year with full pay if you have 3 different types of sickness each giving you 6 weeks off plus 6 weeks Holiday , you work half a year for a full year's pay.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting Lowbank (Reply 34):
In our office of 20 odd people 5 have had an episode due to work pressures.

Surely that a high percentage Lizzie

Yes, lifetime prevalence of an episode of clinical depression is high. That's exactly why I think an automatic liftetime ban on flying if you have one episode would be disastrous, especially in a pressured job like flying an aircraft!

Treatment (and monitoring, and support) would be much better than a ban.
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 33):
But now you will need at least two bad people, and one of them has to be just the right person. The person who takes the place of the pilot.

Not if the incoming bad person kills the good person.

I'm not saying it's a greater risk than not having the rule - it's just that most protocols to prevent one type of incident can end up facilitating another, as happened here.

People are just too damn clever for even the cleverest systems to foil  
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
Education will change it. The people who have sought help and received it know that it's not a permanent liability and that it does help people get back to where they should be. That knowledge is not impossible to communicate - already broader society, at least in the US, is more accepting of it. It just hasn't really made inroads into the aviation community yet. But that will eventually change.

-Mir

Let's be honest.

How many people would get off the plane if they found out the pilot had a history of psychological problems?

Or if they found out the pilot had been treated for severe depression for 18 months?

Or if they knew that his records recommended regular psychological evaluations?

Or if they knew that his mental struggles had resulted in psychosomatic vision problems?

Etc.

I think if we are honest, we know that people would indeed refuse to fly.
 
LTC8K6
Posts: 1538
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:36 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting Lizzie (Reply 38):
Not if the incoming bad person kills the good person.

I covered that. Fight in the cockpit for control.

It is bizarre to me that Lufthansa has no right to know the medical history of it's pilots.
Or that it can somehow be concealed from Lufthansa legally.

Also, if I knew an airline pilot that woke up screaming, "We're going down!", and made comments about everyone knowing his name, I think I'd report it to the airline or the police.
 
cat3appr50
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:12 pm

IMO there’s no way an individual with only 630 hours (in the USA it’s 1500 Hours requirement) should be in the left seat and only one Captain issue away from being responsible for the overall flight. Over the 19 month period since entering the A320 FO position Lubitz had an overall average of only 8 hours per week (block to block) flying time. The Industry average is around 20 hrs./week. I don’t see how he could have maintained adequate proficiency with only 8 hours per week overall average. And what’s being reported regarding past conversations with his girlfriend is that he perceived this FO position as unusually personally stressful and which likely augmented his already serious mental health issues (not surprising if not prepared for the responsibility due to insufficient experience, i.e. flying time, for the position).

And given the 8 hours/week average, I suspect a contributing factor to that low time flying may have been serious mental health issues that created absences (should have been red flags) during this 19 month period. And by serious I don’t mean depression. Depression may lead to personal suicide, but typically not purposeful mass murder. There was certainly some mental health issue going on with this individual far more extreme than depression (or eyesight issues) that drove him to purposely murder 149 good and innocent people (including children) by purposely crashing an aircraft straight into the side of a mountain at around 380 Knots TAS (around 440 mph).
 
Lizzie
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:18 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 40):

I covered that. Fight in the cockpit for control.

Yeah, I managed to miss that, sorry! Yes, I guess a fight would ensue under most scenarios.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:16 pm

How would People know hat? I trust that the Airline employs only People who are fit to fly.
Vision Problems can be repeiared, with glasses or operations , depending what Kind they are. true, he may not be able to fly in some cases, but the Company will find a Job for him where he can use at least some of his Pilot knowledge.
He would not have been the first Pilot to lose his licence. LH is not some loc cost carrier that fires People when they have no use for them.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
bueb0g
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:57 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 25):
I find it inconceivable that a 600 hour newbie is in the right seat in the first place. I have had several airline pilots in my family and they spent many years building hours just to get the job and, then, followed that with quiet a few years as FO before graduating to the left seat. One did it the hard way, moving from Flight Engineer to First Officer to Captain... To throw that all away just to save a few bucks in payroll expense is silly beyond words.

You have no idea what you're talking about. This is always the way it has been in Europe, indeed anywhere apart from the US. Major world airlines regularly hire pilots with 200 hrs. European training is more difficult and far more geared towards airliner flying than US training is.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3614
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting cat3appr50 (Reply 41):

IMO there’s no way an individual with only 630 hours (in the USA it’s 1500 Hours requirement) should be in the left seat and only one Captain issue away from being responsible for the overall flight.

It's not the amount of hours that matters, quality of training does. European airlines are just as safe as US ones despite lower amount of hours being required. Mental health issues can develop to more experienced pilots too.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
jreuschl
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:04 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:20 pm

Is there a varied pay scale for a 4U pilot vs. a LH pilot? Would a newer pilot be more likely to fly on 4H vs LH?
 
User avatar
speedbird707
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
He would not have been the first Pilot to lose his licence. LH is not some loc cost carrier that fires People when they have no use for them.

While your statement is true, if he was so driven to be a pilot and this was his dream, the thought of loosing that dream could be a culminating event that creates a pyschological response...We will never know what was in his head.
Even the final report will be based on assumptions.

On another point earlier...can a doctor not cause the suspension of the pilots license. In Canada, the doctors certainly can cause the suspension of a drivers license for certain conditions...it would make sense to have a reporting process for pilots too.
 
User avatar
lugie
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:11 pm

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 46):
Would a newer pilot be more likely to fly on 4H vs LH?

A young pilot would at the moment be a lot more likely to get employed at 4U / EW rather than legacy LH and iirc salaries are different, too, which is one of the reasons pilot unions are against the LH restructuring program
Q400 E175 E190 CRJ7 CRJ9 CRJX MD88 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A359 B733 B73G B738 B739 B748 B764 B772 B77W B788 B789
FRA STR HAM TXL MUC ZRH ACE BRU BLL DUB MAN ARN MAD OPO LIS FNC AMS PHL RDU LGA CLT EWR ORD ATL SFO MDW IAD YYZ SJO PTY
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 46):
Is there a varied pay scale for a 4U pilot vs. a LH pilot? Would a newer pilot be more likely to fly on 4H vs LH?

Yes LH pilots make more money, but 4U pilots make more money than Eurowings, Cityline, Tui and Condor. (probably AB too for new pilots) If he went through LH flight training (which I am not sure he did) he would be offered a job within the company - most often today it is Cityline or Eurowings.

If he did not go through LH training, he obviously applied for a job at 4U and was hired.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos