tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 8:40 am

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 92):

The two person concept isn't a fair fight the attacker whoever it is of the two has the advantage of surprise as the defender doesn't know they are about to be attacked nor are they expecting a co-worker to do such a thing.

Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 94):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ed-attempts-coax-pilot-toilet.html
This was clearly a deliberately planned event.
Quoting LTC8K6 (Reply 95):
What a guy to have as a pilot.

I'd just ignore personal details of a mass murderer. The malicious actor wanted to make a name known and I don't think anyone should respect that idea (To date I don't remember the name as I just ignore it, people such as this don't deserve to be remembered, we can definitely learn from the case but just scrub his identity). Call it a malicious flight deck lock down and a long existing defective door controller as one of the primary failures. (Obviously slap the bad actor with mass murder too)

The "change the industry" was probably intending for the upheaval in the industry to be exactly what the media and people here are doing. Talking about mental health issues, increased scrutiny, drugs, and so on and so forth, breakdown of trust in general (He is trying to get back at all the pilot/crew/doctors/company basically). Instead of focusing on the mass murderer just focus on the people who died without any chance at fighting for their own lives because of that door. Trust in random individuals is always misplaced but trust in the crew as a group is not misplaced the captain and cabin crew tried everything to save their flight to no avail as the CVR transcript reveals.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 97):
Can we please have you create a new thread on this? I don't have to read it if I don't want to, but I have no choice here while I wade through looking for details of the Germanwings tragedy.
...
A male friend of my step-mom was dealing with depression back in the 70's. They put him on some meds and he told her that they made him feel weird. Shortly thereafter, he shot his wife then killed himself.
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 98):
I have pointed this out one or two parts back. Unfortunately it has reached the stage of flooding, which is against the policies here.

Please refer the policy as I've read it and do not see which policy you are referring too. If the policy dictates I will follow it. Posts are only made to the best of my ability in topics where the issue is relevant and I do not copy and paste the same reply over and over again which is what flooding would imply.

If your talking about, "please do not repeat questions and scenarios that has been covered and discussed in previous threads and which do not contribute or apply, in a constructive manner, towards this conversation any longer." Note that I do not simply repeat the same statement over and over it is written to apply to a reply in a constructive manner towards the current conversation. If you did read what I was posting the idea has evolved because of the input provided as it isn't a static drumbeat.

Is it against policies to talk about what is the major enabler of the crash? The mental health issues are far more speculative then any talk about the plane design.

I'm sorry if any responses are disagreeable or appear repetitive and if anything is appears as a repeat it is only in response to people themselves repeating. The door is a major detail of the Germanwings tragedy and it is a matter of opinion. Should people talking about the mental health issues move somewhere else too, because one could say the same thing that this thread is flooded with speculative and repeats of the same things of which I don't mind.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 99):
No System is fail safe and fool proof, whistle blowing, reporting, 2 Person Cockpit, whatever. His former girl friend will not be a happy Person for a Long time. She will likely blame herself for not warning the Company. OTH, this tragic Happening will likely lead that others who have similar experiences will do exactly that.

No system is completely fail safe or fool proof, you can make them more fail safe/fool proof especially if it is a technical system design.

Of the potential fixes, Whistle blowing already exists, Reporting already exists, 2 Person cockpit makes no difference or worse, and so on. Making these things amplified by some means would just catch good pilots and or stress borderline pilots to either get sidelined unjustly or drive them to snap and cause another crash.

Watching too much Mayday or Air Crash Investigations especially certain episodes, fired. Have any sign of stress, fired. Have a relationship problem get falsely accused of being unstable, fired. Read too much airliner.net forums about air crash speculation, fired. Have a nightmare, fired. Have a home flight sim setup, fired.

Do we bench pilots when they have a bad dream? We are talking thought crimes ...

If your asking anyone related to pilots to report them because of any remote chance of instability your just going to make a positive feedback loop of suspicion leading to masking leading to more suspicion and masking till something snaps. No pilot can complain about working conditions, hours, wages, or anything because those are "risk" words...

[Edited 2015-03-29 02:11:13]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 9:13 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 100):

Talking about making a more secure door is, to me, a side topic that not only interferes with the ongoing discussion of this specific tragedy but actually deserves it's own thread that can provide a clearer discussion.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not clear why you wouldn't want to respectfully take that dialogue to a new thread?

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
jdevora
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:12 am

Hi,

I was wondering if breaking a cabin window would be a practical solution...

My understanding is that when de-pressurization happens the door gets unlocked... but can you "safely" de-pressurize an airplane?


Cheers
JD
 
glockster
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:16 am

I have a question. (please excuse if asked before - I am new to this Forum / first Post)
As the CPT tried to get trough the Cockpitdoor - Is actually the whole Cockpitwall armoured or only the Cockpit door? Might it has been a way to use the axe on Board to hack trough the Sandwichwall in the Lavatory or behind the Galley to get into the Cockpit?
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting jdevora (Reply 103):

From what I gather it only unlocks when the differential pressure from the cockpit to the cabin is such that the cockpit window is broken and the pressure drops rapidly in there but not as rapidly in the passenger cabin. If you broke a cabin window then the pressure across the door would be such that the cockpit pressure is higher than the passenger cabin pressure and the door would remain locked.

Quoting glockster (Reply 104):

As the CPT tried to get trough the Cockpitdoor - Is actually the whole Cockpitwall armoured or only the Cockpit door? Might it has been a way to use the axe on Board to hack trough the Sandwichwall in the Lavatory or behind the Galley to get into the Cockpit?

The amount of metal/structure around the cockpit door makes those surfaces more difficult to penetrate let alone get into the cockpit as a person.

[Edited 2015-03-29 03:21:55]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:23 am

Quoting glockster (Reply 104):
As the CPT tried to get trough the Cockpitdoor - Is actually the whole Cockpitwall armoured or only the Cockpit door? Might it has been a way to use the axe on Board to hack trough the Sandwichwall in the Lavatory or behind the Galley to get into the Cockpit?

If you go through the galley on the A320 series, you'll also have to go through all the galley plumbing and then a main electrical distribution panel. On the other side you'd have lavatory plumbing and electrics and then a storage cabinet.

Jan
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ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:30 am

Changing the cockpit door security systems could lead to even more unintended problems as others have noted. Other ideas like a separate toilet for the cockpit crew or special override cards with cabin crew members would also have their potential practical, mx and security issues as well as money costs many airlines are loath to spend on.

For the foreseeable future, the mandate of a 2nd person at all times in the cockpit seems to be best balance of safety and costs.
 
glockster
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 106):
If you go through the galley on the A320 series, you'll also have to go through all the galley plumbing and then a main electrical distribution panel. On the other side you'd have lavatory plumbing and electrics and then a storage cabinet.

Hey Jan
THX for the quick response. Well it sound like some work but not impossible. Better than not getting into the Cockpit at all. A Plumbing or an electric Panel is nothing you can't get trough if you want to. Even if you hit a vital elec sys - target is to get fast in control anyway. I mean if your life deppends on it - it might be worth a trial, isn't is?

Andreas
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 107):
Changing the cockpit door security systems could lead to even more unintended problems as others have noted. Other ideas like a separate toilet for the cockpit crew or special override cards with cabin crew members would also have their potential practical, mx and security issues as well as money costs many airlines are loath to spend on.

For the foreseeable future, the mandate of a 2nd person at all times in the cockpit seems to be best balance of safety and costs.

The cockpit door security systems where changed it is at "phase 2" door locking logic and improvements can be made with just replacing the pin controller and updating the software on the door control unit (both are easy to access and not complex instruments). Having an override system is many orders of magnitude cheaper and more functional than a separate toilet or double door. (The added weight is basically zero) The two person system has its own unintended consequences and non-solving of the actual problem. (second member won't have the same rigour in checks unless you put three pilots on every flight and either could be the attacker with the element of surprise on their side)

Unintended problems are problems not considered for and every one mentioned for the override mechanism I've previously described covers them. If you have any new ones then ask away.

Quoting glockster (Reply 108):

Well it sound like some work but not impossible. Better than not getting into the Cockpit at all. A Plumbing or an electric Panel is nothing you can't get trough if you want to. Even if you hit a vital elec sys - target is to get fast in control anyway. I mean if your life deppends on it - it might be worth a trial, isn't is?

You would not be able to get into the cockpit without hacking away a ton of metal assuming you can even do this with just an axe it would take far too long to do so. You'll get electrocuted or start a fire when you try and hack at an electrical panel. If you can hack through all that then you could easily hack through the door it isn't remotely has strong as the walls around it. Hence why they upgraded the anchoring system to make the frame of the door more well attached to the surrounding structure.

[Edited 2015-03-29 03:47:39]
 
glockster
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:01 am

ok, thx for the info guys
 
zanl188
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:04 am

A couple of points:

- Blaming secured doors for this is a misnomer. Might just as well blame lack of flight engineers, navigators, and radio operators.

- If a pilot wants to commit suicide by plane, there is very little that can be done to prevent it...
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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scbriml
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 97):
Can we please have you create a new thread on this? I don't have to read it if I don't want to, but I have no choice here while I wade through looking for details of the Germanwings tragedy.

x 2   
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 111):

- If a pilot wants to commit suicide by plane, there is very little that can be done to prevent it...

Bingo. He could as well have made a sudden large control input just after lift off or 100 feet above ground on approach. In both cases there would be no way to recover the aircraft.
As one pilot friend said, the 9/11 terrorists used force to get into the cockpit. The pilot is already there.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 112):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 97):
Can we please have you create a new thread on this? I don't have to read it if I don't want to, but I have no choice here while I wade through looking for details of the Germanwings tragedy.

x 2

x 3
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rolfen
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:43 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 111):
- If a pilot wants to commit suicide by plane, there is very little that can be done to prevent it...

Outside removing pilots from the cockpit altogether.
I agree with what you said, it is my perspective as well.
However it should not stop people from trying. Sometimes it can make a difference.
rolf
 
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:52 pm

Actually, a nice, friendly female CA in the cockpit for a chat while the captain has his wizz might have made a difference, if it was just by giving him company and a friendly face to talk to.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 12:58 pm

I don't know if it has already been covered. The magazine EMMA - founded by the feminist Alice Schwarzer has republished a blog post saying that the Germanwings accident was an act of men-on-women violence, as 94% of pilots were male, and "most victims" female, as shown by the 16 pupils (14 of whom were female) and their two female teachers. 
Quoting namezero111111 (Reply 56):
1500 vs 600 vs 10 hours is moot.

Yes, as Lufthansa has a pilot cadet program where one is, from his first day, trained to be a 320 pilot.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 97):
Can we please have you create a new thread on this? I don't have to read it if I don't want to, but I have no choice here while I wade through looking for details of the Germanwings tragedy.

x4

Anybody in this thread who has both money and a 320 probably has already bought a safe cockpit door from tomlee, so I really beg him to stop his sales pitch in this thread. I come here to follow up on new things concerning this accident.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:29 pm

I'd like some more info about how to enter the cockpit from the sides. I don't think it poses a risk to discuss it as it would surely need minutes of work so in case a terrorist does it, I expect passengers to react.

I already mentioned this in a previous thread by I remember a poster saying he knew a way to unlock the door by going through a sidewall. Now this was I think about the hijacked Ethiopian Airlines Flight 702, so a 767 not an A320, can someone knowing the 767 confirm it's possible ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
namezero111111
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 118):

I think this discussion is academic at best, because, while possible to hack through the wall/electrical panels/plumbing/etc in theory, it would just cause the evildoer to accelerate his evil doing if they feel like they're running out of time.

It's analogous to why you install an alarm sensor on your windows and doors, but not on the walls, as you don't expect someone to enter your house through there (even though they could, in theory ram a truck through (even if it's brick/concrete).

You secure the weakest point of entry.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:47 pm

Is there any truth to mechanical overdrive to open the doors?
Edit: there is, but not from the cabin.

[Edited 2015-03-29 06:52:14]
 
capri
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 1:52 pm

 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:06 pm

From the link mentioned above:

Quote:
Germanwings killer Andreas Lubitz 'trawled internet for suicide and sexual perversion websites'

How will they know which websides Lubitz visited? I call this statement BS, unless there exists an illegal system for the German government to watch internet usage.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Aesma
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:09 pm

It's called browser history. They have his computer(s).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:29 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 111):
- Blaming secured doors for this is a misnomer. Might just as well blame lack of flight engineers, navigators, and radio operators.

- If a pilot wants to commit suicide by plane, there is very little that can be done to prevent it...

How exactly is it a misnomer, the door would not open for the captain by its design.

If anyone on the secure side wants to commit suicide by plane they not only have very little that can be done to prevent it they can have hours to do anything they want with impunity. It affords the actor minutes to hours to achieve whatever their goal is.

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 113):
Bingo. He could as well have made a sudden large control input just after lift off or 100 feet above ground on approach. In both cases there would be no way to recover the aircraft.
As one pilot friend said, the 9/11 terrorists used force to get into the cockpit. The pilot is already there.

This again ignores the fact that not all suicidal attacks occur in the form of nose diving. I believe it was suggested many times already that because you could nosedive you should just give up trying to stop people which doesn't make any sense because not only can they currently nose dive they can pick where they nose dive and when.

Quoting rolfen (Reply 115):
Outside removing pilots from the cockpit altogether.
I agree with what you said, it is my perspective as well.
However it should not stop people from trying. Sometimes it can make a difference.

This removing pilots as the only thing is a false dilemma basically. Allowing cabin crew with a locked out captain to open the door prevents this incident and the possibility of any others that require minutes to complete. Obviously if a pilot wants to crash they can instantly cause one at critical phases of flight but as it stands now they don't just have "instant" they have far longer.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 117):
Anybody in this thread who has both money and a 320 probably has already bought a safe cockpit door from tomlee, so I really beg him to stop his sales pitch in this thread. I come here to follow up on new things concerning this accident.

I don't think describing an entire system and saying it is free for anyone to implement or use is a marketing pitch. Typically you don't sell things buy sending the person the details of how to make something and saying you can do whatever you want and no payment is required, open-sourcing a design basically. Just because you think it is irrelevant is just a matter of opinion.
 
rcair1
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 101):
Talking about making a more secure door is, to me, a side topic that not only interferes with the ongoing discussion of this specific tragedy but actually deserves it's own thread that can provide a clearer discussion.

I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not clear why you wouldn't want to respectfully take that dialogue to a new thread?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 112):
x 2   
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 114):
x 3
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 117):
x4

If your point is that you want to have a good technical discussion on the aspects of tomlee's ideas, I would support that.

If you are trying to shut down that part of this discussion - then I disagree.

There are several key components to this event - all legally 'alleged' at this point - though I don't question the accuracy.
- The FO's apparent issues with health- both depression and vision (perhaps a result of medications for depression?)
- The fact that a Dr cannot notify the airline about a potentially suicidal patient - if he/she even considered that or knew about the pilot's job.
- The fact that post 9/11 cockpit security prevented the CA or crew from accessing the cockpit in time.

All of these are within the scope of this discussion. Perhaps they warrant a focused discussion of their own, but that does not mean they cannot be address here - IMO.

Regarding tomlee's ideas.
I do think there is an issue with the approach being used today. That does not mean we abandon it, but we should certainly consider improving it.
- Aircraft crash investigations often look at very rare events and how we prevent them. If AAIB or NTSB or whatever the local investigation board is were to ignore an identified fault because it was 'extremely rare' then air safety would not be where it is today.
- We've heard several people make suggestions on what to do. 2 in the cockpit is the most obvious one and easiest to implement. Is it perfect - certainly not - but none are. Is it possible it would have prevented this event - we don't know - and we never will at this point.
- As an engineer - I find tomlee's proposal worthy of consideration.
- It is simple and relies on current technology.
- It is secure in that any of the cabin crew can deny it.
- But essentially puts 'multiple crew members' in the cockpit. Better than the 2 in the cockpit approach.

Would if have worked here. I don't know. It could have
- Caused the FO to take actions that would caused an immediate crash or prevented the cabin crew from physically being able to act.
- Caused the FO to not even try because he knew that the cabin crew/CA could get in.

Is it worthy of discussion - yes.
rcair1
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 123):
It's called browser history. They have his computer(s).

No source in the article for this (and other) information.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
zanl188
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 124):
How exactly is it a misnomer, the door would not open for the captain by its design.

Because by the logic that blames the cockpit door for this, many other things could also be blamed such as the lack of additional flight deck crew. Even if there were five crew on the flight deck, or numerous door override schemes, one pilot could still commit suicide by simply diving into the ground on final approach (amongst other things)
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 127):

You mean the lack of crew in general from being able to get to in when they really should be let in?

Can you logically justify having 5 people in the cockpit at all times when the plane already had on the other side of the door. The issue at hand isn't just an attempt to sabotage a critical phase of flight, which is not what happened, it is a deliberate and minutes long descent into the side of a mountain. Preventing this window of opportunity from existing is why the door can be blamed.

By forcing this to occur at very critical phases of flight (typically very close the ground where both air speed and altitude are at their lowest) you can actually have a chance even if slim of surviving the crash and can pick your spot to be right where the airport is instead of a remote area or middle of the ocean most airports are already designed and trained to deal with crashes on takeoff/landing and response times would be orders of magnitude faster. (Compared to going from cruising altitude into a side of a mountain of which has a zero chance of survival due to the disintegration of everyone and everything on-board)

Also to minimize future clutter I will post the technical details in a thread on tech/ops when I have the time to write something longer. I will still post about relevant details here in a more concise manner when the need arises such as people suggesting the door is not somehow part of chain of events which enabled this crash to occur.

[Edited 2015-03-29 07:57:40]

[Edited 2015-03-29 08:13:14]
 
Skydrol
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 2:58 pm

The web site linked below brings insight to the often avoided and rarely discussed topic of hundreds of suicides, depression, suicide attempt survivor's comments, friend's and family's comments of victim's personality changes etc. What is almost unanimous are comments from survivors about changing their mind at the last instant, right before hitting the water... you could only imagine if many of those that perished thought the same... how about Germanwings FO Lubitz? Only the FDR will know, but a point is reached where the laws of physics (and gravity) overrule a last instant change of mind.

Marriage failures, relationship failures, financial problems, sense of worthlessness, these all seem to be a common theme leading to depression, which leads to the ultimate action. And do you think anyone jumping from the bridge checks first to make sure they won't drop in on, and kill a family out for a day of boating 200 feet below? Of course not. These are already people in an irrational state. Scary to consider they were driving an automobile to get to the center of the bridge span.

Suicide jump survivor's account: http://www.skywaybridge.com/images/papers/010530.jpg

Suicide jump survivor, succeeds 2nd time: http://www.skywaybridge.com/2013.htm#130510

Suicide jump survivor, right after jumping: ''I knew this was a bad idea.'' Right before hitting the water: ''I wanted to live as soon as I tried to die.''

"People sometimes think that to jump off a bridge in a beautiful place is a more beautiful way to die. It's a lie. You feel for a moment like you're floating. That moment ends. Then you're falling, survivors say, and then you're accelerating, and before you can think about how fast you're accelerating you crash into the water. You don't splash. You crash."


This stuff is psychologically heavy, but open and honest comments from some of the small fraction of jump survivors, really drives home depression and mental illnesses are serious, and often hidden from friends and family for long periods of time until the final 'breaking point'.





LD4
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zanl188
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 128):
You mean the lack of crew in general from being able to get to in when they really should be let in?

I said very plainly flight deck crew.

A pilot planning a suicide by plane can plan for weeks or months before acting. Then, at a moment of his/her choosing, simply dive the plane into the ground. It could happen so suddenly there would be nothing other crew could do. All you would hear on the CVR is "Mom I love you", "Or God Is Great" etc and a "What are you doing?" and it's all over but the investigation.

Enabling the cabin crew to override the door only encourages someone to attempt to coerce cabin crew into doing so.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 130):
I said very plainly flight deck crew.

The two person system doesn't include only flight crew. So yeah, unless you want to have three qualified pilots on all flights which is not going to happen due to the large not insignificant costs involved.

A pilot/anyone with access planning a suicide by plane can plan for weeks and months before acting at the moment of their choosing they can dive the plane into any target they want due to the minutes and hours they have provided by the secured door logic. They can pick any ocean in range, any mountain, any city they want. They have total freedom not just in critical phases of flight.

They could pick a big office tower and just use the minutes they have before anyone can react on the ground to achieve their goal whatever it may be. Could be for revenge, suicide, extremism.

Suddenly does not appear to be the seconds you claim it to be. Allowing the cabin crew to override the door as a group is entirely for prevention of attempts to coerce the crew as a group to give in (In addition to measures which make it impossible to determine which persons have the keys needed or how many keys are even needed for that matter or that the key will even work when used). Even if one person gives up you hope/trust the group for someone to do the right thing. With the growing awareness amongst passengers in general they too would serve to back up their cabin crew when attacked by a few malicious passengers. Trust in groups basically.
 
rcair1
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 3:28 pm

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 130):
A pilot planning a suicide by plane can plan for weeks or months before acting.

Or not.

Quoting zanl188 (Reply 130):
Enabling the cabin crew to override the door only encourages someone to attempt to coerce cabin crew into doing so.

Which is why you build in safeguards to prevent that.
What we have now is the ability of a single person to control access to the cockpit rather than the collective ability of several. I think the later is wiser than the former. Is it perfect - of course not. Little is.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 129):
The web site linked below brings insight to the often avoided and rarely discussed topic of hundreds of suicides, depression, suicide attempt survivor's comments, friend's and family's comments of victim's personality changes etc. What is almost unanimous are comments from survivors about changing their mind at the last instant, right before hitting the water... you could only imagine if many of those that perished thought the same... how about Germanwings FO Lubitz? Only the FDR will know, but a point is reached where the laws of physics (and gravity) overrule a last instant change of mind.

Thanks for this Skydrol. It is interesting reading.

As a Firefighter - I've been to more suicides and suicidal patients than I would like to remember. As Fire Chief, I often delegate the actual task of verifying suicide to myself, if possible, because I've dealt with it and I know I can manage it. That is not always true - the suicide rate in fire fighters is higher than average. I also have to watch my crew very carefully. We had a recent suicide where one of my younger crew members was struggling for days.

What I have been taught, and observed, is that
- When women state they are going to kill themselves - they typically are calling for help and we will find them alive.
- With men - the opposite. If they say they are going to kill themselves - listen to them (well - listen to women as well), but in the case of men - they tend to say it and do it. Or they just go do it with no warning. And they usually succeed.

In fact, as I sit here, in 28 yrs of responding I cannot recall going to a female suicide though I've been to "suicidal" calls. The vast majority of male suicides I've responded to were successful.

I'm actually finding this discussion a bit difficult.... time to go be with people rather than sitting here at the computer...
rcair1
 
zanl188
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 131):
A pilot/anyone with access planning a suicide by plane can plan for weeks and months before acting at the moment of their choosing they can dive the plane into any target they want due to the minutes and hours they have provided by the secured door logic. They can pick any ocean in range, any mountain, any city they want. They have total freedom not just in critical phases of flight.

Denying a pilot planning suicide by plane those extra minutes accomplishes what exactly? He/she will simply crash the plane in another manner which precludes any action by other crew members
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
2175301
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 131):

I respect that you have come up a relatively easy technical solution to implement. Please consider that while you have proposed a theoretically workable technical solution; that the base problem itself is not technical.

The base problem is "human relations" based; and technical solutions have proven to be horrendous in their ability to solve human based problems. It is precisely because engineers and scientist tried to apply technical solutions to human based issues that the respect for engineers and scientist declined so much from 50-75 years ago.

In reality, the 2nd person in the cockpit - regardless of qualifications - is a human based solution; which is the right approach in how you solve human based problems.

It gives the person with a human based problem another human to talk to. That in itself forces a change. As for the concept that the other person needs to be able to win a fight. Extremely unlikely there would be a fight. If it even looked like a fight might develop all the 2nd person has to do is open the door and if needed scream for help. I assure you that there are people in the front of the aircraft who would jump to help.

In the end there are no perfect solutions for every problem. Humans are ultimately fallible and so are technical systems and parts. But, I suspect that just having a 2nd person in the cockpit eliminates at least 80% of these kinds of crashes; without creating any other risks (and your technical solution has other risks that have to be accounted for).

By the way; I am an engineer who works in the nuclear power industry. The biggest problem in nuclear power is human based and not technical. Just like aircraft there have been many decades of technical improvements. Most of the biggest events in the last 40 years have been traced to human factors (even if the decisions were made decades earlier not to design for a known on average 90 year event); and the biggest gains in event response have come from dealing with and addressing human factors.


Have a great day,

Perry
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:07 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 125):
If your point is that you want to have a good technical discussion on the aspects of tomlee's ideas, I would support that.

If you are trying to shut down that part of this discussion - then I disagree.

I really want such a thing have discussed in a separate thread,

Quoting tomlee (Reply 124):
is a marketing pitch.

The irony was lost on you. Sorry.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:08 pm

Isn't it time we stop calling this depression? It was obviously more than that, at minimum a misdiagnosis (the shrinking profession diagnosis depression far too often when more serious issues exist), or at worst a diagnosis psychosis that should have prevented him from flying but due to false privacy concerns, allowed him to decide his own path of compliance. Clinical depression does not explain away calculated murder nor delusions of grandeur or martyrdom.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SimonDanger
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 132):

Great post, albeit a difficult one. I am always amazed how fire, police and paramedics are able to compartmentalize all that they see so that it does not destroy them. I think I'm going to step away from the computer for a while also, to remind myself that while there are sick people who sometimes do tragic things, we have to live our lives the best way we know how, for ourselves and those around us.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 125):
Is it worthy of discussion - yes.

I don't disagree, but a separate thread in Tech/Ops would be the better place for it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 4:58 pm

I live not far from the George Washington Bridge that connects New Jersey and NY City. Since the well publicized suicide jump of a Rutgers student who came from a nearby town and jumped because of being 'outed' by his college dorm roommate, there has been an increase in the numbers of suicide attempts from the walkway for it. Fortunately many have been saved by caring pedestrians and well trained PA police officers, in some cases putting their lives in danger, who then have then brought them to a hospital for evaluation and help. In the next 5 or so years, as part of major renovations and maintenance work on the GWB, fencing will be installed to reduce the ability to jump from the walkway.
Far too often a person with issues in their lives, relationships, with a mix of alcohol and/or drugs, existing mental health issues, financial issues, personal shame, concludes all is hopeless and decides to take their life. In the rescues, many have been talked down and saved,. Maybe someone just listening and being caring in their lives for once may be enough to save them. Perhaps with the case of this flight, the co-pilot didn't really have the support or help of family, friends, co-workers, the medical services to really catch him in time before he did this horrible act.
 
RogerMurdock
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting md11engineer (Reply 126):
No source in the article for this (and other) information.

The photos of police searches a few days ago include them carrying out a custom-built desktop computer. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...ler-andreas-lubitz-trawled-5420880
 
Skydrol
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting rcair1 (Reply 132):
Thanks for this Skydrol. It is interesting reading.

As a Firefighter - I've been to more suicides and suicidal patients than I would like to remember. As Fire Chief, I often delegate the actual task of verifying suicide to myself, if possible, because I've dealt with it and I know I can manage it. That is not always true - the suicide rate in fire fighters is higher than average. I also have to watch my crew very carefully. We had a recent suicide where one of my younger crew members was struggling for days.

What I have been taught, and observed, is that
- When women state they are going to kill themselves - they typically are calling for help and we will find them alive.
- With men - the opposite. If they say they are going to kill themselves - listen to them (well - listen to women as well), but in the case of men - they tend to say it and do it. Or they just go do it with no warning. And they usually succeed.

Entry at 07.14.13 is an incredibly poignant, first-hand description of the event from a jump survivor, who stated he had a new outlook on life (even after being paralized from the jump), was no longer suicidal, and then overdosed on pain meds.

http://www.skywaybridge.com/2013.htm#130510

Short excerpt:

The entire week prior to the jump I had been going through a breakup with my girlfriend of 7½yrs. She was under the impression that I had been cheating on her for the last few years. But I haven't been. Unfortunately if you put yourself in her place and look at things from her angle, you will think that to. (false evidence).
After days of her not even looking at me, won't answer my phone calls or texts, my stress level got so high that I couldn't eat or sleep. After 5 days of no sleep or food I was no longer thinking straight. I went to work on Friday morning after an argument with her. About 10am the police show up at my job looking for me. I didn't know if they were going to arrest me or not so I slipped out the back door. (I had done nothing wrong but, again, I wasn't thinking straight).
After a 3hr walk home, we again got into an argument. I left to go get my belongings from work. I then though "screw this shit. I am just going to go jump off the skyway bridge." my entire world was collapsing around me. I picked up the kids from school, dropped them off with her and left for the bridge.
By this point I had a kind of tunnel vision. I paid the toll and drove to the top. On the way I call my ex and she ignored my call. I called again. Again she ignored me. I then called 911 from my cell phone to report the jump and told them to call my ex to inform her where her car was. After I hung up the phone, I emptied my pockets (cell, spare change, wallet, etc), put the key in the book bag on the passenger floor, got out of the car, closed the door, walked to the rear of the car, turned and took 3 rapid steps then dove over the wall.


The "tunnel vision" descibed after performing the routine daily task of picking up the kids. Leaving behind wallet, change, phone. Making sure the ex knew where to find her car. Very methodical. Did Adam even put one second of thought into possibly taking out innocent, unaware people in a boat 200 feet below? No. The mission was to end his life, nothing else mattered.

Was FO Lubitz a pre-meditated, sinister, mass-murderer? Or did he reach the tunnel vision state, and just wanted to be alone, and get the captain out of his way? Did Lubitz even think about the 150 innocent passengers behind him? Likely not. He was likely so tuned out from the outside world, he didn't even hear the alarms, radio comms, shouting or pounding on the door. But the FDR will hold the answer. If at the last instant, Lubitz decided it was a bad idea, and changed his mind and wanted to live, but much too late for those poor people.

Only a rare few who survive suicide attempts which statistically should have killed them live to describe this emotion.




LD4
∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
Lizzie
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 136):
Isn't it time we stop calling this depression? It was obviously more than that, at minimum a misdiagnosis (the shrinking profession diagnosis depression far too often when more serious issues exist), or at worst a diagnosis psychosis that should have prevented him from flying but due to false privacy concerns, allowed him to decide his own path of compliance. Clinical depression does not explain away calculated murder nor delusions of grandeur or martyrdom.

There simply isn't a diagnosis for every bizarre mental state that people get into. In any case a diagnosis of mental illness is largely descriptive, and is mostly useful to the extent it helps select a treatment most likely to help.

Depression doesn't cease to be depression just because other symptoms are also present. In fact, depression is better seen as a dimension rather than a classification. People with psychosis, for instance, may or may not, also be depressed. And some forms of depression (bipolar, for instance, or schizoaffective disorder) can veer into psychosis.

And while all these things increase the risk of suicide, suicide-mass murder remains extremely rare. Not only is suicide hard to predict, even when you have a current diagnosis of a mental illness that increases the risk, suicide-murder is almost impossible to predict.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting RogerMurdock (Reply 140):
Quoting md11engineer (Reply 126):
No source in the article for this (and other) information.

The photos of police searches a few days ago include them carrying out a custom-built desktop computer. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...ler-andreas-lubitz-trawled-5420880

They got a computer, but I could not find anything about the results of a search on Lubitz's computer in any of the serious German news sources.

Jan

[Edited 2015-03-29 10:33:11]
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:36 pm

So now it is being reported that Lubitz's girlfriend is pregnant and Lubitz was aware of this fact. It is also being reported that he was a control freak and she had become increasingly fearful of him.

He was also cheating on his girlfriend with a stewardess. Apart from his medical issues, it seems that he certainly had a very dark side.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:53 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 144):
now it is being reported

By whom, if I may ask?
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
morsecoder
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:08 pm

The IP addresses of websites you visit are usually stored in your computer log files and router memory as well. Sometimes on a rolling basis (i.e. some number of most recent sites) or sometimes until the logs are deleted. Your ISP will also have a record of the connections made to your IP address. In the U.S., I think the standard is to keep that data for 90 days. I don't know how it works in Germany, but here, if the police have a search warrant from a judge, it's all accessible.
 
s5daw
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:49 pm

I tried to argue there were alternative explanations... But as more and more information comes out, it seems the official explanation is likely beyond a reasonable doubt.

I just can't comprehend this... It's so sad and tragic
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting morsecoder (Reply 146):
In the U.S., I think the standard is to keep that data for 90 days. I don't know how it works in Germany, but here, if the police have a search warrant from a judge, it's all accessible.

In Germany, the provider can only store data that is necessary for technical troubleshooting, and to calculate and send out the bills.

A kind of preemptive data collection on internet users (the Vorratsdatenspeicherung) with keeping the connection data for up to 90 days (so I believe) is in the stages of being made into a law.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
exfss
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 144):
It is also being reported that he was a control freak

Sorry to say that, but he would not be the first pilot (nor the last)with this attitude.
I have seen a couple of ''black eyes woman'' married with pilot.
(in fact, my sister)

Quoting DDR (Reply 144):
He was also cheating on his girlfriend with a stewardess

That is almost as common as cloud in the sky isn'it?

Quoting DDR (Reply 144):
it seems that he certainly had a very dark side.

Well if you judge his ''dark side'' only on that, how many pilot are control freak?
How many pilot foul around with FA?

He obvioulsy had a dark side, but if A psychist would stop flying all pilot that fall into these two thing, not many plane would be on the air tonight i think...
No question is stupid.Only answers can be.
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 13

Sun Mar 29, 2015 7:55 pm

First, the important thing. There are so many ways in which pilot can cause structural problems, unrecoverable flight envelope, quick attitude changes near the ground, etc that I doubt the door designs themselves will have an effect. If you can't sit idle pondering what you have done for 8 minutes or 7 hours... you will perhaps crash the plane on take-off. Or hit the other pilot in the head when he is not suspecting it. And many other things.

We can improve the system, but we are close to as good as it is going to get. Without an ability to see inside people's heads... you will be relying on the skills and professionalism of the pilots and the organisation that hired them. Just the way it is.

P.S. I agree that specific new door designs deserve their own thread.

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