2nd try since my first thread was deleted...

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...banking-on-tighter-connections.ece

I'm curious how this transition went for other airlines when they rebanked post 9/11.

Are there enough mainline capable gates at ORD for a re-banked operation?

Quoting AAORY (Thread starter): I'm curious how this transition went for other airlines when they rebanked post 9/11.

Pleased to report a smooth transition at MIA in August. I think it was the first LAA hub to be rebanked.

DFW and ORD fleet service is gonna get rocked! Lol. Watch the number of delays fluctuate but stabilize in a few days .

DFW always seemed to have a good flow there as a be banked hub, never seemed to be any delays waiting for a gate or no queues for take off longer than maybe 4 planes at a time...curious to see how busier it will be now.

DFW has more runways than even ATL does, so it should fare pretty well. Only major hiccups should be weather-related as always.

Will indeed be interesting to see how this goes.

Personally, I think this is going to end up being worse for the customer experience but ultimately better for the airline's bottom line, which is of course why AA is doing it and why AA's main competitors also did it. I will say that if there was any other hub in the U.S. other than ATL that probably could still sustain the economics of a depeaked hub, it would likely be DFW just given the sheer scale of the operation. Nonetheless, it is what it is.

There is no question that this is going to produce a lot of much tighter connections that are going to require more running through terminals to make. And when things do go off schedule - as they are prone to do, at least during certain seasons, at DFW and ORD, there is going to be a lot of disruption. Thankfully, I'm almost always an O&D passenger at DFW and ORD and thus rarely must worry about connections - but for some, this will certainly be an issue.

Nonetheless, AA's management team knows all of that - both from the experience at USAirways, and the actual numbers they have access to at AA, and Parker and Kirby continue to swear up and down that the added costs of a banked schedule from lower utilization of assets (gates, airplanes, people, equipment, etc.) is dwarfed by the added revenue generated by charging a premium for getting a connecting passenger to their final destination sooner. Considering the mountains of proprietary data that AA's management has run the math on, and considering that AA's main rivals have all run similar math and come to similar conclusions about their own big hubs, I'm inclined to think AA's management is right in the decision We shall see...

Quoting phllax (Reply 1): Are there enough mainline capable gates at ORD for a re-banked operation?

AA obviously thinks there is. Remember that there are lots of Eagle flights that have been operating off of formerly-mainline gates at ORD - in the last decade Eagle has slowly been creeping off of just G and working its way down the H/K concourse, plus most of L as well. I suspect that with banking, and the resulting reduction in frequency and upgauging in per-flight capacity in many markets, Eagle will progressively start to shrink back towards just G and maybe some of the low H/K or L gates (but not both) as mainline reclaims some of that real estate.

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 3): DFW and ORD fleet service is gonna get rocked! Lol. Watch the number of delays fluctuate but stabilize in a few days

What I expect as well. The next few weeks will probably be a mess at DFW and ORD as crews adjust (readjust, in the case of more senior employees) back to a banked environment and all that means for the operation, and then things will smooth back out again. AA seems to be hiring plenty more people to operate this more asset-intensive operation - so at least AA is (apparently) staffing appropriately.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 4): DFW always seemed to have a good flow there as a be banked hub, never seemed to be any delays waiting for a gate or no queues for take off longer than maybe 4 planes at a time...curious to see how busier it will be now.

Yep - there will be plenty of waiting for gates, I'm sure, even under perfectly clear, normal conditions - let alone in the spring when thunderstorms roll through. (Although I suspect that in such situations when a massive OSO disruption occurs, AA may well just effectively cancel entire banks and attempt to recover the schedule/operation 1-2 hours later when the next bank is scheduled.)

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 5): DFW has more runways than even ATL does, so it should fare pretty well. Only major hiccups should be weather-related as always.

I don't think runway capacity has ever been a concern. As you said - DFW is the only airport in the world that can handle seven simultaneous takeoffs and landings so getting planes on or off the ground isn't typically a particularly big challenge, even at peak times.

The bigger concern, I think, for many is the terminal and gate capacity - gates, even at an airport as massive and sprawling as DFW, can be a scarce resource at peak times. I suspect that, much is the case today at most other major U.S. hubs that are banked, waiting for gates to open during the banks will once again become the norm at DFW, as it always was until DFW was depeaked over a decade ago.

My friends from Eagle (Envoy) have been saying the day started well but has started to go downhill fast. Hopefully it smooths out in the next few days/weeks. Though unfortunately the Envoy operation has been a mess for a while now so I'm not sure how much can be attributed to re-banking. I think the AA operation would be a more accurate indicator of how things are going.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 7):

Both cities appear to be doing very well from an A0/ D0 perspective......thats probably the best measurement. its a very high load factor weekend as well so thats a very good indicator at this point.

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 8):

From what I've heard, so far so good. There are LUS managers in both DFW and ORD on TDY from CLathelping out on the ramp side. Particularly the connecting bag running operation.

I don't know about ORD, but it's perfect weather in DFW today,

sunny, kinda windy and mid 70's right now. That should make

life a little easier for the ramp guys and gals today

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 8): Both cities appear to be doing very well from an A0/ D0 perspective......thats probably the best measurement.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9): From what I've heard, so far so good.

  

At least as per FlightStats, accounting for the regional operators, it appears DFW overall is averaging somewhere in the mid-to-high 80s for D0/A0 today, and ORD is about the same (maybe even a bit better).

I'd say that's pretty good for day 1.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9): There are LUS managers in both DFW and ORD on TDY from CLathelping out on the ramp side. Particularly the connecting bag running operation.

Smart - yet another indication, along with the seemingly smooth FF cutover this weekend, that the current AA (largely former USAirways) management team learned the lessons of the last time. Next up is SOC in a few weeks, and then the biggie (res migration) after the summer. Let's hope for the best.

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 10): I don't know about ORD, but it's perfect weather in DFW today, sunny, kinda windy and mid 70's right now. That should make life a little easier for the ramp guys and gals today

It is indeed a very nice, sunny day in DFW with hardly a cloud in the sky - definitely good for the first day of banked operations.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11): At least as per FlightStats, accounting for the regional operators, it appears DFW overall is averaging somewhere in the mid-to-high 80s for D0/A0 today, and ORD is about the same (maybe even a bit better). I'd say that's pretty good for day 1.

That's because the morning shift has all the senior folks. At DFW the hundreds of new rampers will be working nights, with some gates having all new hires, that's when it starts to go down hill fast.

I just booked a really tight connection in ORD for May. 40 minutes from DEN via ORD to LHR. Might become interesting.

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 10): I don't know about ORD, but it's perfect weather in DFW today, sunny, kinda windy and mid 70's right now.

In the 30s and was just starting to rain when I got into ORD this morning.

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 12): hat's because the morning shift has all the senior folks. At DFW the hundreds of new rampers will be working nights, with some gates having all new hires, that's when it starts to go down hill fast.

And THAT is when you learn or burn.

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 13): I just booked a really tight connection in ORD for May. 40 minutes from DEN via ORD to LHR. Might become interesting.

And by interesting, you mean, sleeping on the floor of the airport all night?

ORD was very good even with the ice/rain mix that fell for about 2-3hrs today just about everyone at ORD is senior and very few were not around when they last banked

Quoting commavia (Reply 11): I'd say that's pretty good for day 1

  
The sun has just set here in MIA and there may be a couple more banks to go at DFW & ORD, but seeing this thread falling asleep I'd say an excellent beginning   

Quoting goboeing (Reply 16): And by interesting, you mean, sleeping on the floor of the airport all night?

They didn't say it was the LAST connection  

Quoting TUSAA (Reply 12):

Lol

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 20):

You got it all wrong, dude. Where's the booze and hooxxxs for the night shift? 

BTW I love your signature   

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 20): Lol

Opposite at my station, fortunately! (I work the night shift) Morning shift gets waves of people checking in who have just come off of the cruise ships or who have just checked out of their hotels. By the time the night shift rolls around, everyone already checked in and it's smooth sailing!  

There was an article in the Chicago Tribune in the last week or so about UA and AA both rebanking ORD. UA wasn't planning to hire any additional employees, but AA was planning to hire 400 or so additional employees.

With the rescheduling of flights, IIRC, AA will see 10 addtional mainline flights this summer, although the article didn't give a number for a reduction in the Eagle schedule.

One of the problems with a rolling hub is that you can get some large connection times, say 1:15 to 2:30. A connection of 45 minutes at ORD isn't bad, assuming you don't come in at the end of G and need to get to the end of K or L.

On the other hand, I won't do a 45-minute connection at DFW, espeically if I know I have to change terminals. A late arrival just makes it too tight.

This is going to be a disaster if AA doesn't get the Americn Eagle operation shaped up. I flew AMA-DFW-AUS with a 50 minute connection a few weeks ago. I missed my AUS connection because my MQ flight from AMA was delayed. On the way back my YV flight DFW-AMA was delayed 3 hours due to mechanical issues & we didn't land at AMA until 1:00 AM. The flight before mine was delayed about 3 hours as well. Terminal B was a mess. The one service center in the stinger concourse had a line that went back almost all the way to the main terminal. Some of the passengers on my flight had been trying to get to AMA since 10:00 AM. Gate agents and information were sparse. We were told that Eagle cancelled and delayed so many flights that day that there were no more hotels. Apparently rental cars were scarce too. Last Thursday a colleague was flying AMA-DFW-MFE. He misconnected on the way down because his Eagle fligbt AMA-DFW was late. With more flights going to Eagle these reliability issues are going to have to be resolved for this banked operation to work. Otherwise the issues we saw in the late '90s and 2000 thru the first part of 2001 are going to look like child's play.

[Edited 2015-03-30 14:52:53]

[Edited 2015-03-30 14:53:51]

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 24): This is going to be a disaster if AA doesn't get the Americn Eagle operation shaped up. I flew AMA-DFW-AUS with a 50 minute connection a few weeks ago. I missed my AUS connection because my MQ flight from AMA was delayed. On the way back my YV flight DFW-AMA was delayed 3 hours due to mechanical issues & we didn't land at AMA until 1:00 AM. The flight before mine was delayed about 3 hours as well. Terminal B was a mess. The one service center in the stinger concourse had a line that went back almost all the way to the main terminal. Some of the passengers on my flight had been trying to get to AMA since 10:00 AM. Gate agents and information were sparse. We were told that Eagle cancelled and delayed so many flights that day that there were no more hotels. Apparently rental cars were scarce too. Last Thursday a colleague was flying AMA-DFW-MFE. He misconnected on the way down because his Eagle fligbt AMA-DFW was late. With more flights going to Eagle these reliability issues are going to have to be resolved for this banked operation to work. Otherwise the issues we saw in the late '90s and 2000 thru the first part of 2001 are going to look like child's play.

While this situation sucks, I don't see what difference the rebanking will make. These people would have misconnected anyway due to these delays, banked or rolling hub structure...

Looks like the transition to a banked operation at has gotten off to a reasonably well start. One thing I noticed is the flights out of DFW are generously blocked for over 25 minutes of taxi time from pushback to takeoff. Out of ORD, some are blocked for about 35 minutes. Even with the banks the "out-off" times are generally still 15-20 minutes or less, resulting in some very early arrivals into outstations. Most of the flights into my station from both DFW and ORD the past 2 days since the banking started arrived over 15 minutes early as a result (one was 35 early!).
I noticed there were a number of ramp delays in DFW that were a direct result of gate crews that consisted of basically all newhires, which is exactly what Phillyramp720 predicted. Didn't seem to be an abnormally large amount of delays though. The great weather certainly was ideal for the transition.
I'll soon be working for AA mainline at DFW starting in about 2 weeks so I'll have an inside look into how it's going. The first day of stormy weather at DFW this spring will certainly be an interesting test.

Quoting AMALH747430 (Reply 24): This is going to be a disaster if AA doesn't get the Americn Eagle operation shaped up. I flew AMA-DFW-AUS with a 50 minute connection a few weeks ago. I missed my AUS connection because my MQ flight from AMA was delayed. On the way back my YV flight DFW-AMA was delayed 3 hours due to mechanical issues & we didn't land at AMA until 1:00 AM. The flight before mine was delayed about 3 hours as well. Terminal B was a mess. The one service center in the stinger concourse had a line that went back almost all the way to the main terminal. Some of the passengers on my flight had been trying to get to AMA since 10:00 AM. Gate agents and information were sparse. We were told that Eagle cancelled and delayed so many flights that day that there were no more hotels. Apparently rental cars were scarce too. Last Thursday a colleague was flying AMA-DFW-MFE. He misconnected on the way down because his Eagle fligbt AMA-DFW was late. With more flights going to Eagle these reliability issues are going to have to be resolved for this banked operation to work. Otherwise the issues we saw in the late '90s and 2000 thru the first part of 2001 are going to look like child's play.

More like the Mesa operation at DFW is a disaster. Constant lengthy mechanical delays on flights both in/out of DFW. Not sure about their LAX or PHX operation but generally don't see as many issues with the YV flights operating on the L-US side into/out of CLT and PHL.

Do airports hate this banking? Wouldn't they lose revenue from passengers buying things at shops if connection times are tight?

What are the time blocks for the banks at DFW and ORD?

Quoting 815Oceanic (Reply 27): Do airports hate this banking? Wouldn't they lose revenue from passengers buying things at shops if connection times are tight?

Yes and no. It certainly makes the restaurants have huge chaotic peaks. Visit either A concourse at PHX and it will be close to impossible to get a seat at 4 Peaks or any of the other restaurants. Most places an hour is not too short to get food, and you don't have the guy that sits on his laptop for 3 hours and only orders 1 beer.