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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:09 am
by prebennorholm
Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 196):
...does not seem to be any fuel spillage and certainly no post crash fire. If the fuel tanks were not ruptured, that is one tough bird.

Snow is your friend when you want to avoid a fuel fire.

In one video an interviewed passenger told about a strong fuel smell as he ran away from the crash site.

Seemingly the fuel tanks were not ruptured, but sure the fuel lines to the engines were.

The slats are partly torn off and partly badly damaged. Apart from that the wing main structures (with the fuel tanks) seem mostly intact.

Had the wing been exposed to crash forces similar to the engines and landing gears, then it would have been a different story.

Thank God there was no post crash fire. And I mean just that - "Thank God". With slightly different circumstances this could have ended in a fireball. Even minimum legal reserves of fuel could have created a terrible fire.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:24 am
by prebennorholm
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 198):
For unknowns reason this A320 was 150 or 200 feet too low.

Frankly, I'm interested to know those reasons.

Frankly, who isn't?

We will know the exact reason when the investigators choose to tell us. It is all in the recorders, and even the pilots live to tell their story.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:58 am
by KELPkid
Quoting Okie (Reply 199):
The real issue is how they got so far below a 3° approach angle from DA.
If they could see the PAPI then it would have been 4 red,

A localizer approach is shot by dropping quickly to the altitude at the next fix...a bad altimeter setting could ruin your day  It could even be the case that if the weather was changing rapidly, the barometric pressure could have lowered while the approach was being shot. But that's what GPWS is for...

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:35 am
by czbbflier
It seems to me that the saving grace in this whole incident is that it has been unusually snowy in Halifax the past month. My uncle lives less than 10 miles from the airport and has been face booking pictures of his house with snow accumulations to the roof edge. Halifax has had a series of Boston-like snow storms lately. Just last week, a state of emergency was declared by the city because of the snow- and Halifax is very well equipped to handle snow.

But reality lurks beneath the white stuff: Check out street view of below the threshold of the runway: HERE.

Not only is the embankment 25-30 feet high and at a 30º angle, but if you look closely just above the shadow of the Google Maps imaging assembly there's a 5 or 6 foot high rock WALL.

It seems that the aircraft had a very soft, cushioned impact, where it first would have billowed into the snowpack, and then slid across the snow, across the snow banks on both sides of the road which would have elevated it over the rock wall and then continued to toboggan up the embankment made less severe by the compression of the snow and up onto the runway.

It is because of the very deep snow that quite possibly kept the fuel tanks from rupturing, and why the fuselage appears to have come out relatively unscathed.

Had this accident taken place with no snow or very little of it, the outcome could have been much, much worse.

Haligonians may have a hard time admitting this but the enormous amount of snow that has fallen lately has been a miracle for the occupants of AC624.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:07 am
by DocLightning
Part of me is hoping that this is like the BA 772 at LHR. I want it to be a system flaw and not pilot error.

And then I remember that the A320 has been in service since 1988 and no major icing flaws in the engine fuel lines or anything that would cause a dual-engine failure on final approach in the snow have ever been found. As time goes on the likelihood that it will happen grows smaller.

Just based on statistics alone, this is likely to be pilot error.  

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:59 am
by exfss
Quoting czbbflier (Reply 203):
Haligonians may have a hard time admitting this but the enormous amount of snow that has fallen lately has been a miracle for the occupants of AC624.

I totally agree on that.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 202):
It could even be the case that if the weather was changing rapidly, the barometric pressure could have lowered while the approach was being shot

In that case the wx obs would have mentionned PRSFR or PRSRR, which is not the case.

If I recall my years in an non controlled airport as FSS, when there is a plane on approch with bad wx as in this case, I would have the eyes stocked on the altimeter as so to make sure this doent happen.

If we look at the wx obs at 03z , altimeter was 2962, and at 0313Z altimeter 2963, so it is not a dramatic change in altimeter setting.
CYHZ 290313Z 35020G26KT 1/2SM R14/3500V4500FT/N SN DRSN VV003 M06/M07 A2963 RMKSN8 SLP040
CYHZ 290300Z CCA 34019G25KT 1/4SM R14/P6000VM0300FT/N +SN DRSN VV003 M06/M07 A2962 RMK SN8 /S09/ SLP038

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:21 pm
by bmacleod


Quoting Lostsound (Reply 150):
This will just put a dent in their fleet expansion plans but likely won't hurt them at their current capacity.

An expected class action lawsuit will likely also put a dent in AC profit for this year.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ile-class-action-lawsuit-1.3015519

[Edited 2015-03-31 06:23:54]

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:26 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 194):
Not sure why I misread the rwy 05 threshold elevation as 449m.

It's not 449 meters but rather 449 feet which make 136,87 meters.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:54 pm
by ac7e7
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 207):

Doubt that - airlines have insurance to cover these sort of things. Especially airlines with impeccable safety records.

Considering everyone survived with relatively few injuries, I doubt people will be making the fortune they are being promised.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:39 pm
by Beatyair
Seriously, power lines of any sort at the end of a runway?

Does Halifax have a category 3 runway? The plane could land itself.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:44 pm
by YYZYYT
As a frequent traveler on the YYZ-YYT route, I have often landed at YHZ in strong winds / snow... this strikes too close to home!

Quoting cyberentomology (Reply 118):
AC still has a pretty impressive safety record. The most recent fatalities predate the Gimli Glider, and the last (and only) time they lost all souls on board was in 1970 (although they did have a training flight in 1967 where all 3 crew were killed, but no pax on board)

technical not correct - the 1997 Fredricton "runway overrun" (noted in post 105) had 1 fatality as I recall... the poor fellow sitting where that tree trunk ended up.

But the spirit of your post is correct, AC does have a great safety record.

Here is a thought: In most accidents where there is an aircraft sitting, visible, after a crash, the airline swops in and paints out the logos and name (usually pretty quickly). None of the pictures I have seen show that. Is that AC policy? do airlines have a policy re that?

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:57 pm
by northstardc4m
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 210):
Here is a thought: In most accidents where there is an aircraft sitting, visible, after a crash, the airline swops in and paints out the logos and name (usually pretty quickly). None of the pictures I have seen show that. Is that AC policy? do airlines have a policy re that?

In the US/Canada, crash scenes are treated similar to crime scenes and access is restricted. You won't find the painted out logos after accidents.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:58 pm
by Thunderboltdrgn
Quoting beatyair (Reply 209):
Seriously, power lines of any sort at the end of a runway?

Judging by the posts in this thread the power line was some distance away from the
threshold and they were not higher up then the localizer antenna.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:00 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 208):
Doubt that - airlines have insurance to cover these sort of things. Especially airlines with impeccable safety records.

Huh? What? Oh, right. You quoted the wrong reply.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:06 pm
by SpaceshipDC10
Quoting beatyair (Reply 209):
Seriously, power lines of any sort at the end of a runway?

You should see what they have at GVA...

http://maps.google.fr/maps?q=Geneva&...b0bbc39&hnear=Gen%C3%A8ve&t=h&z=19

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:12 pm
by lostsound
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 210):
Here is a thought: In most accidents where there is an aircraft sitting, visible, after a crash, the airline swops in and paints out the logos and name (usually pretty quickly). None of the pictures I have seen show that. Is that AC policy? do airlines have a policy re that?
Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 211):
In the US/Canada, crash scenes are treated similar to crime scenes and access is restricted. You won't find the painted out logos after accidents.

Air Canada has done this in the past with in fact the very incident the top quoter referred to.



In terms of last accident AC had, a Jazz CRJ-100 had a landing gear collapse not too many years ago, but I guess technically that's not Air Canada.

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 210):

technical not correct - the 1997 Fredricton "runway overrun" (noted in post 105) had 1 fatality as I recall... the poor fellow sitting where that tree trunk ended up.

Nope, there were no fatalities in this accident. Who ever was sitting by that tree is a lucky duck!

[Edited 2015-03-31 09:17:12]

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:15 pm
by cabochris
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 206):

Thats what insurance is for... so you dont have out of pocket costs. The reality is a small payout for the injured, broken noses and nightmares are settled for around 25k in Canada these days, according to a friend in the insurance biz. Also AC and GE will be paid, im sure they had hull loss and revenue loss coverage on the equipment.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:27 pm
by AC_B777
Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 210):
the 1997 Fredricton "runway overrun" (noted in post 105) had 1 fatality as I recall

Negative, 0 fatalities from that accident. I heard that the man sitting where the tree entered the fuselage had a leg or foot amputated, but I can't confirm that for sure.
The last fatality that AC had was on AC797, the DC-9 that caught fire and landed in CVG in 1983.

Quoting northstardc4m (Reply 211):
You won't find the painted out logos after accidents.

As shown by lostsound, the CRJ accident at YFC had the logos and titles painted out. Actually, a friend of mine who works at AC, was working in YFC the night of the CRJ accident and he was the person assigned to paint over the logos and titles.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:45 pm
by YYZYYT
Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 217):
Negative, 0 fatalities from that accident. I heard that the man sitting where the tree entered the fuselage had a leg or foot amputated, but I can't confirm that for sure.
Quoting lostsound (Reply 215):
Nope, there were no fatalities in this accident. Who ever was sitting by that tree is a lucky duck!

I stand corrected- thanks

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:22 pm
by hilevel09
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 206):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 202):
It could even be the case that if the weather was changing rapidly, the barometric pressure could have lowered while the approach was being shot

In that case the wx obs would have mentionned PRSFR or PRSRR, which is not the case.

If I recall my years in an non controlled airport as FSS, when there is a plane on approch with bad wx as in this case, I would have the eyes stocked on the altimeter as so to make sure this doent happen.

If we look at the wx obs at 03z , altimeter was 2962, and at 0313Z altimeter 2963, so it is not a dramatic change in altimeter setting.
CYHZ 290313Z 35020G26KT 1/2SM R14/3500V4500FT/N SN DRSN VV003 M06/M07 A2963 RMKSN8 SLP040
CYHZ 290300Z CCA 34019G25KT 1/4SM R14/P6000VM0300FT/N +SN DRSN VV003 M06/M07 A2962 RMK SN8 /S09/ SLP038

>>Take a look at the METAR for 0400Z:
CYHZ 290400Z 34019G54KT 3/4SM R14/5000VP6000FT/D -SN DRSN BKN007 OVC010 M06/M07 A2964 RMK SF7SC1 SLP045
Pressure continues to rise but look at the wind gusts jumping from 19 to 54 knots from 340 degrees. The runway runs along 035 degrees T creating a spread of about 55 degrees between wind and the rwy centreline plus the 35 knot increase in wind speed in gusts. Incident happened at approx 0340Z. Maybe some A320 folks on here could comment on how that wind would feel in tight quarters. Enough to dip the right wing to clip the powerline?

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:45 pm
by PW100
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 190):
Practically all of the horizontal stabilizer is missing. Is there any information about where the debris from that was found?My guess would be that it was torn off by the localizer structure or the power lines. If so, then it means that the plane made an uncontrolled trajectory from first impact onto the runway

It seems likely that both engines sheared off, and hit the stabilizers on their way to freedom.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:36 pm
by antoniemey
Quoting PW100 (Reply 220):
It seems likely that both engines sheared off, and hit the stabilizers on their way to freedom.

Left stabilizer is pretty visibly still there, though damaged, and right engine is still on the wing, though twisted and crushed.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:48 pm
by prebennorholm
Quoting PW100 (Reply 220):
It seems likely that both engines sheared off, and hit the stabilizers on their way to freedom.

The #2 engine came to rest under the wing as can be seen here
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ile-class-action-lawsuit-1.3015519

Therefore it cannot be responcible for taking the right side horizontal stabilizer.

The debris field will show what removed most of the horizontal stabilizer.

I just find it likely that the localizer structures or power lines took away the horizontal stabilizer, both sides. If that was the case, then it left the flight crew as spectators only for the last couple of thousand feet, including the touch down on the runway.

The #1 engine separated completely and came to rest some distance behind the plane. It may have been involved in destruction of the left side stabilizer.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:26 am
by AirCanada787
Quoting czbbflier (Reply 203):
Just last week, a state of emergency was declared by the city because of the snow- and Halifax is very well equipped to handle snow.

The city never declared a state of emergency due to snow, it was considered and many thought we should but it didn't happen.


Reading through posts I'm not sure if it has been mentioned or if this is the right place for it but a local law firm is already preparing a class action suit against Air Canada, the Halifax International Airport Authority as well as Nav Canada.

Link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...ile-class-action-lawsuit-1.3015519

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:52 am
by ltbewr
I have yet to seen any comments as to the pilots, including their physical state as well as their experience in hours and as to this aircraft.

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:58 am
by Viscount724
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 224):
I have yet to seen any comments as to the pilots, including their physical state as well as their experience in hours and as to this aircraft.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 224):
I have yet to seen any comments as to the pilots, including their physical state as well as their experience in hours and as to this aircraft.

A passenger said at least one pilot (possibly both, can't remember) had blood on their faces. It's unusual in Canada for information on hours and experience etc. to be published prior to the official accident report, unless the TSB should release that type of information in an interim report.

[Edited 2015-03-31 19:00:14]

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:56 am
by czbbflier
Quoting beatyair (Reply 209):
Seriously, power lines of any sort at the end of a runway?

The power lines are way below the glide slope and roughly even with the elevation of the threshold.
Check out this Google Earth image:
[https://goo.gl/maps/pqxcy

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax

Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:00 am
by 777ER
Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2 (by 777ER Mar 31 2015 in Civil Aviation)