KLM To Replace Fokker 70 With Embraer E175

photophil · Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:50 am

KLM just announced that the Fokker 70s of KLM Cityline will be replaced by Embraer E175 starting 2016

http://news.klm.com/klm-purchases-se...30maart2015&WT.tsrc=SocialCampaign

This will result in a 30x E190 and 15x E175 fleet for KLC

KarelXWB · Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:57 am

I can't say I surprised.

photophil · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:00 am

It seems a lot of people posted this at the same time ... maybe we can cut it down to only one thread.

=====

Its sad to see the Fokkers go ... I luckily had some flights with them but they will be missed. Not many will be around as also Austrian is replacing their fleet with Embraer

KarelXWB · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:16 am

Quote:
The fifteen E175+ aircraft will be taken up in the KLM Cityhopper fleet between March 2016 and June 2018.

A quick phase out of the Fokker fleet: the whole fleet will be replaced within a time window of just about two years.

photophil · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:20 am

btw ... does someone know what that plus (E175+) in the announced type stands for? Is there any modification/new version of the E175 ongoing? Can not really be the E175-E2 yet ...

And I am quite surprised to see that step of replacement so soon after refurbishing the cabins of the F70 ... seems a bit like wasted money now

KarelXWB · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:23 am

Quoting photophil (Reply 4):
btw ... does someone know what that plus (E175+) in the announced type stands for?

The E175+ has a different winglet to increase fuel efficiency of the aircraft.

migair54 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:55 am

No surprise in my opinion, they have been operating the E-jets (28 E190) for few years and I have flown in some of them between AMS and TLS and the plane is great, very comfortable and nice. I am quite happy when I know it´s an E-190 my flight, same with KQ.

Maybe some people was thinking that KLM could wait for the new Fokker plane, maybe in the future.

I´m not sure about the configuration, but in other airlines I think they have something around 75 seat, F-70 has 70, so they will also get extra seats, that´s an added value.

Quoting photophil (Reply 4):
btw ... does someone know what that plus (E175+) in the announced type stands for? Is there any modification/new version of the E175 ongoing? Can not really be the E175-E2 yet ...

According to Embraer the winglets and some other modifications increases efficiency by 6,4%.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...raer-upgrade-idUSL2N0M919C20140312

KarelXWB · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:57 am

Full details (in Dutch):

http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...order-voor-embraer-175-vliegtuigen

- As reported above, the order is for 15x E175+, 2x E190
- Air France/KLM secured 17 additional aircraft options for HOP!
- The E175+ comes with a new winglet for better fuel efficiency
- The E175+ will be equipped with 88 seats versus 100 seats for the E190
- First E190 will arrive in December 2015; E175's will be delivered between March 2016 and June 2018
- Other replacement candidates were the MRJ, Q400 and ATR 72-600 but fleet commonality was key decision

[Edited 2015-03-30 02:05:39]

sirtoby · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Air France/KLM will become the biggest Embraer customer

Don't think so. The largest EJet fleet (and growing) has Republic.

KarelXWB · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 8):
Don't think so. The largest EJet fleet (and growing) has Republic.

Thanks for the update, I should have checked that.

r2rho · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:17 am

So sad to see the F70 go, though this had to come sooner or later.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
- Other replacement candidates were the MRJ, Q400 and ATR 72-600 but fleet commonality was key decision

Have to agree on this. Although the MRJ would have been a good fit, it makes little sense to introduce another type, specially as KL seems to be doing very well with their E190's.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
- Air France/KLM secured 17 additional aircraft options for HOP!

Interesting. HOP could really use a fleet rationalization, they operate every RJ type in existence. This tilts the balance towards Embraer now...

factsonly · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:55 am

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 8):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Air France/KLM will become the biggest Embraer customer

Don't think so. The largest EJet fleet (and growing) has Republic.

Had the statement been: 'The largest Embraer customer in Europe', that would have been correct.

AF/KL Groupe will operate 71 E-jets.

TheSonntag · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:03 am

Surprisingly no Rekkof

Quite a shame but I am sure the Fokkers have their best time beyond them.

baldwin471 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:45 am

Shame to see the Fokkers go, but like others said it was inevitable sooner or later. Glad to see the E175 chosen. All of the Embraer EJets are an absolute joy to fly on board.

VC10er · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:20 am

Last week I flew a 3 hour flight on the E175, it was about my 20th ride on the Brazilian aircraft, and I actually think I prefer it to any single aisle aircraft. Why? I'm not exactly sure. The ride always feels great, even in turbulence. It's a sensory thing I presume. The industrial design is futuristic and beautiful, the seats (on UA express in F) and Y on AZUL, are very comfortable. The windows are huge and in the right place and the size feels great, even when full, it doesn't feel so packed when de-plane-ing!

Is there solid consumer/flier data that supports my personal love for this aircraft? I never found a report on E175/190 consumer satisfaction?

Congrats to KLM and bravo to Embraer!

815Oceanic · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:26 am

Does anyone else think it's amazing that people are ordering so many E175 just hearts before the E2 enters service? It's quite impressive for embraer! I wish they would move the 175-E2 up because of the demand and push back one of the other size models.

hibtastic · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:26 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 13):
Shame to see the Fokkers go, but like others said it was inevitable sooner or later. Glad to see the E175 chosen. All of the Embraer EJets are an absolute joy to fly on board.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Last week I flew a 3 hour flight on the E175, it was about my 20th ride on the Brazilian aircraft, and I actually think I prefer it to any single aisle aircraft

Agree with both of the above statements. I really like the Jungle Jets. Always avoid the Dash-8 Flybe flights in favour of those operated by their E175s.

TC957 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 12):
Surprisingly no Rekkof

By the time that ever gets built, the E190's could need replacing so never say never.

migair54 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Last week I flew a 3 hour flight on the E175, it was about my 20th ride on the Brazilian aircraft, and I actually think I prefer it to any single aisle aircraft. Why? I'm not exactly sure. The ride always feels great, even in turbulence. It's a sensory thing I presume. The industrial design is futuristic and beautiful, the seats (on UA express in F) and Y on AZUL, are very comfortable. The windows are huge and in the right place and the size feels great, even when full, it doesn't feel so packed when de-plane-ing!

Is there solid consumer/flier data that supports my personal love for this aircraft? I never found a report on E175/190 consumer satisfaction?

Congrats to KLM and bravo to Embraer!

I also love to fly in the E-jets, I think the feeling is because the 2-2 configuration.

Quoting 815Oceanic (Reply 15):
Does anyone else think it's amazing that people are ordering so many E175 just hearts before the E2 enters service? It's quite impressive for embraer! I wish they would move the 175-E2 up because of the demand and push back one of the other size models.

I guess some of the orders are having in mind the future replacements, so if they need the plane now they can get and after few years get the new version also. Seeing customers ordering the current version means a lot also, the current version is quite good and they have a good replacement for the future.

redzeppelin · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:27 pm

I fear that I will never log the F70. I was booked on the F70 for an AMS-EDI flight about 2 years ago that was subbed with an E190. That was my first (and still my only) E190, so I didn't cry too much. Slight chance of a work trip to Europe this fall, so I might get one more chance...

EPA001 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
I can't say I surprised.

Me neither. But I think they have made an excellent choice. Sad to see the era of the Fokkers come to an end, but that is the result of a normal evolution in airliners. And with no Fokkers being around anymore as a competitive bidder, Embraer is a good successor to the F70's.

gatibosgru · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:38 pm

Is there an E-Jet order/delivery thread?

YYZAMS · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Last week I flew a 3 hour flight on the E175, it was about my 20th ride on the Brazilian aircraft, and I actually think I prefer it to any single aisle aircraft.

I would say the same. Though, it seems now your choices for short/medium haul are a 737, A320 or E175/190. I always look at seating when I book and hate 3 and 3! The 2 and 2 are a little more gezellig!

kaitak · Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:08 pm

I think that this competition was a one horse race; yes, they looked at other options, but once they had the 190 in their fleet, everyone else faced a very uphill battle (and it's very difficult to find a steep uphill in Holland!!)

Quoting VC10er (Reply 14):
Last week I flew a 3 hour flight on the E175, it was about my 20th ride on the Brazilian aircraft, and I actually think I prefer it to any single aisle aircraft. Why? I'm not exactly sure. The ride always feels great, even in turbulence. It's a sensory thing I presume

I've flown on the 175 once, but on the 195 several times - both types with Flybe. Recalling how I loathed the 3-3 layout in the 146, which it replaced, the 195 was just such a totally different machine - bigger windows, more legroom, more space, bigger bins - just a better and nicer aircraft in every way!

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 19):
I fear that I will never log the F70. I was booked on the F70 for an AMS-EDI flight about 2 years ago that was subbed with an E190.

I'm getting a little worried about that myself! I'll have to look hard at how I do this. Just like the F27 and so many other types I missed, I think I'm too late.

LifelinerOne · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:38 pm

Maybe not too much related, but with the phasing out of the Fokker 70's, the government has decided it will replace Fokker 70 PH-KBX by 2017.

It hasn't been decided yet with which aircraft, but I can see an Embraer bizzer so the crew can log hours with KLM as they do now. Looks like our King will need to retrain as well, as he is current on the Fokker 70/100 (and also files regularly with KLM as a f/o).

Cheers!

bjorn14 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:00 pm

If and when SkyWest takes all their E-Jets they will be the largesr EJ operator at 200+ frames.

FlyingHollander · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:14 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Cityhopper shrinking its fleet? 17 new Embraers aircraft replacing 19 Fokkers. This means there will be more seats available, however, I imagine maintaining frequency is equally important to KL. Will aircraft utilization be increased? Or will we see some routes/frequency move to HV? Unlike KL, HV will be adding new 737's to its fleet.

petertenthije · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 26):
Will aircraft utilization be increased?

Maintenance requirements shluld be less so utilization should be better.

What will happen to PH-KBX. I'd like to see it go to the Aviodrome or the MLM at Soesterberg. Complete with VIP interior of course!

flyDTW1992 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):
If and when SkyWest takes all their E-Jets they will be the largesr EJ operator at 200+ frames.

Republic Airways will have well over 200 E-Jets when its 50 new UAX frames are all delivered. They also have options for more American Eagle aircraft that may or may not increase that number.

DDR · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:58 pm

Sad in a way. The F70 is a sexy little bird.

bleudefrance · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:26 pm

I would prefer the SSJ100, but rationally the E175 makes a lot more sense because they already fly with E-Jets.

RayChuang · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:35 am

Is the reason why the F70's are being retired due to the lack of spare parts and the airframe life of the F70's starting to get up there in terms of number of take and landings?

bahadir · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 25):

SkyWest doesn't have orders that big sorry

88 seats on the 175 is a bit cramped.

factsonly · Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:42 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 31):
the airframe life of the F70's starting to get up there in terms of number of take and landings?

There is a lot of life left in these airframes, as Fokker built for 90.000 hours and 90.000 cycles from the very start.

It are the cost of spares and the lowered reliability that are leading to the withdrawal of these airframes.

frigatebird · Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Quote:The fifteen E175+ aircraft will be taken up in the KLM Cityhopper fleet between March 2016 and June 2018.
A quick phase out of the Fokker fleet: the whole fleet will be replaced within a time window of just about two years.

Yes, KL will absorb quite a number of new aircraft, 789's 77W's, E175s. Good thing, their fleet was getting a bit old in average.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Other replacement candidates were the MRJ, Q400 and ATR 72-600 but fleet commonality was key decision

I was kind of hoping they would choose the MRJ. But, with KL usually somewhat conservative with new aircraft type, I can understand they didn't want to run the risk of not only a new aircraft type, but also manufacturer, and new engine. So, the clear benefit of commonality gave the edge. Glad they didn't go for a turboprop though, I don't like them, noisy and cramped.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 6):
they have been operating the E-jets (28 E190) for few years and I have flown in some of them between AMS and TLS and the plane is great, very comfortable and nice. I am quite happy when I know it´s an E-190 my flight, same with KQ.

Yes, I like the E jet and its 2+2 seat config too. Very comfy.

Quoting 815Oceanic (Reply 15):
Does anyone else think it's amazing that people are ordering so many E175 just hearts before the E2 enters service?

I think Embraer does an extremely good job, giving airlines the right package deals they want. I'm sure they know the market very well, and their sales and marketing teams do an excellent job.

I suppose the E175s will be leased, like KL's E190. When the first E190's come off lease, KL could seamlessly introduce the E2, the GTF should have proven itself in real world operations by then.

photophil · Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:35 am

E-Jets are not the most exciting planes out there (the E190 is actually my most-flown-with type) ... But I guess that for commonality reasons this was the best decision for KLM/KLC. Just a bit sad to see the Fokkers go ...

I do not really expect airlines to select their new plane types according to what is interesting for aviation enthusiasts

... sad but true

I have only flown the E175 with US and Canadian airlines who have a full business section in there ... I am not sure how dense the 88-seat layout with KLC will be. Since the introduction of economy comfort on the E190 the normal economy feels quite tight on them as well.

r2rho · Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:03 pm

Quoting photophil (Reply 35):
. I am not sure how dense the 88-seat layout with KLC will be. Since the introduction of economy comfort on the E190 the normal economy feels quite tight on them as well.

88-seat single class implies 30" pitch (AFAIK the densest config possible) - which is OK with slim seats given the distances involved. But if they introduce E+ then that will have to go down to 29" to make room up front - not OK in any condition. I haven't been on their E190 post-E+ introduction. Before that, I found them quite comfortable.

VC10er · Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:02 pm

I have done a lot of branding work with the Embraer team in Sao Jose dos Campos a number of years back. Their cross functional team from engineers, marketing and sales are brilliant and extraordinarily nice. I really only worked on the launch of Embraer Executive Jets, but did get my head around the organization. They all deserve the sales and accolades they get.

Now, when I'm on a commercial flight on an E-175/90, I feel so comfortable knowing how much love was put into that aircraft and know I'm as safe as could be!

I do wish I could find any passenger data that supports what most of us feel when flying them.

EPA001 · Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting photophil (Reply 35):
E-Jets are not the most exciting planes out there (the E190 is actually my most-flown-with type)

They seem to be remarkable unremarkable. Which I mean in a positive way, because they do what is expected of them very well without making a fuzz or so.

Quoting photophil (Reply 35):
I have only flown the E175 with US and Canadian airlines who have a full business section in there ... I am not sure how dense the 88-seat layout with KLC will be.

We will have to wait and see. Also I have only flown on the E175 as a passenger in the US, but depending on what KL wants I think they will be fine. The F70 also did not have much of a business section when it comes to that.

bahadir · Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:59 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 36):
88-seat single class implies 30" pitch (AFAIK the densest config possible) - which is OK with slim seats given the distances involved

Republic 175s before USAirways introduced the first class seats had 86 seats. They were comfortable till 2 hours. I guess if you are running them to replace some F70 routes, they are not bad at 88 seats. The Slimlines seats are actually not bad at all in terms of creating space. I guess i could be wrong in my speculation how cramped 88 seats are going to be.

bennett123 · Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:04 pm

This must be the end for Rekkof.

bjorn14 · Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:36 pm

To FlyDTW1992

I realize that. I was specifically mentioning the 175 not including the the 71 170s RW already owns. OO as the largest operator to be of the type. They have 100 firm + 100 options on order.

EPA001 · Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 40):
This must be the end for Rekkof.

I think Rekkof was still-born from the beginning. I have never given it a serious chance and I don't know the actual status of the Rekkof initiative. I think that ship has sailed a long, long time ago (and maybe in a galaxy far, far away

).

loonytoon44 · Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:15 pm

I am happy I get to take the F70 twice next month. Will be the last time I will have the pleasure of flying that awesome aircraft.

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