BR Hint Towards 747-8 Purchase?

JakeNorton · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:15 am

Hi Guys, Just a short post.

Could BR be hinting towards a 747-8i Purchase?? Link Below.

https://www.facebook.com/evaairwayscorpen/photos/a.187636691429191.1073741828.181414785384715/377483415777850/?type=1&theater

Miami · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:36 am

Hmmmmm. Good find!

To me, they are definitely hinting a possible order.

crimsonchin · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:39 am

I guess in their excitement to "hint" towards an order, they couldn't even get the aircraft name right.

EVAAIRBR076 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:41 am

Hmmm doubtfull, i think its a fanpage and not the original page

Miami · Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 3):
Hmmm doubtfull, i think its a fanpage and not the original page

It actually is the original.

[Edited 2015-03-30 02:59:51]

SEPilot · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:08 am

Interesting. Are they finding the 77W insufficient on some routes?

Ab345 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:58 am

If this is indeed an official BR page, i d say that it is a bit unusual for corporate pages on fb to be hinting at orders especially that were not at all expected. For exampe they have been vocal about the 787-10 so renderings of that wouldn't surprise me. But "maybe we will order the 747-800.." seems a tad unusual. Let's keep an eye on this

karadion · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 6):

747-800? What's that? Is that an A380-8?

[Edited 2015-03-30 04:05:11]

Ab345 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:06 am

Quoting karadion (Reply 7):

Tell that to the poster of their fb page

It was a direct quote

HALtheAI · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:09 am

While it does seem to be the official Facebook page of the airline, whoever maintains it notes that they don't speak for upper management: "This post does not reflect what our top management has in stored for our future fleet. It may very well be an A380, you'll have to wait to find out!"

Stitch · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:15 am

They have stated their interest in ordering the 777F, 787-10 and A32neo
BR: To Order 777F, 787-10 And A321neo (by kaichinshih Mar 11 2015 in Civil Aviation)

They have three active 747-400s (per airfleets.net) and one 777-300ER left to be delivered (per Boeing) so not sure where the 747-8 would fit in unless they're finding they need more Economy Class capacity on some 777-300ER routes.

Still, if they're negotiating for 777s and 787s, now would be the time to also negotiate for 747s.

rlwynn · Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:14 pm

Who is BR?

.

rotating14 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting rlwynn (Reply 11):

Eva Airways

bmacleod · Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:18 pm

I still think the 747-8i has run its course; except of course the USAF order.

Hindsight would predict BR would rather go for the 777-9X....

[Edited 2015-03-30 06:41:55]

ORDJOE · Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:40 pm

How quickly could they get a 748 if they truly wanted one. It is possible some routes need something more than a 77W, but I would think if they are not in an urgent hurry then to just wait a little longer and get a 77X. Would be nice if they do end up getting a few. I like the 777, but it is nice to see other WB aircraft around.

PanAm1971 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:53 pm

Probably a part of an effort to see what kind of deal they can get. I don't think it's outside the realm of reality. I think they could make an order of 6 or 8. Not more.

kaichinshih · Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:04 pm

IMO it was an extremely irresponsible act of the FB page administrators to say something like,
"who knows maybe we'll get the 747-8"
Not professional at all and extremely informal.
Furthermore, talking about whether the order may become reality
One word: Impossible.
The airline is all about 777, 777, 777s
777Fs, 77Ws, 777X...
This whole thread is possibly caused by some random min wage FB managing personnel who has limited knowledge in the aviation industry.

Don't get me wrong, I love the 747-8, but I believe that if there is a likely customer, it would never be BR. CI, on the other hand, is more likely to place orders for both the Intercontinental and the Cargo. The carrier is leasing 77Ws and ordering A359s. Sooner or later, they will need to order a VLA.

seabosdca · Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting kaichinshih (Reply 16):
Not professional at all and extremely informal.

Horrors! Informality on a social networking website!

Quoting kaichinshih (Reply 16):
One word: Impossible.

It would be unexpected, but stranger things have happened, especially when airlines want immediate lift. Probably the best argument against any 747-8 order is that there is now early 777-300ER availability. A few frames that will be delivered to leasing companies in 2016 are not yet placed, and there are delivery slots available in 2017.

trex8 · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:20 pm

They need a 747-8F more than an -8I and since they said publicly they are going to get 777F to replace their 744 freighters I think any interest in the 747-8 is DOA

777way · Mon Mar 30, 2015 3:38 pm

When the other Boeings are offering the same with better economics and lower operating costs, how can Boeing convince an airline to buy them.

zeke · Mon Mar 30, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 14):

Saw a new pax aircraft on speed news recently that has been parked, they could have one immediately. A fleet would take some time.

If they were looking at an aircraft that size, I would have to say it would be a freighter. I could see them teaming up with SQ to expand their codeshare for a 777F/748F fleet to replace their 744F and MD11F fleets.

LAX772LR · Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:24 pm

Straight from the thread:

Quote:
This post does not reflect what our top management has in stored for our future fleet.

Yeah, this seems to be much ado about nothing.

Why would anyone order a 748i at this point, barring some mind-blowing cheap deal, which Boeing doesn't seem too interested in offering due to its desire to stretch the 77W production time frame

rampbro · Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
When the other Boeings are offering the same with better economics and lower operating costs, how can Boeing convince an airline to buy them.

Show them a picture. Heck, DRAW them a picture.

NYPECO · Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:26 am

It only looks like a speculation from whoever's in charge of the Facebook page. Nothing serious.

jah718 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:29 am

Would be great to see a 748 in BR livery. I have flown with them a number of times and they are just getting bigger and better. TPE could be a major hub in the future.

Quoting karadion (Reply 7):
747-800? What's that? Is that an A380-8?

I really dislike people who make comments like this, who cares? Why are their so many people like you here?

777Jet · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:42 am

How about a 747-8 'combi'

BR has a history with 747 combis...

Having said that, I don't see why they would order the 747-8.

Given that they are going for the 777F for frieght and already have a strong 77W fleet, I just don't see any place for the 747-8 in the BR fleet. Whilst they could probably get 747-8s quick and cheap, given that Boeing will be looking to sell more 77Ws to fill any production gap until the 77X arrives, they can probably also get more 77Ws quickly and cheaply too.

Quoting NYPECO (Reply 23):
It only looks like a speculation from whoever's in charge of the Facebook page. Nothing serious.

That's what I take the comment to mean...

It would be nice to see a 747-8 in BR livery though and any order would be good for the sad 747-8 program...

RWA380 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting karadion (Reply 7):
747-800? What's that? Is that an A380-8?

I'd be interested on what routes BR would fill an A-380 on besides TPE-LAX & some Intra Asia routes? Why isn't it possible to think there may be carriers that can use the 748i vs the A-380?

LH obviously thinks there is enough of a difference to have ordered both aircraft, and it seems they have found good missions for each type, so why would a carrier that could work with the economics of the 748i vs the 388, buy anything but the 748i?

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
how can Boeing convince an airline to buy them.

I can imagine that since the 748 line is just a year or two out from having the current pending orders built, without a few more orders, it's going to start winding down, so I'm sure they are interested in making as many as possible, as long as they are making money still. Because as we know with the 757 line, once the dyes are gone, they are gone for good.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 25):
How about a 747-8 'combi'

Cool idea, is this even an option from Boeing? I bet there are a couple of carriers that could use them, but it seems the use of combi aircraft is dwindling.

UA444 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:01 am

A combi would give the 747 a niche that it could exploit for sales. Hard to certify today, but not impossible. I'm sure KLM would give it a serious look.

CiC · Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:45 am

In my opinion BR and OZ are potential candidates for a Combi version.

According websources (incl. A.Net) KLM is in talks with Boeing for a 747-8M.
The 777-300ER has much cargo space, but it seems not enough for KL to replace their 747-406M. And if they convince B for a 747-8M OZ&BR might follow...

Maybe SA, too? What airlines would order a Combi?

And is there a potential for a 747-8C?
Airlines operating MAC charters really could use a -8C (Delta, Kalitta, Atlas, Omni...).
Also Airlines with seasonal changes in Pax&Cargo... (KE, LH, CX???)...

airbuseric · Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:20 am

Actually I see them ordering 747-800 Combi's. Also KLM.

KLM is closing down MP in due time, and losing maindeck capacity over the years, since the 747-400 combi is to be retired also over the coming years. But to keep customers satisfied, I can imagine that the 748 is a very serious if not only option for replacement with KLM. And other carriers, indeed BR, OZ, maybe CA, will order a few examples then as well.

Stitch · Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 26):
Cool idea, is (a combi 747-8) even an option from Boeing?

No.

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 29):
Actually I see them ordering 747-800 Combi's. Also KLM.

With the design and certification costs involved, I would imagine Boeing would need a not-insubstantial number of orders to justify the investment (either that or the average sales price would need to be a lot closer to list).

The 777-300ER, A350-1000 and 777-9 already offer significant cargo capacity plus the ability to carry more passengers. The only real advantage a combi would offer is for "tall" pallets.

S75752 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:39 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 27):
Hard to certify today, but not impossible.

It sounded pretty impossible based on how resistant the FAA is. I forget which parts it was that would make a combi impossible, I think it was the movable separator being against the rules, as well as a few other things?

I think a combi return would be a great thing and would absolutely be the savior of the 748, and I think it would also turn many cargo-only destinations in to passenger + cargo combi destinations. I always find it a bit sad when a cargo division of an airline has service to a passenger airport but the passenger division doesn't, and I think a capacity scalable combi could help remedy that.

aviationaware · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 29):
Actually I see them ordering 747-800 Combi's. Also KLM.

The 77W is effectively a 744 Combi. No need to go through the hassle of having the -8 certified as a combi version.

kanban · Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 25):
How about a 747-8 'combi'

OH the obligatory "let there be a combi" post.. with the probability of near zero, this comes up over and over as a "new idea"

Well maybe Iceland will buy a few freighters for fish transport..

WROORD · Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:27 am

I hope they buy it, their livery would look awesome on B747-8i.

777Jet · Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 33):
OH the obligatory "let there be a combi" post..

About what I expected...

dennys · Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:42 am

If that dream came true , i would be more than delighted . 747-8i in BR colours should be a Must .

CiC · Sun Apr 05, 2015 7:13 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 31):
With the design and certification costs involved, I would imagine Boeing would need a not-insubstantial number of orders to justify the investment (either that or the average sales price would need to be a lot closer to list).

In the 70ies Boeing came up with a Combi idea just for the two (?) Sabena planes, and they re-constructed these in 1974.
How about cost then???

Shortly after the conversion others have seen this as a great great idea, and many other airlines followed (KLM in 76, Lufthansa in 78/79...).

Correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't googeled, just taken out of my mind

777way · Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:59 am

What if there is a market for combi's just because its not being built because certain restrictions prevent it from being operated profitably dosent mean its a redundant concept, airines operated the 744E, others flew their 742 and 743 combi's well into the 2000s.

airbuseric · Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 32):
The 77W is effectively a 744 Combi.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 30):
The 777-300ER, A350-1000 and 777-9 already offer significant cargo capacity plus the ability to carry more passengers.

But no maindeck cargo capacity. And that is what customers of KLM are looking for. Horse transport, hightech medical systems..., they require maindeck loading and non of the types mentioned are capable of doing so.

777way · Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 39):

Some would argue to charter or fly them on a cargo aircraft, and theres Martinair for that.

Stitch · Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:17 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 39):
But no maindeck cargo capacity. And that is what customers of KLM are looking for. Horse transport, hightech medical systems..., they require maindeck loading and non of the types mentioned are capable of doing so.

As noted by 777way above me, that type of cargo would be carried by Martinair 747 dedicated freighters.

airbuseric · Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 40):
Some would argue to charter or fly them on a cargo aircraft, and theres Martinair for that.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
As noted by 777way above me, that type of cargo would be carried by Martinair 747 dedicated freighters.

Martinair is on it's way reduce the fleet dramatically, and the few 747's will not be able to serve all maindeck destinations for KLM. It is the limited maindeck capacity on so many routes that makes KLM an interesting choice for many cargo forwarders.

http://news.klm.com/martinair-cargo-to-reduce-fleet-by-june-2016

LJ · Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 41):
As noted by 777way above me, that type of cargo would be carried by Martinair 747 dedicated freighters.

The only problem being that they'll have only 4 of them in 2 years time which will not fly to Asia (hence why most of the combies stay around for a few more years).

Quoting UA444 (Reply 27):
A combi would give the 747 a niche that it could exploit for sales. Hard to certify today, but not impossible. I'm sure KLM would give it a serious look.

AFAIK 747Classic once mentioned that the minimum amount needed for Boeing to start production of 748i Combi was 20 units. However, I doubt that BR would order the 748i Combi as they rduced cargo capacity a lot lately (and thus there is no logic in increasing cargo capacity whlist you're reducing it at the moment).

celestar · Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:24 pm

I don't think BR would order the 747-800i version, may be the freighter someday.
They made a point to expand their aircraft number to just below 100 at some times.
With around 3 flights a day to LAX (or more), BR is taking the CX approach of adding more flights per day to destination. Though I would love to see a -800i in their fleet, that chance would be low.
Now, the interesting part is to see what they intend to do: 787 or A330 NEO or maybe even A350?
I think they made the mistake of having too many A330-200 and should have ordered the A330-300 like CI and CX.
Based on my friends' feedback, BR is really happy with the A321-200 though.
Just keeping my fingers crossed so that we can see more aircraft variety in Taiwan.

DocLightning · Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting kaichinshih (Reply 16):

IMO it was an extremely irresponsible act of the FB page administrators to say something like,
"who knows maybe we'll get the 747-8"
Not professional at all and extremely informal.

I agree.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 17):
Horrors! Informality on a social networking website!

Yes. Horrors.

BR's FB page is not an informal place for BR to joke around with its friends. BR's FB page is a front of BR's Public Relations department and it exists to represent this major international airline with billions of dollars in assets that flies people through the air in marvelous and complex machines at 35,000 feet near the speed of sound in safety and comfort.

I expect their PR department to issue formal, professional communications.

DocLightning · Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:12 pm

Later the same BR rep walked back that comment and said that nobody knew what Management had in mind for fleet planning.

Either way, if I were his manager, I'd be having a "please don't do that again" chat with him.

Stitch · Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 42):
Martinair is on it's way reduce the fleet dramatically, and the few 747's will not be able to serve all maindeck destinations for KLM.

Quoting LJ (Reply 43):
The only problem being that they'll have only 4 of them in 2 years time which will not fly to Asia (hence why most of the combies stay around for a few more years).

Then perhaps main deck cargo is becoming less and less a part of KLM's business model so investing in new combis would not be a wise economic choice and instead they can let that business go to someone else.

S75752 · Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting CiC (Reply 37):
In the 70ies Boeing came up with a Combi idea just for the two (?) Sabena planes, and they re-constructed these in 1974.
How about cost then???

There's also those 737 Combi conversions, those are pretty few too, aren't they? Particularly the classic ones.

I may be naive in my thinking about Combis, but here goes...

I'm certain that the market is there - in such a case I think Cargo and passenger operations would be consolidated significantly. Instead of an A330, an airline might just send a 747-8 or 777 combi, or in place of a 757 a 787 combi to destinations where one of those aircraft in a fully passenger config wouldn't be filled.

Or, not enough capacity to fill a whole A330 or 757? Send an A330 Combi or 757 combi -so you are never left with excess capacity. Just shove more cargo in! And you can meet any demand for any route.

So I think a combi resurgence could be revolutionary, if the FAA would allow them. I'm probably naive.

One such example is the PVG-SEA operated by China Cargo, China Eastern's division. If they had a combi, they could also have done a passenger flight to SEA combined with the cargo, instead of letting HU snatch it up.

dennys · Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:20 am

Sorry but to go back to The point , is BR willing the 747-8i ? Is this face book source suitable ?

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