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lhrnue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:42 pm

I suppose it was mentioned before, albeit I can't find it. Lufthansa has cancelled their 60th birthday celebration which was due to happen in April.
 
SamH123
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:02 pm

Only new thing that surprised me a little from the final moments: (http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774)

..is that Lubitz put on an Oxygen mask?

Can't really think why he would do that, but maybe it is not something of any interest.
 
AR385
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:18 pm

If such a video does exist, that is one thing I have no interest in watching, ever. I wonder why even a tabloid would mention its existence. Sure, sales, but even them have to realize certain things fall below the decency threshold, even for them.
 
cloudboy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting SamH123 (Reply 101):
Only new thing that surprised me a little from the final moments: (http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774)

..is that Lubitz put on an Oxygen mask?

Can't really think why he would do that, but maybe it is not something of any interest.

Mind you we are reading off a newspaper account, which may not be accurate, but...

If you are depressed and trying to kill yourself you are not going to do something that mellows you out. You might do something like that if you were trying to bring yourself down from a high. I still say this is adding up to a drug problem. Unfortunately we are never going to know.

Will this do anything to promote the idea of cockpit video recorders?
"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
 
morsecoder
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 77):
Here, if somebody uses a gun to kill his whole family on christmas day (yes, there's an aggregation on this date...) it's often not murder, but homicide - despite the decision to kill comes an hour before. An important criterion is malice.

It's that way here too. A number of factors are considered in deciding what charges to bring, and then the jury usually has the option of choosing lesser offences if they think it appropriate. Emotional-laden circumstances are treated differently than calculated crimes.

On the whole, though, the trend has been toward less discretion. One of the first major trials I covered was of a San Francisco politician, Dan White, (the equivalent of a city councilman) who shot and killed the mayor, George Moscone, and one of his colleagues, Harvey Milk. White showed up at city hall with a pistol, climbed through a basement window to avoid a metal detector, shot Moscone, reloaded then walked across the building to Milk's office and shot him. He was charged with first degree murder with special circumstances – including the assassination of public officials – that would have made him eligible for the death penalty. The jury found him guilty of voluntary manslaughter because his emotional state diminished his capacity to make an intentional decision to kill. He received a 7 year sentence, served 5 years, and then committed suicide a couple of years after his release. California law was subsequently changed to eliminate that kind of defence.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 77):
I think all the facts are still consistent with suicide, and a total neglect of the fact that he was taking other people with him. People can behave like that.

That's a fair and very charitable point. It's early days yet, but maybe the eventual question is what's best for the survivors. You're right to keep an open mind.
 
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anfromme
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 102):
If such a video does exist, that is one thing I have no interest in watching, ever. I wonder why even a tabloid would mention its existence. Sure, sales, but even them have to realize certain things fall below the decency threshold, even for them.

The problem with this crash in particular has been that so far, nothing at all has fallen below the decency threshold. We've had journalists in Haltern offering mourning people and passersby a fee for a soundbite. We've had the co-pilot's parents' house (and address) shown, we've had a photo of the co-pilot running a marathon all over the first page of a paper, face fully recognisable, his full name and the words "AMOK-PILOT" against it in giant letters.

That's pretty much as low as I've ever seen journalism go - quite a feat considering I already thought speculations in the media were worse than ever even before it was known that the co-pilot likely flew the plane into the mountain deliberately.

Quoting tonyban (Reply 98):
I hope that video never gets made public.

  
Indeed. Given the time the descent took, and the ubiquitousness of smartphones these days, it kind of figured that somebody would have taken photos or short films during the descent. But any such material should never ever be made accessible to anybody outside the investigation team.
If a German and a French paper were indeed able to watch said video, the authorities should review their procedures that are supposed to ensure non-disclosure (and possibly those to prevent theft from an accident site).

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 85):
Apologies for bringing epistemolgy into the discussion but Lubitz has brought us to this.

Not really; you quite happily brought this into the discussion yourself with statements such as the one quoted above. L. didn't crash the plane in the name of (or in protest against) a specific faith. His belief or non-belief in Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, hell, heaven, or the flying spaghetti monster is not a matter of public record.
Not that it would really matter even if it was.
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jouy31
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 79):
German criminal law applies, no matter where the crime scene is, for acts committed on a ship or airplane under german registration.

It doesn't mean that French criminal law does not apply. It applies, as the alleged crime took place in France.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 80):
Reminds me of my old air law courses :
- The country in which the crime happened takes precedence
- The country of registration has its say
- The nationalities of the perpetrators and those of the victims will be part of the investigation.

So. One could well see trials in France, Germany, Spain, the US,...

In general, the criminal trial would be in the country it happened : France. But if the Germans are not happy with the outcome, they are quite free to pursue the lawsuit in Germany.

Exactly.
 
DDR
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:15 pm

I agree that this video, if it exist, should not be shown. It's like 9/11 and the photos of people falling from the twin towers. Some things should not be made public.
 
kurtjeter
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 103):
Quoting SamH123 (Reply 101):Only new thing that surprised me a little from the final moments: (http://www.parismatch.com/Actu/International/Exclusive-The-final-moments-before-the-crash-736774)

..is that Lubitz put on an Oxygen mask?

Can't really think why he would do that, but maybe it is not something of any interest

Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to recall there is/was ? a rule tha tif one pilot left the cockpit above FL 180 the pilot went on oxygen as SOP. Is that right?
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:01 am

As to criminal litigation involving with this flight, the alleged perpetrator is dead but there could be very limited criminal investigations of persons at Germanwings and LH in Germany. It is possible Germanwings/LH could face violations of regulations with money fines, license penalties, be required to dismiss certain persons.
More likely will be civil litigation. Individuals may try to sue in Germany, France or their home country for limited compensation. As 3 American Citizens were killed, they are likely to civilly sue and can do so in a USA Federal court. Others may try to sue in US Federal Court if they find any connection in the autopilot, the security door subcontractors based in the USA or components made in the USA. Clearly the USA courts offer the possibility of huge judgments or at the least settlements due to the nature of our civil lawsuit system and compensation of Plaintiff's attorneys.
I would suggest Germanwings/LH offer a substantial amount up front in payments based on current treaties, as done with other airline disasters. That could temper, especially in the USA seeking of massive judgments and settlements. For some getting money up front for current needs or the loss of a primary family income source may be badly needed.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting na (Reply 81):
1. Lufthansa handed out some archive material about the copilot. This confirms the flight school was informed by Lubitz in 2009 about a past serious depression.

2. German tabloid "Bild" and French "Paris Match" report they have been shown an eery video (probably a memory card of a mobile phone) found on the crash site filmed in the rear cabin showing the last moments of the flight with the sound of the pilot banging at the door and screaming passengers. It ends when part of the plane hits something an the plane abruptly veers to the side.

Well we now now for SURE the guy really bunkered up and killed all pax and crew. No more guessing no more lets exonerate the ¨disabled guy since using an Oxigen Mask and donning it plus putting the ap on decent to less than 2000 feet need a lot of actions and time to perform, so a disabled guy HE WAS NOT.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 87):
Before we get too far along in this, can I remind people that all we have right now is the flight voice recorder. We don't even have the flight data recorder yet. We know the Pilot was banging on the door and yelling, we know the co-pilot was breathing, We assume, but we don't know for sure, that the co-pilot was even conscious or not. He could have intentionally tried to kill himself. He also could have just OD'd on something and passed out before he could unlock the door again. Let's wait until the facts are known first.

See above.

That sorry excuse for a human being killed 149 persons and ruined a lot more lives in the process.

TRB
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e38
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:02 am

This may have been answered in a previous post, but I had a question with regard to the duty schedule of the crew.

The press has reported that with reference to the first officer, "investigators found doctors' notes excusing him from work, including one for the day of the fatal flight."

Does anyone know if the crew worked this flight (4U 9525) scheduled from Barcelona to Dusseldorf originating on the morning of March 24, 2015 in Barcelona (overnight in Barcelona) or if they had originated earlier in the day in Dusseldorf (or elsewhere) and were working flight 9525 as a "turn?" If this was scheduled as a "turn" or "out-and-back" was this just a one day trip or was it scheduled as a multiple day trip?

Thanks.

e38
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:14 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 19):
those secrets have allowed tons of tragedies, like the unending saga of pedophile priests for example, because confession secrecy, heck even psychologists adhere to that , and in my case when I saw someone at risk by their actions or lack of, I would notify my superiors ASAP.

FO Lubitz behaved like many people who suffer from mental illness or neurological disorders. They find themselves stigmatized by their condition as nobody can tell they're sick and thus believe it's "all in their head". What this means is that they expect the person to resolve the disorder themselves without intervention. Imagine having cancer and being told simply to get over it, and if you didn't, it was all your fault. That's the way the ignorant treat people with mental and neurological disorders. It's incredibly callous and unfair, so we should understand when individuals try to keep their disorder a secret as the consequences are so devastating. FO Lubitz was a victim of his own attitudes about mental illness; he wanted to believe it was something he could simply get over and thus return to his job as though it were not an issue, but ultimately we all know that it was wishful thinking. If we all make the effort to show empathy towards those with mental illness, those who are sick will be more likely to tell others about their illness and hopefully get the support they need to combat it.
 
NAV30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:36 am

Apologies if this has already been posted, but our Daily Mail newspaper just published a transcript (of the CVR?) alleged to track the conversations in the cockpit and in the final moments, courtesy of Paris Match. Here is an excerpt:-

"The captain's voice can be heard as he tries to open the door: 'It's me!' The captain is facing a camera connected to the cockpit. Lubitz sees him on screen but does not react.

The captain grabs an oxygen tank or fire extinguisher in order to break down the door.No response from Lubitz. The captain yells: 'For the love of God, open this door!'

10:34am: A first alarm goes off, audible and visual: 'SINK RATE, PULL UP.' No reaction from Lubitz.

Through the cockpit door, the first sounds of passengers running in the aisles can be heard.

10:35am: The captain asks for the crowbar hidden in the back of the plane. Louder bangs can be heard hitting the door, followed by metallic sounds. The captain tries to bend the door with the crowbar.

10:37am: A second alarm is set off, audible and visual: 'TERRAIN, PULL UP.' Still no reaction from Lubitz. The captain yells: 'Open this f*****g door!'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-investigators.html#ixzz3W17sPjDQ
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Edited 2015-03-31 19:01:59]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 107):

I agree that this video, if it exist, should not be shown. It's like 9/11 and the photos of people falling from the twin towers. Some things should not be made public.

I agree with you in principle, but let's not compare apples to oranges. That was in the middle of a major urban area on live television - people had already seen it before more clear videos were released as part of the investigation.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 86):
There's no reason it shouldn't be fixed at least as quickly as the design was changed after 9/11, to account for those unintended consequences that the post-9/11 design didn't.

Adding onto that the secure door design isn't a static concept it was already modified a few times in the past to fix issues with the original design, adding a secure method to unlock the door makes a lot of sense.

Quoting cloudboy (Reply 87):
He also could have just OD'd on something and passed out before he could unlock the door again. Let's wait until the facts are known first.

Wasn't the news that the captain did try to use the existing code based override but the door was intentionally locked out. If the pilot was incapacitated by drugs the door would open with the existing logic after a delay. Alternatively which is also a possibility (that I don't think is the likely one) is that a drug/smoke/o2 deprivation induced delirium could cause a person to think they were pressing the switch in the unlock direction when they actually instead pushed it towards lock. (In either case the door logic is total fail, I bet you could train a dog or other animal to lock out a cockpit with no humans required)

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 93):
Actually, not so surprising. A memory card is very small and light and protected by the phone around it - ideal for surviving impact (but not for surviving fire)

MicroSD cards are the basically one of the highest density consumer available data storage device. If you filled a fedex plane with them you could transmit more data than the internet carries in one day. Given how it is already a tiny solid state flake sized unit surviving a crash is possible. (2 zettabytes roughly, https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/ )

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 95):
And you can rig a SD card reader quite easily if the card itself is bent but still workable.

You can't really bend a microSD card (which is typically what is in a cellphone) it is basically a wafer (silicon) in a epoxy fill direct wirebond to pcb with the connector plating, bypass capacitors, and test/diagnostic pads. All of which is quite brittle and would shatter/crack if you tried to bend it significantly, an unprocessed wafer with zero defects can be bent a lot more but trying that after die-cutting and all the processes is bound to introduce defects that make it shatter just like a pane of glass. The main protection is that the card has no gaps internally where the g-forces could damage it ( a hard drive would be ruined by the high g-forces even if the case was intact) and as long as nothing burned, bent, crushed the card and it somehow was thrown clear of the plane its very low mass would have made the impacts before it came to a rest very manageable.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-jrzsaT6ls&ab_channel=recoverfab ) Specifically excludes recovery if any cracks can be seen which would be caused by crushing/bending the card.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 96):
So the door is redesigned. And then the next time an airline employee brings down a plane it's because they had easy access to it through their job and were able to do something that no one considered a high-enough risk. What will be the solution when, say, a copilot gets up inside the cockpit on the pretext of pulling his laptop out of his flight bag, and while he's standing behind the pilot he strangles him with a garrote? No cockpit door involved; two-crew-members-in-the-cockpit rule adhered to. But now this guy, standing there alone, pushes the nose over and drops a plane full of passengers in the drink.

The point of re-designing the door is to not weaken the security it already offers but improve it. This can be achieved with a pooled system so that no one bad actor in the passenger cabin could abuse the door locking system.

Having the any person in the cockpit killing the other and having a door that can be locked allows them to crash into whatever building, land/ocean feature they want (They have minutes to hours to aim). Having any person in the cockpit killing the other and having a door which can be opened deprives them of the time/aiming ability in such a manner that their only sure bet is to crash immediately (Seconds instead of minutes to hours).

It is a significant improvement to eliminate all the varied cases where a malicious actor could fly into whatever they want with impunity vs. has only seconds to act least they risk being discovered and subdued. The door lockout logic enables a whole swath of unpredictable catastrophic scenarios and if fixing that reduces it to just crash immediately one known quantity then it is a very good improvement.

Cabin crew can already take over the cockpit just by asking to have the door opened nicely and that would by far be easier than attacking all the other crew members to get their pooled key-devices and visibly use an emergency only system which takes more time and far more risk than just asking for the pilots to open the door for a made up but sensible reason.
 
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alberchico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:49 am

Is Lufthansa now culpable for liability ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32138867
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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alberchico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
The problem with this crash in particular has been that so far, nothing at all has fallen below the decency threshold. We've had journalists in Haltern offering mourning people and passersby a fee for a soundbite. We've had the co-pilot's parents' house (and address) shown, we've had a photo of the co-pilot running a marathon all over the first page of a paper, face fully recognisable, his full name and the words "AMOK-PILOT" against it in giant letters.

That's pretty much as low as I've ever seen journalism go - quite a feat considering I already thought speculations in the media were worse than ever even before it was known that the co-pilot likely flew the plane into the mountain deliberately.

A nutcase who killed 149 people deserves no sympathy or consideration whatsoever   
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
aircatalonia
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:53 am

I wonder if the victim's family gave permission to the investigators to lurk into the victim's phone? And to leak the content to Bild and Paris Match?
 
hivue
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 118):
I wonder if the victim's family gave permission to the investigators to lurk into the victim's phone?

The authorities are conducting a criminal homicide investigation. I doubt they would need anyone's permission.

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 118):
And to leak the content to Bild and Paris Match?

It's probably a bit too charitable to call something like this a "leak." A "sale" maybe. It's likely money changed hands.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 119):
It's probably a bit too charitable to call something like this a "leak." A "sale" maybe. It's likely money changed hands.

With some timed exclusivity where the media gets a leg up on the official reporting or even comments. There should probably be an investigation into the leaky investigation.
 
kurtjeter
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:41 am

My question still pending about F/O donning oxygen mask. Was or is there not a reg that requires that when one pilot leaves the cockpit above a certain FL (180?)
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:33 am

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 112):
That's the way the ignorant treat people with mental and neurological disorders. It's incredibly callous and unfair, so we should understand when individuals try to keep their disorder a secret as the consequences are so devastating.

Maybe you did not read a few threads back, my thesis is about clinical depression, and my Masters also deals with the subject and I have worked on mental hospitals with the disease, that being said, its not ignorant on my part to think that in THIS CASE this guy not only suffered depression, but he also had most probably abuse and and external locus of blame, he basically hated everyone and only found acceptance by doing espectacular presents or feats to be accepted, the Audi he gave to his girlfriend is a perfect example.On top of that he gave a lot of RED FLAGS to LH training, hi employer, his girlfriend a who knows how many INCLUDING his doctors that were medicating him, HE KNEW he was sick, he knew and was in a lot of pain but he made sure he made a lot of innocent persons just miserable as him, try explaining to be understanding of his condition to grieving relatives of the victims... good luck.
A lot of people suffer from depression but they don't go out and kill 150 just because they are miserable.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 112):
he could simply get over and thus return to his job as though it were not an issue, but ultimately we all know that it was wishful thinking.

When you are so sick and have this kind of mental fixations, there is no getting over it, but the system should have some checks to avoid a person with this "problems" to be responsible of the lives of many.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 117):
A nutcase who killed 149 people deserves no sympathy or consideration whatsoever   


Just look at John Lennon murderer, now he can't get out of jail because there are a thousand nut jobs expecting him out of jail to kill him.... mental illness is not as rare as one would think, but this guy I agree does not deserve any sympathy, nor the Dolts who allowed him to fly...

TRB
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A332DTW
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting kurtjeter (Reply 121):
My question still pending about F/O donning oxygen mask. Was or is there not a reg that requires that when one pilot leaves the cockpit above a certain FL (180?)

I know the FARs say that if a pilot leaves his or her crewmember station when above FL350, the remaining pilot must don the oxygen mask. I assume the regulations are similar, if not same in Europe.
 
mika
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:05 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 102):
If such a video does exist, that is one thing I have no interest in watching, ever. I wonder why even a tabloid would mention its existence. Sure, sales, but even them have to realize certain things fall below the decency threshold, even for them.

There is no such thing as a decency threshold for that type of publications. People crave morbid details and they are happy to provide them. It would, unfortunately, surprise me if this video does not find it's way to the public sooner or later.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:12 am

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 93):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 89):
If this is true it's very surprising that a memory card has survived such a brutal impact.

Actually, not so surprising. A memory card is very small and light and protected by the phone around it - ideal for surviving impact (but not for surviving fire)

  

I'd be more surprised if memory card content didn't survive such an impact given how small and light the chip is and all the protection around it.

But, as you said, fire is a different story though...

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 90):
Lets be careful about such stories. It is possible, but we've seen similar claims before (AF447 etc). Usually it ends up being a rumour. Of course there is an exception, the Erebus crash, where a photo during the accident is believed to have been taken.

Antarctica sightseeing flight = lots of photos being taken, even whilst in the clouds...

As for GW, now that this has been said, I'd be more surprised it this story turned out not to be true. I would not be surprised at all if more that just one out of 140 or so pax grabbed their phone / camera out to record the Captain trying to break open the cockpit door. After all, this is YouTube era  
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alberchico
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 125):
Antarctica sightseeing flight = lots of photos being taken, even whilst in the clouds...

Evan the moment of impact was supposedly captured:

short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
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Schweigend
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:05 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 64):
Given Germany's history with Nazis and Stasi, it's no surprise they value their privacy....

Yes, let's not forget that, when talking about why today's German privacy laws are so.

Quoting AAexecplat (Reply 65):
The reason why people are focusing on the pilot's bio is that his selfish actions are so far from the German values of unity, acting in a way that benefits the greater community and discipline that it shakes the very foundation of those values. It crushes the peoples' pride in their discipline.

Germany will respond with changes to processes in the aftermath of this event. We Germans are not known to do things hastily...rather than that, we are thorough in general. After an exhaustive investigation, there will be changes. Among them will be a change in confidentiality laws for those who are in a position to do harm to a great number of people in their line of work. LH has already instituted a 2-person cockpit rule and federal laws will follow.

Give the Germans some time to sort this out. And to say that reaction would have been different if this had been an Iberia plane is frankly preposterous.

Thank you very much for this. I agree 100 percent.

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 93):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 89):
If this is true it's very surprising that a memory card has survived such a brutal impact.

Actually, not so surprising. A memory card is very small and light and protected by the phone around it - ideal for surviving impact (but not for surviving fire)

I am not surprised either. Back on 25 March in part 6 of this thread I said, "It is possible that some pax personal devices will be recovered in the debris, and they may contain photos, messages, and other information."

Quoting tonyban (Reply 98):
I hope that video never gets made public. I hate to think what those poor souls on board were going through. This is so tragic in more ways than one can imagine.

I don't want it or future ones made public either, even though part of me craves to see it.

We should get a written transcript with description -- that's all we need.

On 9/11, there were doomed passengers on AA and UA who made calls on their cellphones. Some were recorded -- those that went to voicemail or an answering machine. So far as I know, none of those recordings have been made publicly available. We do have transcriptions, however, and they suffice and are appropriate.

Quoting DDR (Reply 107):
I agree that this video, if it exist, should not be shown. It's like 9/11 and the photos of people falling from the twin towers. Some things should not be made public.
 
namezero111111
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:29 am

A DW opinion piece explains the confidentiality in Germany a bit:

http://www.dw.de/opinion-medical-confidentiality/a-18352171
 
lancelot07
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:35 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 127):
I don't want it or future ones made public either, even though part of me craves to see it.

The french District attorney has denied that such a video has been found. Not yet, at least.
And I agree, if and when such a video turns up, it should not be published.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 127):
On 9/11, there were doomed passengers on AA and UA who made calls on their cellphones. Some were recorded -- those that went to voicemail or an answering machine. So far as I know, none of those recordings have been made publicly available. We do have transcriptions, however, and they suffice and are appropriate.

There is a recording online (Youtube) of Flight Attendant CeeCee Lyles from Flight 93, as well as Flight Attendant Betty Ong's call to American Airlines reservations line after the hijacking. There are also some recordings of victims' 911 calls from the WTC that last up to the collapse. Having heard those recordings... I wish I never did... to say its haunting is mild. If this video, or any part of the CVR audio, is made public I will not watch or listen to it.

I have listened to CVR audio from other accidents, like Delta 191 and Comair 5191. As difficult as those recordings are to listen to, it's strangely easier to listen them compared to an event you know involved fowl play. There's something that makes my stomach turn in knots when you know it was done on purpose.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:23 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 117):
A nutcase who killed 149 people deserves no sympathy or consideration whatsoever

agreed, but his family should deserve it. They are humiliated enough as it is.....
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:25 am

For those who can read a very good article on the problem of sharing information by the Ärztemagazin.

http://www.aerztezeitung.de/praxis_w...hweigepflicht-brechen-muessen.html
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:20 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 105):
That's pretty much as low as I've ever seen journalism go -
Quoting jouy31 (Reply 106):
It doesn't mean that French criminal law does not apply. It applies, as the alleged crime took place in France.

I agree. That is why I wrote always. The legal proceedings will be quite a mess, but I am sure LH will try to compensate the victims out of the courts.
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 116):

Is Lufthansa now culpable for liability ?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32138867

Why should they from this fact alone? What matters is whether he was fit to fly during the last few years. Depression is not a condition that necessarily persists for a lifetime. And it is also not a condition that specifically predisposes to mass-murder. So why should the depressive episode in 2009 be an issue if he was fit to fly (according to the medical) in 2014-2015?

If there had not been a recent medical, or if this medical raised some issues but LH allowed him to continue to fly, this were a different ballpark. But a depression in 2009? I don't think so.

Security management 101: If there is no way to full rehabilitation, people will cover up, especially if there are severe punishments (losing the job) and despite potential severe consequences for others (accidents, malpractice). This is true in the operating room, in court, in school, and in the cockpit. Mental dysfunction cannot easily be detected from the outside. Without a totalitarian surveillance, there is little chance that external control will ever be possible at acceptable ethical cost.

Consequence: de-stigmatize, develop and communicate paths to full rehabilitation as well as alternatives within the company, continuously and professionally support those in need (e.g., employee assistance programme).

From this perspective, I think in principle it was a good thing that they allowed him back to work (as long as he was regularly checked), but every good principle can fail in sigle cases. And here it is, the very bad single case.
 
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EVAAIRBR076
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:49 am

The video appears to be fake, there is no video, says the investigators, quite sick actually these rumours that there was a video.

(sorry its in dutch) http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/2...1/__Germanwings_video__nep___.html

and english http://edition.cnn.com/2015/04/01/eu...nwings-plane-crash-main/index.html

[Edited 2015-04-01 02:50:57]
 
Backseater
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:53 am

Quoting rabenschlag (Reply 134):
but every good principle can fail in sigle cases. And here it is, the very bad single case.

Unfortunately we cannot simply assume that "the" bad case is behind us. We can subjectively believe that such a heinous crime cannot be seen again, we can keep a blind faith in a profession that has been such a role model in our western societies but objectively we just do not know the extent of the problem. Given the recurring stress induced by the need for faultless performance day after day throughout a pilot's career, are there others traveling along the same road? And if there are have they now come to their senses after vicariously living through the agony of the GermanWings flight?
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:00 am

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 135):
The video appears to be fake, there is no video, says the investigators, quite sick actually these rumours that there was a video.

Paris Match and Bild - while tabloids - are both not known to launch completely unsubstantiated claims. If the Head of Bild says in the CNN interview that he has personally seen the video and it is clearly from the crash, there must be something to it.

Just because the prosecutor doesn't have it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. He also asked the people in posession of the video to hand it to the prosecution......
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:03 am

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 137):
Paris Match and Bild - while tabloids - are both not known to launch completely unsubstantiated claims. If the Head of Bild says in the CNN interview that he has personally seen the video and it is clearly from the crash, there must be something to it.

Indeed. As much as I hate Bild, they are quite often spot on. It was Bild who came up with the BER delay first, just as an example.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:04 am

The News is old. What is new is that they found E-Mail exchanges dating back to 2009 which confirmed that L. had interrupted pilot training on his own request.

He applied new for Training with Lh flight School at Bremen, disclosing his health records including that he had depressions, he went through the whole application tour again, all physical and medical tests, as if he hadn't done the before and he was admitted to the School again.

He went through Pilot Training, successfully completoing and earning a Commercial Pilot licence. For the Interims time until LH could offer him a Job ha worked as FA- He successfully completed all Simulator Training, all medicals and whatever is needed to Keep the licence and he was 100% fit to fly, as Mr. Spohr said last week.

Generally, LH is, like any other company liable for the doings and omissions of ist employees. LH's insurers will have to pay. But proving negligence, or even criminal negligence will be difficult, the latter can almost be ruled out. The tests are not by Lufthansa alone, the LBA isminvolved and the PPL is issued by the LBA and not Lufthansa. Will the LBA, resp the German state now be sued as well? Hard to believe.
If everything was done by the book, and we can assume that this was so, and by the way LH is handling the matter, the company will come out of this tragic event keeping their good Reputation.

What will result from this tragic Event?

Chaning Cockpit door locking regulations should be high on the Agenda. I doubt however that the FAA will give in and accept a common sense solution that observes Murthy's law.

New applicants for pilots Training that ever had a mental disorder will not have a fraction of a Chance. Those who can hide will still succeed.

Data protection laws in Germany are a sacred cow here especially by the left wingers, will hardly be changed. We could have had a system where the chip on the health insurance Card is activated to carry more than just the personal data, a System which would transfer Information about sick notes automatically to the employer (still keeping the nature of the illness confidential) will be fought by the Greens and other red wingers.
Had LH known that L. received a sick note from his doctors, they would have send him back home when reporting for work.

Much if not all what contributed to the crash is beyond Lufthansas control . Much is based on false ideology instead of common sense.

[Edited 2015-04-01 03:59:52]

[Edited 2015-04-01 04:15:22]
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
rabenschlag
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 139):
Data protection laws in Germany are a sacred cow here especially by the left wingers, will hardly be changed. We could have had a system where the chip on the health insurance Card is activated to carry more than just the personal data, a System which would transfer Information about sick notes automatically to the employer (still keeping the nature of the illness confidential) will be fought by the Greens and other red wingers.

And left wingers like the FDP? Not to turn this into a Germany focused political debate, but I think that attitudes towards privacy laws to not easily map onto the left-right schema (which is defunct anyways). For instance, right wingers in Germany were eager to protect banking secrecy, perhaps fueled by the desire to cover-up tax-evasion crimes, whereas the left was all for lifting banking secrecy. Another example: we recently had a discussion about making the income of employees public. This was supported by unions with the goal to make gender differences in wages visible. Conservatives were chiefly in favor of income privacy.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 139):
Much if not all what contributed to the crash is beyond Lufthansas control . Much is based on false ideology instead of common sense.

And I'd plea for basing decisions neither on false ideology nor on common sense (which is often ok, but often dangerously departing from how things really are). Do a careful systematic analysis of all the evidence available (re. this tragedy, re. mental illness, mass murder, capability to fly, effects of different policies etc.), as scientifically as possible, and then use it for generating policies that optimize global, not local utility.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting EVAAIRBR076 (Reply 135):
The video appears to be fake, there is no video, says the investigators, quite sick actually these rumours that there was a video.

The investigators have not been entirely forthcoming and have fabricated things in order to "ease the minds" of the families. For example there is CVR evidence to contradict the early assurance that passengers were not aware of what was happening and death was instantaneous. Those assurances were given after the CVR was listened to but before more info was leaked. The CVR does show that some front of aircraft passengers knew early and all most likely knew near the end that there was a major problem. There was panic and screaming, and it also appears the aircraft wing struck terrain before the crash and caused a final dive, which means that everyone knew something awful was happening.

So just because the authorities claim something isn't real doesn't mean it isn't. Just means they don't feel like telling about it.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 141):
The investigators have not been entirely forthcoming and have fabricated things in order to "ease the minds" of the families. For example there is CVR evidence to contradict the early assurance that passengers were not aware of what was happening and death was instantaneous. Those assurances were given after the CVR was listened to but before more info was leaked. The CVR does show that some front of aircraft passengers knew early and all most likely knew near the end that there was a major problem. There was panic and screaming, and it also appears the aircraft wing struck terrain before the crash and caused a final dive, which means that everyone knew something awful was happening.

So just because the authorities claim something isn't real doesn't mean it isn't. Just means they don't feel like telling about it.

No they are doing their job (at least the ones that are not leaking everything) the content being leaked is confidential and the initial comments are based on the knowledge they have and the respect/care for the victims families (not an outright fabrication, just a well worded interpretation of the information they have). News agencies that get leaked information can carry out a more direct analysis (by publishing it all) and have a large incentive to make it as shocking as possible in as short a time frame as possible to drive earnings.

It is certainly possible there was a copied memory card (Judging by what they are saying if the video is real it has been copied by someone who is at the crash site, copying a video off a microSD card is easy and covert enough) and the passengers knew before the crash occurred and were screaming all the while but I don't think it makes much ethical/logic sense to open your investigation with everyone probably died in the worst possible way and here lets watch a video of it.

They haven't even finished recovery of the FDR or bodies. Also legally/technically speaking they are not supposed to talk about those details until an official preliminary report or some other document is prepared. (The don't feel like telling about it is how a criminal or serious investigation should occur to prevent the media from distorting the investigation or contaminating potential relevant witnesses before they can be interviewed)

[Edited 2015-04-01 09:36:07]
 
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cougar15
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting e38 (Reply 111):
Does anyone know if the crew worked this flight (4U 9525) scheduled from Barcelona to Dusseldorf originating on the morning of March 24, 2015 in Barcelona

yes they did, same Crew for 4U 9524 DUS-BCN ....
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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cougar15
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:34 pm

I guess the (only) good News in all this for Lufty is that the VC (Pilots Union) has become awfully quiet & no new strikes on the Radar!
Everyone was so concerned that they may strike again over easter! I certainly dont see that happening now!
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 144):
VC (Pilots Union) has become awfully quiet

not trying to be sarcastic, but LH was just handed a 300 million Dollar argument why they can't raise salaries or pensions or what not....
 
D L X
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 145):

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 144):
VC (Pilots Union) has become awfully quiet

not trying to be sarcastic, but LH was just handed a 300 million Dollar argument why they can't raise salaries or pensions or what not....

I think it would behoove both sides to table any labor discussions while more important matters (at least in the public eye) are dealt with.
 
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PW100
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 141):
The investigators have not been entirely forthcoming and have fabricated things in order to "ease the minds" of the families. For example there is CVR evidence to contradict the early assurance that passengers were not aware of what was happening and death was instantaneous. Those assurances were given after the CVR was listened to but before more info was leaked

The investigators have released very little info; most of the info was released by the public prosecutor's office, not by the investigators. And no., I do NOT consider the public prosecutor's office as investigators . . . I feel they do more harm than good interest of (aviation) safety when considering the longer term.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 141):
. . . .and it also appears the aircraft wing struck terrain before the crash and caused a final dive, which means that everyone knew something awful was happening.

This piece information was released at the first press conference by the public prosecutor's office, when they announced the suicide conclusion.
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
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breiz
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting tomlee (Reply 142):
No they are doing their job (at least the ones that are not leaking everything) the content being leaked is confidential and the initial comments are based on the knowledge they have and the respect/care for the victims families (not an outright fabrication, just a well worded interpretation of the information they have).

Tomlee, I must congratulate you on your repeated attempts to get people to understand that the investigators are trying to work in a human and considerate way.
I wish to all who want all nitty gritty details revealed never to be in the situation of the families of the Germanwings flight.
 
777way
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 14

Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:14 pm

I think the stuff being leaked out is deliberate.

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