Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

UsAir737 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:12 am

Hey all
Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order? Personally I could see an order for 10-15 more frames. I think they would nicely compliment the 339 and 359 which will be joining the fleet in the next few years. Thoughts?

tlecam · Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:19 am

What would Delta use them for that the 339/359 wouldn't cover?

Stitch · Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting UsAir737 (Thread starter):
Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

At this point, I expect it to be converted either into a 737 MAX or 777-9 order (or perhaps a mix of both).

Quoting tlecam (Reply 1):
What would Delta use them for that the 339/359 wouldn't cover?

The most obvious choice would be as a 767-300 replacement, as UA and AA have done. However, like UA and AA, I expect DL will replace their domestic 767 fleet with more frequencies using A321-200s and 737-9(00ER)s and will replace their international 767s with larger planes (as the A330neo, A350 and 787 are so much more efficient the extra seats have effectively no additional operating cost in comparison).

par13del · Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:20 pm

DL is going all Airbus to punish Boeing and the ExIm bank for assisting the ME3.

On an additional serious note, the widebody fleet new orders are all Airbus, if commonality means anything don't expect a new order for Boeing a/c, Stitch probably has the best option, conversion of the deferred 787 orders to narrow body a/c, possible even the MOM when that is introduced in the next few decades if ever.

skybird77 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:33 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):

At this point, I expect it to be converted either into a 737 MAX or 777-9 order (or perhaps a mix of both).

Stitch: You think they may hold out even longer and be involved in the launch of the MOM or NSA? I just wonder if the 777-9 may be too much aircraft for Delta. I am sad that we won't be seeing any 787 at Delta.

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:35 pm

Not having a smaller plane like 787 will only end up punishing DL. The 350 is more for trunk routes than any true "long and thin".

Something like DTW-HKG would've done much better if DL had the 787 to play with.

georgiaame · Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting SkyBird77 (Reply 4):
I am sad that we won't be seeing any 787 at Delta.

Yes, but... You can buy a DL code share seat today and fly a 787 to LHR on Virgin tomorrow. Infinitely better inflight service that Delta offers. But I agree. I don't understand the bug DL has up its corporate behind against buying long range Boeing jets. I would have liked to have flown on a DL 787 to somewhere. (And flying on a DL 739 with a full bladder is an interesting experience...) Same is true for a Delta 77W or perish the thought, a Delta 748. But then, I'm a guy who would go out of my way to fly an A343 given the opportunity.

scbriml · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:02 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
Not having a smaller plane like 787 will only end up punishing DL. The 350 is more for trunk routes than any true "long and thin".

If they need something smaller than the A350-900, then given their current orders, the A330-800 would fit the bill.

coolian2 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 6):
But I agree. I don't understand the bug DL has up its corporate behind against buying long range Boeing jets

I don't think they have one. It's pretty obvious if Delta felt the 787 would make them money they'd buy a bunch.

Unfortunately unlike the way it was sold (effectively!) by Boeing, it's not everything for everyone.

UsAir737 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:13 pm

As mentioned id see them fitting in on routs where 359 is too much A/C. They have a place, but whether or not Anderson sees the benefit... Hasn't been cancelled or converted yet. I think there's hope

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 7):
If they need something smaller than the A350-900, then given their current orders, the A330-800 would fit the bill.

The 338 range falls far short of the 787. It can get you from DTW to NGO but not to HKG without an extreme payload penalty.

UsAir737 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:33 pm

The reason the 330 exists at DL in such numbers is $$$. Don't get me wrong I think the 330 is great but less A/C than the 787 and that is reflected I. The discounts given

Stitch · Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:51 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 8):
It's pretty obvious if Delta felt the 787 would make them money they'd buy a bunch.

Delta seems to feel the 787 would make them money, but the A330 and A350 will make them money sooner (due to better availability).

roseflyer · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:03 pm

The 787 would work well in the Delta fleet. I think it all comes down to cost. Right now is not a very good time find low cost 787 production slots. In a few years, prices will probably go down once demand wears off, but for an airline like Delta that carefully manages acquisition costs, I don't think it is the right time.

I think Airbus was in a position to offer some incredibly low prices on the A330NEO due to low development costs. Airbus had a desperate need to get an airline with good credit and willingness to acquire used airplanes to commit to the A330NEO so that lessors are willing to let the airplane join their fleet. Leasing companies are apprehensive about low volume production planes like the 717, 736, 753, 748, MD90, MD11, A318, A345, A346, A380 etc because they have incredibly low resale value. On low production rate airplanes, leasing companies demand better terms or aren't interested. Leasing companies will offer better rates to airlines to push them towards 787s, 777s, and A350s because they know demand is solid over a 20 year life. There is some risk that Air Asia X might not be as successful as they wish with A330NEO, so Airbus needed someone like Delta to ensure adequate resale value who will happily gobble up any used A330 NEOs if they became available for the right price.

If Boeing is willing to match those low purchase prices from Airbus, I am sure Delta will buy 787s. The question is if Boeing is willing to sell 787s for that low of a price.

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
On an additional serious note, the widebody fleet new orders are all Airbus, if commonality means anything don't expect a new order for Boeing a/c

Of all the airlines in the world, I think Delta views commonality as least important. Their narrowbody fleet of 717, MD88, MD90, 73G, 738, 739, A319, A320, A321, 752 & 753 clearly shows that they will go after whatever airplane has the lowest acquisition cost.

[Edited 2015-03-31 07:10:42]

[Edited 2015-03-31 07:11:51]

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):

If Boeing is willing to match those low purchase prices from Airbus, I am sure Delta will buy 787s. The question is if Boeing is willing to sell 787s for that low of a price.

I don't think the original order NW made was a really bad price. The issue is probably that with every pushback of the delivery slots, the original favorable pricing terms expire and now Boeing is quoting higher and higher rates.

The 339+359 are good planes on their own, but it keeps DL at exactly the same modus operandi - "if it's not a trunk route, I don't have a plane to fly it economically"

xdlx · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:19 pm

Quoting SkyBird77 (Reply 4):

Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.
It appears the W is to much airplane for the network, and the A339/359 order reflects that premise.
The days whereby DL asked for Boeing to build an airplane ("764") are long behind us. With close to 80 frames of B763 to replace it will be interesting what they will do with the 788 deposit.

roseflyer · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):

Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore

Where did that rumor come from? The 777-200LRF is still common in production. Boeing will sell the 777-200ER or LR. The engines on the 200ER are not mass produced any more, so I imagine costs would be rather high, but they are in production for the 777-200LR.

bobnwa · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:50 pm

Quoting xdlxreply=15]Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.[/quote]
I am very sure that rumor does not come from anyone in the know at either Delta or Boeing.i
[quote=jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
The 339+359 are good planes on their own, but it keeps DL at exactly the same modus operandi - "if it's not a trunk route, I don't have a plane to fly it economically

I do not think that is Delta's modus operandi but your own.

seabosdca · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:51 pm

I really don't see why everyone is so eager to cancel this order or convert it into something else. Delta hasn't done so thus far, despite several opportunities. They could have locked in early 737 MAX pricing, gotten a fleet of dirt-cheap 738s to start the MD-88 replacement, or obtained late-build 77Ws for probably not much more than they're scheduled to pay for these 787s. They haven't done any of that.

Delta needs lots of small to midsize widebodies in the 2020s. In addition to the 767-300ER and 747-400 fleets, they will need to replace the 777-200ER fleet and (toward the end of the decade) the 767-400ER fleet. The current Airbus orders don't cover all of those needs. If Boeing cancels its 787s, they will need to order more widebodies from either Boeing or Airbus, likely at worse prices. Delta is easily big enough to operate 787s, A330s, and A350s side-by-side, all economically.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
The issue is probably that with every pushback of the delivery slots, the original favorable pricing terms expire and now Boeing is quoting higher and higher rates.

Even assuming this is true, Delta now has 2010 pricing on these 787s, rather than Northwest's 2004 pricing. That is still better than what they'd get on a fresh order today.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
I think it all comes down to cost.

And I expect the cost of the 787s they already have on order, as opposed to ones they would have ordered in 2015, looks fairly attractive. I expect this order to be fulfilled, although I have no idea which 787 variant(s) it will be.

[Edited 2015-03-31 07:53:25]

DLPMMM · Tue Mar 31, 2015 2:51 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):
Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.
It appears the W is to much airplane for the network, and the A339/359 order reflects that premise.
The days whereby DL asked for Boeing to build an airplane ("764") are long behind us. With close to 80 frames of B763 to replace it will be interesting what they will do with the 788 deposit.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
At this point, I expect it to be converted either into a 737 MAX or 777-9 order (or perhaps a mix of both).

Is there any deposit actually held by Boeing for the DL 787 slots of "indefinate delivery"?

DL has already stated in their Financial Statement that they may cancel the 787 order at any time without penalty, so I would think that there is no reason for DL to convert the order into anything.

Stitch · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):
Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.

That rumor is false on two points.

One, that Boeing will not offer the 777-200ER or 777-200LR. Both are still available for order.

Two, that Delta wants either plane. Boeing offered DL the 777-200LR as interim lift until they could get them 787-9s in the last RFP and Delta declined. So they clearly have all the 777s they feel they need at the moment.

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 17):

I do not think that is Delta's modus operandi but your own.

When's the last time you saw DL launch a true long-and-thin route that's beyond 763 range ?

If they had the 787, JFK-Asia and ATL-Asia would be a piece of cake.

frigatebird · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 10):
The 338 range falls far short of the 787. It can get you from DTW to NGO but not to HKG without an extreme payload penalty.

In real world terms, the 788 and A338 have about the same range. Boeings figures are for more optimistic than Airbus'. Airbus sometimes even publishes slides with A330's range according to Boeing methods -and they get about 10% extra range

Had an interesting discussion about this subject with Tommy1808 last year. We concluded both models were about equal in range.

That being said, I believe the 788 is a bit more efficient than an A338. Perhaps DL could use it if they conclude the A339 is a bit too large as their smallest widebody. AA did conclude the same after they decided the 789 was too large a 763 replacement in some cases, hence their conversion of part of their 789 order to 788s.

I don't think DL will convert their 788 order to 779s. 737MAX is certainly a possibility, but will the LEAP-X meet its promises?

Beatyair · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:37 pm

Delta like to test aircraft out before adding more.
They have orders for:
787-8 -- 18 frames
330-900 - 25 frames
350-900 - 25 frames

The will add to the frame that works best for them. They currently have 21 A330-300's and the have added 10 more. Plus with its partnership with Virgin, they will gain insight on the 787 before they even get one.
I would suspect that they will order more, because they have not replaced the number of seats that they had with the 747 and 767 retiring.

questions · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:45 pm

What is the MOM?

What is the LEAP-X?

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 22):

In real world terms, the 788 and A338 have about the same range. Boeings figures are for more optimistic than Airbus'. Airbus sometimes even publishes slides with A330's range according to Boeing methods -and they get about 10% extra range

Had an interesting discussion about this subject with Tommy1808 last year. We concluded both models were about equal in range.

For something like DTW-HKG, they could be using 787-9 instead of 787-8. The only plane that DL has on order for such a mission would be the 359. Even assuming it has similar CASM, DL would have quite a bit more seats to fill.

seabosdca · Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 24):
What is the MOM?

A vaguely rumored "middle-of-market" aircraft Boeing is supposedly looking at as a 757/767 replacement.

Quoting questions (Reply 24):
What is the LEAP-X?

The replacement for the CFM56 engine, which will be the only engine on the 737 MAX and one of two on the A320neo. It's rumored to be having serious problems meeting fuel burn targets.

redflyer · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 6):
Yes, but... You can buy a DL code share seat today and fly a 787 to LHR on Virgin tomorrow.

That's exactly what I've done a couple of times now when flying to LHR. Took the Virgin 787 out of EWR. I've done the same a few times when I was going to CDG and wanted to fly on the A380...Took the AF code share flight out of LAX. Inasmuch as I appreciate Delta's recent revamp of the interiors on their 767s, nothing comes close to the comfort found on these two planes. And with the A350 coming on line in a few years I'll actually be able to taste all of the newest flavors in the airline industry from the same airline. Am I sad that the 787 won't be seen in Delta's livery? Yes, but that doesn't mean I can't fly on her while still retaining my FF status with DL.

petera380 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:25 pm

Don't forget that Delta never ordered the B787, that order was inherited from Northwest!

karadion · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:35 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
That rumor is false on two points.

Correct! Boeing still offers the 77E. Delta just chose not to take up on ordering more of them.

eugdjinn · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:36 pm

I don't think Delta is in a position to cancel this order, I think they are on the hook, and I think they will take them. I do suspect it will be -9s and not -8s. But I think we'll see them delivered. The one big surprise that could be out there is to see them delivered in Virgin colors and sold immediately to VS. (LIke the 737-800s were.) Honestly though, I think Delta will watch closely as Virgin gains experience with the plane and figure out where they might fit in the Delta fleet.

I've wondered whether we'd see United's supposed order for the 10 777=300ER's that never really got confirmed appear suddenly as a Delta order and the true death knell of the 744s, but I was reminded that Delta's 777 pilots are the highest paid pilots in any US carrier. Too, only JNB and BOM ever really stretch or stretched the 777-200LR's range.

And I truly think its a mistake to ever confuse a decision at Delta as spiteful, "punishing Boeing" or in any way emotional. The folks inside Delta are a shrewd and careful group who make decisions based on a wide range of things, among them price, performance, long term maintenance costs, business need, etc. Their ability to rethink, upgauge, retask a fleet, respond to a need, and rebalance lift to meet requirements on the fly is what makes Delta the powerhouse it is. It's a monumental effort daily for the coordination center, TOC, etc, to shuffle the right aircraft into place, but it is a thing of beauty to watch them work together to solve the need when something unforeseen happens. I don't see it done days ahead, but see ripples of that planning as well.

I did see the results of a competitor's inability and unwillingness to do the same, and I can tell you, the difference is HUGE.

I see 787s in Delta's future, I cannot imagine them not flying with widgets on the tail.

Boeing778X · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
At this point, I expect it to be converted either into a 737 MAX or 777-9 order (or perhaps a mix of both).

Respect you greatly, but I must disagree in terms of the 777-9. I really do think the 77E/L is the biggest DL seems willing to go, and the 747-400s are beginning to go out. It doesn't fit with DL's "frequency" execution. Originally, I assumed that DL could maybe go for the 777-8, but no more. The 777X is not for DL.

I'm also fully convinced that the 777X also does not fit with UA.

If North American operated 777Xs is what we're looking for, look to AA and AC.

However, a 737 MAX order could be in store, perhaps to replace the MD-88s, older A319/20s and maybe even the older 737-800s.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):
Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.
It appears the W is to much airplane for the network, and the A339/359 order reflects that premise.

I firmly believe the A350-900s will replace the 8 777-200ERs DL currently operates.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 21):
If they had the 787, JFK-Asia and ATL-Asia would be a piece of cake.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that DL convert any 787 order to -9s. It would be smaller than the A359/A339s, and have the range for long, thinner routes, as well as provide as a replacement to older aircraft, including, perhaps, the 777-200LR, range permitting.

karadion · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 30):
I've wondered whether we'd see United's supposed order for the 10 777=300ER's that never really got confirmed

Actually United is still going for the 77W's. They just recently traded slots with Hainan Airlines.
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...iner-deal-is-extremely-clever.aspx

klkla · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:44 pm

In hind sight DL probably regrets deferring the order to 2020. But with that in mind I'm sure they still have the original deal negotiated by NW in place (maybe factored for inflation). DL would not have lost the deal NW negotiated because Boeing was at fault due to the delays in the program. DL will take their cheap 787's. They're just going to have to wait for them.

Boeing778X · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting karadion (Reply 32):
Actually United is still going for the 77W's. They just recently traded slots with Hainan Airlines.
http://www.fool.com/investing/genera...iner-deal-is-extremely-clever.aspx

Not sure if "The Motley Fool" is reliable and credible, but without going too off topic, I still don't see the point of UA getting the 77W when their first A350-1000 is 3 years or less away, and certainly at the expense of the 787-9.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 28):
Don't forget that Delta never ordered the B787, that order was inherited from Northwest!

DL would be ordering the 787 in the 2030s without it

[Edited 2015-03-31 09:46:59]

seabosdca · Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 34):
Not sure if "The Motley Fool" is reliable and credible

It's not, but the appearance of Hainan 787-9s in the firing order reported by NYC777 on his blog is.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 34):
I still don't see the point of UA getting the 77W when their first A350-1000 is 3 years or less away

If they are bullish on growth, they may feel they can use the capacity of both 777-300ERs and A350-1000s, and can profit from having lift in the very near future. The low pricing now available on late 777-300ERs and the high maintenance expenses now afflicting the 747-400 fleet (thanks to deferred maintenance and neglect during The Troubles) no doubt help the numbers pencil out.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 31):
It would be smaller than the A359/A339s

The 787-9 and A330-900 are (for practical purposes) exactly the same size. That's why it's easier to see a role for either 787-8s (straight 767-300 replacement) or 787-10s (high-capacity TATL) at Delta than it is for the 787-9.

[Edited 2015-03-31 09:54:54]

Boeing778X · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
If they are bullish on growth, they may feel they can use the capacity of both 777-300ERs and A350-1000s, and can profit from having lift in the very near future.

I would suggest that UA just modify 10 777-200ERs and begin retiring the 747-400. Besides, the 787-9s are arriving quickly, and those are terrific 77E replacements by themselves.

It's my opinion that UA doesn't need the 777-300ER.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
The low pricing now available on late 777-300ERs and the high maintenance expenses now afflicting the 747-400 fleet (thanks to deferred maintenance and neglect during The Troubles) no doubt help the numbers pencil out.

Sure.
But as said above, the A35Js are 3 years away, and they have 77Es that can be modified to a higher density layout in the meantime, instead of investing in a subfleet of new 777-300ERs.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
The 787-9 and A330-900 are (for practical purposes) exactly the same size. That's why it's easier to see a role for either 787-8s (straight 767-300 replacement) or 787-10s (high-capacity TATL) at Delta than it is for the 787-9.

I see. I suppose that reasonable.

What would replace domestic 767s? The A321s on order and the 737-900ERs?

What would replace the 767-400s? Would DL hang on to those?

redzeppelin · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:08 pm

I wish I could still find the link, but RA said in an interview a few years ago that they really liked the 78J. This was before the official launch of the 78J. I still remember that he called it the 787-1000 in the interview. I could honestly see them going with any combination of subtypes, but a mix of 788 and 78J with no 789s wouldn't surprise me. On a related note, do we expect to see any PIPs to extend the range on the 788?

747megatop · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 21):
When's the last time you saw DL launch a true long-and-thin route that's beyond 763 range ?

If they had the 787, JFK-Asia and ATL-Asia would be a piece of cake.

If they had the 787 DL would probably launch ATL-CTU (& other Chinese cities) perhaps similar to what UA did from SFO.
Also, ATL-SYD at 7454 nm is very much within the range of 787-9 if DL had those on order. That is also a long and thin route which DL would be eyeing probably to compete with AA/QF which feed their network out of DFW. DL can of course also do this on the A350-900 that they have on order.

PlanesNTrains · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting petera380 (Reply 28):
Don't forget that Delta never ordered the B787, that order was inherited from Northwest!

FWIW, so was their CEO

Still, not sure we'll ever see the 787 in DL colors.

-Dave

seabosdca · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 36):
What would replace domestic 767s? The A321s on order and the 737-900ERs?

Delta's already said as much. The ETOPS birds may keep flying to Hawaii for a little while yet, though.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 36):
What would replace the 767-400s? Would DL hang on to those?

They're good for another decade plus, so DL has a lot of time to make that decision. Either A330-900s or 787-10s would work well depending on how much capacity growth the airline wants.

Boeing778X · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 40):
They're good for another decade plus, so DL has a lot of time to make that decision. Either A330-900s or 787-10s would work well depending on how much capacity growth the airline wants.

I would think maybe the 787-10.

The 767-400s are mostly active on TATL European routes, correct?

roseflyer · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 38):
Also, ATL-SYD at 7454 nm is very much within the range of 787-9 if DL had those on order. That is also a long and thin route which DL would be eyeing probably to compete with AA/QF which feed their network out of DFW. DL can of course also do this on the A350-900 that they have on order.

Umm, ATL-SYD is not within the useful payload 787-9 range. The 787-9 useful range is closer to 8000 sm. Beyond that, there start being performance and payload limitations. LAX-MEL is closer to the max useful range. ATL-SYD 9200 sm and quite a bit longer than the longest route in the world. The 777-200LR is still the longest range airplane in the world. If DL wants to push ultra long haul routes, that is the plane to do it.

flyabr · Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:31 pm

Given the results of the fairly recent campaign...I can' t see DL with any 787s for a very long time. The selection of the A359 basically negated the 789's chances of ever seeing the light day in the DL fleet. The acquisition of the A339 for TATL also strongly suggests the 788 order won't come to fruition either. I think we're much more likely to see an A338 order to replace some of the remaining 763ERs. Other than that, perhaps the 752 replacement might be of some interest and that is wherre the 788 deposits will be spent!

tinpusher007 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 30):
And I truly think its a mistake to ever confuse a decision at Delta as spiteful, "punishing Boeing" or in any way emotional. The folks inside Delta are a shrewd and careful group who make decisions based on a wide range of things, among them price, performance, long term maintenance costs, business need, etc. Their ability to rethink, upgauge, retask a fleet, respond to a need, and rebalance lift to meet requirements on the fly is what makes Delta the powerhouse it is. It's a monumental effort daily for the coordination center, TOC, etc, to shuffle the right aircraft into place, but it is a thing of beauty to watch them work together to solve the need when something unforeseen happens. I don't see it done days ahead, but see ripples of that planning as well.

Yes but what is interesting is that Richard Anderson made the order for the 787 with NW. Then with DL he deferred it until 2020. Then when he made the big Airbus order, he claimed it was all because Airbus could deliver what they needed sooner, when the deferral of the 787 until 2020 was the likely reason Boeing was unable to deliver the 787s when he wanted them. He is a shrewd businessman for sure, but he sure stepped in it with some of his remarks about the ME3 recently. He does not like them and is not at all happy about Boeing building so many airplanes for them. He went out of his way to call the Boeing models unproven technology; the A350 and to some extent the A339 are unproven as well. Just my opinion, but I think politics are definitely at play here. That said, the A350 looks like a great product but the A339 seems like a waste compared the 78J. Again, just my opinion.

seabosdca · Tue Mar 31, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 41):
The 767-400s are mostly active on TATL European routes, correct?

The longest route they've been flying recently is PDX-AMS. Everything else is ATL/DTW/JFK transatlantic with a heavy focus on LHR. Any current widebody can fly those routes, so low per-seat cost is good.

747megatop · Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:25 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 42):
The 787-9 useful range is closer to 8000 sm.

Could you please elaborate when you say "useful" range? Since the 787-9 range is advertised as 8300nm in a 3 class configuration carrying 280 passengers; isn't DFW-SYD at 7454 nm very much possible?

jetblue1965 · Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 46):

Could you please elaborate when you say "useful" range? Since the 787-9 range is advertised as 8300nm in a 3 class configuration carrying 280 passengers; isn't DFW-SYD at 7454 nm very much possible?

I think it's 8300nm ESAD. So by the time you factor in westbound winds, the 787-9 can *just* reach SYD with a bit of payload penalty.

mayor · Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 39):
FWIW, so was their CEO

Actually went to United Health Care after NW.

Quoting tinpusher007 (Reply 44):
Yes but what is interesting is that Richard Anderson made the order for the 787 with NW. Then with DL he deferred it until 2020.

I'm sure he didn't make those decisions all by himself with either carrier.

LAX772LR · Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 6):
I don't understand the bug DL has up its corporate behind against buying long range Boeing jets.

Indeed... it's tough to understand what doesn't exist.

Quoting UsAir737 (Reply 11):
Don't get me wrong I think the 330 is great but less A/C than the 787 and that is reflected I. The discounts given

Why do you assume:
1) that "more" aircraft is always what's in the interest of a particular purchase decision
2) that you have any idea what, if any, discount any particular airline receives on an A330 purchase-- you don't.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 38):
If they had the 787 DL would probably launch ATL-CTU (& other Chinese cities) perhaps similar to what UA did from SFO.

Not a chance in hell of that happening, LOL. ATL can't even make first-tier Chinese cities (e.g. PVG) work, much less third.

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