Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
redzeppelin
Posts: 1195
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:30 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:35 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 37):
I wish I could still find the link, but RA said in an interview a few years ago that they really liked the 78J.

Found it. Two years ago this month:
http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000154946

Interesting discussion about the refinery. 787 discussion starts at 3-minute mark. The best quote comes at about 3:30:
Question: "Would you order it (the 787) today?"
RA: "I would take a 787-1000 if it were ready for production... If they won the competition with Airbus against the A350, I would buy a 787 at some point in the future."

[Edited 2015-03-31 13:40:32]
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 49):
Not a chance in hell of that happening, LOL. ATL can't even make first-tier Chinese cities (e.g. PVG) work, much less third.  

If DL were to launch thinner Asia routes from the Eastern US on 787s it would almost certainly be from DTW.
Now you're flying smart
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 39):
FWIW, so was their CEO

Actually went to United Health Care after NW.

Fair enough, though my version sounded catchier.  

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Two, that Delta wants either plane. Boeing offered DL the 777-200LR as interim lift until they could get them 787-9s in the last RFP and Delta declined. So they clearly have all the 777s they feel they need at the moment.

If DL felt they needed 777's there are many readily available on the secondary market, especially as the 359and 787-9's roll off the production line in greater numbers.

I would look to Emerites as a potential source if the really wanted commonality in more 777's but realistically I think DL is content with the orders they have in place.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
bcbhokie
Posts: 194
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 7:30 am

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:27 pm

It seems as though at some point Delta is going to need a more appropriate 767-300 replacement for thin international routes, particularly when you look at the new Seattle hub.

Delta's stated publicly that they see the A330-300 and A330-900neo orders as 767 replacements, and that the A350-900 is the 747 replacement. But there are huge seat gaps for both, and I'm not buying that the 330 is sufficient to fully retire the 767. In DL configuration:

A330-300 - 293 seats (replaces 767-300 - 226 seats)
A330-900 - 293 seats (replaces 767-300 - 226 seats)
A350-900 - 321 seats (replaces 747-400 - 376 seats)

On a route like SEA-HND, where Delta is having trouble filling a 767 as it is, the A330 is going to simply be too much airplane.

In a pretty typical configuration, the 787-8 would land somewhere very close to the 767-300 in seat count. ANA configures theirs to 222, UA to 219 - it's pretty reasonable to expect Delta would be similar. The 787-8 makes a much better 767 replacement for thin Asian routes than any of the Airbus aircraft they currently have on order.

The trick is going to be acquisition costs. The very routes that the 788 would serve well are routes that are struggling, and the capital expenditure of new aircraft to support them is going to be difficult to justify at current fuel costs.

In another thread, another poster pointed out the 787-8 order book is a little weak and that many airlines taking it are smaller, less well known carriers. It wouldn't surprise me if Delta opportunistically picks up 787-8 aircraft at some point - but I'm guessing it will be through opportunistic used aircraft purchases from failing operators, not through the orders currently on the books with Boeing.

It's pretty easy to imagine a combo deal where Boeing arranges for DL to take aircraft off their hands from another operator in conjunction with discounts on a few new-build frames too, though...

Just my $0.02.

[Edited 2015-03-31 14:29:31]
 
odysseus9001
Posts: 77
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:02 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Tue Mar 31, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45):
The longest route they've been flying recently is PDX-AMS. Everything else is ATL/DTW/JFK transatlantic with a heavy focus on LHR. Any current widebody can fly those routes, so low per-seat cost is good.

My wife is flying on a DL 767-400ER ATL-LIM at this very moment, so the 400s do get to South America as well. I flew on this route for many years and it has shifted between the 400s, 300s, 330s, and even the 777 once.

[Edited 2015-03-31 16:53:15]
 
User avatar
DeltaMD90
Posts: 8928
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:30 am

The 787 will fly with Delta, my prediction. I think their order is definitely a bargaining chip, maybe for other Boeings, maybe they'll take them. But eventually, I see DL getting some. DL is so large they've been able to right size their fleets.
 
UsAir737
Topic Author
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:26 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:36 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 56):

I agree. Richard Anderson knows his stuff and will realize a need and they will fly with a widget in the tail!
Long live US/ HP the airline that took over the world!
 
YYZAMS
Posts: 236
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:54 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:01 am

I am glad DL doesn't have the 787. I find their a330 and 767 much more comfortable in coach due to the seat arrangement of 2 by the window then aisle. The 777 seems so cramped and don't get me started on the 737 or 757. I wonder how the new a330neo and a350 will be configured?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27461
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:12 am

Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 58):
I wonder how the new a330neo and a350 will be configured?

2+4+2 and 3+3+3, respectively.
 
UsAir737
Topic Author
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:26 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 59):

I'm a big fan of 2-4-2
Long live US/ HP the airline that took over the world!
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting odysseus9001 (Reply 55):
I flew on this route for many years and it has shifted between the 400s, 300s, 330s, and even the 777 once.

LIM does an absolute f#ck-ton of cargo (by volume) for DL.... it was one of the first intercon routes for DL's 764ERs, even when they were still in domestic configuration, for that reason.


Quoting YYZAMS (Reply 58):
The 777 seems so cramped

Meh, that's more just your imagination.

DL is one of the few remaining airlines who still fly the 772 nine-across, and the seats on its 772s are wider than both their A330s and 767s by more than a half-inch.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:25 am

Do you think the economics of the 787 would improve the SEA-HND balance sheet?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
User avatar
northwestEWR
Posts: 1974
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:45 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting m404 (Reply 62):
Do you think the economics of the 787 would improve the SEA-HND balance sheet?

How could it not? Similar capacity but a reduction in operating costs... I suppose you could argue that the ownership costs are a factor but it should still be an overall reduction in operating cost.

Delta will take the 787. I suspect they will also take -8s and -9s. The upcoming Airbus A330NEO and A350s are only a drop in the bucket in terms of replacement capacity without any expansion. Delta will also be expanding. The 787 will be a part of DL's fleet.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Does anyone see a future for the DL 788 order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting m404 (Reply 62):
Do you think the economics of the 787 would improve the SEA-HND balance sheet?

Doubtful, for two reasons:
1) It wouldn't address the root problem, which is the horribly-timed slots.
2) Sure they're efficient, but they also cost money, whereas the 767s are paid.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:11 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45):
Everything else is ATL/DTW/JFK transatlantic with a heavy focus on LHR. Any current widebody can fly those routes, so low per-seat cost is good.

Unless they changed the routes to exclusive TATL, I was flying on 764's to GRU in 2013.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
panamair
Posts: 4367
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:24 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 65):
I was flying on 764's to GRU in 2013

GRU still gets the 764 but only from JFK. Both ATL flights and the DTW flight are now 763ERs.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 45):
Everything else is ATL/DTW/JFK transatlantic with a heavy focus on LHR.

764 routes this summer will be:

JFK-NCE
JFK-VCE
JFK-MAD
JFK-GRU
BOS-CDG
BOS-AMS
ATL-LHR
ATL-AMS
ATL-MAD
ATL-FRA
ATL-MUC
ATL-DUS
ATL-GIG
DTW-LHR
DTW-AMS
DTW-FCO
MSP-LHR
SEA-AMS
 
DTWPurserBoy
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:33 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:48 pm

Quoting m404 (Reply 62):
Do you think the economics of the 787 would improve the SEA-HND balance sheet?

I think the A330-200 would work especially well if a few rows were removed to give coach passengers 34" pitch. It would be a great sales tool and serve as an incentive on the SEA-HND market.

The desirability of HND flights was over-estimated IMHO. Aside from the Japanese carriers are any American airlines flying into HND showing a profit? I would love to see some load figures.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
flyDTW1992
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:04 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 66):
764 routes this summer will be:

DTW-AMS is a 744 as of right now, is that a short term upgauge?
Now you're flying smart
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:56 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 67):
I think the A330-200 would work especially well if a few rows were removed to give coach passengers 34" pitch.

....they've already done that with their Economy Comfort offering.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
deltairlines
Posts: 7194
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting flyDTW1992 (Reply 68):
DTW-AMS is a 744 as of right now, is that a short term upgauge?

DTWAMS has multiple frequencies. I'm seeing it as a A330-200, A330-300, 747-400 and 767-400 this summer (four daily frequencies).
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5392
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:13 pm

I love how Delta, the carrier that has basically every type of western aircraft produced in the last 30 years in it fleet, can't operate A350s and 787s.

Anderson looks for the best deal, if Boeing offers a better deal the next time around then I bet Delta goes 787. Still plenty of 763s that will need replacing. (and then later in life A330s, 777s and 764s.)

Quoting panamair (Reply 66):
GRU still gets the 764 but only from JFK. Both ATL flights and the DTW flight are now 763ERs.

FWIW one of the two ATL-GRUs generally goes 764 in the northern winter.

Quoting m404 (Reply 62):

yes.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5680
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting xdlx (Reply 15):

Rumor has it DL wanted more 77E & or LR and as we all know Boeing has decided not to offer it anymore.

They are not offering the 77E; but as far as I know they are still offering the 77L. All the major components are common with the 77W and the 77F, both of which are most definitely still on offer. But the 77L is much less efficient than the A350, the 787, and the 777X, so I cannot see them ordering it unless they needed immediate lift, which I do not believe that they do at this point.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 19):

Is there any deposit actually held by Boeing for the DL 787 slots of "indefinate delivery"?

DL has already stated in their Financial Statement that they may cancel the 787 order at any time without penalty, so I would think that there is no reason for DL to convert the order into anything.

I would imagine there is a substantial deposit, but because of the delays DL can get it back when and if they cancel. The fact that they have not done that is significant; I think they still want the planes, but not right away. The reason, as I understand it, why they went all Airbus on the last order was delivery, pure and simple. But DL probably has the most diversified fleet of any airline, and do not seem to be in a hurry to simplify it any time soon, so I suspect that they still see a place for the 787. Whether or not they stick to the -8 is another question; I can easily see them changing to the -9 or -10. I suspect that these orders are still at the original price, which I am sure is much lower than the going price today, and RA, being the shrewd operator that everyone says that he is, is not going to let them slip away. And if changing them to the -9 or -10 loses the advantageous pricing then RA will stick with the -8s.

Quoting karadion (Reply 29):

Correct! Boeing still offers the 77E. Delta just chose not to take up on ordering more of them.

But just try to order some. I understand one airline (DL?) wanted to, and was quoted a price near list. Boeing would much rather build the 77L at this point.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 72):
But the 77L is much less efficient than the A350, the 787, and the 777X

Sort of a sweeping statement. Put either of the first on a flight like ATL-JNB, and I doubt it holds true in all cases.

And considering that the latter hasn't been built, or IINM, hasn't even hit design freeze yet.....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5680
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 73):

Sort of a sweeping statement.

If it is not true, then why is Boeing developing the 778 at enormous expense? The 77L and 77W were superb planes for their generation, but they have now been surpassed. Boeing HAD to do major improvements (and just re-engining was nowhere nearly enough) to keep them competitive. The only reason that anyone will buy them now is availability; if they can wait, they will take one of the other choices. Yes, the 77L still has the most range of any production airliner, but that is not the same as saying it is more economical than the alternatives; it clearly is not.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:46 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 74):
If it is not true, then why is Boeing developing the 778 at enormous expense?

I have every reason to believe the 778 will be a more efficient platform than the 77L once it actually exists, but to what extent (and how that'll affect its market desirability) we really don't know, so don't really see the point of using it as a standard of comparison.


Quoting SEPilot (Reply 74):
but that is not the same as saying it is more economical than the alternatives; it clearly is not.

I love though how you completely ignored the premise of what I was saying: not that there aren't plenty of situations where the 787/A350 are more efficient for operations (there clearly are), but that to say such a thing as if it were always the case for every application is indeed a sweeping statement.

The 77L is a niche aircraft, and its utility relative to another platform has always been and will always be limited, but there are a few routes where their overall efficiency might not grant the revenue-garnering capability of the former's performance: most notably ATL-JNB, but also Deep S.Am - DXB, USA-ADD, USA-BOM, etc.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 74):
then why is Boeing developing the 778 at enormous expense?

how do you figure the "enormous expense"? The 777-8 comes out AFTER the 777-9. Boeing is developing 5 test -9 aircrafts vs 2 -8's. The cost is little especially since the -8 is to replace the 777F. Most if not all of the change incorporation aircrafts are going to be -9's especially prior to EIS.
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:32 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 74):
If it is not true, then why is Boeing developing the 778 at enormous expense?

Here's an even bigger question.

Exactly HOW is Boeing developing the 777-8 a, quote unquote, "Enormous Expense?"

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 72):
But the 77L is much less efficient than the A350, the 787, and the 777X, so I cannot see them ordering it unless they needed immediate lift

I don't see them ordering anymore, period.

Quoting karadion (Reply 76):
The 777-8 comes out AFTER the 777-9. Boeing is developing 5 test -9 aircrafts vs 2 -8's. The cost is little especially since the -8 is to replace the 777F. Most if not all of the change incorporation aircrafts are going to be -9's especially prior to EIS.

Supposedly a 777F replacement, but yes.

Question answered for SEPilot.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 77):
Supposedly a 777F replacement, but yes.

No, it will be the 777F replacement.
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting karadion (Reply 78):
No, it will be the 777F replacement.

Oh, of course, but Boeing has yet to announce a freighter version of the -8, which probably wouldn't be for several more years, at least.

Boeing also stated that they'd eventually release a 787F (I'd suspect the -9) and that has yet to happen. That's why I said "supposedly."
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:21 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 79):

Right.... You do understand that they will stop manufacturing metal wings? By 2023, the entire manufacturing supply chain will be 100% composite wings. It's not an assumption, it's a foregone conclusion.
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting karadion (Reply 80):
You do understand that they will stop manufacturing metal wings? By 2023

I'm assuming with the departure of the 767 from production?

Will the MAX have composite wings at that time, or will the NSA be in the works by then?

Quoting karadion (Reply 80):
By 2023, the entire manufacturing supply chain will be 100% composite wings. It's not an assumption, it's a foregone conclusion.

I have no reason to doubt you. Thanks for that information by the way, I did not know that.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
karadion
Posts: 1020
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 8:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:32 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 81):
I'm assuming with the departure of the 767 from production?

What? No, the line does not terminate for a long time. It's going to stay in production for more than a decade because the KC-46 contract if going ahead as planned especially with KC-Y supposedly ordering more KC-46's will keep the production line cranking out at least 17 planes per year. The USAF expects to order 179 KC-46 under KC-X. The RFP for KC-Y is not yet out.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 81):
Will the MAX have composite wings at that time, or will the NSA be in the works by then?

Nope. The supply chain for the 737 program and the 777 program are two different things. As for NSA, your guess is as good as mine.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3698
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:36 am

What I find strange with DL's strategy is that for an airline so heavily dependent on small widebodies - a large fleet that is not new anymore with some very close to retirement - they have no small widebodies on order except for the 18 788s that will likely never be built. You can't kick the can down the road forever.
 
User avatar
Boeing778X
Posts: 3268
Joined: Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:55 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:47 am

Quoting karadion (Reply 82):
What? No, the line does not terminate for a long time. It's going to stay in production for more than a decade because the KC-46 contract if going ahead as planned especially with KC-Y supposedly ordering more KC-46's will keep the production line cranking out at least 17 planes per year. The USAF expects to order 179 KC-46 under KC-X. The RFP for KC-Y is not yet out.

Forgive me, but I just realized that we were discussing about the 777, and not system wide. My apologizes.

Really nice to see that the 767 stay at it for that long!

Quoting karadion (Reply 82):
As for NSA, your guess is as good as mine.

Some guessed around 2030, but I'd suggest they begin work on it probably after the 737 MAX 7 rolls out late decade, with EIS perhaps in the 2025 range.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 83):
What I find strange with DL's strategy is that for an airline so heavily dependent on small widebodies - a large fleet that is not new anymore with some very close to retirement - they have no small widebodies on order except for the 18 788s that will likely never be built. You can't kick the can down the road forever.

Very true, but still, 18 787-8s could prove to be very useful.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5680
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 75):
I have every reason to believe the 778 will be a more efficient platform than the 77L once it actually exists, but to what extent (and how that'll affect its market desirability) we really don't know, so don't really see the point of using it as a standard of comparison.

The 77L has not been exactly selling like hotcakes, because its economics, while good, are not as good as the alternatives. Very few airlines need its extreme range, and most, in fact, find the 77W range adequate and hence much more profitable.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 75):

The 77L is a niche aircraft, and its utility relative to another platform has always been and will always be limited, but there are a few routes where their overall efficiency might not grant the revenue-garnering capability of the former's performance: most notably ATL-JNB, but also Deep S.Am - DXB, USA-ADD, USA-BOM, etc.

How many 77L's are flying those routes? Not many. The only one I know of is DL flying ATL-JNB.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1815
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 70):
DTWAMS has multiple frequencies. I'm seeing it as a A330-200, A330-300, 747-400 and 767-400 this summer (four daily frequencies).

4 different aircraft daily on one route. Cool!   

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 83):
What I find strange with DL's strategy is that for an airline so heavily dependent on small widebodies - a large fleet that is not new anymore with some very close to retirement - they have no small widebodies on order except for the 18 788s that will likely never be built. You can't kick the can down the road forever.

Agreed. And look at this quote from BCBHokie's post:

Quoting BCBHokie (Reply 54):
Delta's stated publicly that they see the A330-300 and A330-900neo orders as 767 replacements, and that the A350-900 is the 747 replacement. But there are huge seat gaps for both, and I'm not buying that the 330 is sufficient to fully retire the 767. In DL configuration:A330-300 - 293 seats (replaces 767-300 - 226 seats)A330-900 - 293 seats (replaces 767-300 - 226 seats)A350-900 - 321 seats (replaces 747-400 - 376 seats)

So, instead of a 150 seat gap (226 for the 763 and 376 for the 744) the seat gap will only be 28 seats. And I don't even menbtion the 752, which DLuses on some TA routes. I realise DL finds the 744 too large an aircraft, but I do believe the A339 is too large as DL's smallest widebody.

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 84):
but still, 18 787-8s could prove to be very useful.

  
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,346,359,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
User avatar
tlecam
Posts: 1501
Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:38 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 66):
BOS-CDG
BOS-AMS

THanks for posting the list. I enjoy flying the 764, both because of the ability to board from L2 (or support L1 and L2 boarding at airports that have the jet bridges to support that) and for the 2-3-2 seating in coach.

These flights are interesting. At AMS, the 764 replaces the 332. This is a slight upgauge in terms of seats - I believe it's 6 more business and nets 6 more economy seats (4 fewer economy plus but 10 more economy). The 333 remains.

On the CDG flight, this has gone from Delta flying a 757-763ER-764ER in just two years. It's still seasonal and flies in addition to the AirFrance flights, which are a 747 and a 332 respectively this summer. In the winter, only an AirFrance 772 typically runs on the route. I wonder if DL will ever get to the point where they can run a flight year round to CDG.
BOS-LGA-JFK | A:319/20/21, 332/3, 346 || B:717, 735, 737, 738, 739, 752, 753, 762, 763, 764, 787, 772, 744 || MD80, MD90
 
deltal1011man
Posts: 5392
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:17 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 83):
What I find strange with DL's strategy is that for an airline so heavily dependent on small widebodies - a large fleet that is not new anymore with some very close to retirement - they have no small widebodies on order except for the 18 788s that will likely never be built. You can't kick the can down the road forever.

Except they do have a replacement for 25 763s.

25 339s will come in, replace 763s and 764s, those 764s will be used to replace some 763s.

The rest of the fleet will be worried about later.

Another RFP will come for the rest of the 763 fleet. (and possibly the 764 fleet)

[Edited 2015-04-02 07:38:19]
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 27461
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 83):
What I find strange with DL's strategy is that for an airline so heavily dependent on small widebodies - a large fleet that is not new anymore with some very close to retirement - they have no small widebodies on order except for the 18 788s that will likely never be built. You can't kick the can down the road forever.

The latest generation of "medium sized" widebodies (A330-900, A350-900, 787-9) have trip costs close enough to their smaller sisters (A330-800, A350-800, 787-8) that an airline will now generally choose the larger model as it offers better revenue generation.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 13571
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

RE: Does Anyone See A Future For The DL 788 Order?

Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 85):
Very few airlines need its extreme range, and most, in fact, find the 77W range adequate and hence much more profitable.

No one's arguing otherwise. However, on the limited number of routes when they could use that performance, no other aircraft can step in and do it with similar economics. Hence, again, why your statement was indeed sweeping.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 85):
How many 77L's are flying those routes? Not many. The only one I know of is DL flying ATL-JNB.

All of the examples given are routes where DL/ET/EK/AI fly their 77Ls (BOM sometimes via DEL, but still).
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos