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Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:58 am

Please continue the discussion here as posts have reached over 220

Air Canada Landing Accident At Halifax (by AirCanadaA330 Mar 28 2015 in Civil Aviation)
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737tdi
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:56 am

Thanks to whoever you believe in for the lack of deaths/injuries in this landing. It is surely a tragedy avoided. I do have to say no thanks to the flight crew. I do not have to read a official report. The aircraft was not on glideslope. As was mentioned earlier. With visibility 4 reds were very visible. 4 reds your dead. Ok, heads down in the cockpit. Didn't notice??? Someone had something set incorrectly. Altimeter, DH, I just don't get this at all. We will see in a few weeks. I haven't even heard which pilot was flying.

Thanks to the modern aircraft technology no one perished.
 
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:14 am

There are other things besides pilot that could have gone wrong. Do not pass judgment yet.

Windshear, icing, control surface issues, A/P or A/T problems, engines quitting suddenly as in BA 38... and on top of that, accidents are usually the result of multiple things going wrong. An equipment malfunction followed by crew mistakes, for instance.

I'm waiting for more information.

Also, on the previous thread someone posted a google street view picture of the embankment and the power lines. I have to say the aircraft was VERY low to hit the power lines. Wow. And yes, arrangements like this are very common at many, many airports. Roads going near the runway ends, with light poles or small power lines, buildings... aircraft are expected to hit the runways, glideslopes, and not randomly land near by. Of course, major structures like towers of any sort should not be near the flight paths. But you cannot remove the earth from around the airport. If you direct the aircraft to the ground, it will hit something, eventually, be it dirt, light poles, or buildings. That's just the way it is.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 1):
The aircraft was not on glideslope.

As I understand it, from the previous thread, the aircraft was on a Localizer approach (i.e. no glideslope guidance). If so, I would be very curious to know why the runway is localizer only. Terrain? But still, you would have had to seriously ignore the GPWS system to have done what this flight crew pulled off...I'd imagine they were getting "Terrain! Pull up!" well before plowing through the power lines...
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bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:17 pm

There was a thread titled: "Have you ever been on a plane that crashed?" Can't find it now....

I was on an AC A320 twice: Sept 10, 2006 and May 30, 1998 --- both YYZ-YHZ.

No way to find out if I was on C-FTJP?
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morrisond
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 1:19 pm

Yes the were flying a localizer approach and they flew it perfectly right into the localizer...
 
tp1040
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 5):
Yes the were flying a localizer approach and they flew it perfectly right into the localizer...

I laughed a bit too much at that!

cheers.
 
Airontario
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:12 pm

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 1):
Thanks to whoever you believe in for the lack of deaths/injuries in this landing

Maybe we should thank the flight attendants who successfully evacuated the aircraft with nothing more than minor injuries? It's easy to take them for granted but they're trained to deal with emergency situations, and for the vast majority of them nothing goes wrong. But it is good to see that should something go wrong, that the training kicked in and everyone was able to get out and walk away.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 5):
Yes the were flying a localizer approach and they flew it perfectly right into the localizer...

Har har. I think they flew into 23's localizer though, as 05's would be on the opposite end of the runway, would it not?
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spartanmjf
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting morrisond (Reply 5):
Yes the were flying a localizer approach and they flew it perfectly right into the localizer...

Too soon! Too soon!

The aircraft took the beating and kept the passengers safe - in the end that is the best news in all of this.
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KELPkid
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting Airontario (Reply 7):
Maybe we should thank the flight attendants who successfully evacuated the aircraft with nothing more than minor injuries?

Must be hell: you train all your career for a skill that you hope to God you never have to use. Then you get "lucky" (well, really unlucky) and that training kicks in...and most F/A's probably go their entire career without having to perform an actual evac under emergency conditions.
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aerolimani
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
If so, I would be very curious to know why the runway is localizer only.

From retired Transport Canada aviation inspector, Jock Williams, on why there is only one ILS runway at YHZ:

Quote:
"I'd be blaming the generally penuriousness of the Canadian public. We don't like to spend money on stuff. Everybody likes to criticize after there's been an accident, but nobody likes to ante up ahead of time."

Of course, even though this guy might have some credibility, I still see this as armchair quarterbacking.

(From CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...moved-off-halifax-runway-1.3015771 )
 
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litz
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
you train all your career for a skill that you hope to God you never have to use. Then you get "lucky" (well, really unlucky) and that training kicks in...and most F/A's probably go their entire career without having to perform an actual evac under emergency conditions.

And yet, there have been quite a few recent incidents where a survivable accident occurs, and the cabin crew jumps into action, that training kicks in, and not only is the aircraft evacuated, it's done so within the mandated regulatory time period.

It shows how critically important that training is, and all the research behind it.
 
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 12):
And yet, there have been quite a few recent incidents where a survivable accident occurs, and the cabin crew jumps into action, that training kicks in, and not only is the aircraft evacuated, it's done so within the mandated regulatory time period.

Makes me wonder how many people took the time in this one to grab their carry-ons   
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hivue
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder how many people took the time in this one to grab their carry-ons

See my reply 174 in the previous part to this thread.
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litz
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
Makes me wonder how many people took the time in this one to grab their carry-ons

What amazes me are the accidents where people DO grab their carry-ons, yet the aircraft is still evacuated within the mandated time period ...

almost makes you wonder if the regulatory requirements are taking human nature into account along those lines ...

A lot of times a regulation is a "best scenario" requirement, and the reality just never lives up ...

But time and time again, we see aircraft evacuations successfully accomplished within the mandatory periods.

with bags ... with multiple exits blocked ... adverse weather/conditions ... with fires ... etc.
 
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:41 pm

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 11):
From retired Transport Canada aviation inspector, Jock Williams, on why there is only one ILS runway at YHZ:

Quote:"I'd be blaming the generally penuriousness of the Canadian public. We don't like to spend money on stuff. Everybody likes to criticize after there's been an accident, but nobody likes to ante up ahead of time."

Nah, if you Canucks were truly penny wise and pound foolish, it would be a Localizer Back Course approach on the runway     
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting spartanmjf (Reply 9):
The aircraft took the beating and kept the passengers safe - in the end that is the best news in all of this.

Indeed, when it could have ended far worse than it did with that early touch down, the embankment leading to runway level, the power line, the antennas or simply the aircraft breaking up. They were very lucky.
 
CyberEntomology
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:25 pm

There are some helpful drone images from the RCMP:

http://globalnews.ca/news/1915802/ne...-air-canada-flight-624-crash-site/

The pair of divots on the snow look like they would have been from the MLG, which would suggest that the belly just skimmed the ground where the localizer array was, and the wings took out most of the array.

As several other posts have pointed out, and this confirms, a couple of inches lower, and we'd be looking at a much messier and fatal incident. (Also, when you compare to Google street view, you get an appreciation for just how much snow is on the ground there.)

 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting cyberentomology (Reply 18):
The pair of divots on the snow look like they would have been from the MLG

Indeed, I think that too with the way they end abruptly and the location of the MLG. From there on it seems the aircraft didn't touch the ground until the runway on which it slammed down, loosing one engine in the process and bending nose landing gear rearward.
 
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czbbflier
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting cyberentomology (Reply 18):
Also, when you compare to Google street view, you get an appreciation for just how much snow is on the ground there.)

Here's a better shot than the one I posted in the last thread: https://goo.gl/maps/H5ORl

It shows the profile of the terrain between the road and the antenna array.

Quoting spartanmjf (Reply 9):
The aircraft took the beating and kept the passengers safe - in the end that is the best news in all of this.

Yes, and it's a miracle that Halifax has not seen so much snow in decades. The snow clearly cushioned the "premature landing".
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 17):
Quoting spartanmjf (Reply 9):
The aircraft took the beating and kept the passengers safe - in the end that is the best news in all of this.

Indeed, when it could have ended far worse than it did with that early touch down, the embankment leading to runway level, the power line, the antennas or simply the aircraft breaking up. They were very lucky.

The AC accident has quite a bit in common with the LH A320 landing accident at WAW in September 1993, which also landed short of the runway, struck antennas and an embankment before veering off the runway. Unfortunately it caught fire which quickly spread to the fuselage after a wing was heavily damaged. Luckily only 2 fatalities (the captain and one passenger) of 70 aboard and most injuries were minor. Windshear believed a factor.
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930914-2

Link to accident report in above summary.
 
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:54 am

I think the Lufty in Warsaw did not undershoot, they hit a localiser but I think you'll find it was down the far end.
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting czbbflier (Reply 20):
It shows the profile of the terrain between the road and the antenna array.

Given this, I'm actually surprised that they hit the power line. It seems almost lower than the hill that the localiser is on. Or maybe my eyes are betraying me. But it must have been a close call between hitting the power line _and_ not hitting the hill lower down.

I would also like to know what attitude the plane was in when it hit the top of the hill just before the localiser. How much lower would the tail usually be in this kind of a situation? Did the tail hit the lines? Why didn't it hit the snow? Or did the power lines do the damage to the horizontal stabilisers?

And did the aircraft bounce from the MLG contact? Or do the signs actually show that it didn't really hit ground, it just hit snow... no major effect. It just plowed through the antenna and continued...

Lots of questions, not many answers...
 
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aerolimani
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 23):
And did the aircraft bounce from the MLG contact? Or do the signs actually show that it didn't really hit ground, it just hit snow... no major effect. It just plowed through the antenna and continued...

In the photo from reply 18, we can see the MLG wheels laying in the snow, in the space between the antenna array and the runway. So, the impact with the array embankment was enough to take out the MLG. I think it's safe to say it wasn't just plowing through snow. We don't see ground in the photo, but that's easily explained by the fact it continued snowing that night, post accident.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:42 pm

I'm wondering if this was a case of the rad alt be used for minimums rather than the altimeter?
 
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speedbird707
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:26 pm

Are there any pictures of the hulk being moved or where it is resting now?
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):

Bingo! I think we may have a winner.
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YYZYYT
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 23):
Given this, I'm actually surprised that they hit the power line. It seems almost lower than the hill that the localiser is on. Or maybe my eyes are betraying me. But it must have been a close call between hitting the power line _and_ not hitting the hill lower down.

I would also like to know what attitude the plane was in when it hit the top of the hill just before the localiser. How much lower would the tail usually be in this kind of a situation? Did the tail hit the lines? Why didn't it hit the snow? Or did the power lines do the damage to the horizontal stabilisers?

And did the aircraft bounce from the MLG contact? Or do the signs actually show that it didn't really hit ground, it just hit snow... no major effect. It just plowed through the antenna and continued...

Lots of questions, not many answers...

The pictures in posts 18 and 20 really paint a picture.

I would agree that the power line's elevation seems to be on par or possibly lower than the point of impact (although that is by no means clear).

Did the pilots add power to regain height (did any of the passengers report the engines roaring to life)? Maybe they arrested the sink and managed to gain a few feet?

But most of all they reinforce just how close this was to a major disaster - even a few feet lower and it would have hit that berm it head-on!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:05 pm

Anyone know how to get ahold of the approach plate (electronically) for the LOC approach in question? I know how to do that for US airports, but not Canada...I'd love to see what the MDA for the approach was. I'm wondering if they hit what they thought was MDA after the FAF (Final Approach Fix) and cruised at that altitude for a while until the sudden contact with the power lines...

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
I'm wondering if this was a case of the rad alt be used for minimums rather than the altimeter?

If so, then how would it give such erroneous readings? I can imagine that if they came in over the water and descended to the MDA too quickly (i.e. approach being hand flown, pilot flying blew identification of an approach fix...). But you'd think that looking at the picture on the flight director would have shown them where they really were.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 3):
But still, you would have had to seriously ignore the GPWS system to have done what this flight crew pulled off...I'd imagine they were getting "Terrain! Pull up!" well before plowing through the power lines...

No GPWS in landing mode. Think about it - it would be screaming through every landing.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
if you Canucks were truly penny wise and pound foolish, it would be a Localizer Back Course approach on the runway

The last LOC(BC) approaches in Canada were only decommissioned in 2014.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:19 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 30):
The last LOC(BC) approaches in Canada were only decommissioned in 2014.

Pretty sure YYR's is still operational.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 29):
Anyone know how to get ahold of the approach plate (electronically) for the LOC approach in question? I know how to do that for US airports, but not Canada...I'd love to see what the MDA for the approach was. I'm wondering if they hit what they thought was MDA after the FAF (Final Approach Fix) and cruised at that altitude for a while until the sudden contact with the power lines...

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
I'm wondering if this was a case of the rad alt be used for minimums rather than the altimeter?

If so, then how would it give such erroneous readings? I can imagine that if they came in over the water and descended to the MDA too quickly (i.e. approach being hand flown, pilot flying blew identification of an approach fix...). But you'd think that looking at the picture on the flight director would have shown them where they really were.

The rad alt is your height above ground while your altimeter is height above sea level. If your MDA/ DH is 500 (as an example) pressure altitude and the ground level off the end of the threshold is 200 ft lower then your rad alt would be reading 700 ft. If your using the rad alt for the MDA and its reading 500 ft then your actually 200 ft lower and your below the MDA. Just a thought....
 
hivue
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 30):
No GPWS in landing mode. Think about it - it would be screaming through every landing.

It's sounding a lot like some screaming would have been in order for this landing.

But actually, the RA would have been doing its "50 - 40 - 30 - 20 - retard" thing though, right? That ought to have been good enough. Either the crew thought being close to terrain was OK or they had an issue that prevented a go around.
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Whiteguy
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:41 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 33):

It's sounding a lot like some screaming would have been in order for this landing.

But actually, the RA would have been doing its "50 - 40 - 30 - 20 - retard" thing though, right? That ought to have been good enough. Either the crew thought being close to terrain was OK or they had an issue that prevented a go around.

Not necessarily, the ground was still quite a bit lower then where they first contacted the ground!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 32):

The rad alt is your height above ground while your altimeter is height above sea level. If your MDA/ DH is 500 (as an example) pressure altitude and the ground level off the end of the threshold is 200 ft lower then your rad alt would be reading 700 ft. If your using the rad alt for the MDA and its reading 500 ft then your actually 200 ft lower and your below the MDA. Just a thought....

I would imagine that it is not legal to use Radar Altitude in lieu of indicated altitude (not that things like this don't sometimes slip through the cracks). RA would only be correct on an approach over the bloody runway (unless Transport Canada magically publishes the RA numbers at every single fix of the approach). Even then, you'd still want to cross reference the altimeter...
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Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 22):
I think the Lufty in Warsaw did not undershoot, they hit a localiser but I think you'll find it was down the far end.

You're right. It was at the far end. I misread the report.

[Edited 2015-04-02 17:05:09]
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:28 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 31):
Pretty sure YYR's is still operational.

Well it isnt.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
I'm wondering if this was a case of the rad alt be used for minimums rather than the altimeter?

Not a chance. There is a lot of speculation here on the technique of how this non precision approach is flown. Gone are the days of the "drop and dive" non precision where you dive from FAF to MDA and fly along at low level, waiting for either a timing expriation, station passage, or seeing the runway and making the landing.

Airlines utilize CDA (constant descent angle) approaches nowadays. The approach is flown at a constant angle from the FAF to an MDA which is now more like a DA. No timing, no level off. You arrive at MDA and if nothing is seen you go around. An altitude buffer is added to MDA to prevent you sinking below that value if commencing the G/A at arrival of MDA.

Obviously something went wrong, a myriad of causes possibly contributing. But to think these guys were bombing around on a rad alt would be against all training.
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
A346Dude
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting sixtyseven (Reply 37):
Well it isnt.

Well that's interesting, because there's a current plate for YYR's LOC BC RWY 26 published by Jeppesen. There's one for RWY 09 at YJT as well.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 38):
Well that's interesting, because there's a current plate for YYR's LOC BC RWY 26 published by Jeppesen. There's one for RWY 09 at YJT as well.

I have an account at Jeppesen, (all AC pilots do) and checked.

At YYR, I see ILS Z and Y for runway 08, but only RNAV (GNSS) for 08, 16, 26 and 34. No LOC (BC).

At YJT, I see an ILS for 27, and an NDB (GNSS) for 09. No LOC (BC).

This up to date, as of today, with the "all charts" button selected on the chart viewer.
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A346Dude
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:50 pm

Thanks for checking Longhauler, but now I'm really confused. My (also current) Jeppesen account shows a LOC (BACK CRS) Z OR NDB RWY 26 and a LOC (BACK CRS) Y RWY 26 for YYR, both revised 12 Sept 2014.

These are also viewable on fltplan.com, and I see one for YZR and YGK as well. Does anyone have a Canada Air Pilot to check?
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
sixtyseven
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:42 pm

To use my daughters term. "whatever." The Back Course debate is moot in this case. As it was not flown. Hard to fly something not offered.

We could also be debating the merits of a Radio Range approach- dit dah. Or smoke signals (slightly better lol). None were involved.

If my modicum of knowledge of things is correct, I'd say the LOC portions of the the ILS to 23 were damaged. The LOC array to 05 is intact as its at the opposite end of the runway. The requirements for a LOC to 05 would be its own array not shared with the ILS array for 23 as a back course signal would be.

[Edited 2015-04-03 15:47:51]
Stand-by for new ATIS message......
 
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Jamake1
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:44 pm

In the first thread about this Halifax accident, a poster mentioned that (s)he thought that this accident was AC's first hull loss since the DC-9 fire in CVG about 30 years ago. Somebody else mentioned the CRJ accident in Fredericton, NB in December 1997.

A Fredericton-based photographer has a website that shows several photos of the 1997 accident.

http://www.atwphoto.com/ac646.htm
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CyberEntomology
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:03 am

That CRJ was definitely a hull loss. AC's last *fatality*, however, was the DC9 fire in CVG (and even that happened after they got on the ground safely and opened the doors to evac, feeding the smouldering fire with a whole mess of oxygen). One can't help but wonder if that electrical fire was somehow related to the same aircraft blowing out its tailcone in flight four years earlier.
 
Whiteguy
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Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:11 am

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting sixtyseven (Reply 37):

Well it isnt.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25):
I'm wondering if this was a case of the rad alt be used for minimums rather than the altimeter?

Not a chance. There is a lot of speculation here on the technique of how this non precision approach is flown. Gone are the days of the "drop and dive" non precision where you dive from FAF to MDA and fly along at low level, waiting for either a timing expriation, station passage, or seeing the runway and making the landing.

Airlines utilize CDA (constant descent angle) approaches nowadays. The approach is flown at a constant angle from the FAF to an MDA which is now more like a DA. No timing, no level off. You arrive at MDA and if nothing is seen you go around. An altitude buffer is added to MDA to prevent you sinking below that value if commencing the G/A at arrival of MDA.

Obviously something went wrong, a myriad of causes possibly contributing. But to think these guys were bombing around on a rad alt would be against all training.

I understand CDA approaches as we did them at my last company. Thanks anyway.

I do disagree with "not a chance" but that's my opinion, and you have yours. I'm not saying that's what happened here but it's somethkng to think about. Not sure what is displayed on the Bus and the differences from the '37.

I have seen it before when the rad alt was used rather than the altimeter. Most of the time it's not much of a difference between the elevation before the runway and the actual runway but there a few runways where it is.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting cyberentomology (Reply 43):
One can't help but wonder if that electrical fire was somehow related to the same aircraft blowing out its tailcone in flight four years earlier.

The BOS-YHZ event is mentioned in the NTSB report on the CVG fire but no link could be established.

Related excerpt from the official CVG report:

On September 17, 1979, the airplane experienced an in-flight failure of its aft
pressure bulkhead shortly after takeoff from Logan International Airport, Boston,
Massachusetts. The separation and ensuing depressurization occurred shortly after the
airplane had leveled off at FL 250. At the time of the Logan accident, the airplane had
flown about 28,425 hours and had completed 26,816 landings. The damage to the aft part
of the airplane was extensive. There was disruption of some engine and flight control
components. Except for severed flight data recorder connections, no damage was found
on any electrical components, wires, and cables examined during the investigation.
However, in effecting repairs, numerous wire bundles were cut in order to examine the
airplane and to facilitate the removal of damaged structure and reinstallation of
replacement structure. Repairs to the airplane were made by McDonnell Douglas and
inspected by Air Canada under its authority as a Canadian Ministry of Transport (MOT)
approved company. The aft pressure bulkhead and aft accessory compartment were
rebuilt at Logan Airport between September 18, 1979, and November 20, 1979. The
installation of the aft lavatories and interior furnishings was made by Air Canada at their
Dorval Base in Montreal. Air Canada and McDonnell Douglas each wrote engineering
reports on repairs to the airplane. An FAA Form 337, which was part of the Air Canada
report, listed 29 individual repair items. Item 3 of this list stated, “Spliced electrical
wires through aft pressure bulkhead per service sketch 2958.” The sketch designated
where the splices were to be made and the manner in which they were to be made. In
addition, the Air Canada report stated that the contractual agreement required **that the
repairs be carried out to restore the aircraft to condition substantially conforming to .
specification for the airplane as originally delivered.** The airplane was returned to
service December 1, 1979.

During the investigation of the Cincinnati accident, all of the wire splices
made during the repairs at Logan which were found and not destroyed were examined. No
evidence of arcing or short circuiting was found.
 
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Jamake1
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:39 am

Very interesting read, Viscount. Thanks for that.
Come fly the sun.
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1707
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:50 pm

I think some amount of speculation, clearly marked as such, is healthy and on-topic for this site. If you only want the official story, you can read the AAIB site 

I think this thread has had some reasonable speculation, and very little blatant jumping to conclusions and placing blame. (Unlike some other threads on this site, of course.)
 
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rikkus67
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2000 11:34 am

RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 48):
you can read the AAIB site 

That would be TSB (Transportation Safety Board), in Canada.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:52 am

After this accident I've heard some new talk about AC A320s being cursed - regarding the Airbus scandal..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_affair

Foolish nonsense but still I'm glad they're (A320s) on the way out....

[Edited 2015-04-04 18:54:49]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus

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