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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 51):
After this accident I've heard some new talk about AC A320s being cursed - regarding the Airbus scandal..

Wow ... that was more than 25 years ago ... quite a long lasting curse. But, the bottom line is that had Air Canada purchased the competing airframe at the time, the B737-400, it would have been obsolete 15 years ago. Whatever the reason, AC clearly made the right choice.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 40):
Thanks for checking Longhauler, but now I'm really confused. My (also current) Jeppesen account shows a LOC (BACK CRS) Z OR NDB RWY 26 and a LOC (BACK CRS) Y RWY 26 for YYR, both revised 12 Sept 2014.These are also viewable on fltplan.com, and I see one for YGK as well. Does anyone have a Canada Air Pilot to check?

As per current CAPs

YYR does indeed have a LOC BC approach published for runway 26.
YJT also has a LOC BC approach published for runway 09.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 29):
Anyone know how to get ahold of the approach plate (electronically) for the LOC approach in question? I know how to do that for US airports, but not Canada...I'd love to see what the MDA for the approach was

MDA for the LOC 05 approach at YHZ is 740 ft (277 AGL), 1 SM vis required.

Though the MDA needs to be corrected for cold temps. (something pilots never do, btw !)

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 40):
but now I'm really confused. My (also current) Jeppesen account shows a LOC (BACK CRS) Z OR NDB RWY 26 and a LOC (BACK CRS) Y RWY 26 for YYR, both revised 12 Sept 2014

Maybe longhauler, and therefore AC, has a company policy to not fly LOC BC approaches, which might explain why their JEPP contract prevents them from seeing any LOC BC approach plates when they log in.

Wouldn't be surprised if this is the case. When we had BC approaches in YOW and YQB, you wouldn't believe the number of times certain carriers would try to intercept the front course while cleared for the LOC BC approach...  

It's also happened several years ago at YUL with a B747, when a certain carrier that shall go nameless, tried to intercept the front course of said localizer, when it was a BC approach. That sure gave the NIMBY's something to talk about......

I can see how it is a safety issue and why carriers would ban such approaches based on their SMS policies.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 30):
The last LOC(BC) approaches in Canada were only decommissioned in 2014.

Not all of them, not yet anyways.

NavCan implemented its ILS replacement program starting in 2009, and it's going to last until 2017. All the new ILS's that will be installed are front course only, and dont have a BC. So there probably still are some LOC BC approaches scattered across the country. As i said, there definately is at YYR and YJT.

Several ILS and LOC are left for replacement, including ones at YYT (CAT III on rwy 11), YXX, YLW, YYF, YYZ, YTZ, YVR and YCG.

DND airports such as YYR or YTR aren't affected by this program.

[Edited 2015-04-05 04:43:44]
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beechnut
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 52):
Wow ... that was more than 25 years ago ... quite a long lasting curse. But, the bottom line is that had Air Canada purchased the competing airframe at the time, the B737-400, it would have been obsolete 15 years ago. Whatever the reason, AC clearly made the right choice.

Very true. As for an Airbus curse at AC... well so far AC's busses haven't killed a soul and have been around for nearly a quarter century. Whoever put the hex on them clearly hasn't been very effective!!!

As for this accident, I think all pilots, even humble PPLs like myself are saying "there but for the grace of God go I". A very good friend who flies RJs for Jazz and occasionally borrows my spam can was in YHZ the morning after the accident, and that's more or less what he told me. He refuses to speculate on the cause. He said "it could have happened to any of us". I'm sure this accident will have many slices of cheese to analyze.

Beech
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 53):

Maybe longhauler, and therefore AC, has a company policy to not fly LOC BC approaches, which might explain why their JEPP contract prevents them from seeing any LOC BC approach plates when they log in.

That is the only possible explanation. I would have thought that selecting the "all charts" option would have shown everything available, but they may still only go as far as the contract covers, as you suggest. And you are right, it is Air Canada SOP not to perform LOC (BC) approaches.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 51):
After this accident I've heard some new talk about AC A320s being cursed - regarding the Airbus scandal..

    

Quoting longhauler (Reply 52):
Whatever the reason, AC clearly made the right choice.

And it was still a Crown corp back then...

Quoting beechnut (Reply 54):
well so far AC's busses haven't killed a soul and have been around for nearly a quarter century.

Hum, I'm sure you mean for more than a quarter century....  


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beechnut
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 56):
Hum, I'm sure you mean for more than a quarter century....  


Delivered Jan. 19, 1990 and still very active: http://www.flightradar24.com/reg/c-fdqq

Couldn't remember if they were delivered starting in '90 or '91; thanks. I was flying on business quite a bit back then, I should have kept a log! In any case, they certainly have had a long and successful career with AC, this accident notwithstanding.

Beech
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 51):
Though the MDA needs to be corrected for cold temps. (something pilots never do, btw !)

Not sure what you mean by that… Day in and day out we correct MDA anytime its 0 or below.
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 56):

Not sure what you mean by that… Day in and day out we correct MDA anytime its 0 or below.

I'm glad your carrier does so, but i can assure you that is not the case for a lot of operators i see.

Problem is, it's not just the MDA that needs to be corrected. All the published altitudes on an approach plate need to be corrected, including minimum segment altitudes (from the IAF to the IF, for example)

Ex. Numerous times a day, i clear aircraft for an RNAV approach at one of my airports via the IAWP (fix on right/left base). The transition from IAWP to IWP has a minimum segment alt of 4000 ft. This past february, at -30C for most of the month, you wouldn't believe the number of operators i saw at 4000 ft on that segment, when the corrected altitude should probably be closer to 5000 ft. And that is mountainous terrain, btw. (MSA is 4600 ft, with mountain tops a few miles north of that segment at 2600 ft ASL, while the airport sits at 240 ft ASL)

thenoflyzone

[Edited 2015-04-06 04:36:23]
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Aesma
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:39 pm

Any news on the cause ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:36 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 58):

Any news on the cause ?

At the rate they're moving, (Canada Transportation Safety Board)-- likely not before May.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 59):
At the rate they're moving, (Canada Transportation Safety Board)

What do you mean?

It's only been 13 days. It likely took at least a week to assemble the investigation team required under Annex 13 of the Convention on Civil Aviation - TSB, BEA (Airbus/SNECMA), NTSB (GE) and probably avionics manufacturers.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
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Classa64
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 5:45 pm

First ever post , Long, Long time reader.

I am fascinated and amazed at the amount of work required to figure out what happen when there is an accident, and even more amazed when it is something so small that created a bad or a tragic event. The work these people do is astounding and I commend them for there work and feel bad for them when they see what they have to see some days, I am glad that this was not worse than it could of been.

I have been following as best I could this post, I have seen the pics and just assumed it was a case of being to low, but I understand from all the things I have read its never that simple.

My question is why have there been no release of the CVR or the FDR? A few days after the Germanwings crash we had a CVR report and then they found the FDR a short time later. Are the rules for release of this information different in Canada than in other places around the world?

Thanks
C.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 61):
My question is why have there been no release of the CVR or the FDR? A few days after the Germanwings crash we had a CVR report and then they found the FDR a short time later. Are the rules for release of this information different in Canada than in other places around the world?

It really comes down to politics. With regard to the Germanwings accident there was a push to not only find out what happened, but also to find out what didn't happen. It appears that there was a desire to quickly absolve the airframe manufacturer (and associated peripherals) of any blame. The only way to do this, before the investigation was completed, would be to publicly release CVR and FDR data.

Canada's Transportation Safety Board is looking at a lot of data. Not only the CVR, and FDR, but that aircraft was also equipped with FDA stored data used regularly by safety committes. And ... not only the accident aircraft, but also the previous half dozen aircraft that landed before AC624.

It is a very long process. I would be very surprised if the final results were published quicker than a year.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 61):
My question is why have there been no release of the CVR or the FDR? A few days after the Germanwings crash we had a CVR report and then they found the FDR a short time later. Are the rules for release of this information different in Canada than in other places around the world?

That type of information is virtually never released by the Canadian TSB until their investigation is complete and the official report is issued, often a year or more after the accident.
 
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HALtheAI
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:12 pm

The probable cause of the Germanwings crash would've been obvious to investigators within hours. ACARS reported no error messages, there were no distress calls from the pilots, and ADS-B showed the desired altitude was set to 100 feet. Most importantly, the NY Times had a leak from a source close to the investigation within a couple days of the crash, so there was little point in trying to keep the CVR data secret after that.
 
threepoint
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:21 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):

It is a very long process. I would be very surprised if the final results were published quicker than a year.

I agree with longhauler, the timelines of course, are common to most 705 aircraft accident investigations. We knew minutes after the accident what caused the crash: the aircraft was too low on approach. The report will obviously focus on WHY it was so low, and there is rarely a single variable to blame or a sole contributing factor. In many investigations, definitive conclusions may be reached quite quickly, but months of delays occur as investigators wrestle with the interests of affected parties that may be amended as successive draft reports are issued pre the public release of the final version.

In this event, with a good deal of pending litigation relying upon the report's conclusions, the wait may take much longer than we might surmise.
The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
 
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Classa64
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:44 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):
Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):
Canada's Transportation Safety Board is looking at a lot of data. Not only the CVR, and FDR, but that aircraft was also equipped with FDA stored data used regularly by safety committes. And ... not only the accident aircraft, but also the previous half dozen aircraft that landed before AC624.

Could you expand on this a bit, I don't know what FDA stored data is.

Also in this case is it possible that the aircraft was still powered up and would be sending data to the manufactures and Air Canada once it came to a stop? Would a ELT be triggered?

I see now by the replies there will be a wait, sad though that these events get lost and forgotten but I am sure the results of it will come up in some sort of updated training or a change in procedures for those people that fly.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 61):
A few days after the Germanwings crash we had a CVR report

Don't forget it was leaked to the NYT and then confirmed by the prosecutor's office. BEA has not released it. Under Annex 13 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, some of the leaked information (e.g. passengers screams) should never have been released.

Annex 13, Article 5.12:
"The State conducting the investigation of an accident or incident shall not make the following records available for purposes other than accident or incident investigation ...
d) cockpit voice recordings and transcripts from such recordings; and
e) opinions expressed in the analysis of information, including flight recorder information."

Article 5.12.1:
"These records shall be included in the final report or its appendices only when pertinent to the analysis of the accident or incident. Parts of the records not relevant to the analysis shall not be disclosed."

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 61):
Are the rules for release of this information different in Canada than in other places around the world?

All investigations are (or should be) conducted in accordance with Annex 13.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 65):
In this event, with a good deal of pending litigation relying upon the report's conclusions

Official investigation reports cannot be used in prosecutions or litigation.

Article 3.1:
"The sole objective of the investigation of an accident or incident shall be the prevention of accidents and incidents. It is not the purpose of this activity to apportion blame or liability."
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 66):
Could you expand on this a bit, I don't know what FDA stored data is.

FDA= Flight Data Analysis

Airlines have been mandated by ICAO since 2005 to set up FDA regimes to analyse FOQA data (Flight Operations Quality Assurance).

It is part of an ICAO initiative to improve safety management systems (SMS) in airlines and it is applicable to all aircraft with an MTOW > 59000lbs.

Now FOQA data is gathered from an aircraft's operational parameters and can include anything from relatively basic stuff like airspeed, altitude, thrust settings to complex engine health monitoring data. Our 787-9s will have the ability to monitor and record over 1000 parameters.

Airlines monitor the data for safety and operational (maintenance) purposes. This way, airlines can potentially anticipate equipment and component failures before they occur.*

*It is important to note at this point that I am not referring to real time fault data analysis which is relayed immediately to airline maintenance stations over ACARS like in the case of AF447.

The way the data is stored varies by aircraft type due to the difference in the avionics setup. In simplistic terms, all this data is recorded onto what is known as a QAR or quick access recorder. The data is stored on PC cards.

Some airlines like EK have Wifi connectivity on their A380 and 77W fleets which allows the QAR data to be downloaded at DXB.

Given the context of this thread, I should also add that FOQA data could just as well be used to monitor piloting.

So as an example, an aircraft lands in gusty winds and veers off the runway. The company can have a look at the QAR data very quickly to see if the pilots have busted or ignored any company procedures.

I apologise for the acronyms.

This industry loves them.
.

[Edited 2015-04-12 14:34:15]

[Edited 2015-04-12 14:34:30]
 
737tdi
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 68):

You are right in some applications. Not all commercial aircraft have this capability. I.E. the 737. It does not have the ability to transmit data as you state to a maintenance facility. IMO that is a good thing, I don't need a aircraft to tell me what is wrong with it. I have worked on aircraft that do this but more often then not it was wrong. It is like maintenance controllers troubleshooting from a desk. I know more and have seen more then most of them, Yes I will call for advice sometimes but the bottom line is the mech. is the troubleshooter, the way it should be. I love help but I don't want to be directed to replace a part because it might fail.
 
Chaostheory
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 69):
Not all commercial aircraft have this capability. I.E. the 737. It does not have the ability to transmit data as you state to a maintenance facility.

Where did i say it did?

I only mentioned the EK A380/77W:

Quoting ChaosTheory (Reply 68):
Some airlines like EK have Wifi connectivity on their A380 and 77W fleets which allows the QAR data to be downloaded at DXB.

Now the 737 can be (and often is) equipped with QAR. The aforementioned ICAO mandate has no teeth unless the local regulator, the FAA in your case, compels it.

The US is one of the few regions in the world where monitoring such devices are not mandated. I think FX is one of the few operators to voluntarily install such systems on their aircraft as it assists their maintenance operation.

It appears the 737 can also be equipped with a wireless groundlink system like the A380 and 777. See here:

http://www.teledyne-controls.com/pdf/GroundLink.pdf

[Edited 2015-04-12 20:25:44]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air Canada Landing Accident In Halifax Part 2

Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 62):
It really comes down to politics. With regard to the Germanwings accident there was a push to not only find out what happened, but also to find out what didn't happen. It appears that there was a desire to quickly absolve the airframe manufacturer (and associated peripherals) of any blame

I disagree. Politics played a role because 150 people were dead and everyone was riveted in front of their TV wanting to know why. And that why could of course mean changes have to be made, as has in fact happened only a few days after the accident.

I'm pretty sure that if the TSB had discovered something that could significantly impact the safety of other airplanes (A320 or not) they would have said so already.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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