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CMHFlyGuy
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:26 am

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49):
Two simple questions;

1) Why should someone who stayed doing same job for decades 'deserve better' ?

and

2) Why should someone starting out 'deserve better' if $8 happens to be the prevailing going rate and company the does not seem to have trouble hiring at such rate?

Just curious..

meet

Quoting Reply 48):
I am not debating the supply and demand argument. Like you said, there will be a lot more people applying for the $10/hr job as opposed to a CEO job. In the end, I believe you get what you pay for. Respectable wages and benefits will get you dedicated employees and employees that will go the extra mile wanting to participate in the success of the company they work for. Low wages and benefits will get you high turnover and someone who just views it as another job.

Don't take my word for it, the CEO's of DL, UA, AA, WN all say that the key to success in the airline business is good customer service. If I were a betting man I would put my money on the airline that pays its employees better wages and benefits. The airline that outsources to the lowest bidder and cuts away will show that in customer service ratings and operational performance.

Style, buddy, you just got respected.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:07 am

I think some of you confuse income earned somehow as equaling service quality.

Such has been proven wrong in industry after industry.

Matter of fact many would argue that the higher paid, more senior people are actually the less productive employees for an enterprise.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
Frankly the US is decades behind the world were contact vendors are the norm in airline industry.
Its unimaginable for an airline to employ everyone inhouse from the cleaner, to aircraft fueler to cargo warehouse staff when there are dozens of companies capable of providing the service.

Its actually a very odd U.S. thing this theory that front line employees need to be airline employees.

Virtually entire worlds airline industry has adopted a vendor based model decades ago (including many at their hubs) while U.S. airlines are still debating this issue.

I dont think anyone complains that customer service at SQ, or EK is terrible because the employee dressed in the SQ uniform happens to be a vendors employee. Frankly I dont think the customer knows.

Quoting Reply 48):
Don't take my word for it, the CEO's of DL, UA, AA, WN all say that the key to success in the airline business is good customer service. If I were a betting man I would put my money on the airline that pays its employees better wages and benefits. The airline that outsources to the lowest bidder and cuts away will show that in customer service ratings and operational performance.

Its one thing to say good customer service might be key, but that does not mean an open checkbook.
Gary Kelly at Southwest in recent years has been vocal that income curve can no longer rise, it actually needs to flatten out. Only way SWA has done so well is via productivity, but now as other airlines become more productive, reigning in pay becomes a fact.

Some of the worlds most customer service focused companies outside the airline industry are not companies that are big payers or layers in complex union contracts.
mercure f-wtcc
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting Reply 48):
I am not debating the supply and demand argument. Like you said, there will be a lot more people applying for the $10/hr job as opposed to a CEO job. In the end, I believe you get what you pay for. Respectable wages and benefits will get you dedicated employees and employees that will go the extra mile wanting to participate in the success of the company they work for. Low wages and benefits will get you high turnover and someone who just views it as another job.

$10 might be very respectable wage for what a person brings to the table.

At some point it all comes down to personal responsibility. Its up to the individual for them to become valuable enough to earn more. Either through education, special skills etc.
If they don't like a $10 job then they need to work on setting themselves apart from the millions around them to earn that higher wage job. Very simple - figure out way to climb that pyramid.

Quoting Reply 48):
Don't take my word for it, the CEO's of DL, UA, AA, WN all say that the key to success in the airline business is good customer service. If I were a betting man I would put my money on the airline that pays its employees better wages and benefits. The airline that outsources to the lowest bidder and cuts away will show that in customer service ratings and operational performance.

No problem preaching customer service. Some of the most customer centric companies have labor cost fraction of what airlines do.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 51):
I think some of you confuse income earned somehow as equaling service quality.

Such has been proven wrong in industry after industry.

  

Quoting cmhflyguy (Reply 50):
meet

Well since you wont answer it directly I say following:

Regarding the person that stuck around decades doing the same job, I'm sorry but if they lack the drive and desire to move up in life, they certainly don't merit a penny more than whatever the job tops out at.

Somehow to believe they "deserve better" just because they have clocked in for so long is a fallacy and a cop out.

Like that $10 hr employee starting out, they need to make themselves more valuable to earn the higher pay and work up the pyramid.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
airplan727
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting Reply 45):


When did I ever say the $20/hr was for a starting wage? The UA employees in these affected stations making that much have all been with the company atleast 10 years. I would also assume a starting CS position for UA or DL or WN is around the $11 mark as well, this being for the position of Ramp or Customer Service. Maybe someone in one of those positions can fill us in on the actual starting and topped off wages.

I agree that it's a combination of things that are part of the problem, such as wall street and the consumers appetite for the cheapest price. But some leaders look at their employees as a valuable part of their business. While others just look at raw data sheats and think cutting their way to profitability is the way to go.

I think maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I thought you were implying that $20 was an average starting wage across the country. That would be very inflated. I still maintain that $20 isn't an average considering how the amount of employees that stick with a job long term has decreased immensely over the years. Currently a long term employee is deemed to be an employee that stays with a company for over a year. Less than 10 years ago it would've been staying for over almost 10 years. If on average employees don't stick with a job for much longer than a year they will likely never reach those kinds of wages.
 
airplan727
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting cmhflyguy (Reply 47):



Quoting airplan727 (Reply 37):

I don't work in the aviation industry -- it's just a passionate hobby for me. I do, however, work in the customer service industry, and have my entire career. You are technically correct that customer service does not require anything more than a high school diploma. But the vast majority of people seem unable to comprehend it, even if they are capable, including SMI/J. Customer Service -- especially face-to-face customer service -- requires patience and grace under fire. It requires regular abuse. It requires a passion to serve people and help. It requires a very optimistic outlook on life and people.

You're right that the people who stay in customer service for 20-30 years should get a reward for doing so -- but $20-25 an hour for it isn't enough. AT ALL. Customer service is literally one of the most draining-on-your-soul jobs you can have. You see the worst out of people all day every day. You think quickly to resolve extraordinary situations every day before they become major catastrophes for the company -- and any more you do it having to worry if your interaction is going to end up on YouTube as a video or audio recording.

I've worked in call centers the last eight years and I've not earned less than $13.94/hour. And I get a mute button and nobody can see my body language except my coworkers. And I LIKE and AM GOOD AT my job. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't trade my job for the world.

But I would say there's really only a small group of people on this planet earth who can do customer service work -- call center or in person -- for 20 to 30 years. And they deserve better than $25/hour. And people starting deserve better than $8/hour!

[Edited 2015-04-04 16:44:42]

I too have worked in customer service for my entire career. I started out making $6.25 and worked my up to $16 over 8 years and that was moving into a leadership position. This was all in retail. Then I moved into a call center and was making the same due to experience. My other coworkers were starting at $11. I then was promoted into call center management making $42k/yr. Just about $20/hr. I dealt exclusively with escalation issues, thus nothing but angry upset customers. That is with 9 years in customer service moving up through the ranks. Ive never felt I deserved more than I got.
It is very exhausting some days, but also very rewarding to help the customer accomplish what they need, especially. Y when you can help save the company face at the same time. Would I like more? Of course. Do I think it's worth more than I'm making? Not at all.
 
T5towbar
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:48 am

Quoting COSPN (Reply 38):
Strive for more ?? Well I'd rather make 50k working airplanes than get a useless degree sit in an Office in Chicago with my MBA and zero airline experience and make 89k trying to run some kind of staff model computer that is bogus or cut EWR to the bone and have planes waiting to get to the gate   .... UA need lot less 89k MBA and lots more hard working employees making around 50k a year .

Layers upon layers of management here, that's why.
Planes are waiting for a gate every day, because there is not enough manpower because of the staffing models the genuises thought up. Instead of letting local management run things, it seems like all decisions are run thru Willis.

Like I said before, if the BK didn't take away people's pensions, people would have gotten out long ago.
And not everyone is topped out. And many of us live in high cost areas like ORD; NYC; (or anywhere in the Northeast) and SFO, where the pay is just getting you by. That's why people will move to a lower cost of living area so their dollar can go further, ie: a line station.

Many of us took this job when the economy was a lot better than it is now. I remember you couldn't get people do this job, because there were better paying jobs out there at the time. The starting pay was low, but you had something to look forward to as you built time into the job. The travel was a great motivator too. So many people stayed into the job. It is a decent job and a lot of us raised families with it. Now many want to devalue it into a throwaway dead end job. It's that corporate mindset where they make everyone fight over the scraps. And pit people against each other, like having this conversation about workers wages while they make over 400 times what the average employee gets. And steady climbing.

Its sad when you think about it...........
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:24 pm

USA has a diferent legal system; you can not just charter a plane fly to Manila and hire 350
Young English speaking customer service staff and fly them
Back to Dubai, to work at the airport . You must hire off the street in the US you are not allowed to offer housing transportation . Food or anything like that .
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 42):
This isn't true. Ready Reserve flight benefits is identical to a PT or FT agent. Additionally, seasonal RRs get to keep their benefits even when not working. It's the draw DL uses to get them back the following year/season if there's college kids, or people just looking for temp work.

I was referring to DGS Ready Reserve, not Delta.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 57):

Sagas has ready reserves now??!
What gets measured gets done.
 
N104UA
Posts: 302
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
I have to say, though UA is my favorite airline, I don't understand the economics of outsourcing work domestically--wouldn't it be more expensive to hire someone else to do your work? For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

This is probably a gross oversimplification, but let's just say I have to mow my lawn. If I mow it myself, it'll be cheaper, but I'll have to put in the labor and etc. Now, I could hire a landscaper to mow my lawn, and sit in the living room drinking a soda in the air conditioning, but I'd pay a premium because I wasn't mowing the lawn myself, I'm paying somebody else to do it.

As previously said the union has set pay tables that an employee has to be paid (the point of a union). Also, it is hard to survive on $9.50/hr, let alone $8/hr. At $9.50 per hour, assuming you are a full time employee and you have paid vacation or never take a day off (2080hrs/year), you are pay $19,760/year then you pay $2502.75 in federal taxes and state taxes (varies depending on the state but we can say about 4%) which is $790.40 then 7.65% for FICA (Social Security and Medicare), which is $1511.64

So after taxes you get a whopping $14,955.21 or $1,246.27 per month, how easy do you think it would be to live on that? There is a corporate responsibility part that many investors are starting to look at (look at Apple, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Starbucks, profits compared to the airlines) if you take care of your employees you will have a better product at the end of the day.


Your analogy to mowing your lawn is totally incorrect, the airline would rather outsource as they don't have to pay the benefits on top of the employee's employment, remember you pay the employee $X but then they have to pay 7.65% FICA, Health Benefits, 401K. Generally the total cost of an employee is Salary + 25%plus. With outsourcing the airline pays the contractor a set fee and then the other company is responsible for all of the salary and benefits of their employees.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Okay, so the contract protects the wages of the laborers and the union's proposal price was too high in comparison to what the outsourcers bid. From the above posts, it seems that UA can go and outsource any mainline station they see fit without any hindrance from the union. If the union can't keep mainline employees who perform their job competently in their current job in their current location, what is the point of the union???

Again, from a purely economical standpoint this equation makes sense, but more and more investors are looking at companies that are corporately responsible.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49):
Two simple questions;

1) Why should someone who stayed doing same job for decades 'deserve better' ?

and

2) Why should someone starting out 'deserve better' if $8 happens to be the prevailing going rate and company the does not seem to have trouble hiring at such rate?

Just curious..

Why should the prevailing rate be $8/hr? Why can't they be paid $15/hr and that be the prevailing rate, that is a living wage and the employees will be happier.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting N104UA (Reply 59):
Why should the prevailing rate be $8/hr? Why can't they be paid $15/hr and that be the prevailing rate, that is a living wage and the employees will be happier.

Because society places a set value on jobs. Its essentially supply and demand.

Why pay $15/hr when thousands flock to work at $8?

Also paying different than your peers places a company at cost disadvantage. Unfortunately airlines have long found out the #1 priority for consumers is price so its incumbent on a business to keep its cost base as low as possible to survive.

Anyhow if you listen to economist, simply paying the world $15/hr is not the answer. All it would do is create inflationary pressure and before you know it that $15 becomes the new $8 as everyone else wages along with cost has risen. Its a zero sum game. Many people will still be at the bottom of the pyramid, and only a few on top.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 59):
So after taxes you get a whopping $14,955.21 or $1,246.27 per month, how easy do you think it would be to live on that?

That's were personal responsibility comes in. You need to differentiate yourself from the pack, make yourself more valuable if you seek to climb the social and job pyramid to live better.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jetmatt777
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
That's were personal responsibility comes in. You need to differentiate yourself from the pack, make yourself more valuable if you seek to climb the social and job pyramid to live better.

But most can't afford college or higher education as those costs have completely outpaced wage growth.

It's a catch-22, the rich who look down upon those who are working class tell them to go get educated. But most live paycheck to paycheck and have no way to come up with 20-40k it costs to come up with a meaningful college degree.

What's the point of taking out a loan for it? It will take a decade to pay off the debt while still living paycheck to paycheck.

What's wrong with companies just paying their workers a little bit more. Corporate profits are at stunning highs, while wages are flat and even decreasing in some professions.

The people who make the airline run, are pissed on by the people driving the ship. It's a slap in the face. The capital gains Jeff makes on his stocks in one month are more than a lot of his employees make in a year. I'm working 115 hours on the ramp this next paycheck. And I've accumulated $8000 in debt going to school for the past year for my A&P certificate.

The outlook for working maintenance at United looks grim. Won't look at your application if you don't have at least a year of jet maintenance experience. While I understand not wanting to hire someone off the street with zero experience, it would be nice if they would at least consider someone internal who has invested thousands of hours with the company, several years, and has been dedicated to improving their education. If the regionals don't mind training people, why can't the mainline carriers give someone a shot from within the company?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 61):
But most can't afford college or higher education as those costs have completely outpaced wage growth.
It's a catch-22, the rich who look down upon those who are working class tell them to go get educated. But most live paycheck to paycheck and have no way to come up with 20-40k it costs to come up with a meaningful college degree.

Reality can be cruel for many having been dealt a low spot on the social and income pyramid. Obviously some worse than others, and many will never make up higher.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 61):
Corporate profits are at stunning highs,

Is that not the whole point of being a for profit business?

Anyhow, the US airline industry is still underwater. Since 1945 the industry has accumulated more in losses then profits.

Just since 9/11 US airline industry accumulated losses of $130.2 billion (per IATA) and with every major airline sans Southwest filing bankruptcy and wiping away even more billions in equity and debt.

Its hardly been a goldmine for investor owners of such enterprises.

Being a cyclical industry its only a matter of time before things head downward again, so hopefully today profits can cover for such eventuality.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:16 pm

Education, Starting your own business(risky), Marrage, Joining the Military (risky),and organization (unionization) are the only ways to climb the later of economic life.
 
OB1504
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:18 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 62):
Reality can be cruel for many having been dealt a low spot on the social and income pyramid. Obviously some worse than others, and many will never make up higher.

So first you argue that entry-level workers are not valuable enough to earn a living wage (good luck checking in and having your bag arrive with you without a ticket agent or a ramper, by the way) and that they should get a better job. When it was pointed out that better jobs require an education which is unobtainable on entry level wages, your response is basically oh well, they're screwed?

Unless your parents have connections or can otherwise support you, you're going to be in for a rude awakening when you hit the workforce.

Of course, you could always apply for a management position at UA, where you'd fit right in.
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:43 pm

Is this the United States or India we are talking about? All the help wants signs and ads are proof that Ramp and Customer service work is worth more than $8 but a MBA holder at United is being paid about $22 an hour. Thanks the market I guess .. Join a Union Brothers and Sisters they can't fire all of us  

How much did the MBA guy pay for his so called education ???
 
dc10co
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:08 am

Many people seem to forget that in foreign countries, especially Europe, contract workers enjoy benefits such healthcare, paid vacation, sick time, paid maternity leave, etc. that are provided by or mandated by their respective governments which American workers are not privy to. Comparing staffing models of foreign carriers to their US counterparts is like comparing apples to oranges. Considering the state provided benefits of European carriers contract workers to a Mainline US Airline employee they likely enjoy a similar if not slightly better standard of living even while working for a contract company.

I don't think that UA will outsource additional stations as at some point the cost benefit of having contract work performed is negated. As sad as I was to see my coworkers jobs eleminated, frankly I was surprised that some stations still had mainline employees to begin with. There were also some stations on this list I was very disappointed to see go, but in due time I do think that they will once again be insourced. That may just be the optimist in me talking, but nonetheless.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 52):

Since I see by your profile that you are young I will forgive your ignorance as you clearly have a lot to learn about the real world. While this keep moving up the pyramid theory may work in your head, in reality it's not so simple and those stuck at the bottom of the pyramid are people with feelings and wants and needs who are struggling to survive. Just because you may have been born into more fortunate circumstances doesn't give you the right to deny those less fortunate a decent life. I'm not saying accumulating wealth is bad, but those at the bottom of the pyramid deserve a decent standard of living.

Furthermore I work alongside many educated, intelligent and capable individuals who have been with United in their current capacity for many decades. How dare you insinuate that they have somehow wasted their lives performing work that they enjoy and are good at? There is nothing wrong with working a decent job that you enjoy for your career, and there is certainly more to life than just money.
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
UA1K3MM
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:38 am

"Since I see by your profile that you are young I will forgive your ignorance as you clearly have a lot to learn about the real world." (Reply 66)

Dc10co --- you may want to take another look at LAXintl's profile page. It's kinda hard to be "young" 13-15 as indicated in the profile and been a member of this forum for 14 + years with over 26,000 postings. You may not agree with LADintl's comments, but normally the information in his posts are very creditable and factual.   
 
N104UA
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:22 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 61):
What's wrong with companies just paying their workers a little bit more. Corporate profits are at stunning highs, while wages are flat and even decreasing in some professions.


  

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 59):
So after taxes you get a whopping $14,955.21 or $1,246.27 per month, how easy do you think it would be to live on that?

That's were personal responsibility comes in. You need to differentiate yourself from the pack, make yourself more valuable if you seek to climb the social and job pyramid to live better.

Okay, you live on $1300 per month and let me know how that works out for you after paying rent, car payment, food, gas, insurance, and clothing. If you can still "make yourself more valuable" without taking out any debt.

Also, if we increased the minimum wage to $10.10/hr we would save $4.3 billion a year due to people no longer needing food stamps.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 62):
Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 61):
Corporate profits are at stunning highs,

Is that not the whole point of being a for profit business?

Anyhow, the US airline industry is still underwater. Since 1945 the industry has accumulated more in losses then profits.

Just since 9/11 US airline industry accumulated losses of $130.2 billion (per IATA) and with every major airline sans Southwest filing bankruptcy and wiping away even more billions in equity and debt.

Its hardly been a goldmine for investor owners of such enterprises.

Being a cyclical industry its only a matter of time before things head downward again, so hopefully today profits can cover for such eventuality.

So with UA stock being up at 37% year over year, AA at 34%, and DL at 22% obviously wall street doesn't think that the airlines will be making money in the next few quarters, sounds like wall street thinks it is a goldmine when the DOW is up only 8% YoY.

I don't agree with companies making a profit, but at what expense, if your employees are on food stamps you aren't a good corporate citizen.
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
UA1K3MM
Posts: 52
Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 5:10 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting dc10co (Reply 66):


"Many people seem to forget that in foreign countries, especially Europe, contract workers enjoy benefits such healthcare, paid vacation, sick time, paid maternity leave, etc. that are provided by or mandated by their respective governments which American workers are not privy to. Comparing staffing models of foreign carriers to their US counterparts is like comparing apples to oranges. Considering the state provided benefits of European carriers contract workers to a Mainline US Airline employee they likely enjoy a similar if not slightly better standard of living even while working for a contract company. "


This is a true statement, that the value for government mandated benefits and socialized medicine are not included in the wages paid to employees here in the United States. Comparing the benefits given to employees in our branch offices in England and Brazil for both hourly and salaried employees all working for the same faith based nonprofit it is crazy to see the cost differential and the added amount of mandated paid time off compared to our offices here in the USA.

So it must be considered in comparing the service models between global regions.   
 
777ord
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 33):
Turns out I couldn't handle it, at 60yoa I guess I'm just too old nowadays - I lasted all of a month or so, and was invited to resign as I was "too slow to be useful." I think that was the end of my airline days - the work is still fun, but it is quite strenuous, and just not very rewarding anymore.

You sir, just said very honest and factual based statements. THANK YOU! While I commend you for taking the chance, it also shows a problem that UAL (and others) has. Most of their (ramp) work force is getting up there in age and with that, comes a slowdown in their ability. I find it funny that they'll say, "Oh man, this is nothing. years ago we used to stack bins, clean planes, tow them etc...." then turn around and complain that 4 people is not enough for a CRJ200 turn with 40 min ground time....

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 41):

I believe ATS is starting to take over alot work for UA. I was in SLC and MSP recently and saw ATS branded equipment at the UA gates.

From what I hear, that's who got that contract.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):
Frankly the US is decades behind the world were contact vendors are the norm in airline industry.
Its unimaginable for an airline to employ everyone inhouse from the cleaner, to aircraft fueler to cargo warehouse staff when there are dozens of companies capable of providing the service.

But those countries don't also have the same problems we (USA) do with unions. They run the company they want and it shows.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49):
Why should someone who stayed doing same job for decades 'deserve better' ?

Because my value to the company is/should be worth more. My experience, skills and loyalty have grown over time.

And, the longer I stay with my employer, the longer they enjoy not having to pay additional to train someone else to replace me. That is/should be worth something.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 40):
nope, Unlimited flight days in the US. Parents and dependents get 18 flight days.

I can guarantee you its not unlimited flight days in the US. After 30 days its yield based. Unless they changed that in the past 6 months.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 64):
So first you argue that entry-level workers are not valuable enough to earn a living wage (good luck checking in and having your bag arrive with you without a ticket agent or a ramper, by the way) and that they should get a better job. When it was pointed out that better jobs require an education which is unobtainable on entry level wages, your response is basically oh well, they're screwed?

Not everyone can be the king.

The social and job pyramid is big on bottom and narrow on top.

Quoting dc10co (Reply 66):
Many people seem to forget that in foreign countries, especially Europe, contract workers enjoy benefits such healthcare, paid vacation, sick time, paid maternity leave, etc. that are provided by or mandated by their respective governments which American workers are not privy to.

Sure and overseas people pay much higher taxes. I have family in Sweden whose effective total tax rate is about 60%.

Quoting dc10co (Reply 66):
Since I see by your profile that you are young I will forgive your ignorance as you clearly have a lot to learn about the real world.

I'm much closer to retirement than starting out.

Quoting dc10co (Reply 66):
How dare you insinuate that they have somehow wasted their lives performing work that they enjoy and are good at? There is nothing wrong with working a decent job that you enjoy for your career, and there is certainly more to life than just money.

People are free to work any job they hold, but its nuts to simply say one deserves more because they have hung around for decades.
Job positions top out at a set salary at the end of the line. You want more compensation, move onto something higher or better.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 68):
Okay, you live on $1300 per month and let me know how that works out for you after paying rent, car payment, food, gas, insurance, and clothing. If you can still "make yourself more valuable" without taking out any debt.

Its a matter of living within your means.

Really makes no matter what minimum wage becomes as its all inflationary at the end, and $15 will be the new $8.

If you seek higher compensation, ultimately one needs to become more valuable in the job market.

Quoting N104UA (Reply 68):
So with UA stock being up at 37% year over year, AA at 34%, and DL at 22% obviously wall street doesn't think that the airlines will be making money in the next few quarters, sounds like wall street thinks it is a goldmine when the DOW is up only 8% YoY.

Its about time people earn a few dollars off the airline sector.
Makes up for the decades of losses and having ownership wiped out in BK's.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 71):
Because my value to the company is/should be worth more. My experience, skills and loyalty have grown over time.
And, the longer I stay with my employer, the longer they enjoy not having to pay additional to train someone else to replace me. That is/should be worth something.

Unfortunately reality does not support such. Your efficiency and value for a company does not increase endlessly with seniority. At some point it will plateau, and then actually decline where it could be a better return on a younger and lower paid employee.
Carrying a senior workforce at top of scale salaries and benefits will sink a company.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N104UA
Posts: 302
Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 73):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 68):
Okay, you live on $1300 per month and let me know how that works out for you after paying rent, car payment, food, gas, insurance, and clothing. If you can still "make yourself more valuable" without taking out any debt.

Its a matter of living within your means.

Really makes no matter what minimum wage becomes as its all inflationary at the end, and $15 will be the new $8.

If you seek higher compensation, ultimately one needs to become more valuable in the job market.

And becoming more valuable is easier at $15/hr instead of $8/hr

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 73):
Quoting N104UA (Reply 68):
So with UA stock being up at 37% year over year, AA at 34%, and DL at 22% obviously wall street doesn't think that the airlines will be making money in the next few quarters, sounds like wall street thinks it is a goldmine when the DOW is up only 8% YoY.

Its about time people earn a few dollars off the airline sector.
Makes up for the decades of losses and having ownership wiped out in BK's.

I am assuming you mean except the employees
"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1419
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 60):
Why pay $15/hr when thousands flock to work at $8?

No one's flocking to work at that level, though.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 72):
I can guarantee you its not unlimited flight days in the US. After 30 days its yield based. Unless they changed that in the past 6 months.

Well, I'm looking at my listing in TravelNet right now, and next to my name as the DGS employee and primary passrider it says "Unlimited" under Domestic. Granted, I've never tested it because I fly 5 or 6 times a year and drive to closer destinations. It's also not said anything different in the 2 and a half years I've been working this time around.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
User avatar
exFWAOONW
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:32 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 73):
Unfortunately reality does not support such. Your efficiency and value for a company does not increase endlessly with seniority. At some point it will plateau, and then actually decline where it could be a better return on a younger and lower paid employee.
Carrying a senior workforce at top of scale salaries and benefits will sink a company.

When your employer see the wisdom sees the wisdom of your philosophy, we'll talk.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
DualQual
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting 777ord (Reply 70):
But those countries don't also have the same problems we (USA) do with unions. They run the company they want and it shows.

You mean countries like France and Germany where striking is a national sport? Here it literally almost takes an act of Congress to allow an airline strike to occur.
There's no known cure for stupid

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