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staralliance85
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Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:59 pm

UA is currently outsourcing a number of line stations above the wing and below the wing, they are totally outsourcing both functions at 16 stations. I wonder if UA plans to outsource all of their line stations and only keep the hubs in-house? After this go-around, I wonder which protected station will be outsourced first, once the 2016 agreement expires. I'm thinking maybe BWI, PHL, PDX, SNA or PIT ??? UA seems to be very eager to outsource and cut staffing as part of their corporate strategy. When in time will all line stations be outsourced?
brad Fitzpatrick
 
lpdal
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:22 pm

I don't believe it has happened yet, but UA is going to outsource FLL in the coming months. Not sure about the front desk United Club agents--can those guys and gals even be outsourced? I know the bartenders are outsourced, but the newest bartender is actually pretty good and gives excellent service.

I have to say, though UA is my favorite airline, I don't understand the economics of outsourcing work domestically--wouldn't it be more expensive to hire someone else to do your work? For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

This is probably a gross oversimplification, but let's just say I have to mow my lawn. If I mow it myself, it'll be cheaper, but I'll have to put in the labor and etc. Now, I could hire a landscaper to mow my lawn, and sit in the living room drinking a soda in the air conditioning, but I'd pay a premium because I wasn't mowing the lawn myself, I'm paying somebody else to do it.

This teen is just trying to understand how all this "outsourcing" business works, and the associated economic viability...Sorry for any "apples to oranges" comparisons...

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

Except for the fact that UA can't just do that. They have a contract that says they pay X and they have to honor it.
In all of the cases the union representing the employees at the stations have been asked to submit a proposal that would allow them to continue in the current roles, as I understand it that would require a sub-agreement in the contract to execute.

The end result for those outsourced stations is that union could not match the costs of the subcontractor.

Also, remember that in a previous thread UA is going to create a ground handling unit similar to what both AA and DL have that will take over some stations. Those will be call outsourced as well (as I understand it, which I am sure someone here will correct me if I am wrong   ).
 
ANA787
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:12 pm

Throw SEA into that list as well. Nearly nonexistent nowadays.
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:14 pm

No they did a pay cut amended the contract at IND SJC BIL SAT and TUL for BTW and many others ATW
 
lpdal
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:18 pm

Regarding bennies for the outsourcers, do any give travel benefits? I thought Menzies did, but forgot.

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-04-03 10:29:15]
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
airplan727
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

I agree with you that it would be better to have the job with less pay, but oddly enough most employees don't see it that way. The new union contract as I understand gave employees the option to vote to take pay cuts in order to avoid having their job outsourced if the company wanted to consider outsourcing and most of the stations decided they'd rather attempt to transfer or just be laid off. Mainline employees make quite a bit more than $8.00. Many of those line stations employees have been with the company for quite some time and are making plenty of money. I personally know a mainline employee at a hub who has been with the company for just over a year and is making well over $13/hr. Many other mainline employees with many years of service under their belt are well over $20/hr. Outsourcing is far cheaper not just from a wage perspective, but also a benefits perspective. I almost wouldn't be surprised to see all this outsourcing happen in an effort to eliminate these high paid employees and then after a few years make the decision to bring mainline employees back as new hires at a more cost effective wage.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:28 pm

Even though the CBA is in effect until 2016, PDX and the other Tier II protected cities are protected until 2018 under the current contract.

I'm sure the next contract will have the axe swinging towards outsourcing the Tier II stations currently protected.
 
lpdal
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:36 pm

Someone explain all these "adult" terms and concepts to me, I'm 19.

Okay, so the contract protects the wages of the laborers and the union's proposal price was too high in comparison to what the outsourcers bid. From the above posts, it seems that UA can go and outsource any mainline station they see fit without any hindrance from the union. If the union can't keep mainline employees who perform their job competently in their current job in their current location, what is the point of the union???

Okay, so as far as I can see, these are the largest outsourcing companies on the ground:

-ASIG
-John Menzies and CO PLC
-Swissport
-Servisair
-Airport Terminal Services
-Quick Flight Services

Do any of these entities pay out flight / traveling benefits. On a previous thread, I have a dim memory that someone remarked that Menzies does pay out travel benefits on DL, but I can't seem to remember.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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airzim
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:44 pm

The true cost of employing someone is likely double their pay at these levels. Outsourcing is a good way for a company to reduce operational costs and replace with much cheaper staff for essentially unskilled labor. I'm not suggesting that ramp and GA's are talented or skilled at their profession. But what they do is not especially unique or requires special education or training.

Let's keep in mind that nearly all carriers outsource flying (regionals) and in the case of sUA even outsourced mainline longhaul flying (EI to MAD).

This is not unique to any airline, nor industry. Look at all the IT being shipped offshore.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:05 pm

Every time I see a thread about outsourcing the out-stations, it makes me wonder why the union didn't do more to protect the jobs? Once the stations are out-sourced, the dues paying, union members are lost (so no more dues!).

It also underscores the importance of Scope clauses for the other work groups.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
UA444
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:20 pm

The unions approved the deal because they were blinded by the pay raise, ignoring that the smaller stations would be SOL. If they're smart, they'll demand the stations be in sourced again and the ones they still have protected.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 11):
The unions approved the deal because they were blinded by the pay raise, ignoring that the smaller stations would be SOL. If they're smart, they'll demand the stations be in sourced again and the ones they still have protected.

I think you're right in essence. The union members wanted more dollars (hey, who doesn't?), but without job protections, how long do those greater pay rates last? For some UA employees, not long at all.

Which goes to my second point:

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 10):
It also underscores the importance of Scope clauses for the other work groups.

Maybe the agents will regain some form of Scope in the future. But this was a lesson learned the hard way.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
ericm2031
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Okay, so as far as I can see, these are the largest outsourcing companies on the ground:

-ASIG
-John Menzies and CO PLC
-Swissport
-Servisair
-Airport Terminal Services
-Quick Flight Services

For United, their top 3 contractors for its flights are DGS (Delta Global Services, which is a DL subsidiary), Envoy (formerly American Eagle, an AA subsidiary), and Skywest. Envoy receives identical benefits to what mainline AA workers get. Skywest has agreements with the carriers they fly for (AA/DL/US/UA/AS), I'm not sure what they have available in terms of ZED tickets on the rest of the airlines. I believe DGS gets some DL benefits, but I don't believe it is full benefits and is more like a pass system, but I may be wrong.

At a lot of stations there are also "counter agreements", where the airlines that serve that airport offer unique benefits to each other specific to that airport...usually a couple discounted or free passes a year.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 9):
sUA even outsourced mainline longhaul flying (EI to MAD).

This was a JV not outsourcing and has ended a while ago.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Do any of these entities pay out flight / traveling benefits. On a previous thread, I have a dim memory that someone remarked that Menzies does pay out travel benefits on DL, but I can't seem to remember.

The only ground handling company I know that has any sort of decent flight benefits would be DGS and Envoy, other than that the benefits any ground handling company offer doesn't even compare to what that of an airline employee gets.
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ua900
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 9):
The true cost of employing someone is likely double their pay at these levels.

Indeed. Once they are outsourced, it's essentially the cost of their W2 + any cut the outsourcing company takes.

Quoting airzim (Reply 9):
This is not unique to any airline, nor industry. Look at all the IT being shipped offshore.

Yup, increasing the good paying higher qualified jobs are going too. UA IT people could easily be next.
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hiflyeras
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
On a previous thread, I have a dim memory that someone remarked that Menzies does pay out travel benefits on DL, but I can't seem to remember.

Believe it's up to the contracting airline to offer flight benefits or not. I know AS does give travel benefits to Menzies contract staff but I don't know what that entails.
 
ual777
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 2):

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

Except for the fact that UA can't just do that. They have a contract that says they pay X and they have to honor it.
In all of the cases the union representing the employees at the stations have been asked to submit a proposal that would allow them to continue in the current roles, as I understand it that would require a sub-agreement in the contract to execute.

The end result for those outsourced stations is that union could not match the costs of the subcontractor.

Also, remember that in a previous thread UA is going to create a ground handling unit similar to what both AA and DL have that will take over some stations. Those will be call outsourced as well (as I understand it, which I am sure someone here will correct me if I am wrong   ).

Not all were offered the opportunity to rebid. JAX for example wasn't.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
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airzim
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:55 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):

Quoting airzim (Reply 9):
sUA even outsourced mainline longhaul flying (EI to MAD).

This was a JV not outsourcing and has ended a while ago.

The JV is irrelevant to this conversation. That's a financial arrangement on the accounting side.

If UA metal didn't fly IAD-MAD, that means UA pilots and Flight Attendants, UA Ground Staff (employees) didn't get a chance to operate the flight. All pay and benefits went to Aer Lingus staff. United couldn't profitably operate to MAD with the cost structure and fleet they had in place, but could share the cost/income with a 3rd party (just like it does with their regionals). That's great for United corporate, but lousy for hour based union employees.

The smaller the network, or flight offerings given to UA employees, the less opportunity to make an income to those employees. Taken to a logical conclusion, any reduction in expensive United employees is financially benefical to the company. Theoretically United could just become an asset with a logo, planes, and the sellers of tickets; but with no employees and everything operated by 3rd parties. Basically a franchise model. It says McDonalds on their shirts, on the front door and on the take out bags, but anyone who works at a McDonalds franchise works for someone other than McDonalds.

Agreed that it's no longer in operation, but the point is it was prior to the merger and effectively achieved the same ends as outsourcing ground operations at out stations today. Reduce the expense of having employees do the work.

[Edited 2015-04-03 13:09:25]
 
N353SK
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:45 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Okay, so the contract protects the wages of the laborers and the union's proposal price was too high in comparison to what the outsourcers bid. From the above posts, it seems that UA can go and outsource any mainline station they see fit without any hindrance from the union. If the union can't keep mainline employees who perform their job competently in their current job in their current location, what is the point of the union???

The IAM (United's ramp and customer service union) has a scope clause in their agreement with United. The scope section dictates where United is required to employ actual UAL employees and not contractors. The previous contract's scope clause dictated that UAL aircraft may only be worked by UAL employees. Because of scope many smaller stations were staffed by mainline because they had a few mainline flights a day (Wichita, Detroit, Oklahoma City for example). The new contract (went into effect about 18 months ago ... not 100% sure on that) has a different scope agreement. I'm not intimately familiar with it, but basically the IAM will tell you they gave up some scope in outstations to strengthen their hubs.

So, to answer your question, If United's rampers weren't organized you'd probably see them trying to put contractors in places like ORD.
 
T5towbar
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:15 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 10):
Every time I see a thread about outsourcing the out-stations, it makes me wonder why the union didn't do more to protect the jobs? Once the stations are out-sourced, the dues paying, union members are lost (so no more dues!).

It also underscores the importance of Scope clauses for the other work groups.

Scope is the most important thing. That was forgotten.
But the time of the contract, there was a lot of competing interestes, plus lies were told, and people took the money.
Here we are......

Quoting UA444 (Reply 11):
The unions approved the deal because they were blinded by the pay raise, ignoring that the smaller stations would be SOL. If they're smart, they'll demand the stations be in sourced again and the ones they still have protected.

Not every hub voted for this.
The task is now is to protect what we have and strenghten the scope. This can be accomplished, since the survivors won't be blinded by money. What is more money going to do if you don't have a job.

SCOPE FIRST!!!!!!!

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 14):
The only ground handling company I know that has any sort of decent flight benefits would be DGS and Envoy, other than that the benefits any ground handling company offer doesn't even compare to what that of an airline employee gets.

DGS and Envoy/Eagle are wholly owned, so their employees can only fly on DL and AA metal. Of course at a lower priority. SkyWest has flying on their metal as well.

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 7):
Even though the CBA is in effect until 2016, PDX and the other Tier II protected cities are protected until 2018 under the current contract.

I'm sure the next contract will have the axe swinging towards outsourcing the Tier II stations currently protected.

And that is why we must fight to protect and keep the remaining stations under scope. Especially the ones that were recently insourced. The people that are recently outsourced from the 28 will be getting their options soon. Hopefully they can find places where they will be ok for them.
New leadership at the table and a stronger focus will be important.

Quoting airplan727 (Reply 6):
Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

I agree with you that it would be better to have the job with less pay, but oddly enough most employees don't see it that way. The new union contract as I understand gave employees the option to vote to take pay cuts in order to avoid having their job outsourced if the company wanted to consider outsourcing and most of the stations decided they'd rather attempt to transfer or just be laid off. Mainline employees make quite a bit more than $8.00. Many of those line stations employees have been with the company for quite some time and are making plenty of money. I personally know a mainline employee at a hub who has been with the company for just over a year and is making well over $13/hr. Many other mainline employees with many years of service under their belt are well over $20/hr. Outsourcing is far cheaper not just from a wage perspective, but also a benefits perspective. I almost wouldn't be surprised to see all this outsourcing happen in an effort to eliminate these high paid employees and then after a few years make the decision to bring mainline employees back as new hires at a more cost effective wage.

Unless that employee you are talking about is a newly minted Lead, he can't be making 13.00 after one year of service.
As of 1/1/15, that employee is making 12.05 per hour. And if working the PM shift, and additional 48 cents. There hasn't been a whole lot of hiring to match the attrition. There should be hiring, since the genuises at Willis has these staffing models and not enough coverage in may areas. Trying to reinvent the wheel and adding layers of management doesn't help either. But I digress. And line station employees are much senior to a hub, since you have to have some time on the job to move from a hub to the line. And if the company offered a much better out package (since the company robbed the pensions of many) you would get the numbers you need by natural attrition. Now people have to stay on the job longer. That is one of the consequences in all of this.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
ericm2031
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:17 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 20):
DGS and Envoy/Eagle are wholly owned, so their employees can only fly on DL and AA metal. Of course at a lower priority. SkyWest has flying on their metal as well.

Envoy/Eagle employees get identical flight benefits as mainline AA employees do...as well as travel at the same priority. They can also can fly on ZED tickets as mainline AA employees do on other airlines. They also get the same benefits on US as AA employees get.
 
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exFWAOONW
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Do any of these entities pay out flight / traveling benefits. On a previous thread, I have a dim memory that someone remarked that Menzies does pay out travel benefits on DL, but I can't seem to remember.

If you're only getting $8.00 an hour and they gave you positve space tickets to any on-line location, the only thing you could afford to do with them is wipe your a$$.
Let me illustrate it another way. I started at OH in INDY when I was 19. I was making almost $5/hr (mind you this was almost 30 years ago). My wife and I flew to MKE on a Sunday afternoon for something to do. All we could do was ride the bus downtown, walk around, and go home. We had to debate if we could stop at McDonalds and still pay the rent. This was with her income also.

Taking semi-well-paid employees and replacing them with 19year-olds who don't know the value of working for money is what UA is trying to do on a large scale. They think it will increase their bottom line, giving them a bigger profit (or smaller loss) in the short term. But, in reality, it will only shift costs to other areas like advertising to replace the customers they lose in the long term.
Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:16 am

UA is hiring more managers to try to set up a DGS kind of operation for United .. Another Huge money flush down the toilet ,,, UA needs to be an Aiine not a DGS or Mezies or Simplicity
 
Freshside3
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 20):
plus lies were told,

The M.O. of the Smisek regime.

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 22):
Taking semi-well-paid employees and replacing them with 19year-olds who don't know the value of working for money is what UA is trying to do on a large scale. They think it will increase their bottom line, giving them a bigger profit (or smaller loss) in the short term. But, in reality, it will only shift costs to other areas like advertising to replace the customers they lose in the long term.

True here. Having inept people is not good for a company. Customers will not get quality service, and they will walk away. And for most people that work for an outsourcing firm, the job is temporary, also. They will make their money, get their experience, and move onto something better(whether in this industry, or outside). No "pride in work".

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):



UA is hiring more managers to try to set up a DGS kind of operation for United .. Another Huge money flush down the toilet ,,, UA needs to be an Aiine not a DGS or Mezies or Simplicity

Outsourcing has its place, where you have a have a station with 3 flights. But a major failure,when applied on a broad scale.
 
jetmatt777
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:34 am

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 20):

And that is why we must fight to protect and keep the remaining stations under scope. Especially the ones that were recently insourced. The people that are recently outsourced from the 28 will be getting their options soon. Hopefully they can find places where they will be ok for them.
New leadership at the table and a

Unfortunately those of us in the outsourced cities won't be going to the new insourced cities as part of the system bid process, since they decided overnight to award those cities ahead of time. The people they are moving with system options will most likely be to SFO, EWR, and IAD.

I went ahead and took a part time transfer to an insourced city. So I will be moving on my own dime, and won't receive any assistance from United.

We received an email more than a month ago: if you want an insourced city put your transfer in by close of business the following day.

They initially told us they were to save those cities to absorb all of us being outsourced, but tried to sneak filling them behind our backs. Word leaked out at the last minute and the flood gates opened at the system bid desk.
 
thegoldenargosy
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:11 pm

They're the making the pizza so cheap at UA, no one will want it.
 
strfyr51
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:54 pm

that's why they have Tech Schools and Colleges. If you want good Money? Get the training. Many people have said Loading bags was supposed to be a job waiting for someone to take it .
Nof for someone to keep it. Yeah it's honest work but it's work anybody can do.
You're supposed to be striving for MORE!!
 
eastern747
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:07 pm

There is a big difference between the employee that will say "I have a JOB at United or I work for United Airlines". Wait until these hired out sourced folks have to handle delays, cancellations, screaming rude passengers. The seasoned people can do this because they know how. The outsourced people will be clueless and the passengers will be the ones who suffer. When I first started at EA, I felt I would retire there. People today don't have loyalty and basically just keep changing jobs. This policy at UA and others are going to bite them in the ass. The poor folks that have been outsourced, also become very tragic. Wait until the new $8.00/hr wakes up to find he has no benefits, health care, and has to pay for the uniform. Sad day for airlines and passengers.
 
airplan727
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting T5towbar (Reply 20):
As of 1/1/15, that employee is making 12.05 per hour. And if working the PM shift, and additional 48 cents.

I was off on the timing. This employee has been working there for just over 2 years now and is not an SD. They do make over $13/hr plus the night differential. So nearly $14/hr including the differential. Regardless of the exact dollar amount it still holds true that the cost of the outsourced employee is far less than the cost of the mainline employee. The cost incurred by the loss of experienced or at least dedicated service is still far more.
 
T5towbar
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 25):
Unfortunately those of us in the outsourced cities won't be going to the new insourced cities as part of the system bid process, since they decided overnight to award those cities ahead of time. The people they are moving with system options will most likely be to SFO, EWR, and IAD.

I went ahead and took a part time transfer to an insourced city. So I will be moving on my own dime, and won't receive any assistance from United.

We received an email more than a month ago: if you want an insourced city put your transfer in by close of business the following day.

They initially told us they were to save those cities to absorb all of us being outsourced, but tried to sneak filling them behind our backs. Word leaked out at the last minute and the flood gates opened at the system bid desk.

Yeah, I forgot that they went to the bid file list first, before going to the 28. You are right that many put their bids in prior to the announcements. Plus the company is limiting the options (and at the same time trying to limit a "bump and flush" to avoid paying for a lot of moves) by decreasing the station options (by limiting the FT) and offering PT at some of the insourced stations. I don't know what cities are offered, but the usual suspects like SFO and IAD will probably be in play. We could use some people at our station too, since the new staffing model is killing us.

Best of luck to you and I hope thing will work out.
A comment from an Ex CON: Work Hard.....Fly Standby!
 
burnsie28
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 13):
I believe DGS gets some DL benefits, but I don't believe it is full benefits and is more like a pass system, but I may be wrong.

Non supervisors in DGS get lower priority boarding and 30 flight days a year.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:06 pm

I work at one of the in-sourced stations. They are bringing in 7 FT and 4 PT for the ramp. We also have 4 FT and 1 PT transferring out. I don't know if those later positions will be filled by furloughed co-workers or more co-workers off of the transfer list? The people that accepted the transfers can turn it down at any time before the May 17th report date to their new station.
 
G4LASRamper
Posts: 87
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:55 pm

When ABQ became an contract station last year, I signed on as a ramper just to see if I could still do it (I haven't worked as a ramper since 2007, and not in any airline job since 2009). ABQ is a small outstation, just one mainline turn most days; the rest of the dozen or so turns and RONs are regionals. The contractor in ABQ is PrimeFlight. It's $9/hour (the same as at G4 in LAS when I started there in 2006) - no raises or step increases ever, no benefits, no passes mainline or otherwise. And you pay for parking, though that's not nearly as expensive as some of the horror stories I've heard about employee parking at some of the major east coast hubs.

Turns out I couldn't handle it, at 60yoa I guess I'm just too old nowadays - I lasted all of a month or so, and was invited to resign as I was "too slow to be useful." I think that was the end of my airline days - the work is still fun, but it is quite strenuous, and just not very rewarding anymore.

[Edited 2015-04-04 09:00:26]
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
 
style
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Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:19 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.
Quoting airplan727 (Reply 6):
Mainline employees make quite a bit more than $8.00. Many of those line stations employees have been with the company for quite some time and are making plenty of money. I personally know a mainline employee at a hub who has been with the company for just over a year and is making well over $13/hr. Many other mainline employees with many years of service under their belt are well over $20/hr. Outsourcing is far cheaper not just from a wage perspective, but also a benefits perspective. I almost wouldn't be surprised to see all this outsourcing happen in an effort to eliminate these high paid employees and then after a few years make the decision to bring mainline employees back as new hires at a more cost effective wage.



With all due respect, do either of you know the definition of a respectable wage? Have we really just panned the airline customer service job into a minimum wage job? You make it like $20/hr is "high paid". Maybe in a select amount of cities in the country $20/hr is considered "high paid" but for 80% of the country its nothing more than an average wage.

I'm not saying the airline customer service job is rocket science or requires a masters degree but I love how some on here try to put it at the level of minimum wage. In the end the airline will get what it pays for. If it wants cheap labor, it will get higher turnover, more training costs, and an inconsistent product throughout the network.

Gordon Bethune had a really good book, it was called "From worst to First". Not once did I read anything about minimum wage in that book.
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:02 pm

Also it took me over 17 years to make $20 . Starting wage at the Bakery next to our airport is $15 and weekends off . The flights are so full it's hard to non rev; so we had a few first year hires quit . Some went to Southwest for a stable future and some to the Bakery .. Jobs that require nites weekends background and drug tests are not $8 Jobs . The bakery likes the former UA employees because UA spent like $300 on the Physical Drug test and background checks . so easier for the Bakery to verify.
 
lpdal
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:16 pm

With all due respect, yes, I am aware of what a respectable wage is.

My wages were examples, and not actual pay rates of any specific jobs.

-LPDAL
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
airplan727
Posts: 54
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 35):
Jobs that require nites weekends background and drug tests are not $8 Jobs .

Not to say that I think that I think airline jobs are $8 jobs, but there are plenty of jobs that require nights, weekends and background and drug tests that do pay $8.


Quoting Reply 34):

$20 is a high paid wage for unskilled labor. The job requires a large amount of training, but does not require anything more than a high school diploma. It is a challenging job regardless, but so are a large range of public contact positions as well as positions that require work in adverse conditions with much physical labor. There are many people who have put the years of service in to make it up to and beyond those wages and that's their reward for having the commitment and gaining the experience. However from a business stand point the company can hire new people and with the proper training they will be able to perform 95% of the job just as well as the person with 20 years for half the price. Most of the country also does not have wages this high for unskilled labor. Maybe places like New York or Los Angeles etc, but not the majority of the of the country.
 
COSPN
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Strive for more ?? Well I'd rather make 50k working airplanes than get a useless degree sit in an Office in Chicago with my MBA and zero airline experience and make 89k trying to run some kind of staff model computer that is bogus or cut EWR to the bone and have planes waiting to get to the gate   .... UA need lot less 89k MBA and lots more hard working employees making around 50k a year .
 
style
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting airplan727 (Reply 37):
$20 is a high paid wage for unskilled labor. The job requires a large amount of training, but does not require anything more than a high school diploma. It is a challenging job regardless, but so are a large range of public contact positions as well as positions that require work in adverse conditions with much physical labor. There are many people who have put the years of service in to make it up to and beyond those wages and that's their reward for having the commitment and gaining the experience. However from a business stand point the company can hire new people and with the proper training they will be able to perform 95% of the job just as well as the person with 20 years for half the price. Most of the country also does not have wages this high for unskilled labor. Maybe places like New York or Los Angeles etc, but not the majority of the of the country.

Thank you for determining for all of us that $20 is a high paid wage for unskilled labor. Please look at the demographics for the country, the majority clearly lives in higher cost areas, not just NY or LA. City living in general is higher cost, this is where you will find most of these jobs.

It all comes down to the companies that value their employees and pay them respectable wages.
There are companies like Southwest, Costco, and Home Depot that pay their employees respectable and fair wages. Is it a coincidence that these companies consistently rank high among employee and customer satisfaction? I don't think so.

Problem is that we have created a ridiculous disparity from the CEO all the way to the frontline employee. We don't even blink anymore when we hear a CEO got a $30 million payout last year but we gasp that a customer service employee at $20/hr is too much.

I guess in the end we will see who wins the race to the bottom. It is a shame this is what we expect now, not the other way around.

[Edited 2015-04-04 14:43:34]
 
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antoniemey
Posts: 1419
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:13 pm

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 13):
I believe DGS gets some DL benefits, but I don't believe it is full benefits and is more like a pass system, but I may be wrong.

Full standby priveledges, but at a lower priority than mainline DL.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 31):
Non supervisors in DGS get lower priority boarding and 30 flight days a year.

nope, Unlimited flight days in the US. Parents and dependents get 18 flight days.

"Ready Reserve" (8 hours/month to 19.5 hours/week) get only 18 flight days per year as well.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
dlramp4life
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
Okay, so as far as I can see, these are the largest outsourcing companies on the ground:

-ASIG
-John Menzies and CO PLC
-Swissport
-Servisair
-Airport Terminal Services
-Quick Flight Services

There are so many contractors out there. But alot of the contractors you listed focus more on the ULCC or International market. Quick Flight for example, most of their work is focused on G4 and Silver Airways.

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 13):
For United, their top 3 contractors for its flights are DGS (Delta Global Services, which is a DL subsidiary), Envoy (formerly American Eagle, an AA subsidiary), and Skywest. Envoy receives identical benefits to what mainline AA workers get. Skywest has agreements with the carriers they fly for (AA/DL/US/UA/AS), I'm not sure what they have available in terms of ZED tickets on the rest of the airlines. I believe DGS gets some DL benefits, but I don't believe it is full benefits and is more like a pass system, but I may be wrong.

I believe ATS is starting to take over alot work for UA. I was in SLC and MSP recently and saw ATS branded equipment at the UA gates.

DGS gets flight benefits on all DL flights. They are below active DL employees and active employees travel companions. They are an S3C I believe.

Also companies like Swissport, Menzies, ASIG, and ATS get zero flight benefits.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 1):
I have to say, though UA is my favorite airline, I don't understand the economics of outsourcing work domestically--wouldn't it be more expensive to hire someone else to do your work? For example, if the outsourced workers are paid $8.00 an hour, while mainline UA starts at $9.50 an hour, or whatever, couldn't mainline UA just slash the pay down to $8.00 an hour? Yes, that would be quite controversial, but a job is better than no job.

Remember, the cost of an employee isn't only his/her salary. You need to factor in the cost of vacation (paying someone while they are not working), healthcare, retirement plan, OJI, etc. This is all in the hands of the contract company if the coin is on the other side. This, is really what they employer is trying to avoid, not the actual salary. This is why DL does so well with the RR program (although starting this month, they are now eligible for PPT).

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 8):
-ASIG
-John Menzies and CO PLC
-Swissport
-Servisair
-Airport Terminal Services
-Quick Flight Services

Add Envoy and DGS to that list. Both are much larger than some of those listed.

Quoting ericm2031 (Reply 21):
Envoy/Eagle employees get identical flight benefits as mainline AA employees do...as well as travel at the same priority. They can also can fly on ZED tickets as mainline AA employees do on other airlines. They also get the same benefits on US as AA employees get.

Allegedly, there's something in the works (or at least looking at it) to change this down the road.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 40):
"Ready Reserve" (8 hours/month to 19.5 hours/week) get only 18 flight days per year as well.

This isn't true. Ready Reserve flight benefits is identical to a PT or FT agent. Additionally, seasonal RRs get to keep their benefits even when not working. It's the draw DL uses to get them back the following year/season if there's college kids, or people just looking for temp work.
What gets measured gets done.
 
airplan727
Posts: 54
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:01 pm

Quoting Reply 39):


It all comes down to the companies that value their employees and pay them respectable wages.
There are companies like Southwest, Costco, and Home Depot that pay their employees respectable and fair wages. Is it a coincidence that these companies consistently rank high among employee and customer satisfaction? I don't think so?
[Edited 2015-04-04 14:43:34]

I just want to make sure you know that the average starting wage for Costco and Home Depot is $11-14/hr for entry level positions. No where near $20. In fact for Home Depot's store management (not the store manager, but lower level store management) is closer to that $20-25 range.

Southwest employees also do not make that much. I was offered a ramp position in DEN about a year ago and their starting wage was $11. Less than UA starting wage for a mainline employee. Also the outsourced positions do have experience pay. There were a number of Skywest employees in DEN who were offered jobs making more than they were at skywest hourly. The benefits were a far cry from being comparable.

Target also rates high among employees and customers and their average starting wage across ithe country is $9-10.50.

The average salary for a college graduate last time I looked was $35-45k/year ($17-21/hr).

Skilled labor however (electricians, plumbers, HVAC, mechanics, etc) are averaging a starting a wage of $20-25/hr.

Admittedly it has been about a year since I last had reason to look at these numbers exactly, but those were approximately the national averages at the time.

I am not opposed to people making that much, but it's not just the CEOs who are the problem. The American consumer wants things as cheap as possible and the best way to get things cheaper is to cut costs. One of those ways is to cut the highest expense any company has (payroll). It's also people in the stock market who want to see strong profits, low costs, etc. if one company decides to pay their employees more and raises ticket prices to offset the increase in costs it is a guarantee that the majority of consumers will flock to companies with lower prices.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25180
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):

UA is hiring more managers to try to set up a DGS kind of operation for United .. Another Huge money flush down the toilet ,,,

Actually its about time United finally gets onboard and creates its own subsidiary. They were about to do so previously under the United Services banner but 9/11 caused a big corporate distraction.

What is a huge flush of money down the toilet is subsidizing your competitors subsidiaries when you can form a lower cost base handling firm inhouse yourself.

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 24):
But a major failure,when applied on a broad scale.

Not at all.

Some of the world most respected and customer service centric airlines outsource even at their hubs. EK @ DXB, SQ @ SIN, and LH below wing @ FRA are all some examples premier airlines using vendors at their home hubs even very satisfactorily.

Frankly the US is decades behind the world were contact vendors are the norm in airline industry.
Its unimaginable for an airline to employ everyone inhouse from the cleaner, to aircraft fueler to cargo warehouse staff when there are dozens of companies capable of providing the service.

Quoting Reply 39):
Thank you for determining for all of us that $20 is a high paid wage for unskilled labor. Please look at the demographics for the country, the majority clearly lives in higher cost areas, not just NY or LA. City living in general is higher cost, this is where you will find most of these jobs.

No one needs to determine such. The market does it for you.

Really no reason a airline cabin cleaner needs to earn $22/hr when an average cleaner/janitor might make $10 outside the airport, or why an airline CSA makes $24 when front desk staff at at 5-Star hotel are in the $14-16 range.

Quoting Reply 39):
Problem is that we have created a ridiculous disparity from the CEO all the way to the frontline employee. We don't even blink anymore when we hear a CEO got a $30 million payout last year but we gasp that a customer service employee at $20/hr is too much.

Like as has been mentioned before society is like a pyramid. The bottom is large and top is small. Masses of folk can do the jobs towards the bottom, yet very few manage to qualify for the positions on top.

Its a matter of simple supply and demand. People are tripping over themselves to apply for $10 jobs, while it might take a recruiting firm months to find a couple CEO candidates. Pay is commensurate.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
style
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RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting airplan727 (Reply 43):
I just want to make sure you know that the average starting wage for Costco and Home Depot is $11-14/hr for entry level positions. No where near $20. In fact for Home Depot's store management (not the store manager, but lower level store management) is closer to that $20-25 range.

When did I ever say the $20/hr was for a starting wage? The UA employees in these affected stations making that much have all been with the company atleast 10 years. I would also assume a starting CS position for UA or DL or WN is around the $11 mark as well, this being for the position of Ramp or Customer Service. Maybe someone in one of those positions can fill us in on the actual starting and topped off wages.

I agree that it's a combination of things that are part of the problem, such as wall street and the consumers appetite for the cheapest price. But some leaders look at their employees as a valuable part of their business. While others just look at raw data sheats and think cutting their way to profitability is the way to go.

Quoting COSPN (Reply 38):
UA need lot less 89k MBA and lots more hard working employees making around 50k a year .

I think this is one of UA's biggest problems. Too many layers of management and not enough positions to provide good customer service. Why have 15 agents staffed at the ticket counter in a hub to check in customers when you can hire an MBA to write up a data sheet telling you that its doable with just 10? Then they wonder why they rank at the bottom in customer service and operational performance.
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:23 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting COSPN (Reply 23):
UA is hiring more managers to try to set up a DGS kind of operation for United .. Another Huge money flush down the toilet ,,, UA needs to be an Aiine not a DGS or Mezies or Simplicit

How is that a waste? The DGS product does more then just DL and they are pretty giant company bringing in profits? I believe you may have your facts twisted about the ground handling industry as a whole.
 
CMHFlyGuy
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:26 am

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:42 pm

Quoting Reply 34):
With all due respect, do either of you know the definition of a respectable wage? Have we really just panned the airline customer service job into a minimum wage job? You make it like $20/hr is "high paid". Maybe in a select amount of cities in the country $20/hr is considered "high paid" but for 80% of the country its nothing more than an average wage.

Thank you, Style. For real.

Quoting airplan727 (Reply 37):
$20 is a high paid wage for unskilled labor. The job requires a large amount of training, but does not require anything more than a high school diploma. It is a challenging job regardless, but so are a large range of public contact positions as well as positions that require work in adverse conditions with much physical labor.

I don't work in the aviation industry -- it's just a passionate hobby for me. I do, however, work in the customer service industry, and have my entire career. You are technically correct that customer service does not require anything more than a high school diploma. But the vast majority of people seem unable to comprehend it, even if they are capable, including SMI/J. Customer Service -- especially face-to-face customer service -- requires patience and grace under fire. It requires regular abuse. It requires a passion to serve people and help. It requires a very optimistic outlook on life and people.

You're right that the people who stay in customer service for 20-30 years should get a reward for doing so -- but $20-25 an hour for it isn't enough. AT ALL. Customer service is literally one of the most draining-on-your-soul jobs you can have. You see the worst out of people all day every day. You think quickly to resolve extraordinary situations every day before they become major catastrophes for the company -- and any more you do it having to worry if your interaction is going to end up on YouTube as a video or audio recording.

I've worked in call centers the last eight years and I've not earned less than $13.94/hour. And I get a mute button and nobody can see my body language except my coworkers. And I LIKE and AM GOOD AT my job. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't trade my job for the world.

But I would say there's really only a small group of people on this planet earth who can do customer service work -- call center or in person -- for 20 to 30 years. And they deserve better than $25/hour. And people starting deserve better than $8/hour!

[Edited 2015-04-04 16:44:42]
 
style
Posts: 208
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 12:40 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 44):

I am not debating the supply and demand argument. Like you said, there will be a lot more people applying for the $10/hr job as opposed to a CEO job. In the end, I believe you get what you pay for. Respectable wages and benefits will get you dedicated employees and employees that will go the extra mile wanting to participate in the success of the company they work for. Low wages and benefits will get you high turnover and someone who just views it as another job.

Don't take my word for it, the CEO's of DL, UA, AA, WN all say that the key to success in the airline business is good customer service. If I were a betting man I would put my money on the airline that pays its employees better wages and benefits. The airline that outsources to the lowest bidder and cuts away will show that in customer service ratings and operational performance.
 
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LAXintl
Posts: 25180
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Future On UA Line Stations?

Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting cmhflyguy (Reply 47):
And they deserve better than $25/hour. And people starting, deserve better than $8/hour.

Two simple questions;

1) Why should someone who stayed doing same job for decades 'deserve better' ?

and

2) Why should someone starting out 'deserve better' if $8 happens to be the prevailing going rate and company the does not seem to have trouble hiring at such rate?

Just curious..
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California

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