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PlaneInsomniac
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:40 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 126):
You have a picture and mfg reference of said door(s)
Quoting tomlee (Reply 126):
You should be able to produce something that is online that shows this design.

Nobody here owes you anything. This is preposterous. How about you prove the opposite?

Moreover, rabenschlag is right. It is fairly common in Germany to have standard door locks - with a removable key that can be inserted from both sides - in bathroom doors.

Beyond that, this entire discussion is in any case completely irrelevant for the Bild quote, which merely states that the copilot "once locked himself inside a bathroom". This does not imply - nor has anybody claimed - that he locked himself in in such a manner that the door could not have been opened anymore from the outside for any technical reason. Rather, it concerns the relationship with his girlfriend and his mental state. If you are in a relationship and your partner locks himself in the bathroom for hours, you will not necessarily even try to open the door by force or manipulating the lock somehow. The statement that he locked himself in merely illustrates his temperament.

That some people use this quote as a starting point for the discussion of German door lock mechanisms is beyond bizarre, IMHO.

And that this culminates in somebody who has apparently never set foot in a German private residence demanding "proof" of how bathroom door lock in Germany look from other posters is surreal.
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
Mastropiero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:04 pm

I've done my best to stay up to date reading all the threads but, in case I have missed what I am about to ask having been discussed, I apologise in advance.

A friend linked me to a blog, in the entry linked the whole official explanation is questioned. Most of the arguments are rubbish (in my opinion) so I disregard entirely the whole theory proposed.

However, there are a couple of things that got me intrigued. They are arguments presented by Gerard Arnoux, AF pilot, on TV. Sorry, it is in French - which I do not speak - but the blogger did translate it.

http://m.canalplus.fr/?vid=1238310

First point Cpt Arnoux makes questions the CVR having recorded the sound of Lubitz's breathing, claiming that the cockpit of a first gen A320 is extremely noisy, to the extent of the pilots having to communicate with each other through their headsets. Is this correct?


He also questions the claim that the bip/noise the automatic pilot produced when the pilot set the vertical speed was recorded by the CVR, asserting that the V/S knob does not emit any sound whatsoever when manipulated.

Lastly he wonders why no one mentioned the CVR recording the horn sound the door lock system would emit when the pilot locked outside would introduce his key.


As I stated, I don't speak French so I have to rely on what is written in this blog (I'll provide the link later, it is in Spanish unfortunately); also, I have no interest in conspiranoic theories. I just wanted to have a clarification on this few points since they are the only ones I care about as being made by a pilot.


Thank you all.

http://astillasderealidad.blogspot.c...-version-oficial.html?spref=fb&m=1

[Edited 2015-04-09 09:09:25]
 
Pihero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:15 pm

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 151):
questions the CVR having recorded the sound of Lubitz's breathing, claiming that the cockpit of a first gen A320 is extremely noisy, to the extent of the pilots having to communicate with each other through their headsets. Is this correct?

He is right... but only about AF airplanes, in which some very company-minded soul had had Airbus remove all the noise insulation / lining... etc;;; for weight and hence fuel economy reasons.
That made a bit of a scandal when found out... and was rectified.
As a matter of fact, the 320 is the least noisy single aisle plane.
This video proves it This video proves it
You could go quickly to the takeoff and approach phases.

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 151):
He also questions the claim that the bip/noise the automatic pilot produced when the pilot set the vertical speed was recorded by the CVR, asserting that the V/S knob does not emit any sound whatsoever when manipulated

There is little sound coming from the HDG and ALt buttons.
You can hear just about everything else : capt's seat motor, flaps, A/THR etc...
Headsets off above 10,000 ft explanations fromù^thge copilot on, his PilotPad are very clear...

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 151):
Lastly he wonders why no one mentioned the CVR recording the horn sound the door lock system would emit when the pilot locked outside would introduce his key.

He should be careful with that statement : he doesn't know the LH equipment.

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 151):
I just wanted to have a clarification on this few points since they are the only ones I care about as being made by a pilot.

It's probably just a matter of interpretation between the BEA and the prosecutor's services. It is quite obvious that, had the BEA used powerful sound and frequency filters, they could have achieved a lot more precise sound analysis.

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 151):
First point Cpt Arnoux makes questions the CVR having recorded the sound of Lubitz's breathing

With the above proviso, we don't know whether the copilot had his O2 mask on, which would make a louder, clearer noise.
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Pihero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 152):
we don't know whether the copilot had his O2 mask on, which would make a louder, clearer noise.


I need to apologize and make a correction :
For the CVR, the pilots' microphone of their headsets is always *hot*, whether the push-to-talk switch is used or not or whether the Interphone is selected or not.

See :

"All sounds received by the microphones listed in 3.2.1 a), b) and, where applicable, d),
shall be recorded irrespective of the position of the RT/IC selector switch; the wiring
shall be such that sidetone is produced only when R/T or I/C is selected.
"

These paragraphs 3.2.1 a and b are :

" Each cockpit voice recorder shall have a minimum of four channels and shall be installed
with inputs as follows:
a) for the first channel, from each microphone and headset used at the first pilot
station,
b) for the second channel, from each microphone and headset used at the second
pilot station"


For those interested, this is the CAA (UK) official document on Cockpît Voice Recorders

There is a lot of technical requirements on the *area microphone* as well, but my knowledge of acoustics isn't enough to let me confirm whether it could have picked the sounds of a moving Altitude button on the FCU.

So ... the CVR must have picked the F/O's breathing, even without O2 mask on.
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Mastropiero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:46 pm

Thank you, Pihero, for your answers and your correction. The latter, however has left me wondering: while interesting and important, what you have explained here...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 157):
I need to apologize and make a correction :
For the CVR, the pilots' microphone of their headsets is always *hot*, whether the push-to-talk switch is used or not or whether the Interphone is selected or not.

....would be an assumption, we would work under the premise that the pilot was wearing his headset, thus allowing the CVR to pick up the noise of his breathing, correct? Makes one wonder why would he keep it on when he was already committed to crashing the aircraft.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 152):
He should be careful with that statement : he doesn't know the LH equipment.

Does this mean that this kind of features are customisable by the airline? I would have thought they come preset from the manufacturer.


I have another question: is it feasible to connect the autopilot to the GPS in such way that if a certain altitude is set along with a certain vertical speed at a certain point, the FMS would realise that that input would result in a nasty encounter with terra firma and not allow the pilot to set that altitude?

Granted, this doesn't do anything against hand flying the thing into the mountains, but I am curious.
 
tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Mastropiero (Reply 169):
I have another question: is it feasible to connect the autopilot to the GPS in such way that if a certain altitude is set along with a certain vertical speed at a certain point, the FMS would realise that that input would result in a nasty encounter with terra firma and not allow the pilot to set that altitude?

Technically speaking it has already been done (the warnings, and the auto restriction),
http://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldw...c-collision-avoidance-system-t2cas
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ipp/cent...C-012-033-collision-avoidance.html

Getting it to work for intentional acts is a whole other problem as pilots can just ignore/disable the computers that provide those protections. (Some computers in newer planes have no off switch but they are currently quite basic backup systems, even the CVR/FDR used to have an effective off switch in newer regs the flight data recorders have a short duration independent battery supply so that even if you disable them they still will record regardless of intention for a few minutes)

[Edited 2015-04-09 15:58:35]
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:41 am

I really think some diatribes here about keys locks and construction codes, should go into de NON av forum and I am not joking.

Seeing that Airline employees, crews and specially pilots now have such enduring schedules, pressure, stress and ever-changing environments and even food, I guess the airlines should screen the burn out factor and stress level of their employees, It may not prevent another tragedy but it will try to inject some humane comprehension and better work conditions to employees.

TRB
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tomlee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 173):
Seeing that Airline employees, crews and specially pilots now have such enduring schedules, pressure, stress and ever-changing environments and even food, I guess the airlines should screen the burn out factor and stress level of their employees, It may not prevent another tragedy but it will try to inject some humane comprehension and better work conditions to employees.


What do you mean by screen out the burn out factor and stress. Getting stressed out will ground a pilot? Wouldn't that just increase stress or encourage people to hide their stress/burnout.

Improving quality of life for pilots in general will help much more than any screening process that just catches countless pilots who would never crash their planes intentionally just because they are stressed out. You'll have a mountain of false positives and people evading the screen to protect their career. If you just make a program to reduce stress in general you'd achieve better results.

[Edited 2015-04-09 20:48:11]
 
Mastropiero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:20 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
What do you mean by screen out the burn out factor and stress. Getting stressed out will ground a pilot? Wouldn't that just increase stress or encourage people to hide their stress/burnout.

I am fairly sure TRB's post had much more to do with the latter part of your post than with he one I quote, I fail to see any implication of that sort in what he wrote.
 
AF185
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:20 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ights-to-french-alps-10167000.html

Story came out that a person claimed to be one of the deceased passenger's cousin to fly for free to France..
How cynical and greedy can that person be to abuse the system while actual families are mourning!? Shocking
 
PanHAM
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:37 pm

She actually flew to France twice and even took others along, at the expense of LH. The DA investigates fraud.

.
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:11 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
What do you mean by screen out the burn out factor and stress.

Meaning that, pilots with long haul flights and crews with milk run routes, have distinct ways of getting tired/stressed because the work loads are very different, you need to assess the effects of those work conditions, also the facility or difficulty in crews with a first class cabin or Economy cabin, since both are different environments and you need a different training and abilities. Also ramp personnel. I am sure you could check your customers comments on service and make a very good picture on how things are going. Also mistakes on the cockpit or failing to do some security stuff or procedures could be implemented without pressuring crews, and no penalties coming from that, only retraining and some recommendations, on those special "cases" make a follow up and ensure some checks so big blunders or security issues could be avoided. In my line of work such training, screening and testing occurs and nobody hides it because it shows on customer satisfaction, there are no punishment, in fact troubles and procedure hiccups are encouraged and a lot of things have changed because of that honesty, the result, we have th highest customer satisfaction worldwide by far.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
Getting stressed out will ground a pilot?

No, because you don't know how bad it is or if the said stress is a danger, you need to open channels so that people who are not ok (for example lost a close dear one, or having a similar trouble) they can have avenues to let out that or ask for 72 to 144 hours of leave, to deal with that. Of course if said employee ask for a lot of those Freebies, there must be a screening and a check to see what is going on, you would be surprised on how a lot of people are forthcoming when they know they are going to be understood and helped.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
Wouldn't that just increase stress or encourage people to hide their stress/burnout.

No if you handle it properly.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
Improving quality of life for pilots in general will help much more than any screening process that just catches countless pilots who would never crash their planes intentionally just because they are stressed out.

Well some stressed out Pilot crashed an aircraft, 99.999% will never do that, and maybe even people who have wonderful lives and money (apparently), get to do such things, so quality of life depends 100% on your attitude and outlook of life. But you need a way to let them know that if they get in an ugly situation emotionally, there are ways to deal with it, instead of committing suicide.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
You'll have a mountain of false positives and people evading the screen to protect their career.

That is your way of seeing things, in fact people who work very hard in hiding their short comings are quite frankly the ones with very sad an miserable lives. People who believe in change and that admitting they need help or support, are the ones who make the most out alf a bad situation.

Quoting tomlee (Reply 157):
If you just make a program to reduce stress in general you'd achieve better results.

Thats is the main objetive, to make work a safe place, a nice place to be, and to have coworkers you deem as friends.

TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 150):
That some people use this quote as a starting point for the discussion of German door lock mechanisms is beyond bizarre, IMHO.

And that this culminates in somebody who has apparently never set foot in a German private residence demanding "proof" of how bathroom door lock in Germany look from other posters is surreal.

God bless you.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 156):

I really think some diatribes here about keys locks and construction codes, should go into de NON av forum and I am not joking.

I went there with the last diversion and was overruled by a forum moderator. I respect their position of authority and therefore just dropped it (and out of the thread). Came in today to see what was new and, of course, more pedantic sideshows.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Mastropiero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:30 am

Quoting tomlee (Reply 155):
Technically speaking it has already been done (the warnings, and the auto restriction),
http://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldw...c-collision-avoidance-system-t2cas
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ipp/cent....html

Thank you, tomlee. However, as far as I can understand these systems are designed to alert the crew and recommend avoudance manoeuvres when it is about to hit the fan. I was thinking more along the lines of the autopilot not accepting an altitude setting of, say, 3000 ft if the aircraft is flying above a mountainous area where such altitude input would result in the aircraft crashing. Kind of what happens in any informatic program when you have to enter a value into a box and that value is out of range or is an erroneous one. The program refuses/is unable to accept that value.

I understand that it would need much fine tuning (ie on approach there can be a reason for flying below the highest altitude peak around, or such). I also understand that it doesn't prevent the pilot from hand flying into the ground.

But on a case like this, if the pilot's input is inconsistent with the flight plan and puts the aircraft in a dangerous situation, could it be beneficial to increase the plane's capacity to negate such inputs, just as would an Airbus not go beyond x degrees of bank no matter how much side input the pilot would command?
 
by738
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:12 pm

Wonder what he would have done if Captain had gone to toilet at a different phase of flight and not necessarily over the Alps?
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:00 pm

The discussion of this flight disaster has taken a turn, perhaps for the better, of discussion of dealing with the mental state of pilots and how to reduce the risks of putting themselves and others in danger.
I believe a year or 2 ago, we saw a JetBlue pilot have a psychotic episode in flight, fortunately he didn't decide to crash the plane, but did run through the cabin saying weird things. Recently he filed a civil lawsuit vesus JetBlue for not preventing him from flying that day, even though there were observable signs including allegedly not at a pre-flight briefing.
We have seen pilots, especially for commuter/feeder airlines under stress have to report from across the country for a flight, seeing pay go down, losing pensions or other benefits that are not good for their mental state.
A model for reducing mental health risks should be how airlines, pilots, flight crews, and their unions have dealt with improving CRM as well as dealing humanly with alcohol and drug problems. We need to find ways to improve pre-flight CRM to keep out some pilots or crew who are not in the proper mental state to do their jobs safely. To me a real discussion by those in the industry, government regulators, mental and health care professionals, workers unions, needs to take place to reduce the risks and improve safety.
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:09 pm

There is a new theory doing the rounds. The plane may have been 'hacked'?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

  

How likely is that?
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:58 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 166):

source is Daily Mail. Worse even than Bild am Sonntag.  
The story would involve a patent owned by Boeing. And hacking of the CVR, FDR, the cockpit door and the FO's brain and ears.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 164):
Wonder what he would have done if Captain had gone to toilet at a different phase of flight and not necessarily over the Alps?

Its a tragedy as it is, I don't want even to think about "alternate scenarios". Thanks.   

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 165):
We have seen pilots, especially for commuter/feeder airlines under stress have to report from across the country for a flight, seeing pay go down, losing pensions or other benefits that are not good for their mental state.
A model for reducing mental health risks should be how airlines, pilots, flight crews, and their unions have dealt with improving CRM as well as dealing humanly with alcohol and drug problems. We need to find ways to improve pre-flight CRM to keep out some pilots or crew who are not in the proper mental state to do their jobs safely. To me a real discussion by those in the industry, government regulators, mental and health care professionals, workers unions, needs to take place to reduce the risks and improve safety.



Amen to this. I really hope companies in all sensitive and dangerous situations take precautions on their employees.

TRB
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NAV30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:07 am

Apparently the guy very possibly had a detached retina.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...france-crash-idUSL6N0WV0HL20150329

Had one myself, way back. Basically the whole 'screen' at the back of the eye begins 'breaking away' and you increasingly lose vision 'from the outside in.' The surgeon managed to stop the problem spreading, but I lost a bit of peripheral vision. And, as it happens, I was specifically advised not to go on flying the gliders and light aeroplanes I'd been enjoying myself in up to that time, because the problem could arise again (and rapidly get worse) at any time..

Looks to me that that could well have been what drove the co-pilot to suicide - it would certainly have ended his professional career.

Even if so, though, there's still no excuse for him taking so many people with him..........

[Edited 2015-04-19 00:09:55]
 
aloges
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:54 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 169):
Apparently the guy very possibly had a detached retina.

First of all, that is from 29 March and has already been quoted:

Quoting tomlee (Reply 96):
"The co-pilot suspected of crashing a passenger jet in the Alps may have been suffering from a detached retina but investigators are unsure whether his vision problems had physical or psychological causes, a German newspaper said on Sunday." http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...france-crash-idUSL6N0WV0HL20150329

Second, it isn't more reliable now than it was three weeks ago:

Quoting aloges (Reply 97):
Before anyone jumps on this: they are referring to "Bild am Sonntag", which is essentially the same as reporting what was muttered in their sleep by someone's grand-niece's second cousin who once slept with the man who used to live across the street from the pilot's prom date's grandmother.

"BILD" will make up a story if they think it will sell and they will put words into people's mouths if they think it "helps".
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
SoJo
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 182)
the vision problem Lubitz was having was due to him having a detached retina.

As it happens I've had one of those, thankfully only in one eye. Once you've got one, the surgeons can only practise 'damage limitation' - basically 'stabilising' the retina by putting a band round the eye so that the retina stays in place. But that entails some 'cost' in that the affected eyeball ends up a bit 'longer,' thus causing it to be a bit short-sighted; and you also lose some 'field of vision' in the affected eye.

No problem for me - just gave me an excuse for playing even worse cricket than usual! But my guess is that one short-sighted (and slightly distorted) eye might well end the flying career of a commercial airline pilot? Perhaps that's what happened, the guy was in despair?


Hey NAV30. Guess you don't remember the above from part 13 reply 185. Have a nice day.
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!
 
NAV30
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Sun Apr 19, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting SoJo (Reply 171):
Hey NAV30. Guess you don't remember the above from part 13 reply 185.

Sorry mate, no, must have missed it. But we appear to know the 'root cause' of the accident. We'll probably never know whether it was deliberate suicide or, alternatively, the First Officer getting the landing wrong because of his affected vision.

Either way it's a mess. He really should have packed in flying airliners the moment he knew about the problem. As we both know now, though a detached retina is quite a 'big blow,' it's not the end of the world - or even the end of your working life........unless you make it so..........
 
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seahawk
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Fri May 01, 2015 6:57 am

https://de.nachrichten.yahoo.com/germanwings-copilot-auch-von-us-beh%C3%B6rde-kontrolliert-151842534--finance.html

Seems like his mental state was checked by the FAA not by the LBA. His licence was given to him by the FAA in full knowledge of the depressive episode.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 9:23 am

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32604552

Analysis now shows that Lubitz tested a rapid descent on the outbound DUS-BCN flight for one minute.

BEA interim report expected later today.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 174):
Analysis now shows that Lubitz tested a rapid descent on the outbound DUS-BCN flight for one minute.

Wow...


The report is on the website (www.bea.aero), under "Vol 4U9525".


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ltbewr
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:00 am

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 174):

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32604552

Analysis now shows that Lubitz tested a rapid descent on the outbound DUS-BCN flight for one minute.

BEA interim report expected later today.

Perhaps the report will give further details on these allegations. Was the Captain in the cockpit in the earlier 'test' ? Was it really a test or did Lubitz really intend to crash in the earlier period ? Did the Captain consider after the alleged earlier flight event if knew about it of grounding Lubitz for improper procedures if he knew of it ?
This does bring up serious consideration of downloading of all fight data after a flight to be reviewed by computer programs to see if any serious problems. Along with cockpit video with downloads after flights, such info could be valuable in investigations of crashes/incidents to see if improper procedures in place or improper behavior. Of course no pilot or their unions want such monitoring for their reasons, but it is becoming more necessary with the risks involved to prevent future risks. Perhaps too we need more ability to be able to remove pilots at risk such as this one was.
 
Pihero
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:03 am

The BEA Preliminary Report
has now been published.
It brings quite a lot of confirmation on the door systems, the FCU manipulations and also the fact that the FO had a kind of *dry run* on the previous sector.

For a pilot with experience on the A320, the way the FCU was manipulated many times is not really indicative of deliberate, continuous implementation of his suicidal instiincts.
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 176):
Was the Captain in the cockpit in the earlier 'test' ? Was it really a test or did Lubitz really intend to crash in the earlier period ?

apparently he was alone but opened the door when the captain requested access, contrary to the return flight.
 
 
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anfromme
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:21 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 176):
Perhaps the report will give further details on these allegations. Was the Captain in the cockpit in the earlier 'test' ?

No.
The preliminary report goes something like this:

7:19:59am - Pilot leaves cockpit.
Half a minute later, ATC in Bordeaux takes over who ask the co-pilot to go down to 35,000ft (10,668m). Co-pilot confirms.
7:20:32am - Plane goes into the requested descent
7:20:50am - Programmed altitude changed to 100ft (30m) for 3 seconds. Then goes up to 49,000ft (14,935m), then finally to 35,000ft.
7:21:10am - ATC requests descent to 21,000ft (6,401m). For six seconds, this is the programmed altitude.
7:22:27am - Programmed altitude from now on is 100ft for most of the time. Changed multiple times, eventually modified to 25,000ft (7,620m).
7:24:15am - Door buzzer audible, indicating pilot requesting to be let back into cockpit.
7:24:29am - Door opens, pilot returns to cockpit.

That does read like an exact dry-run; makes you wonder why the co-pilot didn't carry out the full descent then and waited until the return flight to bring the plane down. Might have been a completely random impulse - although we'll never know.
42
 
AIRWALK
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:23 am

This is the information from the report regarding the previous flight with the descent. The captain was not in the flight deck at that time.




- 7 h 19 min 59, noises like those of the cockpit door opening then closing were recorded and corresponded to when the Captain left the cockpit; the aeroplane was then at cruise speed at flight level FL370 (37,000 ft); ˆ

- at 7 h 20 min 29, the flight was transferred to the Bordeaux en-route control centre and the crew was instructed to descend to flight level FL350 (35,000 ft), an instruction read back by the co-pilot; ˆ

- at 7 h 20 min 32, the aircraft was put into a descent to flight level FL350 , selected a few seconds earlier;

- ˆ at 7 h 20 min 50, the selected altitude decreased to 100 ft for three seconds and then increased to the maximum value of 49,000 ft and stabilized again at 35,000 ft;

- ˆ at 7 h 21 min 10, the Bordeaux control centre gave the crew the instruction to continue the descent to flight level FL210; ˆ

- at 7 h 21 min 16, the selected altitude was 21,000 ft;
ˆ
- from 7 h 22 min 27, the selected altitude was 100 feet most of the time and changed several times until it stabilized at 25,000 ft at 7 h 24 min 13; ˆ

- at 7 h 24 min 15, the buzzer to request access to the cockpit was recorded;

- ˆ at 7 h 24 min 29 noises like those of the unlocking of the cockpit door then its opening was recorded and corresponded to the Captain’s return to the cockpit.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:26 am

To make it clear...

Can you select an altitude (which is then broadcasted to ATC by ADS-B), but it still does not affect the flight path? So you "detach" the altitude selection from the autopilot, and so the plane doesn't know what altitude was requested - and the Airbus happily flies straight and stable?


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Tchocky
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:27 am

Not sure about the system in Bordeaux, but in my centre we can read the selected altitude from the radar label. If this had been changed multiple times I can't imagine this going unnoticed - if ATC Bordeaux have the facility.
 
CXfirst
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:32 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 180):
That does read like an exact dry-run; makes you wonder why the co-pilot didn't carry out the full descent then and waited until the return flight to bring the plane down. Might have been a completely random impulse - although we'll never know.

I wonder about this as well. I'm assuming this descent was conducted for the approach, so maybe he didn't want to do it over water, where the autopilot might have leveled off at 100ft. But, at the same time, he would have had to rely on the captain leaving the cockpit again on the return. Seeing as the flight wasn't that long, having the captain leave before approach on the outward journey (presumably to use the lavatory), there would be a good chance he wouldn't leave during the return, unless it was a captain that frequently left his seat.

Although, I guess if it didn't happen that day, it could have just as easily been done on any of the next flights.

-CXfirst
 
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Quantos
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 11:49 am

Hesitation, possibly? In the time the plane takes to descend from its current altitude to the one requested by ATC, a few minutes go by, regardless of what the selected altitude actually is. He could easily have had a change of heart before reaching the requested, and simply adjusted the selected altitude to what ATC Bordeaux requested. Considering the gravity of the act, hesitation and rehearsals wouldn't appear as abnormal. I must say that I am also very curious to know if ATC knew that the selected altitude was incorrect for some time. Is there a delay from the time the altitude is selected to the time it is transmitted to ATC (assuming they have the capability of course)?
Quantos,

I maintain the Airbus A220 (formerly Bombardier C Series) Aircraft Status sheet: https://goo.gl/HZshto
Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
Tchocky
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 185):
Is there a delay from the time the altitude is selected to the time it is transmitted to ATC (assuming they have the capability of course)?

It would update at the same rate the radar display does, I imagine. Usually around 3-5 seconds. Sometimes the screen will update as the PF is turning the knob to a new level so you'll see "FL324" or whatever the position is at the moment of transmisison.

If he was quick it might have gone completely unnoticed.
 
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InsideMan
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 12:58 pm

Quoting Tchocky (Reply 186):
If he was quick it might have gone completely unnoticed.

here's an overview, from the report:

 
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Classa64
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 1:15 pm

From the BEA preliminary report...

"An input on the right sidestick was recorded for about 30 seconds on the FDR 1
min 33 s before the impact, not enough to disengage the autopilot."


Maybe he had second thoughts? Or a short bought of reality seeped in to what he was doing. Sad either way for everyone.
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
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Quantos
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting InsideMan (Reply 187):
here's an overview, from the report:

So it was set to 100ft for almost a minute continuous. Assuming that ATC did have the requirements to view the selected altitude, they should have seen that it was set to 100ft. Of course, I guess that there is no telling what happens if they do notice it. Would they just assume that it is a mistake from the pilot, but not warn him about it until the plane is actually below its assigned altitude (which never occurs in the flight reported above)?
Quantos,

I maintain the Airbus A220 (formerly Bombardier C Series) Aircraft Status sheet: https://goo.gl/HZshto
Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
Tchocky
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 1:52 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 189):
Of course, I guess that there is no telling what happens if they do notice it. Would they just assume that it is a mistake from the pilot, but not warn him about it until the plane is actually below its assigned altitude (which never occurs in the flight reported above)?

I can't speak for French ATC but on our system the cleared flight level turns yellow to indicate a discrepancy, if the selected level doesn't matched the cleared level after ten or so seconds. That gets acted upon quite quickly and it's a very handy tool to clear up errors.

If FL001 was selected for over a minute I guarantee it would have been mentioned to the pilot. I can only conclude that the French ATCO didn't have the facility to see the selected altitude - or maybe it was available but there was no indication of a discrepancy.

In my experience a lot of pilots don't know that we can see the downlinked IAS and selected altitude. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the captain re-entered the cockpit to hear a discussion between Lubitz and ATC about why he had selected FL001.

Ach.
 
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Quantos
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting Tchocky (Reply 190):
I can't speak for French ATC but on our system the cleared flight level turns yellow to indicate a discrepancy, if the selected level doesn't matched the cleared level after ten or so seconds. That gets acted upon quite quickly and it's a very handy tool to clear up errors.

If FL001 was selected for over a minute I guarantee it would have been mentioned to the pilot. I can only conclude that the French ATCO didn't have the facility to see the selected altitude - or maybe it was available but there was no indication of a discrepancy.

In my experience a lot of pilots don't know that we can see the downlinked IAS and selected altitude. I can't help but wonder what would have happened if the captain re-entered the cockpit to hear a discussion between Lubitz and ATC about why he had selected FL001.

Ach.

Thanks, very interesting. Based on that it does seem likely that the ATC simply didn't see that a discrepancy existed (either due to lack of information or otherwise). I'd also say that Lubitz either didn't know this system existed (and got "lucky"), or specifically knew that the ATC in this center did not have these capabilities. Alternatively, perhaps he did not know whether ATC had these capabilities and was actually probing ATC's reaction by changing the selected altitude numerous times and in direct conflict with his assigned altitude.
Quantos,

I maintain the Airbus A220 (formerly Bombardier C Series) Aircraft Status sheet: https://goo.gl/HZshto
Feel free to comment on the sheet with any improvement suggestions and data update requests! Thanks to Paolo92 for his advice!
 
peterjohns
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 3:48 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 191):

Hello everybody
I can confirm on what Tchocky writes about the Mode "S" readouts. Our german system works in a similar way.
If there is a discrepancy of even 100ft from the cleared FL (electronically entered FL in the ATC system) to the one selected on the FCU there is a visual warning - similar to a conflict alert.
Happens all the time- e.g. if someone selects 199 instead of 200...
There are cases every now and then- where a selcted altitude readout will jump around the scale- or go blank- for whatever reasons...?? So for it to show 350- 350- 001- 245- 399- 350-350 is not so uncommon as suspected. Not often - and usually in small aircraft (VFR) but it does occur. If an airliner would do that several times while changing FL´s - I might think it is a technical reason- rather than a pilot playing on the knobs- although thinking about it, the latter is not so uncommon either...
Anyhow- ATC can see it- and will see it- at least in most ATC facilaties I know of.
Also interesting for you to know- the selected FL in the FCU does NOT imply the a/c is actually descending/clb to that Level. It could still fly straight and Level and will only leave it when the LVL select knob is pulled.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Wed May 06, 2015 9:19 pm

Quoting Quantos (Reply 185):
Hesitation, possibly?

Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. I don't know that it was a "practice" run. Folks who slit their wrists or stab themselves often leave what are called "hestation marks" on the body, where they try lightly a few times before going through with it. That's one reason that determined folks use a gun. I think he just as easily could have done this on the previous trip, but for whatever reason didn't go through with it.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu May 07, 2015 8:04 am

Quoting anfromme (Reply 180):
That does read like an exact dry-run; makes you wonder why the co-pilot didn't carry out the full descent then and waited until the return flight to bring the plane down.

A 'dry-run'... Disgusting if true but we will never know what was going through the mind of that disturbed individual.

Quoting Classa64 (Reply 188):
Maybe he had second thoughts? Or a short bought of reality seeped in to what he was doing. Sad either way for everyone.

It's a shame that he didn't have enough of a second thought before the actual suicide.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 193):
Quoting Quantos (Reply 185):Hesitation, possibly? Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. I don't know that it was a "practice" run. Folks who slit their wrists or stab themselves often leave what are called "hestation marks" on the body, where they try lightly a few times before going through with it. That's one reason that determined folks use a gun. I think he just as easily could have done this on the previous trip, but for whatever reason didn't go through with it.

Practice run or hesitation, the rest is history...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
CXfirst
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu May 07, 2015 9:25 am

Quoting Tchocky (Reply 190):
If FL001 was selected for over a minute I guarantee it would have been mentioned to the pilot. I can only conclude that the French ATCO didn't have the facility to see the selected altitude - or maybe it was available but there was no indication of a discrepancy.

With the altitude selection jumping so wildly, and being set to FL001 for so long, would ATC simply think it was a technical error or glitch? Or even think the pilot is just playing around (very unlikely he would pass assigned altitude, so as long as he levels off correctly, no real perceived danger).

I would assume the system would be set up for miscommunication or correction of small errors, say someone setting FL350 instead of FL370 (miscommunication), or FL349 instead of FL350 (small error that pilot might not have noticed). FL001 isn't pilot error or miscommunication.

-CXfirst
 
Tchocky
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu May 07, 2015 12:53 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 195):
With the altitude selection jumping so wildly, and being set to FL001 for so long, would ATC simply think it was a technical error or glitch? Or even think the pilot is just playing around (very unlikely he would pass assigned altitude, so as long as he levels off correctly, no real perceived danger).

Yeah it would look like a tech issue, which would be even more of a reason to mention it to the flight crew.

For anyone interested here's a quick overview of Mode S DAP from Skybrary - http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Use_of_Selected_Altitude_by_ATC
 
CXfirst
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu May 07, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting Tchocky (Reply 196):
Yeah it would look like a tech issue, which would be even more of a reason to mention it to the flight crew.

I guess that is something investigators could figure out easily if they want to (perhaps they already have). All they'd have to do is listen to ATC recordings and/or ask the controller on duty if he saw the erratic behaviour and if he did anything about it.

I don't work in ATC, so can someone here that is an enroute or approach controller answer if it is common to see odd altitude selections, as if a pilot is playing with the selector?

-CXfirst
 
peterjohns
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RE: Germanwings A320 Crashed Enroute BCN-DUS - Part 15

Thu May 07, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 197):

If you check my reply 192 - I already did just that!

It is quite common for us to see irratic selected altitude (SFL) readings. In fact - I just had two today!! One was on a Citation Excel, the other one on a jetstream 31. It is so common, that I actually watch it , but seldom inform the pilots about it, as it can have several causes. Also it is mostly difficult to explain what I want from the pilots- as they can´t do anything anyway. Mostly they don´t know what I am talking about if I tell them their SFL display shows the wrong figures...!!!
They answer: " Cleared Level is 150 !?" "yes, but it shows xxx" - "??" and then "Confirm our cleared Level is FL150?"
" Afirm"
The same goes for Mode "S" Flight ID readouts, that are often wrong. As far as I know, the Airbus 380 can´t even change them in flight!! I tried it once and had a lengthy discussion with the outcome that the crew was quite confused...

Back to Topic: The Level readouts of the FCU are a great thing to have- they make life sooo much easier-
but they won´t and didn´t change anything with the outcome of this crash. I don´t envy the colleagues that had to watch the plane descending into the ground. It is difficult to explain- but it is like the train-driver having someone jump in front of your train. It´s not your fault and you couldn´t by any means prevent it- but it perhaps will have great effect on your future life.
One can only wonder what made this guy do that in this manner. Utterly terrible.

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