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EK413
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Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:49 am

Hi A.netter's,

Time to kick off Australian Aviation Part 118 as the previous discussion was 1 shy from hitting 200 response's & slow to load for users so please continue the conversation here...

Here's a short summary and link of what was discussed in Australian Aviation Part 117...

Australian Aviation Thread Part 117 (by allrite Mar 11 2015 in Civil Aviation)

* Interview with Tony Fernandes where he complains about airport charges in Australia, discusses the Indonesian AirAsia accident and the AirAsiaX flight delay to Bali, & says they need the second flight to Sydney
* AirAsiaX under fire for its slow refund for the cancelled Adelaide service.
* QF A330 fleet utilisation on the Domestic and Internation network
* Greens propose Sydney airport shutdown and move it to, well they don't know!
* Brisbane named best airport in Australia #20, Sydney #21 and best staff in the Australia-Pacific Region
* QF VH-OJA "City of Canberra" delivered to her final resting place at WOL
* "Queen of the Skies" QF B747-438ER VH-OEH performs the QF Grand Prix flyover
* Rex plane crew mistook coal loader, stockpiles for runway link provided www.theherald.com.au/story/2943530/r...ook-coal-loader-for-runway/?cs=305
* Qantas present an ambitious time-frame of just four months to seal a deal with its long-haul pilots for a new four-year wage agreement that will include pay and conditions for those flying Boeing 787-9 Dreamliner aircraft.
* Air Asia advertise fares of $78 for MEL-DPS direct for travel to end of June.
* VA in the process of reducing their MEL-DPS frequency from 10 to 7 weekly
* On going discussions regarding the DPS market and flood of capacity
* Tiger Air announce that they will reduce their carry on allowance from a free 10kg down to 7kg to match the change Jetstar made last year.
* QF group bans lithium ion batteries as cargo http://australianaviation.com.au/201...ke-lithium-ion-batteries-as-cargo/
* QF 7/8 will operate daily to DFW between 8th December 2015 and 19th January 2016
* QF 127/128 (SYD to HKG ) will be upgraded to A388 5 days a week (Monday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday) from 10th December 2015 to 20th January 2016 then will operate daily till 16th February 2016.
* QF 111/112 (PER to AKL) will continue to operate next summer. From 30th October 2015 to 6th December 2015 QF 111/112 will operate on a weekly basis.
* Discussions surrounding EKs load factors across the Tasman
* Emirates to reduce Perth from thrice daily to double daily from 06JUL15 with EK422/423 to be suspended whilst EK424/425 to be upgauged from a 77L to 77W aircraft.
* Emirates is still on track to commence A380 services to Perth on 01MAY15.
* QF's application for a capacity sharing agreement with China Eastern rejected by the ACCC due to the concentration of services
* An end to QF Link Dash 8 ops at PER with all routes to be flown by either 717 or F100.
* Wake of the Germanwings airlines change their flight deck procedures to mandate at least 2 people in the cockpit at any one time
* Qantas assures passengers it places high priority on mental health http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...ealth/story-fnizu68q-1227281490347
* QF apply special decal on B747 to commemorate 100 Years Gallipoli http://instagram.com/p/0xBsAlq-iB/
* Four Seasons Journies around the world tour, 16 March thru 8 April 2015.
* JQ dropping their AVV route due to on going losses.
* Virgin Australia 737-800 VH-YFH operates the inaugural Alice Springs flight
* 2 people in the cockpit at all times policy implemented in Australia immediately.
* Qantas Group statement on cockpit access: http://t.co/o0xoQQXUzI
* Rex commence Saab 340 services from Cairns to Bamaga & also announce that it will commence services from Cairns to Mount Isa from 25 May 2015.
* MH from 22nd of April 2015 will reduce its Kuala Lumpur - Darwin flights from four to three times weekly. All services will continue to be operated by the airline's fleet of 737-800s
* KE from 2nd of April 2015 Korean Airlines will begin operating its new A330-300s on the Seoul - Brisbane and Sydney routes. The new aircraft come equipped with the airline's new Prestige Suites in Business Class
* Jetstar with a number of new routes / route resumptions: Cairns - Denpasar / Bali commencing Sunday 29 March 2015, Gold Coast - Perth sommencing Sunday 29 March 2015, Gold Coast - Nadi (Fiji) Tuesday 31 March 2015 (Fiji Airways / Air Pacific previously operated this route) & Melbourne - Wellington commenced Monday 30 March 2015
* Evil rumour circulating among the agent trade about HA's BNE flights.
* Once again the opening of the new Virgin domestic terminal has been put back. John Borghetti is reported to be "frustrated"
* QF94 (LAX-MEL) operated by a 744 due to an A380 going tech in LHR.
* QF VH-OQG requires an unscheduled engine change in LHR causeing it to be on the ground in LHR for 2 days.
* CZ commence 788 flights and also announce that from 16th July 2015 they will go from 3 weekly services to 4 per week. http://australianaviation.com.au/201...h-and-plans-frequency-boost-to-wa/
* Jetstar Japan getting a new Chairman and CEO after Miyuki Suzuki was poached by a larger multi-national.
* 2nd of April marks the 2 year anniversary of the QF/EK alliance
* Alliance Airlines (QQ) 13 April 2015 will begin offering the public seats on their closed charter services from Brisbane to Emerald. There will be three weekly flights on offer, Monday, Thursday and Friday and flights will be priced from $140 each way.
* Virgin Australia begin their first of its A330-200 services to Nadi from Sydney, with VH-XFJ having the honours

Enjoy the Journey!

EK413

[Edited 2015-04-03 21:35:32]
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allrite
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:06 am

Thanks EK413. Very comprehensive summary!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 4:43 am

Quoting allrite (Reply 1):
Thanks EK413. Very comprehensive summary!

Thankyou allrite  

EK413
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting EK413 (Thread starter):

Excellent summary

On other matters VIPA (Virgin Independent Pilots Association) suggests new rule for 2 in cockpit suggests a lack of trust.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...lack-of-trust-20150402-1mdj39.html
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:03 am

Is the QQ BNE-Emerald F70 being sold to the public year round?
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:53 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 3):
On other matters VIPA (Virgin Independent Pilots Association) suggests new rule for 2 in cockpit suggests a lack of trust.

Reagan said it best when he said "trust but verify". Having 2 in the cockpit at all times is sensible and logical so why the VIPA, and to a lesser extent the QF Pilots, would come out against this and not pro-actively embrace it is beyond me. Sure all of the health issues are important but, and I hate to say it, yes this does signal a lack of trust in pilots because the safety of the travelling public, in Germanwings & Silkair & Egyptair, has been compromised. So unless there is a better way of ensuring this can't happen again, this is the regulatory response virtually worldwide.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:09 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):

Is the QQ BNE-Emerald F70 being sold to the public year round?

I would like to know this as well. I need to add that type to my flyer's log! Hopefully someone will know the answer.

Another question: the ex-TAA Viscount that has been turned into accommodation in Miles, Queensland... Anyone stayed in it, or seen it? I think I will do a holiday to the Darling Downs just to stay in it!

Cheers,
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:34 pm

- Hong Kong Airlines is reportedly considering operating "private charters" to Australia according to the following article - http://www.ejinsight.com/20150402-ho...airlines-boosts-kagoshima-service/. A CAPA article (paywall unfortunately) also suggests that the carrier is hoping to enter the Australian market by the end of 2015 and that flights to Cairns or the Gold Coast are under consideration (presumably RPT as I think these ports are excempt from capacity restrictions??)

- According to the Wall Street Journal, ANA is still in discussion about possible services to Australia, amongst other countries - http://www.wsj.com/articles/anas-new...ts-growth-outside-japan-1427734808

- XiamenAir is still planning to launch services to Australia this year, thanks in part due to the arrival of its new 787 aircraft. The carrier is reportedly aiming for an October start - http://centreforaviation.com/news/xi...-2015-north-america-in-2016-430538. Previous news articles have pointed to Sydney as the first destination.

[Edited 2015-04-05 05:53:32]
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sun Apr 05, 2015 12:41 pm

As long as the FIFO route is operating, tickets will be sold, subject to availability.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:50 am

A few diversions to BNE due to fog in SYD this morning.

QF8, QF12, UA839 and UA863 to name a few.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting thai77w (Reply 9):
A few diversions to BNE due to fog in SYD this morning.

QF8, QF12, UA839 and UA863 to name a few.

I'm glad for the pax that one of the UA birds didn't end up in CBR this time  
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 7):
A CAPA article (paywall unfortunately) also suggests that the carrier is hoping to enter the Australian market by the end of 2015 and that flights to Cairns or the Gold Coast are under consideration (presumably RPT as I think these ports are excempt from capacity restrictions??)

Correct. Both of those ports could have flights operate to them without extending the existing bilateral.

Quoting QF175 (Reply 7):
- According to the Wall Street Journal, ANA is still in discussion about possible services to Australia, amongst other countries - http://www.wsj.com/articles/anas-new...34808

Given the increase, over the past 2 to 3 years, of QF and JQ capacity and especially now with QF bringing HND online along with BNE-NRT, it would surprise me if ANA decided to enter. I'd say there would be better returns elsewhere.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 10):
I'm glad for the pax that one of the UA birds didn't end up in CBR this time  

Yeah, but I would've loved it for photography, lol!
Could do with a couple of exotic birds at Canberra today!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:25 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 3):

Your welcome  
Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):
Quoting bunumuring (Reply 6):

Alliance Airlines (QQ) operates a number of weekly flights from Brisbane to Emerald on behalf of mining companies with their Fokker 70 aircraft.

From 13 April 2015 the airline will begin offering seats on these flights to the general public, schedule as follows:

BNE/EMD 0535/0655 QQ4060 1 F70
BNE/EMD 1605/1730 QQ4066 45 F70

EMD/BNE 0725/0845 QQ4061 1 F70
EMD/BNE 1800/1920 QQ4067 4 F70
EMD/BNE 1810/1930 QQ4067 5 F70

Flights are priced from $140 each way.

http://www.allianceairlines.com.au/t...h-us/timetable
http://m.cqnews.com.au/news/more-fli...erald/2592960/

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 13):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 4):Quoting bunumuring (Reply 6):
Alliance Airlines (QQ) operates a number of weekly flights from Brisbane to Emerald on behalf of mining companies with their Fokker 70 aircraft.

From 13 April 2015 the airline will begin offering seats on these flights to the general public, schedule as follows:

BNE/EMD 0535/0655 QQ4060 1 F70
BNE/EMD 1605/1730 QQ4066 45 F70

EMD/BNE 0725/0845 QQ4061 1 F70
EMD/BNE 1800/1920 QQ4067 4 F70
EMD/BNE 1810/1930 QQ4067 5 F70

Flights are priced from $140 each way.

http://www.allianceairlines.com.au/t...h-us/timetable
http://m.cqnews.com.au/news/more-fli...2960/

Yes but it doesn't really answer the original question, are these public sales year round or during a certain time period?

Quoting thai77w (Reply 8):
As long as the FIFO route is operating, tickets will be sold, subject to availability.

Guess this is the closest answer to the question
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:18 am

As it is ther is no current plans for the route to close, if anything Alliance are optimistic enough that it may able to support enough traffic to go daily and/or stand alone services on the current 3 x weekly service.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:57 pm

Anyone got an update on Solomon Airlines' Sydney flights? Or on their plans to replace their elderly A320 when it comes off lease at the end of the year? I read in Australian Aviation magazine that the airline may end up with two A320s or even A319s but Solomons will have to make a move soon if it is true that the existing A320 finishes flying with them by the end of the year.
I'm guessing too that Solomons is the 'new international airline' beginning operations to Sydney that was mentioned in a newspaper report last week. My heart started beating a little faster when I read it, as I jumped to the idea that maybe Turkish, Alitalia or Qatar might've finally sorted themselves out for Sydney, lol! Of course Alitalia is the least likely, but they have mentioned it themselves... Fingers crossed!
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 16):

Interesting development in the New Zealand Aviation Threads on this topic. PH is now looking at re-starting international flights to New Zealand with charter flights starting in June and scheduled flights from November with a leased Solomon Airlines A319 or A320. Next year PH will launch its own branded Polynesian flights with its own fleet.

Interesting thing with this is that VA operate flights on behalf of the Samoan Government, with the Government owning half of the operations. What is happening with the VA services? Is PH launching in competition?

New Zealand Aviation Thread 156 (by American 767 Apr 2 2015 in Civil Aviation) reply #14 onwards
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:28 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 16):
Anyone got an update on Solomon Airlines' Sydney flights? Or on their plans to replace their elderly A320 when it comes off lease at the end of the year? I read in Australian Aviation magazine that the airline may end up with two A320s or even A319s but Solomons will have to make a move soon if it is true that the existing A320 finishes flying with them by the end of the year.
I'm guessing too that Solomons is the 'new international airline' beginning operations to Sydney that was mentioned in a newspaper report last week. My heart started beating a little faster when I read it, as I jumped to the idea that maybe Turkish, Alitalia or Qatar might've finally sorted themselves out for Sydney, lol! Of course Alitalia is the least likely, but they have mentioned it themselves... Fingers crossed!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Haven't heard anything but the passenger numbers to BNE are often terrible (though I assume like PX they get a lot of freight), so its surprising they are launching SYD. They seem to have some difficulty with H4-BUS (their A320) and its not uncommon to see them chartering an Nauru a/c to fly for whatever reason. I don't know the capacity of A319's freight-wise but it would definitely be a better fit passenger-number wise (and would be nice to see A319's in Australia! Apart from the Antarctic one). Don't know how they would use two aircraft, unless they plan on picking up some charter work (like Nauru Airlines does quite successfully) but they don't have an Australian AOC so it would be harder and can't imagine market is strong for charter in the Solomons.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:01 am

[quote=bunumuring,reply=16]Turkish, Alitalia or Qatar might've finally sorted themselves out for Sydney, lol! Of course Alitalia is the least likely, but they have mentioned it themselves... Fingers crossed!
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Will definitely be TK and if Qatar can get the timings right they will be in Sydney to. Alitalia, I very much doubt it.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:25 am

An article in the SMH today discussing the impacts on QF of increased international competition and whether QF could still be called upon in the future in the event that Australians needed to be repatriated/evacuated in the event of an overseas incident:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviat...eign-airlines-20150406-1m74tb.html

One of the historical arguments (one of the less stronger points) made for shielding QF from increased levels of competition has been the role QF can play/has played in evacuating Australians from disaster zones overseas. The article mentions two notable examples in 1) Cycle Tracy and 2) Evacuation of Australians from Egypt.
With QF International "shrinking" (in terms of destinations) over the last 10 years, can we still expect QF (as the national carrier ) and will QF have the ability to carry out such missions in the future?

One thing which I was hoping to get clarified was in the 2 examples noted above, were the QF services "chartered" by the Government and therefore QF was reimbursed for the costs or did QF perform the flights as a goodwill gesture? Either way, I think QF would have had to make adjustments in their normal schedule to facilitate the flights.

Some will argue that the Australian government could easily get another airline to do the same role, BUT:

1) Would the other airlines (foreign) only operate the charter if they had spare aircraft (i.e. they would not cancel their existing scheduled services to facilitate the schedule)?
2) Would the other airline give preference to nationals of their own country?

I think John Borghetti a while back suggested that VA could easily fill the same role as QF if needed, but given the much smaller fleet of VA (77W's and A332's - their only suitable aircraft), one would question if VA could ever respond as effectively as QF could.

Keen to hear everyone's thoughts.
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747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):
With QF International "shrinking" (in terms of destinations) over the last 10 years, can we still expect QF (as the national carrier ) and will QF have the ability to carry out such missions in the future?

The argument about net reduction of destinations over the past few years has actually been minimal, sure they dropped the likes of FRA, BOM, SFO and EZE, but they have gained the likes of DXB, DFW, SCL, (and YVR seasonal). The global presence hasn't changed much at all (maybe reduced frequency), so QFs role in such situations wouldn't change all that much in regards to global reach. However, what has changed, is the spare aircraft QF have lying around, their scheduling use to be a lot looser. But where needed I'm sure QF could resched flights in such a situation. On QFs side, is there any reason why they couldn't deploy JQ to help in such a situation to assist as an additional resource?

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):
I think John Borghetti a while back suggested that VA could easily fill the same role as QF if needed, but given the much smaller fleet of VA (77W's and A332's - their only suitable aircraft), one would question if VA could ever respond as effectively as QF could.

VA is even more hindered, not only is their global reach reduced due to limited destinations, but they have the same situation as QF with available aircraft due to tight schedules, which would cause VA greater issues with the overall smaller fleet.

If requested or needed by the government, I'm sure both airlines could pull their weight, retime other flights to work around it in a time of need, and I'm sure the government would rather deal with the Aussie airlines than foreign carriers.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting 747m8te (Reply 21):
On QFs side, is there any reason why they couldn't deploy JQ to help in such a situation to assist as an additional resource?

In this context, I think the article probably is referring to QF group. So there wouldn't be an issue getting JQ to ferry back affected citizens. Although from a PR point of view, a red kangaroo flying back Australians rather than a orange star certainly has a better ring to it.

Quoting 747m8te (Reply 21):
If requested or needed by the government, I'm sure both airlines could pull their weight, retime other flights to work around it in a time of need, and I'm sure the government would rather deal with the Aussie airlines than foreign carriers.

Absolutely both VA/QF would pull their wieght, but I think the article is asking the question of whether QF could be expected and has the ability to do such a role if the Government continues to open up the air market even more and therefore its implying that QF International could shrink in size where it doesn't have a relevant market share/presence and worst case scenario, no longer have any long haul international presence (and hence fleet).
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):

I think if we want an airline of our own to do our bidding when we want it to, we need to step up and pay for it.

How can we expect the airline to be what is basically a private charter service when we need it, whilst expecting it to operate completely as a private company?

If we want their help in an emergency, the options are:

1) Hope that Qantas have a con$cience and step up when needed (or more likely, when the government offers to pay for a charter).
2) The airline returns to government ownership and control.
3) Ongoing government subsidies or protection to ensure there is enough slack in the fleet to allow such flights whilst keeping QF in a profitable position to compete in this free market.

The recently-amended Qantas Sales Act flew in the face of common sense as we expected the company to compete in the free market whilst meeting government-imposed obligations to Australia. The same applies for people who expect QF to fly to wherever just because some Australians are in trouble. They are a private company and whilst personally I think they should perform such flights on moral grounds, they are not an arm of the government and therefore they do not exist to do as we please.

For the record, I think we need to let go of the idea that we can have our very own airline to save us if we ever need it again - and in the modern world I don't really think that would be necessary.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:24 am

Quoting benjjk (Reply 23):
(or more likely, when the government offers to pay for a charter)

To be totally fair to QF, they don't generally wait to be asked. In the past they've stepped up and done what they felt they could reasonably do, and negotiated about $ etc later. In fact, from what I heard at the time, the Christchurch earthquake flights ended up being paid for by QF.

FWIW I'm on the fence in terms of how QF's and VA's roles in emergencies and the like should be structured and/or mandated. For mine, if the need is there then it should be up to DFAT and to an extent the RAAF to sort it out, but if a private company wants to step in and offer its assistance, and has the capacity to do so, then more power to them.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:29 am

QF is in an interesting place. It does all these things and can claim the national airline card. The moment it doesn't, the public will walk away and not think of it as the national airline again. QF has to get better at playing the national airline card IMO and playing it in the confines of a free market. There is no point asking for subsidies, govt ownership, govt loans and favourable legal treatment in bilaterals. Do what they are doing with HK and block additional rights until AU carriers get a fair deal.

On route deregulation, I would hope that TPTB would only grant more rights when the reciprocal rights received are of equivalent value to the Australian carriers. The Libs went nuts when Whitlam gave away the house, and it surprises me that on Liberal watch, similar might happen.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:36 am

Quoting benjjk (Reply 23):

Qantas Sales Act needs to apply to all Australian Airlines coughvirgincough.

Get NZ and EY out of there.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:52 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):

I don't see why it needs to be QF, or in fact an Australian airline/carrier. Why can't it be the RAAF or a Chinese/Indonesian carrier? I'm sure if NZ or FJ had an aircraft sitting around that was capable they would send it to rescue Australians.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 24):
Christchurch earthquake flights ended up being paid for by QF.

QF was the first international carrier to arrive in CHC with emergency service crews on board within 6 hours of the quake hitting. IIRC the flight was a charter as they had a B738 simply sitting in SYD.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 27):
I don't see why it needs to be QF, or in fact an Australian airline/carrier. Why can't it be the RAAF or a Chinese/Indonesian carrier? I'm sure if NZ or FJ had an aircraft sitting around that was capable they would send it to rescue Australians.

It doesn't need to be an Australian carrier, the most important thing is to get the affected people to safety. However, there is no guarantee that:

1) The Chinese/Indonesian airline will respond to the request (nor do they have the obligation) OR
2) They may be requested to give priority to and evacuate their own nationals first, meaning potentially no room to evacuate all Australians.

Such requests are usually emergencies, so I don't think it's a case of the Australian Government asking around different airlines and hoping they have spare aircraft. In the case of QF in previous examples, they were able to respond very quickly. Something that another airline may not have the incentive/moral obligation to do. And in the case of QF/VA, priority would be given to Australians.

Ultimately, the RAAF should play a major role in any such evacuation, but I think there are some who would like QF/VA to be strong as they would be the safety net in any such evacuation.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 28):
Ultimately, the RAAF should play a major role in any such evacuation, but I think there are some who would like QF/VA to be strong as they would be the safety net in any such evacuation.

Lets also remember that the RAAF has only recently introduced aircraft, c-17's and A330's, that would be able to be of use in any large scale civilian airlift. Prior to that they were chartering for any large scale stuff hence the need to call on QF.
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 28):
Ultimately, the RAAF should play a major role in any such evacuation, but I think there are some who would like QF/VA to be strong as they would be the safety net in any such evacuation.

Does Australia have anything like the US CRAF - Civil Reserve Air Fleet - system?;

http://www.amc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=234

"CIVIL RESERVE AIR FLEET

A unique and significant part of the nation's air mobility resources is the Civil Reserve Air Fleet or CRAF. Selected aircraft from U.S. airlines, contractually committed to CRAF, augment Department of Defense airlift requirements in emergencies when the need for airlift exceeds the capability of military aircraft.

The airlines contractually pledge aircraft to the various segments of CRAF, ready for activation when needed. To provide incentives for civil carriers to commit aircraft to the CRAF program and to assure the United States of adequate airlift reserves, the government makes peacetime DOD airlift business available to civilian airlines that offer aircraft to the CRAF. DOD offers business through the CRAF Charter Airlift Services contract."


Obviously, the US has massively more foreign commitments than Australia, but it seems like a pretty good arrangement, or some variant of it.

mariner

[Edited 2015-04-08 13:36:55]
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):

I believe the CRAF is one of the supposed reasons for the limited foreign ownership of US-based airlines. However I wonder what situations call for the use of this CRAF? When Egypt deteriorated and QF flew out the Australians, I don't recall US airlines evacuating US citizens?
 
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mariner
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 31):
However I wonder what situations call for the use of this CRAF? When Egypt deteriorated and QF flew out the Australians, I don't recall US airlines evacuating US citizens?

CRAF may not have been necessary for any evacuations of Egypt or Libya or Yemen - presumably military (passenger transport) aircraft would have been used.

The civl fleet only augments the military fleet - passenger and cargo. This press release explains the 2003 activation for the Iraq War:

http://www.defense.gov/Releases/Release.aspx?ReleaseID=3628

"CIVIL RESERVE AIR FLEET STAGE I ACTIVATION ANNOUNCED"

It's major value is when bulk transportation is required, beyond the standing capability of the military.

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bunumuring
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:07 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 29):
Lets also remember that the RAAF has only recently introduced aircraft, c-17's and A330's, that would be able to be of use in any large scale civilian airlift. Prior to that they were chartering for any large scale stuff hence the need to call on QF.

So true, mate. I suggest the same: the current day RAAF would be able to cope with most situations requiring large-scale repatriation of Australians.

I remember reading how QF staff were asked for volunteers for a flight into somewhere dangerous (was it the ME? Africa?) at some point years and years ago, pre-VA. I don't remember the details however.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:02 am

The last time that tens of thousands of Australians were stranded it was Qantas CEO Alan Joyce who stranded them!

And as for the idea of Jetstar coming to the rescue, it didn't. It claimed it was a totally different airline, refused to honour Qantas tickets and charged hugely inflated prices for new ones.

Qantas gave away forever any consideration of reward for a role at times of national crisis at that time.
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
charged hugely inflated prices for new ones.

Did it? Or were they simply priced like all last minute tickets are priced????
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:15 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
Qantas gave away forever any consideration of reward for a role at times of national crisis at that time.

In your book, perhaps. Not in mine.

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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:41 am

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 35):
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):charged hugely inflated prices for new ones.Did it? Or were they simply priced like all last minute tickets are priced????

Last minute ticket prices or up scaling fares for 'special' events are two different things. Lets look at the day New Zealand and Australia played the CWC final in MEL. There was a news article over about flights to/from MEL and one quote in the article is this "Air New Zealand's website showed no availability on flights from Auckland to Melbourne until Monday.

But at lunchtime it remained possible to buy tickets departing for Melbourne from Wellington or Christchurch on Thursday, priced about $1500 return."

I've just done a search on NZ for next weekend from WLG-MEL return and tickets are just under $800, which was about the same time frame kiwi fans had to book tickets.

Its no secret that airlines and hotels will up their costs to meet demand and when QF strands its passengers and JQ 'is not part of the QF group' story comes out then naturally JQ are going to lift their last fares.
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting 777ER (Reply 37):
Its no secret that airlines and hotels will up their costs to meet demand and when QF strands its passengers and JQ 'is not part of the QF group' story comes out then naturally JQ are going to lift their last fares.

I really think that I want to see some hard evidence of this before I accept this premise. If someone can produce this evidence then they can also send it to the ACCC and sue QF/JQ for market manipulation. For this reason, I doubt that this occurred, QF would not be that stupid.
 
747m8te
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
The last time that tens of thousands of Australians were stranded it was Qantas CEO Alan Joyce who stranded them!

And it was in the best interest of the passengers that they did! Brilliant move by Qantas, and it ensured less disruptions for travel since thanks to ending the movement by greedy union members. Look at the result, you cannot deny the strike action stopped, and ultimately over the long run less passengers have been disrupted as a result of that short term pain.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
And as for the idea of Jetstar coming to the rescue, it didn't. It claimed it was a totally different airline, refused to honour Qantas tickets and charged hugely inflated prices for new ones.

Wrong again, they would have been last minute tickets, cheap fares sell out, so it just appears like the fares are expensive because the cheap ones are sold...its a perception that the prices were higher, because it is not often many of those passengers by last minute tickets...it would have been the likes of the flexi fares left. Qantas wouldn't just be able to go rebook on JQ anyway, as it isn't like JQ just have aircraft lying around not doing anything, those flights would have already been full with their own pax.

Example I had late last year, I had to do an emergency trip to DRW, QF were sold out, and only seats available were on VA, my flight back from DRW-BNE with VA was nearly $800 in economy oneway, it was probably the last fare left and happened to be a flexi fare...I had no choice, buy and demand, flight was full....should I accuse them of gouging because it was Christmas on top a normally elevate fare at that time of year?? No...I booked a last minute ticket. Get over it! It is the same on all airlines.

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
Qantas gave away forever any consideration of reward for a role at times of national crisis at that time.

Your opinion, definitely not mine! They did what was best for both the passengers and the airline in the long run.

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 38):
I really think that I want to see some hard evidence of this before I accept this premise. If someone can produce this evidence then they can also send it to the ACCC and sue QF/JQ for market manipulation. For this reason, I doubt that this occurred, QF would not be that stupid.

Agreed, it isn't something that is easy to get away with!
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zkncj
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:34 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 20):
I think John Borghetti a while back suggested that VA could easily fill the same role as QF if needed, but given the much smaller fleet of VA (77W's and A332's - their only suitable aircraft), one would question if VA could ever respond as effectively as QF could.

While VA widebody fleet is pretty small, VA 3x share holders all have an reasonable sized fleet that we could access if needed.

e.g NZ has 15x 777s (with talk of adding an extra 2, so that would be 17x 77W). there is also the current 3x 787s, which will grow to 12x in the next 3 years.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 24):
To be totally fair to QF, they don't generally wait to be asked. In the past they've stepped up and done what they felt they could reasonably do, and negotiated about $ etc later. In fact, from what I heard at the time, the Christchurch earthquake flights ended up being paid for by QF.

Pretty much most airline would, it helps them publicly. NZ ended up covering its own costs for CHC, which we're much higher than QF. For a couple of weeks after the quakes they kept the fares at $29 in/out of CHC and ran 744/772/77W on domesitc flights
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:03 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 40):
While VA widebody fleet is pretty small, VA 3x share holders all have an reasonable sized fleet that we could access if needed.

Hmm, not so sure. Don't think an investee company (VA) has that level of control over their owners/shareholders, EY/SQ/NZ calls the shots the other way around. I think the Australian Government would have more leverage with EY/NZ/SQ than VA would.

Again, the point is an Australian based carrier is going to give priority for Australian citizens and is more likely to respond compared with an international carrier. Whilst I don't doubt that NZ/SQ would more than happy to help evacuate Australians, in the event of a situation that impacts multiple nationalities, SQ/NZ would give priority to Singaporeans/NZ nationals (which is fair enough as well).
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 34):
The last time that tens of thousands of Australians were stranded it was Qantas CEO Alan Joyce who stranded them!

And as for the idea of Jetstar coming to the rescue, it didn't. It claimed it was a totally different airline, refused to honour Qantas tickets and charged hugely inflated prices for new ones.

Qantas gave away forever any consideration of reward for a role at times of national crisis at that time.

Wow, I am so glad we can go back to this discussion, it's always so productive and never sounds like a broken record!

The fact of the matter is QF has in the past helped out, VA hasn't and their are a range of factors for it. Lets not pretend NZ/SQ/EY would use one of their aircraft (and in turn, having to cancel/delay flights) to help rescue Australian citizens without financial reward (and so they shouldn't, its not their job!) but QF has and this discussion is whether that is important enough to warrant protecting QF. This discussion isnt about bringing back the same old QF-hatred over the grounding - it happened, its been discussed to death, lets all agree to disagree and move on!
 
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 42):
Wow, I am so glad we can go back to this discussion, it's always so productive and never sounds like a broken record!

Sometimes the oldies are the goodies!

The issue is not whether it was a good commercial move or not.

The point is that one part of the Qantas group deliberately stranded its passengers, rightly or wrongly. And another part of the Qantas group refused to help those stranded passengers who had paid part of the Qantas group for travel, and made them buy a new ticket at high last-minute limited-capacity prices.

Which makes it impossible to trust assertions like:

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 22):
In this context, I think the article probably is referring to QF group. So there wouldn't be an issue getting JQ to ferry back affected citizens

History shows that there most certainly would be an issue getting JQ to pi** on an Australian who was on fire. They didn't even take responsibility for people who had paid their own organisation for travel when they were stranded.

It would be rather like putting Gary Glitter in charge of a school.
 
Sydscott
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:23 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 33):
So true, mate. I suggest the same: the current day RAAF would be able to cope with most situations requiring large-scale repatriation of Australians.

I remember reading how QF staff were asked for volunteers for a flight into somewhere dangerous (was it the ME? Africa?) at some point years and years ago, pre-VA. I don't remember the details however.

I'd agree. The C-17's and the A330's the RAAF has now are easily the most capable military airlift aircraft in the world today. It's actually a credit to both sides of politics that the decision was made to spend the money on them. However it's also about where the "event" happens and who is closest to respond. One of the advantages of QF having 4 aircraft on the ground at LHR is that they had the ability to quickly respond and re-schedule / re-book people on BA and other airlines. They have the same ability to do so at DXB via EK but due to the QF schedule nowadays the necessarily organisational slack isn't there. So it would actually be interesting depending on location, to see who could actually provide uplift in an emergency. I believe the RAAF have an A330 based in the Middle East anyway so that could probably do the job if the tanker / transport conversion is sitting with them. If not, I'd suggest that VA probably has the most "slack" in their arrangements into Abu Dhabi in terms of 777 usage.
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 43):
History shows that there most certainly would be an issue getting JQ to pi** on an Australian who was on fire. They didn't even take responsibility for people who had paid their own organisation for travel when they were stranded.

Quite clearly you have an agenda to push.

The CEO of QF Group has ultimate control of both QF and JQ, if they chose to help evacuate Australians from overseas, they could instruct either a JQ aircraft or a QF aircraft to do the job.

Using the QF Industrial Strike/Grounding is not a relevant example, if I buy a QF ticket, there is no expectation or obligation for the other airlines within QF Group (Qantas Link, Jetstar, Jet Connect) to accommodate you onto a JQ service and vice versa. Your ticket is with QF not JQ and not QF Group. Even if JQ were ordered to accommodate stranded QF passengers, there was no way they could accommodate everyone, so on what basis would you choose which QF passengers to assist? In the end, QF offered everyone affected a full refund or rebooking, in which case the passenger was able to get a refund and make a rebooking with JQ anyway, so your point is mute.

Coles, Bunnings, BiLo, Kmart and Officeworks are all part of the Wesfarmers Group, all of the stores I listed have a very small number of overlapping products (e.g. I can buy a bottle of coke at Coles, BiLo, Officeworks, Kmart). Using your logic, If I buy a bottle of coke from Coles but want a refund for that bottle, I could go to any of those stores listed (Kmart, BiLo, Officeworks), good luck with trying to get a refund from a non-Coles store.
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Nouflyer
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 45):
In the end, QF offered everyone affected a full refund or rebooking, in which case the passenger was able to get a refund and make a rebooking with JQ anyway, so your point is mute.

Hardly.

I avoid Tigerair because I know that if their flight is cancelled they will quite probably refund my ticket and I'm left buying one at an inflated price at the last minute from a more reliable carrier. The refund hardly helps at all. So I buy Qantas or Virgin.

The Qantas group wilfully stranded passengers who had bought tickets on them in good faith. And they did not lift a finger to help them with the other part of the group. They took no actions whatsoever to try to minimise the inconvenience or distress or desperation of those passengers.

All's fair in industrial relations. I get that. There's no point rehashing who was right or wrong.

But once you have behaved just as badly as an out-of-control union and stranded passengers all around the globe you really have sacrificed the ability to portray yourselves as the airline which needs special treatment so that it can help Aussies in distress.
 
qf002
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:25 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 46):
The Qantas group wilfully stranded passengers who had bought tickets on them in good faith.

How many passengers would have been stranded in the event of major strike action?

Is it better to strand 100% of passengers for 2 days or 50% of passengers for 2 weeks?
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 43):
The point is that one part of the Qantas group deliberately stranded its passengers, rightly or wrongly. And another part of the Qantas group refused to help those stranded passengers who had paid part of the Qantas group for travel, and made them buy a new ticket at high last-minute limited-capacity prices.
Quoting Nouflyer (Reply 46):
The Qantas group wilfully stranded passengers who had bought tickets on them in good faith. And they did not lift a finger to help them with the other part of the group. They took no actions whatsoever to try to minimise the inconvenience or distress or desperation of those passengers.

Wrong on both counts, they offered QF ticket holders discounted fares and tried to put on additional services to assist stranded passengers:

http://www.news.com.au/finance/busin...ngers/story-e6frfkur-1226180711108



Edit: http://www.jetstar.com/mediacentre/l...42f5-963b-c6f92a9fd951&language=en

[Edited 2015-04-09 05:37:56]


[Edited 2015-04-09 05:48:32]
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zkncj
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RE: Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 42):
The fact of the matter is QF has in the past helped out, VA hasn't and their are a range of factors for it. Lets not pretend NZ/SQ/EY would use one of their aircraft (and in turn, having to cancel/delay flights) to help rescue Australian citizens without financial reward (and so they shouldn't, its not their job!) but QF has and this discussion is whether that is important enough to warrant protecting QF.

Not forgetting to who the airline was that flew thousands of Australians, that would of otherwise been stranded during the 2011 ash-cloud?

Qantas pretty much canceled every Tasman flight for an week, and left people stranded in New Zealand. NZ did everything it could to help people get back to Australia at there own cost.

flying MEL-AKL at 14,000 fleet in an 777-200ER was intresting

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