Australian Aviation Thread Part 118

Sydscott · Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 48):
Wrong on both counts, they offered QF ticket holders discounted fares and tried to put on additional services to assist stranded passengers:

Can we not allow a troll to hijack an otherwise interesting thread?

Enobar · Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 50):
Can we not allow a troll to hijack an otherwise interesting thread?

Agreed.

The Qantas grounding debate is history. It happened, its over, there have been no other major disruptions to the Qantas network since except for natural/weather events. Continued back and forth debate about it by opposing sides who are so wedded to their views that they would never budge from their opinion regardless of what evidence is put forth is useless, boring and adds nothing to a thread about current events.

In other news, I was at the Melbourne airport the other day and was surprised to see Jetstar A320s with winglets - I thought they all had wingtip fences - are these a new retro fit or have the come from Airbus? I completely missed that change.. I feel like I should have airplane nerd points deducted from me...

a320fan · Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting Enobar (Reply 51):

They have been delivered with winglets since 2013. There are quite a few around.

zkncj · Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting Enobar (Reply 51):
In other news, I was at the Melbourne airport the other day and was surprised to see Jetstar A320s with winglets - I thought they all had wingtip fences - are these a new retro fit or have the come from Airbus? I completely missed that change.. I feel like I should have airplane nerd points deducted from me...

They we're meant for Jetstar HK/JP, but due to them not being needed that disposed some of their older aussie based A320s

TruemanQLD · Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 48):
Wrong on both counts, they offered QF ticket holders discounted fares and tried to put on additional services to assist stranded passengers:

I really dont have words for this...

Quoting Enobar (Reply 51):
In other news, I was at the Melbourne airport the other day and was surprised to see Jetstar A320s with winglets - I thought they all had wingtip fences - are these a new retro fit or have the come from Airbus? I completely missed that change.. I feel like I should have airplane nerd points deducted from me...

You should

they have been around for a little while and they are retrofitting as well

Sydscott · Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:48 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 48):
Wrong on both counts

N.B. SYDSpotter I wasn't calling you the troll. Just to clarify in case anyone was in doubt!

Also in some other news, and further to the discussion on airlift capability Australia has confirmed its purchase of 2 more C-17's.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...nsport-planes-20150409-1mhsan.html

TN486 · Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:17 am

Just got my hands on a new book, entitled "A Lifetime in Longhaul - The Bigger Picture" written by ex QF Captain (and a very senior one at that) Bill Anderson. It is a series of fascinating stories of passion and commitment by those who support the pilots, i.e the highly skilled engineers and operational ground staff. In my view it is a must read for anyone who loves flying and or the industry. I obtained it by ordering online thru www.billanderson747.com.
It is his second book, the first was stories from QF pilots who went through the same Intake of the Qantas Cadet Pilot Scheme as he did.

SYDSpotter · Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 55):
N.B. SYDSpotter I wasn't calling you the troll. Just to clarify in case anyone was in doubt!

No dramas all good

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 55):
Also in some other news, and further to the discussion on airlift capability Australia has confirmed its purchase of 2 more C-17's.

I guess potentially part of the rationale for the purchase is that the C-17 line is now officially shut and so this order is for a bit of 'future proofing'. The other plus for Australia is that we will get these aircraft fairly quickly as Boeing have pretty much already built the aircraft (there are 5 completed aircraft left to be sold).

TN486 · Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:18 am

Australian Aviation is reporting QF Link 717 heavy maintenance to be based in Canberra from later this year. They will be using the hanger that was financed by the ACT Government for Impulse.

Anyone know why the change - does this signal a possible further relationship change with Cobham?

TruemanQLD · Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting TN486 (Reply 58):
Australian Aviation is reporting QF Link 717 heavy maintenance to be based in Canberra from later this year. They will be using the hanger that was financed by the ACT Government for Impulse.

Anyone know why the change - does this signal a possible further relationship change with Cobham?

Where is it currently done? Good news for Canberra and probably makes sense given the high concentration of 717 flights there

777Jet · Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:02 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 55):
Also in some other news, and further to the discussion on airlift capability Australia has confirmed its purchase of 2 more C-17's.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi....html

From the article:

"Prime Minister Tony Abbott announced on Friday morning the government will spend $1 billion to buy, equip and maintain two additional C-17s, taking the RAAF's fleet to eight."

I'm glad the $1 billion includes maintaining the birds as well (which I expected) despite some dodgy reporting by a certain news radio station yesterday which said it will cost $1 billion just 'to buy' the two C-17s - that got me going... Yeah, I knew C-17s are not gold plated

IMHO this purchase is a good decision. I wonder if it was a 'Captains Call' ???

QF29 · Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:29 am

I was at MEL the other day and i noticed a QF 747 parked at the domestic gates. I thought all Perth flights were using A330s and they had discontinued 747's on domestic routes.

What route did they sub the 747 onto?

Cheers

TN486 · Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:01 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 59):
Where is it currently done

Cobham Aviation Services engineering facilities in Adelaide. These heavy maint checks occur every 2 years, take 28 days with 5500 manhours (source: Australian Aviation).

QF175 · Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:12 am

This is a great news...

Air New Zealand - Sunshine Coast

Air New Zealand will expand its popular Maroochydore (Sunshine Coast) - Auckland service with the introduction of a new summer service. Flights will operate December 2015 through to end February 2016, 2-3x weekly with A320 aircraft. Air New Zealand had previously operated flights during the winter only. Air New Zealand initially commenced flights on the route in 2012:

Australian Aviation - Air NZ adds summer Auckland-Sunshine Coast flights

Reminder - On 25 April 2015 Air New Zealand will operate its final Sydney - Rotorua flight. Late last year the airline announced that it would be scrapping the two weekly flights due to council removing its subsidy/funding.

Air Niugini - Cairns

On 29 March 2015 Air Niugini introduced Fokker 70 and 100 aircraft on its Cairns - Port Moresby route, replacing the existing Q400.

Source - Air Niugini

pugsley · Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting QF29 (Reply 61):
I was at MEL the other day and i noticed a QF 747 parked at the domestic gates. I thought all Perth flights were using A330s and they had discontinued 747's on domestic routes.

What route did they sub the 747 onto?

Cheers

None!
It was just parked there awaiting its next international operation, the QF95 MEL-LAX. When T2 is to busy, the aircraft is towed to the domestic apron/gates for catering and cleaning before being sent back to international for its next service. Great to see it on the domestic apron!

AJ · Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 53):
Quoting Enobar (Reply 51):
In other news, I was at the Melbourne airport the other day and was surprised to see Jetstar A320s with winglets - I thought they all had wingtip fences - are these a new retro fit or have the come from Airbus? I completely missed that change.. I feel like I should have airplane nerd points deducted from me...

They we're meant for Jetstar HK/JP, but due to them not being needed that disposed some of their older aussie based A320s

The Sharklets as fitted to Jetstar A320 deliveries from VH-VFN onwards are not necessarily HK or JP orders, in fact I believe that only VFT and VFY fit in that bracket.
Additionally Jetstar has retrofitted VH-VFL and XSJ with Sharklets.

777Jet · Sat Apr 11, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 59):
Quoting TN486 (Reply 58):
Australian Aviation is reporting QF Link 717 heavy maintenance to be based in Canberra from later this year. They will be using the hanger that was financed by the ACT Government for Impulse.

Anyone know why the change - does this signal a possible further relationship change with Cobham?

Where is it currently done? Good news for Canberra and probably makes sense given the high concentration of 717 flights there

Thanks for that info TN486.

I agree that the move to CBR makes sense given the number of 717 movements there.

Quoting AJ (Reply 65):
The Sharklets as fitted to Jetstar A320 deliveries from VH-VFN onwards are not necessarily HK or JP orders, in fact I believe that only VFT and VFY fit in that bracket.
Additionally Jetstar has retrofitted VH-VFL and XSJ with Sharklets.

Do you know how many other A320s JQ plan to retrofit with Sharklets?

I finally flew on my first A320 with Sharklets not long ago (VH-VFV) on SYD-OOL

Sydscott · Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:02 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 60):
IMHO this purchase is a good decision. I wonder if it was a 'Captains Call' ???

LOL No it wasn't. It's been in the pipeline for some time but was hurried along by Boeing ceasing production of the C-17. But what Boeing did do before they ceased production was to build about a dozen extra one's in anticipation that countries like Australia would probably buy more. We needed to get in quick before they were gone and I'm glad we have!

qf789 · Sun Apr 12, 2015 6:05 am

QF581 operating SYD-PER returned to SYD today due to an indicator light for rear cargo door. Operates by A332 VH-EBA.

media is quoting its being operated by A380.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel...eturn/story-e6frfq80-1227300555211

777ER · Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 67):
but was hurried along by Boeing ceasing production of the C-17

What other military transport aircraft does Boeing make?

SYDSpotter · Sun Apr 12, 2015 7:49 am

Quoting qf789 (Reply 68):
QF581 operating SYD-PER returned to SYD today due to an indicator light for rear cargo door. Operates by A332 VH-EBA.

media is quoting its being operated by A380.

They were close, not too much difference between a A330 and A380

PER doesn't have a an A380 capable gate yet.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
What other military transport aircraft does Boeing make?

None of comparable lift/range/weight to the C-17.

qf2220 · Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 70):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):What other military transport aircraft does Boeing make?

None of comparable lift/range/weight to the C-17.

I think the C17 was a remnant of the MD lineup no?

Sydscott · Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:13 am

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 70):
They were close, not too much difference between a A330 and A380 PER doesn't have a an A380 capable gate yet.

They got the Airbus bit right. :P

Quoting 777ER (Reply 69):
What other military transport aircraft does Boeing make?

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 70):
None of comparable lift/range/weight to the C-17.

As SYDSpotter said, the C-17 was the biggest one in terms of cargo that Boeing had under production. In terms of military transports the only others are variants of the Boeing BBJ / 737 family as the C-40 class of transports and the KC-46 Pegasus, which is based off of the 767 airframe, but that is a tanker. They also have the AEWAC's aircraft which is based off the 737 frame but that isn't a transport.

FlyboyOz · Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:16 pm

No one has heard about QF group's new uniform?

Qantas group (Qantaslink and Cobham) have shown off their new uniform - It looks very very similar to the Virgin Australia uniform but the collar looks similar to the silkair's new uniform. lol

SYDSpotter · Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:16 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 72):
As SYDSpotter said, the C-17 was the biggest one in terms of cargo that Boeing had under production. In terms of military transports the only others are variants of the Boeing BBJ / 737 family as the C-40 class of transports and the KC-46 Pegasus, which is based off of the 767 airframe, but that is a tanker. They also have the AEWAC's aircraft which is based off the 737 frame but that isn't a transport.

And any of the 737 variants don't really offer much in terms of flexibility/capability required for a military transport.

Short of there being any successor to the C-17, the only viable future alternatives for the RAAF are the C-130 Hercules and A400M.

Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 71):
I think the C17 was a remnant of the MD lineup no?

According to Wikipedia, yes

Razza74 · Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 70):
PER doesn't have a an A380 capable gate yet.

Bay 51 at T1 is A380 capable and hopefully as of the 1st of May will be used daily by an EK A380

Razza74

SYDSpotter · Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 75):
Bay 51 at T1 is A380 capable and hopefully as of the 1st of May will be used daily by an EK A380

Oh, I thought it was still in the process of being constructed, but obviously not. But good news the A380 will be at PER soon. Sadly there won't be any regular QF A380 service in PER in the foreseeable future.

RyanairGuru · Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 73):

Why on earth would QantasLink have a new uniform? Sunstat/Eastern/Cobham all wear the mainline uniform.

I'm not sure I believe it (not that I'm accusing you of lying!) until I see it in daily use.

AJ · Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 66):

I'm not sure.

vhebb · Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:04 pm

Its Network Aviation (Part of Qantas Group) that has the new uniform.

Qantas/QantasLink will continue to wear the existing uniform.

qf2220 · Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 74):
Quoting Qf2220 (Reply 71):I think the C17 was a remnant of the MD lineup no?

According to Wikipedia, yes

Perhaps we have read the same article over time then!!!

TN486 · Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting TN486 (Reply 58):
Anyone know why the change - does this signal a possible further relationship change with Cobham?

Apparently not. An excerpt from a statement from Cobham:

However, the company stressed there was no change to Cobham’s existing contract for other work with Qantas, which in addition to line maintenance also included operating the aircraft on behalf of Qantas and supplying flightcrew and cabin crew. The company has worked with Qantas for about 20 years.

“This decision does not impact the broader contract held by Cobham to operate and support the Qantaslink fleet of Boeing 717 aircraft,” Cobham Aviation Services president Peter Nottage said in a statement.

The Cobham website outlines the contract and the services provided under that contract. For the life of me I cannot understand why this change of heavy maintenance has occurred. Its ok people, I won't lose any sleep over it, i am just feeling a little perplexed over this, tis all.

QF175 · Mon Apr 13, 2015 12:37 pm

Yet another expansion project planned for Brisbane Airport:

DOMESTIC REGIONAL SATELLITE TERMINAL

Click for images

Quote:
Timing: Mid 2015 to mid-2017

Plans are underway to build a new $20 million Regional Satellite Terminal at the northern end of the Domestic Terminal Building (DTB), part of an overall $100m expansion of the precinct.

The work is a direct result of the continuing growth in regional Queensland and Australia, as well as the increasing demands of low-cost carrier airline operations.

The satellite terminal will be built as a standalone building approximately 300m away from the existing DTB, with passengers initially transferred by bus until a ground level walkway is constructed.

The satellite terminal will have 16 new boarding gates, as well as 2,000 square metres of space including passenger lounge areas, food, beverage, retail tenancies, amenities, service areas and offices.

VIRGIN AUSTRALIA

VA has opened the expanded portion of its Brisbane lounge. Later in the year the airline will open even more additional space adjacent to the reception desk. The airline will also open its unique Premium Entry offering (same as Sydney) in September.

Source - AusBT

[Edited 2015-04-13 05:38:40]

SYDSpotter · Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting QF175 (Reply 82):
Yet another expansion project planned for Brisbane Airport:

DOMESTIC REGIONAL SATELLITE TERMINAL

So does this mean both VA and QF will get to use it or just QF (as they take up the Northern end of the domestic terminal)?

747m8te · Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 83):
So does this mean both VA and QF will get to use it or just QF (as they take up the Northern end of the domestic terminal)?

I'm guessing mostly QF with their large regional presence considering that area is currently already used by QF for the Dash 8 stand off bays. But what it would probably allow is QF to move 717 ops up there and possibly even JQ (like in MEL where QFlink and JQ share the same pier), and from them moving out of the current central pier at BNE, this would allow VA/TT to utilise the central pier more, thus both QF/VA gain terminal space in their respective sides of the terminal.

bunumuring · Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:59 pm

I'm actually a bit disappointed with the government over the C-17 purchase...
Yes, this is a civil thread and I've discussed the C-17 in the military forum, but others have brought it up here.
Boeing built 10 'white tail' C-17s to round off production after the last orders were met. These planes are slowly being bought up, with the UAE taking two more, Canada one more and Australia 'definitely' taking two additional ones so far....
However, a certain PM apparently 'said' a while ago that two more would be ordered for the RAAF, taking our 'extra' order from two to four, making a final fleet of ten of these extraordinary aircraft. Now apparently, with the above mentioned announcement, it seems the RAAF's fleet will stall at eight aircraft...
So Tony, what happened to the plan for the other two? Budgetary issues? Announcements on the run? Hmmmmmm...
And what about the sixth A330MRTT for the RAAF: the so-called 'Air Force One' with the VIP suite?
Back to normal (civil) transmission, everyone...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

PS: I caught in passing a report on Channel Seven (Sydney) news last night about Lion Air 'flying to many Australian cities in the near future'... And then that VietJet also wants to fly to Australia. Anyone see the report in full? It seemed to be some kind of review by a male reporter of five LCCs (Scoot, Cebu Pacific, Air Asia, Lion Air, VietJet) who fly into Australia or 'want to fly' into Australia.... I was at a relative's place having dinner and couldn't be rude to run through into the media room when I heard the reporter speak...

[Edited 2015-04-13 08:05:32]

qf789 · Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 85):
PS: I caught in passing a report on Channel Seven (Sydney) news last night about Lion Air 'flying to many Australian cities in the near future'... And then that VietJet also wants to fly to Australia. Anyone see the report in full? It seemed to be some kind of review by a male reporter of five LCCs (Scoot, Cebu Pacific, Air Asia, Lion Air, VietJet) who fly into Australia or 'want to fly' into Australia.... I was at a relative's place having dinner and couldn't be rude to run through into the media room when I heard the reporter speak...

I didn't watch it cause I was at work but I did hear the promo on the radio and see the ad on tv. From what I remember it was something to the tune of "we put 5 budget airlines from around the world to the test". I was under the impression that they would be testing them in Europe and the US but clearly that wasn't the case.

Lion airlines may want to fly to many Australian cities however it will only remain a dream of theirs as CASA isn't going to let them operate until their safety record vastly improves.

Vietjet is interesting but I do wonder how they will go about it. To my understanding they have just starting getting the A321 of which the current version has a range of 3200nm. To operate SGN-SYD the distance is about 3700nm. They could get the A321neoLR which has a range of up to 4000nm but that wont be available to 2019 but once you take winds into account it will probably not be enough. They could order a widebody or could operate a 1 stop service to the east coast. Operating to PER & DRW nonstop wouldn't be a problem however I don't think neither of those would be where VietJet would want to start their Australian operations to.

Australian aviation is reporting that the Department of Infrastructure and Regional development has called on the ACCC to reverse course and give Qantas and China Eastern proposed alliance the green light.

The federal government’s Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development has called on Australia’s competition regulator to reverse course and give Qantas’s proposed alliance with China Eastern the green light.

In March, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) said it a draft determination it intended to knock back the tie-up, arguing the partnership would give Qantas and China Eastern “an increased ability and incentive to limit capacity and/or increase airfares” on the Sydney-Shanghai route.

However, the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development said in a submission to the ACCC following the draft ruling, the proposed agreement was “positive for the Australian economy and is consistent with the Australian Government’s aviation policy settings”.

“The department sees no reason to deny the proposed coordination agreement,” the general manager for the Department’s aviation industry policy branch Stephen Borthwick said in the submission dated April 8.

“The benefits that will flow to Australia’s aviation industry, Australian consumers, the Australian tourism industry, and the Australian economy as a whole are exactly the benefits the Australian Government’s aviation policy is designed to support.”

In its draft determination, the ACCC expressed concerns that Qantas and China Eastern combined currently operated about 83 per cent of all seats between Sydney and Shanghai.

While Air China also flew between Sydney and Shanghai with a three times a week service, the ACCC said it did not believe the Star Alliance member would be an effective competitor against a combined China Eastern-Qantas entity and noted it had reduced its presence on the route over the past five years.

“The ACCC does not consider that Air China will sufficiently constrain Qantas and China Eastern in the event they decide to reduce or limit growth in capacity to increase airfares if the Proposed Conduct is authorised,” the ACCC said in its draft determination.

“The ACCC considers that the lessening of competition on this route that will arise as a result of the Proposed Conduct is likely to outweigh any of the public benefits likely to arise.”

In response, the Department said the ACCC’s draft ruling was “too narrowly focused on the Sydney-Shanghai route rather than the operations of the wider Australia-China market.”

It argued it was a “commercial reality” that in any given market a hub airline would have a significant market share on routes to or from that hub.

“This should not in itself prevent the formation of immunised alliances with the other carriers when consumer benefits can be showed to outweigh competitive impacts,” the Department’s submission said.

“The department also contends the ACCC has overstated the impacts on the Sydney-Shanghai route, particularly when considered in the context of the existing competition on the route and the availability of one-stop services in the broader Australia-China market.”

Meanwhile, the National Tourism Alliance argued in its post-draft determination submission the alliance would allow both Australian and Chinese markets to “better and more efficiently serve secondary cities in China through a domestic Chinese hub”.

“The draft determination constrains the ability of Australian airlines to develop a strategic hub in China,” the Alliance’s April 8 submission said.

“The Australia-China market is highly competitive in terms of both direct traffic and indirect options through other Asian hub cities.

“We are concerned that the draft determination cements a competitive advantage for other carriers and these hubs, through the existing liberal air services agreements that China has with them, in addition to the arrangements that Australia has with these third countries.”

Qantas planned to relocate its operations Shanghai Pudong Airport to Terminal One, which is where China Eastern is based, as part of the alliance to improve transit times and share facilities, among other benefits.

Sydscott · Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 85):
However, a certain PM apparently 'said' a while ago that two more would be ordered for the RAAF, taking our 'extra' order from two to four, making a final fleet of ten of these extraordinary aircraft. Now apparently, with the above mentioned announcement, it seems the RAAF's fleet will stall at eight aircraft...

I don't believe it was ever intended for the RAAF to get 10 of them. The initial order was for a batch of 4 with 2 lots of 2 aircraft ordered in addition. It was my understanding that ultimately the RAAF would receive 8 of them and that the were happy with that number. See link below.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 85):
And what about the sixth A330MRTT for the RAAF: the so-called 'Air Force One' with the VIP suite?

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...ter-flags-additional-kc-30s-c-17s/

The Gillard Govt, stupidly in my opinion, extended the lease on the RAAF Boeing BBJ fleet so the acquisition of aditional A330 / KC-30's will be covered as part of the defence white paper process. Australia had to act on the C-17's lest it missed out however there is no rush on the A330's.

Quoting qf789 (Reply 86):
Australian aviation is reporting that the Department of Infrastructure and Regional development has called on the ACCC to reverse course and give Qantas and China Eastern proposed alliance the green light.

Not unexpected. Considering the announcement was made and the deal signed in front of the Chinese President and Tony Abbott there is a political imperative to allow this deal to go through.

bunumuring · Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 87):
The Gillard Govt, stupidly in my opinion, extended the lease on the RAAF Boeing BBJ fleet so the acquisition of aditional A330 / KC-30's will be covered as part of the defence white paper process. Australia had to act on the C-17's lest it missed out however there is no rush on the A330's.

Hi mate,
That's actually wrong.
The extended lease on the BBJs was one of the last acts of Kevin Rudd as PM.
I agree that it was 'stupid'. RAAF pilots will tell you how 'outdated' the comms suite on the BBJs is alone, and that the planes simply do not have the space nor range needed for Australia's PM now that we seem to be more of a global player.

As for the 9th and 10th C-17, it was definitely something publicly discussed by Government, and behind closed doors in Defence and the RAAF. It was not definite, unlike the 7th and 8th C-17s, but it is still disappointing that the RAAF fleet will stall at eight and not ten. With the closing of the production line, there goes our chance to relatively easily extend the lives of the fleet by spreading out the 'use' of the planes over a larger fleet. It has been suggested to me that one reason the Government stalled on the 9th and 10th C-17s was that with the limited supply of whitetails, and high interest from the likes of India, the UAE, Canada and possibly even Britain and Qatar, Boeing could hold the price high and let the customers fight over the last few unsold.

And on a completely different point, has there ever been a better time for Turkish Airlines to announce flights to Sydney and / or Melbourne than right now, with the immense media and public conscience focus on Turkey and Gallipoli?

Cheers,
Bunumuring.

Sydscott · Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:13 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 88):
That's actually wrong.
The extended lease on the BBJs was one of the last acts of Kevin Rudd as PM.

So it's right, just the wrong dud Labour PM's name.

To me it's not even a matter of being a global player. If the PM has to travel then he, or she, needs to be connected and able to travel with the journalists etc that cover politics. In the past both sides of politics have seemed almost afraid of making a decision on a larger RAAF VIP plane purely because of how it might look to the Australian Public. But it's something both side of politics should be using.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 88):
As for the 9th and 10th C-17, it was definitely something publicly discussed by Government, and behind closed doors in Defence and the RAAF. It was not definite, unlike the 7th and 8th C-17s, but it is still disappointing that the RAAF fleet will stall at eight and not ten. With the closing of the production line, there goes our chance to relatively easily extend the lives of the fleet by spreading out the 'use' of the planes over a larger fleet. It has been suggested to me that one reason the Government stalled on the 9th and 10th C-17s was that with the limited supply of whitetails, and high interest from the likes of India, the UAE, Canada and possibly even Britain and Qatar, Boeing could hold the price high and let the customers fight over the last few unsold.

I'm not disappointed. In terms of operations, the RAAF doesn't need 10 C-17's and with the amount of money, wasted in my opinion, they're spending on the F-35 they're lucky to get a budget allocation for additional airlift capacity even if Boeing is closing the production line. Lets not also forget the other RAAF projects going on as well.

777Jet · Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 67):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 60):
IMHO this purchase is a good decision. I wonder if it was a 'Captains Call' ???

LOL No it wasn't.

Joking aside, it couldn't have been a 'Captain's call' anyway because IMHO it was a good call - unlike most of the so called 'Captain's calls' that have seemed to come to an end

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 67):
It's been in the pipeline for some time but was hurried along by Boeing ceasing production of the C-17. But what Boeing did do before they ceased production was to build about a dozen extra one's in anticipation that countries like Australia would probably buy more. We needed to get in quick before they were gone and I'm glad we have!

I'm glad we got them too.

IMHO it was a good move by Boeing to make a few extra before ceasing production and it was also a good move by the Government here to pick up 2 extra birds given that it would be one of the last opportunities to get some of these capable birds.

How many does Boeing have left to get rid of?

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 87):
Quoting bunumuring (Reply 85):
However, a certain PM apparently 'said' a while ago that two more would be ordered for the RAAF, taking our 'extra' order from two to four, making a final fleet of ten of these extraordinary aircraft. Now apparently, with the above mentioned announcement, it seems the RAAF's fleet will stall at eight aircraft...

I don't believe it was ever intended for the RAAF to get 10 of them. The initial order was for a batch of 4 with 2 lots of 2 aircraft ordered in addition. It was my understanding that ultimately the RAAF would receive 8 of them and that the were happy with that number. See link below.

I wouldn't mind seeing a fleet of 10 FWIW

I love the C-17 and think they work well for Australia's airlift needs.

I wouldn't mind one bit if the Government cut $1 billion of welfare / dole payments to pick up another 2 if still possible, taking the fleet to 10

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 89):
dud Labour PM's

x infinity

Sydscott · Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 90):
How many does Boeing have left to get rid of?

They built 12 whitetail C-17's all up. I believe we put a request through the US DOD for 4 of them, making the 10 all up bunumuring was talking about, but have only actually taken 2. So there are 10 of them left as things currently stand. India has stated that they want 6 of them, but so far have not put pen to paper to order them, while the UK and Algeria have also expressed interest but not yet ordered. There has also been interest of varying degrees from New Zealand, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the UAE. So there is no doubt the remaining ones will find a home eventually.

EDIT - sorry the UAE has acquired 2 of them. So there are 8 un-contracted ones at the moment.

[Edited 2015-04-13 18:47:25]

undertheradar · Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:59 am

c'mon guys...this is a CIVIL aviation forum...yes...the original topic involved QF and other civilian airlines....but now all the 'talk' is military a/c centric.
I think it's time to 'move on' from this topic....the CIVIL aviation aspect of this topic has disappeared.
I expect the CIVIL aviation thread to focus on CIVIL aviation matters.

If you wish to continue the discussion on this topic...maybe move it over to the 'Military Aviation Space' forum

Just my opinion...from a CIVIL aviation geek

qf002 · Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting TN486 (Reply 81):
The Cobham website outlines the contract and the services provided under that contract. For the life of me I cannot understand why this change of heavy maintenance has occurred. Its ok people, I won't lose any sleep over it, i am just feeling a little perplexed over this, tis all.

The ACT Government has presumably rolled out the red carpet of incentives to attract QF's business. QF doesn't care where the base it, only what costs them the least to operate.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 88):
RAAF pilots will tell you how 'outdated' the comms suite on the BBJs is alone, and that the planes simply do not have the space nor range needed for Australia's PM now that we seem to be more of a global player.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 89):
If the PM has to travel then he, or she, needs to be connected and able to travel with the journalists etc that cover politics.

Only for the big trips. The vast majority of what the BBJs do is very low key shuttling around of senior ministers, where the capability of the MRTT would be a complete and utter waste.

What they've started doing in the last couple of years is sending an MRTT as a support aircraft with additional staff and media on board, with the PM and immediate entourage continuing to use the BBJ. That arrangement seems to work quite well, though the BBJs sound like they need a comprehensive upgrade then replacement with a new aircraft (presumably based on the MAX) as soon as that is available.

I really don't see the need for anything larger or more capable. If they do decide to go down that path, then it would have to be another aircraft to complement the BBJs rather than replacing them directly.

qf2220 · Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 92):

Im actually ok with a bit of military chat here, especially since the Aust Av fourum has been pretty quiet of late! Perhaps we need to generate a bit more civil chat?!

Sydscott · Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:29 am

Quoting undertheradar (Reply 92):
c'mon guys...this is a CIVIL aviation forum...yes...the original topic involved QF and other civilian airlines....but now all the 'talk' is military a/c centric.
I think it's time to 'move on' from this topic....the CIVIL aviation aspect of this topic has disappeared.
I expect the CIVIL aviation thread to focus on CIVIL aviation matters.

If you wish to continue the discussion on this topic...maybe move it over to the 'Military Aviation Space' forum

Just my opinion...from a CIVIL aviation geek

It's the Australian Aviation thread. We've had a half dozen posts out of 94 on military a/c and military variants of civilian aircraft. It's not compulsory to read everything you know.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 93):
Only for the big trips. The vast majority of what the BBJs do is very low key shuttling around of senior ministers, where the capability of the MRTT would be a complete and utter waste.

What they've started doing in the last couple of years is sending an MRTT as a support aircraft with additional staff and media on board, with the PM and immediate entourage continuing to use the BBJ. That arrangement seems to work quite well, though the BBJs sound like they need a comprehensive upgrade then replacement with a new aircraft (presumably based on the MAX) as soon as that is available.

Not to stray too far, lest we got more complaints, but the BBJ's are leased aircraft as well and are not owned by the RAAF. Plus it's not only the BBJ which is up for replacement but also the 3 Bombardiers which do the bulk of the shuttling people around bit. I've also got no problem with telling senior ministers to park their butts on Qantas or Virgin to slum it up with the rest of us when they're travelling domestically.

Hell even New Zealand has 757's to transport VIP's around!

jrfspa320 · Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:33 am

Had a pretty shocking experience on jetstar sunday/yesterday. flight 3K 131 SIN-PER was meant to leave at 17:55, however due to "weather in perth" we were delayed until 05:00 the next day. The weather in perth was pretty normal, light winds and showers. No other airlines were having issues, including an SQ flight scheduled at the same time. It seems ridiculous that they can blame the weather and therefore avoid any responsibilty. In europe a delay of this length would result in automatic compensation, only after a long wait were we offered a $20 meal voucher. Myself and quite a few others had a meal in the QF SIN lounge instead. We asked if the lounge could be kept open for us (there was quite a few QF frequent flyers/club members passengers affected). Unsurprisingly it didnt happen, which is probably fair enough, But were told "thats what happens when you fly jetstar", not the most helpful comment, resulting in another passenger being irate and saying than QF dont fly internatonal out of PER anymore....anyway eventually arrived 12 hours late. Have complained to jetstar...see what happens.

DeltaB717 · Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 96):

The issue was likely more about forecast weather than actual weather at ETD, and the difference between SQ and 3K in terms of operating aircraft is key here. The SQ flight would be an A330 or a B777 and would have the capacity to carry fuel for a diversion to ADL or ASP in the worst case scenario. Your 3K would have to be an A320 which admittedly could probably (without knowing what procedures and alternates 3K has in place) divert to KGI or similar if PER and Pearce were both beyond the aircraft's limits. That's a whole extra hour or more of fuel for the diversion on top of 5+ for the trip plus reserves and contingencies for both destination and alternate, which may be pushing it for an A320.

The QF Club and compensation issues are separate and, unhelpful as it is, that possibly is the downside of choosing a LCC.

Sydscott · Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:24 am

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 97):
our 3K would have to be an A320 which admittedly could probably (without knowing what procedures and alternates 3K has in place) divert to KGI or similar if PER and Pearce were both beyond the aircraft's limits. That's a whole extra hour or more of fuel for the diversion on top of 5+ for the trip plus reserves and contingencies for both destination and alternate, which may be pushing it for an A320.

I was on a QF 738 in 2012 that diverted, along with 2 other QF 738's, to GET due to bad weather. GET is on the way from SIN to PER and is only around 40 mins flying time. Whether or not 3K would have gone there is a different story.

Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 97):
The QF Club and compensation issues are separate and, unhelpful as it is, that possibly is the downside of choosing a LCC.

Yup. We had an issue on a Qantas A380 out of HKG and had to go back to the gate. Flight was delayed until the morning so the kept the Qantas Club open for us until hotels were arranged. That's the advantage of flying on QF and not on JQ although I appreciate that out of PER there isn't a choice in the matter.

I'd lodge a complaint with QF as well. Without knowing your QFF status, if you're high enough and a Qantas Club Member that should help you get some compensation out of either them, as a good faith gesture, or out of Jetstar.

qf2220 · Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:46 am

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 96):
Unsurprisingly it didnt happen, which is probably fair enough, But were told "thats what happens when you fly jetstar",

QF staff are perhaps not the biggest fans of JQ after all!

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