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Aircellist
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FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:47 am

On Radio-Canada yesterday, there was an emission that discussed security in air transportation, particularly in the wake of the Germanwing crash.

Here is the link: http://ici.radio-canada.ca/emissions...roire_tout_ce_qu_on_dit/2014-2015/

(in French, only…)

One thing that dit attract my attention was that someone mentioned that FOs are now hired after they've had a number of hours on type, by the European and Asian LCCs. And that, for candidates to do their hours, some airlines will have pilots pay to fly in A32x or 73x right seat… With passengers in the back.

Is that true?

Pierre Jeanniot, former Air Canada CEO, stated that, in North America, as of yet, airlines still pay for their pilot's formation.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:08 am

Yes some airlines do do it. Even some relatively reputable airlines will have you pay for your cadet ship. Some LCC and such will get you to pay 40-50 thousand dollars for a year on type if you can believe it. The Air Asia 320 that crashed had a Pay to Fly guy in the right seat if memory serves correct.
 
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larshjort
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:13 am

The North America part may be true now but a couple of yearss ago Gulfstream International Airlines and Gulfstream Training Academy had a program where students paid for a 1900D typerating and 250 hours.

/Lars
 
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tb727
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:20 am

At a company I worked at in the past they had a few "pay to play" guys. One of them was in a rather famous hypoxia incident used around the world in ground schools to teach pilot about the effects of it. They paid to fly there because they wouldn't have been able to cut it the traditional way, no one would have ever hired them. That practice thankfully ended after only a couple paid to come in.
 
burnsie28
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:24 am

Didn't at one point WN used to charge it pilots for their 737 type rating?
 
Aircellist
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:36 am

… Thanks for the comments.

Does that mean that an airline could, somehow, be up and running with only left-seat pilots being paid, and on the contrary right-seat pilots paying to fly? Or would that be too far fetched?

… I thought it was only in the arts that we would have that kind of gigs… I am sorry if pilots also can be so poorly paid that they in fact end up paying to do their profession.
 
trnswrld
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:42 am

Man, apparently some pilots really are suckers. They will literally do anything to fly an airplane haha

[Edited 2015-04-05 18:42:40]
 
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tb727
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 4):
Didn't at one point WN used to charge it pilots for their 737 type rating?

There were varying levels of what they wanted. For a while you had to have a 737 type rating just to interview. Then you had "x" amount of time to get one once you were hired. I heard just this week they maybe dropped the requirement all together to buy your own. It costs about $6000 to go get a type on your own, you get a buddy to go with you then you can cut that down a little. There are a couple WN guys on here so they may be able to tell you the down low on all of it.

I applied there in '08 on the day I got my 1000th hour of PIC jet time(a requirement at the time) and again about a year ago but never did an interview so I'm not 100% sure.

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 5):
Does that mean that an airline could, somehow, be up and running with only left-seat pilots being paid, and on the contrary right-seat pilots paying to fly? Or would that be too far fetched?

It's possible on a small scale but I don't think you would ever see it, at least I hope not. Man there are some management teams out there that would love it!
 
INFINITI329
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting tb727 (Reply 7):
There were varying levels of what they wanted. For a while you had to have a 737 type rating just to interview. Then you had "x" amount of time to get one once you were hired. I heard just this week they maybe dropped the requirement all together to buy your own. It costs about $6000 to go get a type on your own, you get a buddy to go with you then you can cut that down a little. There are a couple WN guys on here so they may be able to tell you the down low on all of it.

I applied there in '08 on the day I got my 1000th hour of PIC jet time(a requirement at the time) and again about a year ago but never did an interview so I'm not 100% sure.

This hiring window that just passed was the first time WN didn't require a 737 type rating. It never made sense to me. I do believe bringing on FL's 717 pilots had something to do with it. I do not know what the training program was like before the acquisition., but with 717 pilots WN needed a from the ground up program to teach them the new frame.
 
Mir
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:54 am

It is absolutely common among the European LCCs to require pilots to pay for their own initial type rating.

And it's shameful. Fortunately that trend hasn't moved across the ocean (at least in large numbers - Gulfstream was one example, and there are a few small operators trying it still, but that's it).

-Mir
 
Okie
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
This hiring window that just passed was the first time WN didn't require a 737 type rating. It never made sense to me. I do believe bringing on FL's 717 pilots had something to do with it. I do not know what the training program was like before the acquisition., but with 717 pilots WN needed a from the ground up program to teach them the new frame

While I understand bringing in the FL pilots without a 737 ticket because of the acquisition, did this also include off the street new hires?

Okie
 
INFINITI329
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:48 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 10):
While I understand bringing in the FL pilots without a 737 ticket because of the acquisition, did this also include off the street new hires?

Yes, I thought it closed already but here you go no 737 type rating required

https://pilots-southwest.icims.com/jobs/9611/pilot---first-officer/job?hub=5&mobile=false&width=980&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-420&jun1offset=-420

[Edited 2015-04-05 20:50:45]
 
Sean-SAN-
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:23 am

Lion Air has a big pay-to-fly scheme and their safety record speaks for itself.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:16 am

Yep, that's been normal in Europe for many years. Small Planet has done it, Pegasus, Royal Air Maroc (which I believe made their own pilots go on strike in fear for their jobs) etc 500 hours line training maybe around 20,000 euro. After 500 hours, you'll get kicked out and they'll make room for the next unfortunate guy who feels he has no choice if he wants a chance in aviation. And after 500 hours on type, it's still difficult to find a real job or it used to be a few years ago. In wizzair they hire some guys without rating but then you sign up for a bonding and they deduct 1000 euro from your monthly salary meaning you have 2000 left before tax every month or less for the first 2-3 years.

So 100,000 euro for the initial training + 20,000 euro for the type rating and another 20,000 for the line training and pilots will end up with a debt that will take them the rest of their careers maybe to pay back. EU needs to do something so that at least the airlines in Eueope are not allowed to do this.

[Edited 2015-04-06 01:26:19]
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:21 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):

Not even in a lot of the premium carriers will they pay your rating any more. Nobody that I know from my school regardless of where they got a job were offered a type-rating. Everyone as far as I know had to invest in a rating on their own. Luckily I don't know of anyone who had to buy line training on top of that separately but some pilots in Europe do.

Btw in Ryanair you even have to pay for the interview yourself without any guarantees for a job.
 
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zkojq
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:30 am

A lot of carriers get newly selected first officers to cover part of the cost of a type rating and then reimbursed them once they're qualified to the line.

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 12):

Indeed. VietJet does similar I believe, though with a much better safety record thus far.
 
migair54
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:35 am

Many airlines have pay to fly schemes, many of them offer via a TRTO the type rating and 500 hours on the model you fly without salary, Lion Air is one of them, then after that time some stay some don´t. They call it Line Training scheme, some of my academy partners are in this airlines and some pay up to 50.000USD to fly a B737 or A320.

They have even an assesstment, so you can see how many they have ready to pay, Check the link, 85.000Euros for A320 line training+500hours on type with MSD (big cheaters, big scams in India) and 595 € for the screaning process.... Crazy people.

I have seen many of them doing it, they don´t want to understand that for them to get the job someone is being fired, then you get in the airline, do your 500 hours and then NEXT!!!!! another 85.000€.

I think in the USA is not allow by the FAA, that´s why they should do in the JAA also.

Some airlines I know for sure you pay for your training are, Ryanair, Wizzair, Swiftair, Vueling, Lion Air, Fastjet, Vietjet, Pegasus, Tunisair, Easyjet, Air Asia....

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 15):
A lot of carriers get newly selected first officers to cover part of the cost of a type rating and then reimbursed them once they're qualified to the line.

Many airlines they give you a training bond, for example 36.000 during 36 months pro rated, if you leave before 3 years you have to pay 1.000 USD per month earlier, but in this airlines you don´t pay anything if you stay. Qatar, Flydubai, Emirates I think they all do this for their non-type rated pilots.

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 12):
Lion Air has a big pay-to-fly scheme and their safety record speaks for itself.

Very big, MSD is one of the companies they use, they used to offer even Captain position and direct for B777, A320, B737, ATR, Q400....
http://www.msdaviation.com/
 
capri
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:51 am

Air Arabia Maroc does it for $55K, you get type rating for A320 and 500 hrs In the right seat
 
us330
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting trnswrld (Reply 6):
Man, apparently some pilots really are suckers. They will literally do anything to fly an airplane haha
Quoting Aircellist (Reply 5):
I am sorry if pilots also can be so poorly paid that they in fact end up paying to do their profession.

It's not just the airline industry where this applies. It's becoming increasingly common for lawyers for do this as well. Not necessarily "pay to practice" but do a lot of pro bono and volunteer work as a way of gaining experience if they aren't able to land a job out of law school.

In today's world, companies want experienced workers but many are cutting back their training programs because it's hard for them to pass that cost onto their customers/clients. How else is someone supposed to get hired?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 18):

It's spreading to more industries. It's also like that in the film industry and probably at least few others.
 
MVAair
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:26 pm

When people want something bad enough, there will be those who take advantage of them.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:28 pm

With competitors poaching trained and experienced pilots and strict local anti non-compete laws which always side with employee, airlines have no option other than asking recruits to pay for type-rating.
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Paying for a type rating up front is about the most idiotic thing a person can do. It's obscene. Becoming a pilot is an expensive and dangerous affair (from a financial point of view). One can easily acquire more debt that one can handle. That's the last thing we need is pilots with so much debt they can't focus on their jobs, but rather their financial woes.

I agree with a company having you sign a bond. Where I work, we have to sign a 2 year bond, but we don't paying anything up front. Not for the travel, not for the food, not for the hotel, not for the Type Rating. If we leave before the 24 months are up, we are required to pay back the remaining months.

Also holding back money from your pay should not be acceptable. If the airlines want to hire these experience pilots they should pay for their type rating.

It all goes back to the consumer who expects state of the art airplanes, experienced pilots, great in flight crew, lots of flight options and they want to pay 56 Euros to fly from Bucharest to London... Yeah okay...
 
yenne09
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 21):
airlines have no option other than asking recruits to pay for type-rating.

Maybe that is why many canadian pilots are going to Middle East carrier like Emirates.
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 23):
Maybe that is why many canadian pilots are going to Middle East carrier like Emirates.

Yes, I'm one of those pilots that is seriously considering going to the Middle East. Of course, I want to stay in my own country, but it's getting more and more difficult to provide for a family on a pilot salary.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 22):

We all agree that it is idiotic to pay the rating yourself, but life isn't that simple when you've already paid 100k upfront for your education. You basically have this choice: Pay for the rating and get the job or someone else will and your 100k investment will be lost and your dreams of becoming a pilot, burst. I'm also considering the ME now btw.
 
flymia
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 2):

The North America part may be true now but a couple of years ago Gulfstream International Airlines and Gulfstream Training Academy had a program where students paid for a 1900D typerating and 250 hours.

Yep. It was a very well known program. And a few high profile accidents had Gulfstream pilots in them. I did not think there was a big link but the Gulfstream flying was looked down upon a lot when it was up and running so many tied the connections.

For that academy you had to have 250hrs and a commercial I beleive, at least towards the end of that academy life. But of course they could not have pilots flying for "free" so after spending $20k or so on training you were guaranteed 250 hours SIC in a B1900D and were paid a full $8.00 per hour!

They then gave you an interview for Gulfstream and if they had open spots you could get a full $20,000 year job!

That was when pilots were desperate, now days the pay has not improved but the hiring has.
 
BravoOne
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:18 pm

Getting a type rating at EK and then leaving after a year or so and maybe 1000 hours as either SIC or PIC is questionable when looking for another position. Converting that type rating to an FAA or Canadian rating can be very cost prohibitive. Not simply a matter of exchanging it for another regulatory authority.
 
sierrakilo44
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:20 pm

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 12):

Lion Air has a big pay-to-fly scheme and their safety record speaks for itself.

Sorry, are you being sarcastic?
Flying a perfectly serviceable 737 into the water in DPS, numerous runway overruns, excursions and hull losses, routes revoked for flying illegally, a fatal accident in 2004 and being on the EU blacklist is not a safety record I'd say speaks for itself.

Quoting flymia (Reply 26):
And a few high profile accidents had Gulfstream pilots in them

The captain of the Colgan Q400 that crashed in Buffalo, NY in 2009 was one, I believe he even failed some checkrides at the academy.
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 25):
We all agree that it is idiotic to pay the rating yourself, but life isn't that simple when you've already paid 100k upfront for your education. You basically have this choice: Pay for the rating and get the job or someone else will and your 100k investment will be lost and your dreams of becoming a pilot, burst. I'm also considering the ME now btw.

The market varies by country. Europe is a bit different than North America and North America is a bit different than Asia or the Middle East. I have about 1600 hrs total time, including turboprops and jets, though very little PIC time (about 150 hrs). I don't have a chance in hell to fly an A320 or B737 with my time and no ATPL.

Most guys who fly these type of planes have at least ATPL, 3000 hrs TT and at least 500 multi pic turbine. In Europe you have guys straight out of flight school hop on the right seat of a B737. That's a lot of plane to handle at 200 hrs. I remember jumping from the B1900 to the Lear 35. It was an eye opening experience. Everything happened insanely fast.

Well back to the topic at hand. You're right about the fact that you would have to keep going in order to get that "dream job". I find it ridiculous that after 100K on flight school you have to fork out another 30-40K to get an A320 Type Rating.

I thought school was expensive here in Canada and I "only" paid $60,000 (Canadian) for my CPL, Multi & Group 1 IFR.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 29):

I have around 2300 hours total time. Don't you have something called PICUS for your ATPL upgrade? How else are you going to get your ATPL if you don't have 250 PIC(US) hours? Or does it work differently there?

I have 2100 hours on the A320 and I don't have my ATPL yet, but I'm going to apply for it soon.

Well I too find it ridiculous, but most people don't realise the realities of the modern day pilot career before it's too late if you will, when they are stuck with a huge debt.

[Edited 2015-04-06 07:37:15]
 
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longhauler
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 29):
Well back to the topic at hand. You're right about the fact that you would have to keep going in order to get that "dream job". I find it ridiculous that after 100K on flight school you have to fork out another 30-40K to get an A320 Type Rating.

As I am sure you have heard, there have been Canadian airlines in the past where the initial type rating cost was borne by the applicant. The most often noted was Jetsgo. Sadly, as the training bond was in the pilot applicant's name with the lending facility (a Canadian bank), when Jetsgo shut down, the pilot was still on the hook for what was left owing.

The "pilot shortage" I have been hearing about for the last 30 years, now appears to be looming (in Canada) and airlines are now starting to prepare for the push. Air Canada's recent agreement with Jazz, in my opinion, was a way to exclusively tap into a pool of experienced pilots.
 
Okie
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 11):
Yes, I thought it closed already but here you go no 737 type rating required

Obviously with WN's expansion, especially at DAL and international growth coming above previous FL routes then WN is obviously feeling the tightening of the pilot market.

Not necessarily a bad situation for pilots. 1000PIC is still a big hurdle.

Okie
 
OB1504
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:21 pm

Fortunately, with the impending pilot shortage in the United States, the days of pay-to-play seem to be coming to an end. A lot of regionals are offering several thousand dollar signing bonuses to new-hires.
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:01 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 30):
I have around 2300 hours total time. Don't you have something called PICUS for your ATPL upgrade? How else are you going to get your ATPL if you don't have 250 PIC(US) hours? Or does it work differently there?

We have PICUS in Canada but I only know of a handful of companies. Good luck with your ATPL. Having so much time on an A320 is gold. Going to the ME should be easier for you.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 31):

I heard of the JetsGo "extravaganza". I feel so bad for those pilots that had to do what they did. That's actually the reason I will never pay a type rating up fron, especially at a start up.

I hope this pilot shortage will benefit us. I'm looking forward to leave the arctic. I've been there for more than 3 years. AC would be fantastic but so would Jazz.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 34):
I heard of the JetsGo "extravaganza". I feel so bad for those pilots that had to do what they did. That's actually the reason I will never pay a type rating up fron, especially at a start up.

How's that story go?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 34):

Yes if that's what I really want. I'd prefer to stay home but there are not many job opportunities.
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 35):
How's that story go?

Basically, a Canadian start-up named JetsGo tried to compete against Westjet and Air Canada. They had MD-80s and Fokker 100s (I think). They made their pilots pay for their respective Type Ratings and when the company went bust (shortly after starting service) the pilots not only lost their jobs, but were on the hook to pay the banks for their respective Type Ratings. It was a very messy and nasty affair that left a lot of Canadian pilots disgusted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetsgo
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 36):
Yes if that's what I really want. I'd prefer to stay home but there are not many job opportunities.

You're already flying an A320. That's an opportunity few get to have. I take it you don't fly for SAS and may want something more "prestigious" or with better pay. (Sorry if that statement was uninformed. From out here, SAS seems like THE PLACE to work in Scandinavia. Am I wrong?)

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 33):
Fortunately, with the impending pilot shortage in the United States, the days of pay-to-play seem to be coming to an end. A lot of regionals are offering several thousand dollar signing bonuses to new-hires.

I live in Windsor, Ontario now, which is right across the border from Detroit. It takes me less than 45 mintes to get from my house to DTW. Working for a US carrier would be great for me, but even if I change my Canadian license to an FAA license, there's the "work visa" issue. I wonder if this pilot shortage is indeed true (though I think it should be more labeled as "Shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts") they may look outside US for experienced men and women to fill the seats that need it.
 
mandala499
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 1):
The Air Asia 320 that crashed had a Pay to Fly guy in the right seat if memory serves correct.

If I remember correctly, the FO was Pay Your Rating, not pay-to-fly. The airline initially refused to accept pay-to-fly... then they got pay-your-own rating, then pay-to-fly... but that was stopped in 2012 or 2013. Pay-to-fly is pay for your rating AND your first 250 or 500 hours. Pay Your Rating is simply self-sponsored.

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 12):
Lion Air has a big pay-to-fly scheme and their safety record speaks for itself.

Oh yes, to the extent that locals awaiting for their training had to wait for months because the guys under the pay-to-fly scheme got the priority in training. The sad story is, the money paid by pay-to-fly, didn't go into paying for locals to train. Pay-to-Fly (P2F) got so bad there every incident that happened, the FO were P2F. And the guys arranging it in Lion made so much money it peeved the owner off! Then the government stepped in requiring foreign new hires to have 250hrs on type before being accepted. Guess what? The P2F agents came up with schemes of "Nowhere to go after your first 250hrs? Get your next 250hrs in Indonesia"... Am like... WTH?

Am OK with Self-sponsored or Pay Your Rating... but P2F? Sorry... No no!
The problem with P2F is mainly the temptation to pass the bad apples just because they paid. I got some friends flying here who are good even though they came from P2F scheme. But I think they should have given him the job through simple self-sponsoring. That way, we can still filter the bad apples...

The P2F abuse is now causing problems in pilot recruitment again. Self Sponsored can't get in, most of the locals can't self sponsor because they've invested the money in the flying school, and the banks mostly don't want to lend for type rating. So, now, we have "get a loan from the bank with our guarantee" schemes...

The sad thing here is now, there is an airline who... for fresh CPL guys... "apply here and get your type rating for a 10 yr or 100k USD bond, then when you get captaincy, we'll bond you for another 50k or 10 yrs." Yes... it gets silly!
Too many bond jumpers here too, that's why.
 
B737900
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting capri (Reply 17):
Air Arabia Maroc does it for $55K, you get type rating for A320 and 500 hrs In the right seat

So does that mean the guy or gal in the left seat is flying and instructing?
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:31 am

Quoting vio (Reply 38):

What I have now is prestigious in my eyes as I'm not flying for an LCC but it's time limited, so I'll likely have to look for something else in a few months whether I want to or not.

I'd love to work for SAS at some stage, but they are rarely recruiting and last time they did, it was on the CRJ and 737, but never say never of course. However, working for SAS is far from what it used to be but that's the times we live in now. I guess it applies to all legacy carriers these days.

[Edited 2015-04-06 17:34:27]
 
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lightsaber
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting Sean-SAN- (Reply 12):

Lion Air has a big pay-to-fly scheme and their safety record speaks for itself.

Agreed. It amazes me that they're able to find enough qualified pilots with that scheme.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 28):
Flying a perfectly serviceable 737 into the water in DPS, numerous runway overruns, excursions and hull losses, routes revoked for flying illegally, a fatal accident in 2004 and being on the EU blacklist is not a safety record I'd say speaks for itself.

I think Lion Air's *lack* of safety does speak for itself. The program is obviously flawed.

Quoting us330 (Reply 18):
In today's world, companies want experienced workers but many are cutting back their training programs because it's hard for them to pass that cost onto their customers/clients. How else is someone supposed to get hired?

It has also been the post 2008 job market. Until there is fast growth again, the labor pool will be that way.

Quoting vio (Reply 38):
I wonder if this pilot shortage is indeed true (though I think it should be more labeled as "Shortage of pilots willing to work for peanuts") they may look outside US for experienced men and women to fill the seats that need it.

When the business jets no longer have 'pay to fly' copilots, then I'll believe in the pilot shortage.


Lightsaber
 
mandala499
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:06 am

Quoting B737900 (Reply 40):
So does that mean the guy or gal in the left seat is flying and instructing?

It's the same thing with ab-initio newhires... except that the newbie pays to get his first 250 or 500 hours.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 42):
I think Lion Air's *lack* of safety does speak for itself. The program is obviously flawed.

What I find "funny" is that during the days of active P2F recruitment... almost every single incident involved P2F pilots, and they were going at 1 incident every 1 - 2 months. Since they stopped ab-initio P2F, they've had almost no incidents. Shows you how bad things can go with P2F.
On the other hand, Citilink, was also another large P2F user, but no incidents. They simply limited the number of countries they took P2F from... unlike Lion... it just goes to show that excess greed means mishaps. And yes, Lion's P2F incidents largely involved P2Fs originating from a particular country (that other countries don't want to accept P2Fs from).
And Citilink retains a lot of the P2Fs once their P2Fs hours were over. Lion, well, no... only a few stay... coz they realize the P2Fs they accepted were largely "idiots with licenses" (not my term, but this someone in Lion used that term).
 
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Aesma
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:12 am

Quoting Aircellist (Thread starter):
Pierre Jeanniot, former Air Canada CEO, stated that, in North America, as of yet, airlines still pay for their pilot's formation.

That's extremely misleading, since they don't hire pilots out of school like in Europe. Here you can be hired with 0 flight hour, in NA it's 1500, how do you get there without money ?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 44):
Here you can be hired with 0 flight hour, in NA it's 1500, how do you get there without money ?

By dropping skydivers, instructing on Cessnas, doing crop dusting, flying mail to remote places in piston twins etc..
All GA jobs which almost don't exist in Europe.
I have a mechanic, who flies for a parachuting club in his off time, just to build hours, but he won't get paid for it.

In my profession you usually start as an apprentice, doing a 3-4 year apprenticeship. In Germany you'll get paid a pocket money during this time, but no real salary. The idea behind it is more to teach the apprentice that he is earning something, so now he has to attend timekeeping and discipline.
After passsing your journeyman's exams you work as an unlicenced mechanic for several years, doing all the nitty gritty dirty jobs and gaining experience, but your work needs to be certified and inspected by a licenced engineer.
After several years of this you go to train for the basic licence exams, if you are good, you can do it in self study (and take the exams at an EASA Part 147 school as an external student), but most go for a training course at an EASA Part 147 school, which takes between 6 months and a full year. Depending on the company they are working for, they either get paid during this time or they take their annual leave together with unpaid leave, but generally the basic licence is considered to be your own business.
After passing the basic licence exams you still need a type rating under the EASA system. These courses take about 3 months, but usually they get paid by the employer (who will also cover hotel expenses and keep on paying your salary), unless you are a freelancer (contractor). In this case you'll have to cover everything yourself.
In Germany you usualy get bonded after you passed the course. As per German law thecompany can bond you for up to two years for a three months course, but the amount you have to pay back decreases by 1/24 every month you have worked your bond off. E.g. if you owe them 24.000 Euros right after finishing the course (a realistic amount, if I look back my past employers have invested about 150.000 Euros into my training), after one year it will only be 12.000 Euros and after one year and 9 months, only 3000 Euros.

Jan
 
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Vio
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:03 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 41):
I'd love to work for SAS at some stage, but they are rarely recruiting and last time they did, it was on the CRJ and 737, but never say never of course. However, working for SAS is far from what it used to be but that's the times we live in now. I guess it applies to all legacy carriers these days.

Good luck with your future goals, man. Maybe I'll run into you one day at some ME carrier. I hope you get where you need to be! I'm sure you'll do fine. You're already ages ahead of most of us. Stay healthy and study hard  The rest will come.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 44):
That's extremely misleading, since they don't hire pilots out of school like in Europe. Here you can be hired with 0 flight hour, in NA it's 1500, how do you get there without money ?
Quoting md11engineer (Reply 45):
By dropping skydivers, instructing on Cessnas, doing crop dusting, flying mail to remote places in piston twins etc..
All GA jobs which almost don't exist in Europe

Good questIon Aesma. md11engineer is right, but there are more choices. Unlike Europe, Canada is very sparsely populated. The majority of Canadians live in Southern Canada within 300km of the US border. There are a lot of small communities in northern Canada and the Arctic. Most of these communities are only accessible by air, so every small hamlet has some sort of landing strip. As you can imagine, they are not equipped to accommodate large jets (not that there is demand), so small turboprops are the lifeline to these places.

A lot of Canadian pilots, such as myself, start up and work up North, flying anything from small single engine pistons, floats, air ambulance, small commuter turboprops, etc. Out of flight school, I had about 220 hrs and my first job was working "ramp" in Winnipeg. For one year, I loaded planes, towed them, cleaned them and did pretty much everything to make sure they turned around in time. After a year on the ground, I was offered a First Officer position on the King Air 200, flying medivacs in the Canadian Arctic. After about a year I moved to the B1900C flying scheduled flights and charters, again throughout the Arctic. In December last year I was offered a job as a co-pilot on the Learjet 35.

So you see, that's pretty much how we build up our time in Canada. It's not easy, but the advantage is that we get some amazing flight experience. We fly in some of the world's most inhospitable weather, to some of the world's most remote places. The landing strips are mostly compact gravel or snow (in the winter). The navigation equipment at these airports are as basic as they get. Mostly have only NDB approaches or RNAV (which makes things a lot easier).

Where Canada may lag behind in "theoretical studies", I think it makes up for it in experience. The 14 ATPL exams in Europe are pretty challenging compared to the Canadian ATPL exams, but in my own opinion experience speaks more than "book knowledge". You can't learn to fly from a book and a young graduate from a European flight school (say Oxford Aviation Academy) is still a 200 hr guy (or girl) regardless of how you look at it. When a Canadian pilot hops for the first time on the right seat of an A320, that pilot has about 3000 hrs total time, an ATPL and at least 500 hrs as captain on some sort of turbo-prop.

I'm sure in the USA it's very similar, especially in Alaska. The US has the world's largest corporate aviation market, so flying there can be a good start. I also forgot to mention flight instructing, but that type of flying is a bit different than actually being a line pilot. It requires a different set of skills and most operators in Canada don't see too much value in flight instructors. (I don't agree with it, but that's the way it is). I personally would've loved to be a career flight instructor , but the said truth is that the pay is not something one can raise a family on. I used to teach before I started flying and I miss being in the classroom.

Europe does have some market for corporate / small commuters, but it's nothing compared to North America. That's why a lot of European pilots end up flying in Indonesia, etc.
 
benjjk
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting vio (Reply 46):
Good questIon Aesma. md11engineer is right, but there are more choices. Unlike Europe, Canada is very sparsely populated. The majority of Canadians live in Southern Canada within 300km of the US border. There are a lot of small communities in northern Canada and the Arctic. Most of these communities are only accessible by air, so every small hamlet has some sort of landing strip. As you can imagine, they are not equipped to accommodate large jets (not that there is demand), so small turboprops are the lifeline to these places.

This sounds very much like the Australian experience too... for a newly qualified, low-time pilot here the best bet is probably to live in the desert for a few years, flying to remote communities. A friend of mine took this route and within a few years he got a job with a regional airline. But it was tough on his relationships and well-being - not everyone can handle packing up and moving to a place that is literally thousands of kilometres from anywhere. If low-time pilots want to stay closer to home they pretty much need to get an instructor rating and join the queue of unemployed pilots until you get a lucky break.

Now you could say that those passionate enough to take the plunge into this career and make sacrifices will be rewarded, and yes in a sense that is true. But it is this same determination that leads people to accept a job that makes them pay to fly.

It's no secret that to be a safe pilot you need balance in your life. If you completely disregard your mental well-being just so you can fly you're in trouble. If you completely disregard your financial well-being just so you can fly you're in trouble. And airlines should not be encouraging this.

I support a 3 or 5 year bond in exchange for company-funded training. I am quite uneasy at the prospect of paying for your own type rating. And I am completely opposed to the pay to fly concept.
 
Passedv1
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:17 pm

First off there is a big difference in my opinion between paying for your type (I.e southwest) and paying for your training even if the training eventually leads to your type. The Type Rating stays with you forever. Southwest did not mandate that you get your type from any particular place. The airline didn't pay for your commercial-multi or your college degree either... I don't see much of a difference.

In the SWA scheme you end up with a career. SWA still puts you through its own training at its own expense. The purpose of the type rating requirement was an indicator of your desire to work for SWA for the recruiters. I would bet that it still is.

The pay for training scheme is disgusting, not safe, and shouldn't be allowed. In the SWA or an ab-initio scheme, the incentive for he airline is to find the most qualified candidates for the job. They don't make any money off the FO's. Pay-to-fly incentivises the airline to take anybody who has the money.

I always get slammed for this but this is yet another reason that me and my family will never fly on the majority of non-US airlines and several of the U.S. regionals.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: FOs Paying To Fly… For Real?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting vio (Reply 46):
Europe does have some market for corporate / small commuters, but it's nothing compared to North America. That's why a lot of European pilots end up flying in Indonesia, etc.

Here in Europe the public perception of GA is "toys for rich people". The only exception in Germany might be the island hoppers on the North Sea coast. A friend started his career after being an external student at LH's flying school with flying BN Islanders to the North Sea Islands.

Jan

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