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b747400erf
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:35 pm

747's and 777's are used by European carriers to fly to North America, so this topic makes no sense to me. In the past I have questioned how an airline like QR can afford to send their 787's on 5 hour routes but that is a different argument.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting united319 (Thread starter):

But then I see carriers flying it on routes that don't make sense to me (Capacity and Range wise) like:

BOG-LIM
LHR-JFK
IAH-LHR
LAX-NRT
MEX-JFK
DEL-DXB
DOH-BLR
SCL-EZE
LHR-EWR

I guess I'm not clear on the OP's original point. Just because an airplane can fly 8000 miles, does it mean it must? What mechanism says that it makes no sense for a 787 to fly LAX-NRT or IAH-LHR? If it's efficient over 7000 miles, why isn't it efficient for 5000 miles?

AS flies 737-800s SEA-KOA. Does that mean it makes no sense to also fly them SEA-SJC?
 
pjack
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 4):
Quoting chrisnh (Reply 4):
I think one of the more curious 'short' routes is BOS-LHR with the 787-9. We like seeing it at Logan and a favorite for spotters, but goes against the grain you speak of

As the schedule stands at the moment the is a window for the relatively short flight over to BOS, I will be taking this flight home after my east coast holiday in a few weeks.
 
karadion
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 46):

400 787 will be about next year in April 2016.   400 A350's on the other hand will be.....Mid-2019?
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:23 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 50):
747's and 777's are used by European carriers to fly to North America, so this topic makes no sense to me. In the past I have questioned how an airline like QR can afford to send their 787's on 5 hour routes but that is a different argument.

I agree, carriers will use the equipment on no matter the rte that will yield the best profits for the time. Widebody medium to long range aircraft have been used since the 70's on rte's they really weren't designed for and will continue to!
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
AM744
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 39):
There is no ADD - IAD, its FCO - IAD
ET flies IAD - ADD

Exactly. Same thing for AM. There's no MEX-NRT, it's TIJ-NRT. NRT-MEX is nonstop, though.
Both ADD and MEX are hot and high airports.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:45 pm

Will more ULH's routes open up if fuel stays at current levels for say, 5 years? I would think many airlines are not over being burned by their recent experiments w ULH routes.
 
reality
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:16 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 55):
Both ADD and MEX are hot and high airpor

I understand that MEX is high at 7,343' (2,238 m). But is it really hot? Whenever I'm there it is usually in the 70s, maybe low 80s (20 - 27 C). Maybe that's considered hot for airports at that altitude?
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 55):

Exactly. Same thing for AM. There's no MEX-NRT, it's TIJ-NRT

I think it's MEX-MTY-NRT now, not TIJ. It used to be TIJ.

That would be an interesting thread in itself. Routes that have a stop in one direction only due to performance issues. Some that come to mind are:

The aforementioned AM and ET (airport altitude).

NW SEA-OGG, but OGG-KOA-SEA (runway length)
UA ORD-OGG, but OGG-KOA-SEA

QF SYD-DFW, but DFW-BNE-SYD (winds)

I'm sure there have been some like this about of JNB too. I think the LCY flights to the US stopped at SNN westbound only due to LCY.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:27 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 45):
While many airlines are using 787-8 to replace A340 and 767 with some new flights like JAL to Boston. More ULH will happen when the 787-9 becomes more common, United's flight from LAX to MEL. Air Canada is the first airline showing us how they plan to us the 787-9 to Dubai and India nonstop from Toronto. AC is also replacing 777 on their YYZ to Haneda route but who knows AC could continue to surprise us with a route to say Johannesburg.

Bingo. The 787 is still a relatively new airframe and it would make sense that carriers would first use the planes to replace older aircraft on existing routes for a variety of reasons, including upgrade and/or standardization of inflight product on key routes. I think as we see the fleets fill out we will see less conventional long-haul routes, which I think is what the original question was getting at.
 
BiggerJetsPlz
Posts: 439
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 59):
QF SYD-DFW, but DFW-BNE-SYD (winds)

That was only with the 744ER. The A380 has the legs to do both ways non-stop now, at least with some seats blocked off, of course.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:32 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 11):
The 787 is a modern and efficient 767, with a bit more space and range added, or it's a more modern and efficient 777 with a bit less space.

Said early and well. That summarizes the plane's role in the global airline networks. As there is bypass, the 787 allows routes to be kept as passengers find more efficient ways to avoid 'bridging' (double hubbing), right sizing, more frequency, and a few more routes. Or... more seats for ex-767 routes.

We'll see more long haul. But ULH will remain the providence of the 77W/778/779 and A380. The reality is that operators are flying with more payload (e.g., 9 across and belly freight) than the quoted ranges. Nothing wrong with more yield... that is good enough.

Quoting 747megatop (Reply 9):
Interesting flightglobal analysis on Boeing 787 route network

Well worth reading.

Quoting glbltrvlr (Reply 10):
Article is behind a paywall - can you summarize?

The 787 is mostly a 763ER or 77E replacement, but it is opening up some new long haul.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 44):
BTW - on the "becoming more and more common" theme, as my flight at LHR taxied out yesterday there were three 787s in a line on the taxiway behind us (BA to CTU, VS to EWR and RJ to AMM) so they are already becoming pretty commonplace.

Wow... how the quantity in service has notably changed in the last 12 to 15 months.

Quoting Karadion (Reply 53):
400 787 will be about next year in April 2016.   400 A350's on the other hand will be.....Mid-2019?

Early on I noted that once that it would take 400+ 787s and A350s in service to see their impact on global air travel. We're almost there. I think we'll see a much more marked impact on available service a year from now.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 40):
A 789 with the same payload and flight time as a 77E burns >21% less fuel.

Which is important for keeping routes viable or launching new ones. But that doesn't make ULH necessarily viable. IMHO, ULH will demand more cargo and other payload which will favor other airframes than the 'glider' 787 at extreame ranges.

Ligthsaber
7 months without TV. The best decision of my life.
 
astuteman
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 53):
400 787 will be about next year in April 2016. 400 A350's on the other hand will be.....Mid-2019?

It should be around then - it's about the same time after EIS

Rgds
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:59 pm

What kind of subsidy would be required for third tier airports to offer daily or 3/4 times a week service to Asia and Europe. As an example I could see Spokane greatly benefitting as a city and region if it had such service.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 58):
UA ORD-OGG, but OGG-KOA-SEA

I think you meant OGG-KOA-ORD ? I think that was in the old days. OGG-ORD eastbound is flown nonstop these days, so I'm guessing the 777 was sufficient to over-come the runway issue.
 
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Polot
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:45 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 63):
What kind of subsidy would be required for third tier airports to offer daily or 3/4 times a week service to Asia and Europe. As an example I could see Spokane greatly benefitting as a city and region if it had such service.

They would have to pay for essentially all the airline's costs associated with the route + more to ensure that the airline is making a modest profit off the route. If a market like Spokane can't even get year round service to points in the other side of the country then it has no hope for intercontinental service.
 
frmrCapCadet
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Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:31 pm

Hardly! You seem to be assuming that there would be no revenue at all.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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Polot
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting frmrcapcadet (Reply 66):
Hardly! You seem to be assuming that there would be no revenue at all.

I was saying what the airport/city/whatever has to offer just to attract the service. No airline is going to be interested in flying transpacific to a tertiary city (and honestly I think calling Spokane even a tertiary city is generous at best) without a 100% guarantee that they will make money. Any revenue they make would just be gravy.
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 13976
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 47):
just look at the total sales figures for the two specialist ULH planes (A345 & 77L). ULH is a niche market at best.

A big part of that is on the aircraft themselves though, they're just too specialized.

The A345, with its excessive deadweight, is absolutely worthless if you're not flying it ULH; the fact that almost no major carrier has decided to keep it (even after having already sunk the acquisition cost) is testament to that.

The 77L isn't doing much better, though at least major airlines (DL, EK, AC, etc) have been able to justify keeping them as high-MTOW haulers, when they're not doing the few ULHs that they still operate.

That sad truth is, that just about ANY route that the 77W can do, which is nearly all extant routes in the world, it can do so more efficiently than the specialists. Death knell.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
motif1
Posts: 281
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RE: Why Are There Not More 787's Doing U.L.H.routes?

Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:59 pm

Try this link for the Flightglobal article. It goes through google first ...
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...VffkdvUzPOPQ&bvm=bv.90237346,d.cWc
Not only is this incomprehensible but the ink is ugly and the paper is from the wrong kind of tree

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