BDL, State Of CT To "Subsidize" Tatl Flight

SCHATC422 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:28 am

Governor Dannel Malloy of the State of Connecticut is setting aside $5m to subsidize a transatlantic flight, and mentioned is EI to DUB.

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/arti...150406/PRINTEDITION/304029923/1002

Any thoughts on this? Could EI to DUB be realistic or could BDL see someone like Condor to FRA, DL to LHR (slot dependent) or someone like LH?

-MB@BDL

[Edited 2015-04-06 19:42:26]

[Edited 2015-04-06 19:42:40]

USAirALB · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:37 am

I'm confused as to why CT turned down DL's offer of BDL-CDG a couple of years back.

SCHATC422 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 1):

They did? I had no clue they even offered BDL a CDG flight... must be a bunch of amateurs. If I was CAA, I'd take any international flight offered to me at this point to compete with PVD getting Condor and TACV....

LAX772LR · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:54 am

From an article that makes claims like:

Quote:
Aer Lingus has direct flights from Dublin to Boston, Mass., Burlington, Vt., and Portland, Maine

....I'd take just about anything they say with a grain o' salt.

33lspotter · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting SCHATC422 (Thread starter):
Any thoughts on this? Could EI to DUB be realistic or could BDL see someone like Condor to FRA, DL to LHR (slot dependent) or someone like LH?

Was just pondering this last week.

"CAA also is working with members of the MetroHartford Alliance to see if any Greater Hartford businesses would be willing to provide money for Aer Lingus to operate the Dublin nonstop, Griebel said." If Hartford could get one of the insurance giants to support the route in the manner that GlaxoSmithKline utilizes AA's RDU-LHR service, it would be a huge feather in BDL's cap.

EI to DUB seems realistic. I don't know that a route such as DL to LHR would work, but Aer Lingus could work, although I'm not aware of any major businesses with major offices in Dublin and Hartford (connectivity would probably be key.) Perhaps they could operate a daily 752 that they are leasing?

MAH4546 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:15 am

An AA 75L to Heathrow is really the only shot at this working.

CairnterriAIR · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:20 am

BA operating a 787 to LHR would most likely do well. The insurance connection as well as connections through Europe. People do not quite fathom how challenging it is to drive to BOS or JFK from the greater Hartford area at times. Dublin would most likely do well also, especially due to the pre-clearance and time savings. The AMS flight was drawing passengers, just the timing was bad and the yields dropped due to the recession. Plus it was not exactly marketed the best either.

MVAair · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:52 am

BDL should be able to support European service. Your options are drive to BOS or back track to EWR.

PWMRamper · Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:03 am

NW had BDL-AMS at least seasonally.

I wouldn't be stunned to see that or CDG out of BDL.

You could do a 752 easily from BDL I'd think. They do it from PHL and PIT to CDG in the summers.

FlyingSicilian · Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:28 am

LHR or bust with DL, BA, or AA .

DUB would not be as useful IMO

RWA380 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:30 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
LHR or bust with DL, BA, or AA .

The question really is, would any of these carriers be willing to use a peak, time period slot for an unknown BDL flight?

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 9):
DUB would not be as useful IMO

I agree from a customer stand point there are few places that are better to have a direct connection to than LHR, although as I raised the question above, is the slot at LHR worth an un tested route? Where BDL may be able to attract another carrier that has experience running on smaller margins, while the TATL market is developed from BDL.

IMO, BDL is a great place for a European ULCC to land serving the NE part of the USA. The 737-MAX or 321Neo will be great planes for the emerging TATL markets.

GCT64 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:27 am

Like almost all TATL markets, LON (LHR) must have the highest number of O&D pax from BDL. BA has no shortage of slots at LHR (especially with the likely return of the Little Red slots soon).

Consequently, I believe the logical answer is a BA 788 LHR-BDL but BA may well have more lucrative uses of these aircraft.

commavia · Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 5):
An AA 75L to Heathrow is really the only shot at this working.

I agree that an AA 757 to LHR or Delta 757 to CDG are the only realistic prospects.

RL757PVD · Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:47 am

For BDL to have a sucessful TAT'L flight I think you would need to meet BOTH of these critiera:

1) Direct and legit business connection... not "ohh we have an office there" but rather "we send 20+ people per week back and forth"

2) Airline or alliance with at least 15-20% market share at BDL... when NW did AMS, NW had a rather small presence at BDL, now that its DL I would think it could stand a higher chance of success.

EI-DUB concerns be because the key business connection would be RBS which would rely on the Stamford folks using BDL over JFK. Plus from a non-business connection, im not sure that BDL has the ethnic connection that places like BOS has. The only thing EI does have going for it, is the 757. Star Alliance is also probably the weakest alliance at BDL, with UA having bludgeoned their service at mid sized airports (I think BDL is only 1-2x mainline for UA now).

If it wasnt for slots, AA 757 to LHR would be a no brainer, otherwise perhaps 3rd times a charm for AMS.

S75752 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:01 pm

I think that if not a 757 due to declining numbers, then a 321LR by whomever orders it, or a 737 MAX could make LHR for sure.

yenne09 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:28 pm

If it is with a B737Max does it imlies a tech stop? I remember being at Hamilton (YHM) airport in the summer of 2008
while I saw a Globespan B737-800. I am almost sure that they had to make a tech stop somewhere. Bangor should have
good yields considering the insurance company concentration there?

jetblueguy22 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 6):
People do not quite fathom how challenging it is to drive to BOS or JFK from the greater Hartford area at times

It really isn't that hard. JFK is a bit easier actually. But the question becomes are people willing to pay a big premium to avoid that drive?

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 6):
Dublin would most likely do well also, especially due to the pre-clearance and time savings

It's six of one, half dozen of another in regards to entry. It would be the only regular international visitor to BDL so you don't have to worry about long lines at immigration.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 6):
The AMS flight was drawing passengers, just the timing was bad and the yields dropped due to the recession.

The timing was normal for a European flight. It left at 530. If you work in Hartford you close up at 330, and drive to BDL.

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Reply 6):
Plus it was not exactly marketed the best either.

It was actually marketed pretty well. They had billboards around the state (I even saw one by the mix master in Waterbury), they invited all of their elites to a cocktail party (my stepdad attended, still have the commemorative coin), and they basically started the flight with UTC's urging.

Quoting MVAair (Reply 7):
Your options are drive to BOS or back track to EWR.

Or go to JFK. Where you can get 18 flights a day to LHR.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
IMO, BDL is a great place for a European ULCC to land serving the NE part of the USA.

This is the only option I see long term viability for BDL international. A Ryanair or someone along those lines advertising Hartford as NYC/Boston.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
NW had a rather small presence at BDL, now that its DL I would think it could stand a higher chance of success.

BDL was in NW's top 5 for WorldPerks elite. Getting an upgrade was pretty tough on NW out of BDL even in 2008.

What happens when the money runs out?
Pat

tom11 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:43 pm

I think that, as many have mentioned, LHR or CDG on a 757 would make the most sense. I'm not sure if spending 5mil on service to Dublin is worth it. CDG and LHR will have a much higher O&D market, which in the end, will be what makes a break this TATL route.

It will be interesting to see how PVD fares with it's new service to FRA -- which I don't think will do very well. If they can support that, perhaps it's something BDL should look into trying. The BDL and PVD market are certainly different -- but perhaps they are close enough to let PVD be the guinea pig here.

MVAair · Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:46 pm

Sorry I meant fly to EWR. Are there flights from JFK to BDL?

roseflyer · Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:53 pm

I wonder if they could get Icelandair?

Their best bet is attracting someone with a 757 transatlantic operation. I don't think they'll be able to fill an A330 to DUB. An A319 is not going to make the westbound crossing very easily, but if they are willing to deal with fuel stops, it could happen.

RL757PVD · Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 17):
It will be interesting to see how PVD fares with it's new service to FRA -- which I don't think will do very well.

I'm hearing that booking trends are exceeding expectations

Quoting tom11 (Reply 17):
If they can support that, perhaps it's something BDL should look into trying

For an airline like Condor, its more leisure oriented which is something PVD can offer more of (Boston, Cape Cod, Newport, Beaches.

BDL offers practically nothing for a leisure destination perspective, so focusing on the business traveler makes more sense for them.

tom11 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:21 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 20):
For an airline like Condor, its more leisure oriented which is something PVD can offer more of (Boston, Cape Cod, Newport, Beaches.

BDL offers practically nothing for a leisure destination perspective, so focusing on the business traveler makes more sense for them.

I'm thinking that the traffic is going to be mostly PVD oriented. If someone wants to go to BOS on a vacation, they really aren't going to fly into PVD.

I agree -- BDL really isn't a large leisure destination, thus why something like LHR or CDG would work far better than Dublin. Even FRA would work better.

RL757PVD · Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 21):
I'm thinking that the traffic is going to be mostly PVD oriented. If someone wants to go to BOS on a vacation, they really aren't going to fly into PVD.

Fares are running $500+ less than BOS fares for the peak summer season and J fares are had for about $2000 RT, so its an affordable alternative. Not to mention the $200 you will save by parking at PVD over BOS for the week.

I agree that PVD is not in place of BOS, but the PVD catchment area is pretty much one stop shopping for the best what a New England summer has to offer outside of the mountains (and Europe has Switzerland for that).

jetblueguy22 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting MVAair (Reply 18):
Are there flights from JFK to BDL?

There was a once daily CRJ, but I'm pretty sure it's been gone for a couple of years now.
Pat

Cipango · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:23 pm

Quoting 33lspotter (Reply 4):
Perhaps they could operate a daily 752 that they are leasing?

They only have 3 and they serve specific routes that an A330 is too big for already...

Quoting 33lspotter (Reply 4):
EI to DUB seems realistic. I don't know that a route such as DL to LHR would work, but Aer Lingus could work,

I am Irish and I back EI 100% but I don't think they are the airline for BDL. If LHR wouldn't work for BDL then DUB definitely won't. In most cases if a route wouldn't work from London then it wouldn't work from Dublin.

33lspotter · Tue Apr 07, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 13):
1) Direct and legit business connection... not "ohh we have an office there" but rather "we send 20+ people per week back and forth"

I think this is the most important factor. As we said, people aren't going to Hartford for the scenery or leisure...it would be up to businesses to prove that they can (and would) provide the pax consistently going back-and-forth—regardless of where it is.

eaglepower83 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:25 pm

Pratt folks were doing a lot of Ireland trips when I was there. But they were forced to go out of BOS or NYC.
I don't know if those trips are still a thing, but that would've been great, leaving right from BDL.

tom11 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting 33lspotter (Reply 25):
I think this is the most important factor. As we said, people aren't going to Hartford for the scenery or leisure...it would be up to businesses to prove that they can (and would) provide the pax consistently going back-and-forth—regardless of where it is.

Right -- but I think a lot of people from Hartford would be going to London/Europe for leisure -- so there is leisure traffic one way.

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 22):

I agree that PVD is not in place of BOS, but the PVD catchment area is pretty much one stop shopping for the best what a New England summer has to offer outside of the mountains (and Europe has Switzerland for that).

I don't know too many people who come over to experience a "New England Summer". If they're coming over they want to see Boston/NYC, etc. Again -- I think this is really targeted for people in metro PVD looking to go overseas on vacation, for business, etc.

RL757PVD · Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:47 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 27):
I don't know too many people who come over to experience a "New England Summer". If they're coming over they want to see Boston/NYC, etc. Again -- I think this is really targeted for people in metro PVD looking to go overseas on vacation, for business, etc.

Its definitely both, and the ability to have traffic in both directions will make it more successful.

Keep in mind too that the flight times work well with the MBTA schedules, meaning they can save $500 per person and still be in downtown Boston with a 1 hour $12 train ride, and its nothing they aren't already used to.

Quoting EaglePower83 (Reply 26):

Pratt folks were doing a lot of Ireland trips when I was there. But they were forced to go out of BOS or NYC.
I don't know if those trips are still a thing, but that would've been great, leaving right from BDL.

That's the kind of business it is going to take to have a chance, i'd be curious what the connection is.

MVAair · Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 20):
BDL offers practically nothing for a leisure destination perspective, so focusing on the business traveler makes more sense for them.

I agree that BDL is a different market than PVD (which is more likely inbound) but BDL has over one million people within probably a 30 minute drive. BDL should provide good outbound traffic.

Flighty · Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:56 pm

Dublin is primarily a tourist market. The idea of BDL-DUB is insane. Would have a load factor of 10%.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 5):
An AA 75L to Heathrow is really the only shot at this working.

keerect. AMS or CDG would have too small a local market and could not quite make it.

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:19 pm

$5 million to attract service that will end in a year, but they can't fix the door on the gate 3 jetway so I don't have to kick it open 12 times a day. Thanks CAA.

[Edited 2015-04-07 11:25:31]

SANFan · Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 31):
$5 million to attract service that will end in a year, but they can't fix the door on the gate 3 jetway so I don't have to kick it open 12 times a day.

Not only things at the airport such as you point out, but I wonder how the citizens of CT feel about the use of $5M bucks that, guessing here, might be better spent on other things in the state that would undoubtedly benefit more people?

bb

PM · Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:57 pm

"Subsidize"? SUBSIDIZE?? Distort the invisible hand of the free market???!

Isn't that what OTHERS do??

Confused.

jc2354 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:25 pm

Virgin America is making plans for new Hawaii service with the new A320 deliveries this fall/winter. With that in mind, if I were JetBlue and had deliveries similar to Virgin America, I would be all over the subsidy being offered. They would probably not be able to get/borrow/purchase a slot for LHR, but there is always Gatwick, Stanstead, or Luton. If they were to fly Hartford-Dublin-Paris, would they be allowed to carry passengers on the Dublin-Paris route? Slap a row or two of Mint on the plane, and off they go. Also, they have a reasonable presence in Hartford, maybe they could connect passengers, as well as the O/D. If anyone could fly Hartford-Europe at a profit, it would be Jet Blue.

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 34):
it would be Jet Blue.

I wish. But it's not going to happen. For many reasons.

tom11 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Dublin is primarily a tourist market. The idea of BDL-DUB is insane. Would have a load factor of 10%.

I agree. I think that spending the $5 million on a more lucrative route like CDG or LHR would make more sense.

jetblueguy22 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:42 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 27):
Right -- but I think a lot of people from Hartford would be going to London/Europe for leisure -- so there is leisure traffic one way.

Leisure doesn't pay the bills though. It's usually pretty low yielding.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 32):
Not only things at the airport such as you point out, but I wonder how the citizens of CT feel about the use of $5M bucks that, guessing here, might be better spent on other things in the state that would undoubtedly benefit more people?

They should use it to pay down debt. But they won't, because a shiny European airline at BDL is much cooler.

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 34):
If anyone could fly Hartford-Europe at a profit, it would be Jet Blue.

If they start it from anywhere it will be JFK.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 36):
I think that spending the $5 million on a more lucrative route like CDG or LHR would make more sense.

If the market was lucrative there would already be service.

I think if BDL gets service they should be thrilled to just have it. Icelandair is probably about perfect for them. Would I love BA to LHR? Yep. Do I think they'll get it? Nope. But hey, I've been wrong before.
Pat

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 37):

If they start it from anywhere it will be JFK.

Bingo.

The logistics required at BDL for B6 to start service makes it an instant non starter.

jc2354 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 37):
If they start it from anywhere it will be JFK.

But, JFK isn't waiving $5 million in their face!

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 38):
The logistics required at BDL for B6 to start service makes it an instant non starter.

Not to argue or disagree, but rather a question. What logistics? They have a ticket counter, gates, tugs, baggage carts, employees. For me, it seems all they would need a an employee with experience in international operations, to help/teach the local employees, and maybe maintenance,

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 39):
Not to argue or disagree, but rather a question. What logistics?

Where to begin...

Staff:
-you'd have to train/certify all the ground ops people for customs/international flights (as only our supervisors are trained atm) (time and $$)
-you'd need more staff both upstairs and outside (time and $$)
-you'd have to create new bids for staff (time)
-And then if the flight does go tits up (which it will) what do you do with all those staff?

Equipment:
-more gse. BDL is equipped for dual ops only. ($$$)
-And then if the flight does go tits up, what do you do with all that new GSE?

Logistics:
-Provisioning, we don't do it here. So now we either need to cater it ourselves, subcontract it out for two flights a day, or cater it in MCO or FLL and cart it around all day. And I've never checked what it costs to provision an international flight, but its probably not cheap ($$$)
-International trash handling ($$$)
-Getting passengers from the international building to the "main" terminal if they're transferring to other flights (they aren't connected and the road between the two is one way so you have to loop them around via a bus or a nice walk on an unsidewalked road.
-Staffing both terminals (see above about staff)
-The time of towing a plane to/from the international terminal. It takes about 15-20 minutes to tow from the remote stand and thats about 150 yards away. Probably double that to go across the field.

There are probably many more reasons but these are just the basic ones.

[Edited 2015-04-07 14:37:12]

jetblueguy22 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:44 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 39):
But, JFK isn't waiving $5 million in their face!

You're right. But they can start flying from an airport with:
1)A proven track record of success on flights across the pond.
2)A bigger market
3)The location of a huge percentage of their FF base.
4)A Pilot base.
5)A Maintenance Base
6)Proper Customs and Immigration Facilities

The jetBlue CEO probably caught the story while eating lunch and flipped to the sports page to see the Yankees box score yesterday. If they're going to start something they are going to do it at their hub. When they start Euro service it will be from BOS or JFK. That doesn't mean they can't start service from BDL. But we're talking about an airline that has service to 4 airports from BDL. There are spokes in their network bigger than BDL that has a better shot of international service.
Pat

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 41):
But we're talking about an airline that has service to 4 airports from BDL

7

DCA, FLL, MCO, PBI, TPA, RSW and SJU

[Edited 2015-04-07 14:56:48]

jetblueguy22 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:48 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 42):
7

DCA, FLL, MCO, PBI, TPA, RSW and SJU.

I'm not up on my B6 knowledge from BDL I guess! Are all those year round or seasonal? I know DCA, FLL, and SJU are year round.
Pat

Cadet57 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:51 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
Are all those year round or seasonal?

DCA, FLL, and MCO are double daily year round. SJU (except F-Sa-Su when its 2x), PBI, and TPA are single daily, RSW is going to seasonal I believe, I haven't seen our final summer schedule.

Boeing744 · Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:28 pm

What about KEF on Icelandair (or, less likely, WOW)?

Advantages:

- Great connections to all over Europe
- Appropriate aircraft size (B757 or A320)
- No LHR slot issues

frostyj · Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:30 am

No offence but what is there for a person like me to travel to Conneticut for? Why wouldn't I fly to New York and drive????

I can't see Aer Lingus doing this when they already have a tight fleet and only expand at a steady rate. The only way it would work would be if they used an A320 but thats not going to happen.

[Edited 2015-04-07 18:41:49]

frostyj · Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 19):

I think in the summer it might. Its only a 3,000 mile route and if you put business class in its even less seats.

frostyj · Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 45):

Ugh please just stop, Iceland is a detour and it is mid atlantic. I am so fed up of people suggesting Iceland - No one can be bothered making a stop over there on a six hour flight, its too short and time would be added.

[Edited 2015-04-07 18:40:45]

S75752 · Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:44 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 46):
No offence but what is there for a person like me to travel to Conneticut for? Why wouldn't I fly to New York and drive????

Because it's a 100 mile drive. And even more flying.

The main reason is because Connecticut is a huge market with lots of people living in the band that the airport serves, so leisure O&D would largely be from the US side I think. Business would be both sides. A Premium rich 738 max should be able to do it as such.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 45):
What about KEF on Icelandair (or, less likely, WOW)?

I think we will see KEF, but it will not sate the need for a Europe nonstop.
KEF can be achieved with an existing 738, it's not very far at all. But still defies the point.

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