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TK787
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AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:43 pm

Here is a video of the rescue mission:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32216712
with 240 pax, 60 more than usual.
I know this is a rescue mission but is this common to take more pax than capacity during these flights? What happens if something goes wrong, if they have to evacuate and such?
Thanks.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:51 pm

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
is this common to take more pax than capacity during these flights?

Yes. Look for the World Airways 727 out of Vietnam or the El Al 747 from Etiopia with about 1,000 people on board.
 
AR385
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
Yes. Look for the World Airways 727 out of Vietnam or the El Al 747 from Etiopia with about 1,000 people on board.
World Airways 727 In Vietnam, March 1975 (by Falstaff Aug 8 2006 in Civil Aviation)

And it was damaged...
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:43 am

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter):
What happens if something goes wrong, if they have to evacuate and such?

Well, it can't be worse than staying in Yemen.  
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:24 am

It all depends on weight calculations.

Average Asian weighs less.
Lot of kids on lap.
No Cargo
No Check-in baggage
No Food Carts
Fuel just for 600 Mile round trip.
All posts are just opinions.
 
yenne09
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:57 am

Many years ago (1974) Qantas establish a record carrying 673 people on a 747 flight from Darwin to evacuate the city
which has been hit by Cyclone Tracy.

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/history-jumbo-jet/global/en
 
32andBelow
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 5):

Many years ago (1974) Qantas establish a record carrying 673 people on a 747 flight from Darwin
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
El Al 747 from Etiopia with about 1,000 people on board.

Which one is it? lol
 
kiwiandrew

RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:28 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 6):

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 5):

Many years ago (1974) Qantas establish a record carrying 673 people on a 747 flight from Darwin
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
El Al 747 from Etiopia with about 1,000 people on board.

Which one is it? lol

Both... QF established a record in 1974... but LY subsequently broke that record in 1991.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:44 am

Umm... is this legal?

Or as it's a rescue mission/crisis to Civil Aviation Authorities turn a blind eye?
 
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jsnww81
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 5):
Many years ago (1974) Qantas establish a record carrying 673 people on a 747 flight from Darwin to evacuate the city
which had been hit by Cyclone Tracy.

A bit off topic, but last year was the 40th anniversary of Cyclone Tracy... I read an interview with one of the evacuees on the record-setting Qantas flight who said she thought the plane was going to go right through the runway when it landed, it was that full. There were 707s going out regularly with over 200 passengers aboard as well.

In Gary McKay's book about the cyclone, he mentions that almost every female passenger was given an infant to hold (whether it was theirs or not), which pretty much doubled the passenger count on each flight. Qantas, TAA and Ansett all had flights departing around the clock for several days, along with military aircraft, and the road convoys heading south. Over 30,000 people left Darwin in the space of just a few days. Pretty impressive effort by the Australians - especially considering the storm (which nobody had been taking seriously) hit on Christmas Eve and it was late afternoon on Christmas Day before anyone realized that Darwin had gone silent.
 
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Faro
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:42 am

There is no physical law limiting the number of pax to that of the seats available on a given aircraft. And there's a hell of a lot of open space riding on airliners. That is why a 744ER at MTOW has a density (ie, specific gravity) comparable to that of balsa wood...
Airliner Density (by Faro Aug 20 2007 in Tech Ops)


Faro

[Edited 2015-04-09 01:22:24]
The chalice not my son
 
Lofty
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:17 am

During a rescue operation / evacuation laws go out the window, if you look at a ship doing a evacuation you will see people on the decks etc, if you was to count them you would not have enough Life jacket or room in Life boats but needs must.
 
Lofty
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:24 am

Also Evac flight normally operate on behalf of the Government and are covered by their insurance not the Airlines as most Insurance will not cover you to fly into a war zone.
 
YLWbased
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 8):
Umm... is this legal?

Really? Do people really care about law and order in a war zone? I, for one would most likely trash the law if I'm in Yemen right now.

YLWbased
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anplatinum
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:57 am

One of my relatives was on one of the first Qantas evacuation flights from Darwin to Sydney in 1974. Her flight was a 707 carrying women and children and probably created a record for the number of passengers in a 707. Most adults had a child on their lap. Catering was limited with children given priority.

She said that the Qantas staff were fantastic and couldn't do enough for the passengers who had been traumatised by the cyclone.
 
Cipango
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting YLWbased (Reply 13):
Really? Do people really care about law and order in a war zone? I, for one would most likely trash the law if I'm in Yemen right now.

Though no one cares about the law it is still a valid question to ask. Would AI receive fines for overfilling their flights?
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
offloaded
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:30 am

"Where would you like to sit sir, window, middle, window, or armrest?"

Quoting Cipango (Reply 15):
Would AI receive fines for overfilling their flights?

From whom? AI would only be authorised to operate these missions with Indian Govt approval.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Cipango
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 16):
From whom? AI would only be authorised to operate these missions with Indian Govt approval.

ICAO? Civil Aviation Governing bodies?
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
r2rho
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:48 am

The future high density A321NEO will carry exactly that amount - 240 pax. AI has simply given us a sneak preview  
From a weight point of view, the a/c can handle it. From an exit point of view not, but honestly, that it is not a legally approved pax number matters little in a war evacuation.
 
[email protected]
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:51 am

Its a war zone evac flt....pretty sure ICAO has got nothing to do with it! Govt of India could have used any aircraft at its disposal...but in this case it just turned out to be AI A321....i guess the pilots only minded as long as the max structural wt was respected! ..
 
Cipango
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:02 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 18):
From an exit point of view not, but honestly, that it is not a legally approved pax number matters little in a war evacuation.
Quoting [email protected] (Reply 19):
Its a war zone evac flt....pretty sure ICAO has got nothing to do with it!

Thanks for the answers!
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
txlbased
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:21 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 8):

It´s a non-revenue, non-scheduled flight flight from a war zone to a safe place. It´s a human rescue mission. ICAO does a good job, but in this case they better stay out of it.
You have your office cubicle. I have mine - it roars!
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:21 am

That minister is a tough nut. Flying on an airplane headed into a warzone to personally supervise operations has got to take the cake.

That's what a military background does to you I guess. The man was formerly India's Army chief.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
Eltomzo
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:16 pm

A bit of a waste of seats to have a reporter, a cameraman, a minister etc. on board when they had to leave people behind in Yemen.
 
EyeSky
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:21 pm

On July 17, 1961 a SABENA 707-329 flew a record 293 passengers on one refugee flight from the Belgian Congo along with a crew of 10. I think this record stood for quite a while as the most passengers ever carried by a 707.

Here is a link: http://fly.historicwings.com/2012/07/out-of-the-heart-of-darkness/
 
aircatalonia
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:25 pm

Even 300 people would have been just fine weight-wise, two people per seat where possible and the rest in the aisle. Some people could have traveled in the pressurized compartments too. With 5 or 6 tons you would still be way under the MTOW.
 
q120
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:43 pm

However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
 
Mitico12
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:05 pm

Stupid question...where do the people sit if there aren't any seats?
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting Eltomzo (Reply 23):

A bit of a waste of seats to have a reporter, a cameraman, a minister etc. on board when they had to leave people behind in Yemen.

This was just one of a series of flights. They didn't leave people behind.

Kudos to the Indian government and Air India for evacuating not only Indian nationals, but foreigners and people from all religious backgrounds, hindus, buddhists, christians, jews and muslims.
 
olddominion727
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:50 pm

Why didn't they use their bigger equipment like their 777's?
 
4xear
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting Mitico12 (Reply 27):

They sat on the floor in the absence of seats.
 
brahmin
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Eltomzo (Reply 23):
A bit of a waste of seats to have a reporter, a cameraman, a minister etc. on board when they had to leave people behind in Yemen.

The minister is required to make decisions and clear problems.

Reporters and cameramen are required for the world to know what is happening.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:50 pm

This is the well known video film on board the last flight from Da Nang 40 years ago...

http://youtu.be/pzcWZ7j1iTg
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:52 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 29):
Why didn't they use their bigger equipment like their 777's?

Sanaa - Djibouti they used A321s, I think total of 17 flights (first flight may be on C-17)
Port of Aden - Djibouti by Indian Navy

Apparently passengers reaching Sanaa International was the most difficult part.

They used B777 and IAF C-17s to ferry from Djibouti to India.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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sturmovik
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 33):
Apparently passengers reaching Sanaa International was the most difficult part.

If that was the case, the A321 would make more sense than the 777. Frequent short hops ferrying people out as soon as they have enough of a crowd, as opposed to a 777 waiting to be filled. I assume the 240 pax flight was more the exception than the norm within the mission.
'What's it doing now?'
 
BarfBag
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:59 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 29):
Why didn't they use their bigger equipment like their 777's?

They DID use the B77Ws, the A32xs and the IAF C-17s, in addition to two passenger ships escorted by a destroyer and a frigate and supply ship. Just because the title refers to the A320 doesn't mean nothing else flew. There was a news report reference to a '4 hour window' in the no fly zone restrictions. I assume this was on a daily basis, which means they'd run Sanaa-Djibouti flights en masse in a short window and then evacuate out of Djibouti. I'm pretty sure there were B777s operating out of Sanaa - there's a picture of one on Gettys Images.

There were a hell of a lot of people to evacuate, not just our own but yours as well. Your own embassy there told your nationals to go to the Indian Embassy in order to evacuate:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FNPHbKyA10U/VSP6MhcFuOI/AAAAAAAAB0M/A8U0pDmeWKU/s1600/Rahat_US%2BEmbassy_Indian%2BHelp.png
http://www.indiatvnews.com/news/indi...urs-in-yemen-evacuation-49455.html
3 C-17 Globemaster aircraft of IAF clocked 150 hours in Yemen evacuation

[Edited 2015-04-09 12:05:04]
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:00 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 29):
Why didn't they use their bigger equipment like their 777's?

Could be down to insurance, it's going to be cheaper to cover an A321 flying into a warzone than a 777.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Flighty
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:07 pm

Just because you put a lot of people onboard does not mean you are exceeding MTOW. In all likelihood you are not. So the airplane flies normally. Floor loading may be a concern but probably not. So it is a simple matter of unbelted passengers. Is it ideal, no, is it terribly dangerous, no. There is almost no danger to it.

IIRC the World 727 had passengers in unpressurized and/or unheated areas of the plane which is not very safe.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 36):
Could be down to insurance, it's going to be cheaper to cover an A321 flying into a warzone than a 777.

Insurance is definitely a factor. In the past AI actually used B77L for Erbil evacuation, BOM-EBL round trip without refueling at Erbil. Only time B77Ls range came in handy!!! Brought back 75 nurses held hostage by ISIS.
All posts are just opinions.
 
kotoka
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:43 pm

 
hivue
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting Lofty (Reply 11):
During a rescue operation / evacuation laws go out the window,

I seriously doubt that in today's world. An airplane that's overloaded, out of balance, or doesn't have proper seats and restraints for all passengers goes down and the lawyers will be all over it like a cheap suit, emergency or no emergency.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
abrelosojos
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:23 am

What an awesome story. Kudos to Air India!

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
AR385
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 40):
I seriously doubt that in today's world. An airplane that's overloaded, out of balance, or doesn't have proper seats and restraints for all passengers goes down and the lawyers will be all over it like a cheap suit, emergency or no emergency.

Doesn´t liability like that goes out the window when the operation is due to Combat and War circumstances? Just asking, really. I don´t know.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 37):
IIRC the World 727 had passengers in unpressurized and/or unheated areas of the plane which is not very safe.

In the cargo bays.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting Cipango (Reply 17):
ICAO? Civil Aviation Governing bodies?

Im sure those flights were operating under military authority, exempting the airline from any civil liability if something were to occur.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 35):
They DID use the B77Ws, the A32xs and the IAF C-17s, in addition to two passenger ships escorted by a destroyer and a frigate and supply ship. Just because the title refers to the A320 doesn't mean nothing else flew

The A321 was used to evacuate people from Sana'a to Djibouti, while the 777s and C-17s transported them from Djibouti to India.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
macc
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 8):
Umm... is this legal?

Or as it's a rescue mission/crisis to Civil Aviation Authorities turn a blind eye?

I am sure they face a rigid inquest from Yemenian Aviation Authorities...
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 40):
I seriously doubt that in today's world. An airplane that's overloaded, out of balance, or doesn't have proper seats and restraints for all passengers goes down and the lawyers will be all over it like a cheap suit, emergency or no emergency.

There are dozens of cabin pictures of these 18 flights. At least 3 flights had news crews taping. None look like over filled. Like I said up thread, lot of children on lap. Some rows you can see 4 adults in 3 seats.

It looks nowhere close to a stuffed Mini Cooper.
All posts are just opinions.
 
aarbee
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 29):
Why didn't they use their bigger equipment like their 777's?
Quoting sturmovik (Reply 34):
If that was the case, the A321 would make more sense than the 777. Frequent short hops ferrying people out as soon as they have enough of a crowd, as opposed to a 777 waiting to be filled. I assume the 240 pax flight was more the exception than the norm within the mission.

As Orla Guerin says in the video, they were given 30 minutes at the Sana airport.
Love the AIXes
 
Lofty
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RE: AI 321 Out Of Yemen With 240 Pax On BBC

Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:33 pm

Also depends on what ground equipment you have and which crew are free and prepared to operate as to which type you use.

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