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LAXintl
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BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:32 pm

In the worst clash so far among European airlines over how to deal with the Persian Gulf carriers, Iberia and British Airways have left industry group Association of European Airlines (AEA) at the end of March.

International Airlines Group (IAG), the parent of BA and Iberia, said “our position on some important policy issues is not aligned with many other AEA airlines.” IAG in believes “that global liberalization of our industry is fundamental to our future growth and we are not willing to compromise on it.”

The conflict centers on demands put forth by Air France-KLM and Lufthansa Group to limit access to Europe for Gulf carriers, and to investigate and limit what they perceive as state subsidies to Qatar Airways, Etihad Airways and Emirates Airline.
IAG has taken a completely different approach. IAG CEO Willie Walsh has said numerous times that he has “no issues” with the growth of the Gulf airlines and that he admires them.


Iberia And BA Leave AEA In Clash Over Gulf Carriers
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...leave-aea-clash-over-gulf-carriers

=


Interesting internal battle in Europe of the protectionist crowd led by AF+LH versus folks like IAG

Article also metions this might be the end of AEA as the association has been in crisis mode has struggled as many of the regions carriers such as LCC segment have formed their own industry associations and the AEA has been left ever more isolated.
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MaverickM11
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
IAG has taken a completely different approach. IAG CEO Willie Walsh has said numerous times that he has “no issues” with the growth of the Gulf airlines and that he admires them.

QR also just bought 10% of IAG making it the largest shareholder. Whatacoincidence.
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ytz
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):

QR also just bought 10% of IAG making it the largest shareholder. Whatacoincidence.

Walsh's stance has been consistent, since well before the QR equity stake.
 
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qf789
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):

QR also just bought 10% of IAG making it the largest shareholder. Whatacoincidence.

There is no coincidence.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 2):
Walsh's stance has been consistent, since well before the QR equity stake.


Yes, he made the following comment in April 2012

Walsh has led a charge among European airlines against what the industry regards as over-regulation and excess costs, while heavyweight Gulf carriers like Emirates, Abu Dhabi's Etihad and Qatar Airways mop up traffic for fast-growing East-West hubs.

Walsh defended the record of Gulf carriers from charges of unfair competition levelled by rivals such as Air France (AIRF.PA).

"I am actually somewhat different from my counterparts around Europe. I have no problem with what Middle East carriers are doing. Rather than be critical I think we should look to them as an example of what can be done."

However, he questioned whether competition would support all three Gulf majors, whose expansion accounts for a quarter of unfilled orders for large aircraft at Airbus EAD.PA and Boeing Co (BA.N), and he made a pitch for some to join alliances like BA's oneworld.

"I personally believe the industry has matured to a point where we'll see Middle East carriers joining the alliances this year. I'd be amazed if this doesn't happen. Within oneworld we have been debating it. To my mind they are the key players."

Alliances were set up in the 1990s to help airlines take advantage of each other's marketing and traffic in the face of tightly controlled bilateral traffic rights, but industry critics say joining the global clubs can be costly.

Emirates, the largest Arab carrier, has ruled out joining an alliance as it focuses on keeping a uniform brand across its own huge network, while Qatar Airways has said it is not a priority, while leaving the option open in the future.

Air France-KLM said last week it was discussing partnerships with Etihad but the Abu Dhabi carrier has not commented specifically on whether it is looking at alliances.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/26/uk-iag-idUSLNE83P00M20120426
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mercure1
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:01 pm

AEA was a dying group indeed as many smaller carriers and entire LCC industry went off an did its own thing.

Unfortunately AEA has became the PR arm now of the large sick airline European groups as its managed to fracture relations with BA/IB as well.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
QR also just bought 10% of IAG making it the largest shareholder. Whatacoincidence.

I don't think so. As article noted it was BA/IAG that pushed to have IATA include the ME3 back in 2011 in its board of governors.
BA/IAG has long taken anti-protectionist view unlike its continental European and not imposed road blocks on ME3 competition.
As I recall Willie Walsh said the best way to compete against the ME3 is actually to compete, not hiding in ones office.
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MaverickM11
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 3):
There is no coincidence.

Uh huh. And QR just bought into IAG on the advice of its Charles Schwab broker. Same with EY and its EU investments...

Quoting YTZ (Reply 2):
Walsh's stance has been consistent, since well before the QR equity stake.

That may be true, but now QR has a platform and some leverage.
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SCQ83
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:31 pm

This is a very natural and positive move IMO.

When we talk about "European Association" of any kind (i.e. the European Union) is increasingly just a mimic to impose the interests of Germany and their large corporations like Lufthansa. This will have to end sooner or later.

Carriers like Iberia and countries like Spain benefit rather than anything from the expansion of the ME3 in Europe. The fight of Lufthansa or Air France's against Emirates is not Iberia's fight, so LH can suck it up.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):

QR also just bought 10% of IAG making it the largest shareholder. Whatacoincidence.

Wrong way round.

QR joined oneworld and bought their stake in AIG in preference to any other airline alliance, European airline or European airline group because only IAG, a lead oneworld player and the QR sponsor for oneworld membership, have consistently expounded a competitive globalised market. This contrasts with the restrictive practices that work against the customers' interests that seem to be increasingly the favour of the day amongst many other airlines

Of course this will illicit the old hoary response 'They would wouldn't they with the LHR slot situation?' But LON will shortly offer nine EK 380 daily flights to DXB. In addition to EK002, EK004, EK006, EK008 and EK030 their are EK5102 and EK5110, their code shares on QF metal, plus one soon to be two of their own flights from LGW.

Is there another city that has this many EK 380 flights to DXB?
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
That may be true,

It is true. So why mischaracterize this action as nefariously driven by QR's very recent investment?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 5):
but now QR has a platform and some leverage.


What leverage? Do you really believe any government is going to take any of QR's concerns seriously over a 10% stake in IAG?
 
hibtastic
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:06 pm

Well done IAG. No moaning and throwing toys out of prams. I like their determined stance that they prefer to get on with it and compete, unlike other European airlines.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 6):
This is a very natural and positive move IMO.

When we talk about "European Association" of any kind (i.e. the European Union) is increasingly just a mimic to impose the interests of Germany and their large corporations like Lufthansa. This will have to end sooner or later.

Very true why do so many Brits want out of the EU. Suppose this is a step in the right direction

History is repeating itself the Zollverien and Latin Monetary Union. Bring back Splendid Isolation!!!
 
airbazar
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:16 pm

IAG are the least exposed to the ME3 and the ones that stand to gain the most by their expansion. The UK has a market to India that is large enough for everyone. IB doesn't play in Asia, their market in between Latin America and Europe, of which the ME3 don't play a role. In addition, IAG are in OnceWorld, the only Alliance with a hub and a partner in the Middle East. So of course IAG wants the ME3 to grow. As the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The weaker AF/KL and LH get the better it is for IAG. It's that simple.
 
migair54
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
IAG are the least exposed to the ME3 and the ones that stand to gain the most by their expansion. The UK has a market to India that is large enough for everyone. IB doesn't play in Asia, their market in between Latin America and Europe, of which the ME3 don't play a role. In addition, IAG are in OnceWorld, the only Alliance with a hub and a partner in the Middle East. So of course IAG wants the ME3 to grow. As the saying goes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. The weaker AF/KL and LH get the better it is for IAG. It's that simple.

I am not sure if IAG is the least affected by the ME3, just check how many flights do they have to London only daily, and then tell me, then BHX, MAN, NCL... it´s an incredible number of seats, also MAD and BCN get many traffic away from IAG, even if right now IB don´t fly to Asia, if ME3 were not there we might have seen IB in Asia, and don´t forget that they don´t fly own metal but they have pax travelling with CX, BA, JL, etc, and they could attract a lot pax from SA to Asia now that the market is much bigger than 10-15 years ago.

It is the same I have been saying about US3 and ME3 to Asia, US3 they keep cutting capacity instead of fighting, almost no presence in India, Pakistan, Iran, Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Vietnam... even HKG and China are very limited compare with the size of both markets.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:30 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
In addition, IAG are in OnceWorld, the only Alliance with a hub and a partner in the Middle East. So of course IAG wants the ME3 to grow.

Skyteam also have MEA and Saudi in the mid east....
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
I am not sure if IAG is the least affected by the ME3, just check how many flights do they have to London only daily, and then tell me, then BHX, MAN, NCL... it´s an incredible number of seats, also MAD and BCN get many traffic away from IAG, even if right now IB don´t fly to Asia, if ME3 were not there we might have seen IB in Asia, and don´t forget that they don´t fly own metal but they have pax travelling with CX, BA, JL, etc, and they could attract a lot pax from SA to Asia now that the market is much bigger than 10-15 years ago.


To LHR you have
EK 5 x A388
QR 6 flights (1 x A388, 1 x 77W, 1 x 333, 2 x A346, 1 x A319) Widebody Equipment varies
EY 3 flights ( 1 x 388, 2 x 77W)
plus QF 2 x A388

Works out to be about 6500 seats a day
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MaverickM11
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting YTZ (Reply 8):
So why mischaracterize this action as nefariously driven by QR's very recent investment?

Who said nefarious? It's smart.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 8):
What leverage? Do you really believe any government is going to take any of QR's concerns seriously over a 10% stake in IAG?

No one. But they will listen to IAG.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
QR joined oneworld and bought their stake in AIG in preference to any other airline alliance, European airline or European airline group because only IAG, a lead oneworld player and the QR sponsor for oneworld membership, have consistently expounded a competitive globalised market

I think IAG was receptive to the money QR was willing to throw at them, but the PR spin sounds nice too
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sierra3tango
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:08 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 14):
To LHR you have
EK 5 x A388
QR 6 flights (1 x A388, 1 x 77W, 1 x 333, 2 x A346, 1 x A319) Widebody Equipment varies
EY 3 flights ( 1 x 388, 2 x 77W)
plus QF 2 x A388

Works out to be about 6500 seats a day

Plus the BA / VS & Royal Brunei worth maybe another 1000 seats a day
 
airbazar
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
I am not sure if IAG is the least affected by the ME3, just check how many flights do they have to London only daily, and then tell me, then BHX, MAN, NCL... it´s an incredible number of seats, also MAD and BCN get many traffic away from IAG, even if right now IB don´t fly to Asia

How many routes has BA dropped as a result? None or close to none.
My point is the UK market is big enough for ALL of them and that the ME3 are stimulating that market rather than take away from BA. BA doesn't care and never cared about what happens outside of LHR. People from BHX, MAN, NCL were more likely to connect in CDG or FRA than LHR. And there was a lot of pent up demand which the ME3 tapped into. That is not the case for LH or AF. Unlike BA, their market is more a connecting market than it is O&D, and a huge portion of it are connections to/from the U.S. and UK.

As for MAD and BCN, the ME3 are taking away passengers from LH and AF. LHR is the least convenient hub of the 4 big hubs for connections to Asia. IIRC KLM used to have the largest market share from Portugal and Spain to Asia. Today it's EK. And like I said, any business that AF and LH loose is good news for IAG.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 15):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 7):
QR joined oneworld and bought their stake in AIG in preference to any other airline alliance, European airline or European airline group because only IAG, a lead oneworld player and the QR sponsor for oneworld membership, have consistently expounded a competitive globalised market

I think IAG was receptive to the money QR was willing to throw at them, but the PR spin sounds nice too



Dosen't the money QR paid for the shares go to the selling share holder, not the company whose shares are being traded? IAG didn't get anything.
 
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VS4ever
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 12):
I am not sure if IAG is the least affected by the ME3, just check how many flights do they have to London only daily, and then tell me, then BHX, MAN, NCL...

You assume that IAG care a whole lot of about BHX, MAN and NCL. If they did, then the equivalent flights would have been created way before now. Sure those airports provide some feed, but LHR/LGW is where the money and operation is for IAG and even with 6,500 seats as noted above going to the ME3, BA and co seem to be doing quite nicely at the moment.
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:21 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
...

Indeed.

If tomorrow someone manages to create an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, fits it with a huge airport and bases an intercontinental airline on it which connects Europe with North and South America through an unrestricted hub system, rid of all environmental concerns and with staff paid tax free salaries and no airport departure taxes whatsoever, who's taking bets BA/IB will not be the very first one to complain about unequal conditions!?

That imaginary island in the middle of the ocean exists although it is actually a place in the Arabian desert; it's called Dubai, Qatar and Abu Dhabi and its focus is not on Europe to the Americas, but rather Europe to Asia.
Simple as that.

Restrict their access the way Canada does it; simple as that.
 
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mercure1
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:31 pm

Playing to ones geographic position is natural process in the airline industry.

ME3 are just lucky that 2/3 of world population and trade are within easy reach of their well positioned homes.

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SCQ83
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):

A couple of points.

- London is by far the city in Europe with more ME3 service. If you count just Emirates and Qantas, the number of daily seats is mind blowing.

- The ME3 and Turkish are not just taking away traffic from LH or AF in Spain. It is certainly a traffic generator. Not only because the increased trade between Spain and Asia. Asian tourism to Spain is growing very fast, and I bet those new links have a lot to do. I know this is totally anecdotical, but I know many people in Spain that previously would only venture into Punta Cana or the alikes that now would shuttle to Male, Phuket or Bali, which previously were seen as expensive and out of the way destinations. Emirates and Turkish have made those connections cheaper and more cheerful... Long are the days of expensive tickets and inconvenient long layovers or double connects in FRA or CDG.

Australia is another lion... Madrid or Barcelona to anywhere Australia was an epic journey before (double connect at least) now it is one stop through Dubai with multiple daily options.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:45 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 22):
- London is by far the city in Europe with more ME3 service. If you count just Emirates and Qantas, the number of daily seats is mind blowing.


Yes and QF only use 2 of their 4 slots, the other 2 currently leased out. One day we may see 9 flights to LHR between QF & EK if they use those 2 existing slots.
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anstar
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 22):
The ME3 and Turkish are not just taking away traffic from LH or AF in Spain.

But they are taking traffic away form LH/AF/KL etc on India - USA... they are also taking away traffic from CX/SQ/TG/MH on Europe - Oz.

So while they may generate new traffic in some markets - they are indeed taking away from established carriers in some markets.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 24):
they are also taking away traffic from CX/SQ/TG/MH on Europe - Oz.

MH & TG yes. CX operates 5 daily to LHR and SQ 4. CX is starting to use 77W to SYD as they cant get any more frequencies due to bilaterals. SQ is still expanding is Australia, will be adding a 5th Service SYD soon operated 3 days a week initially. They also operate 4 daily to PER and MEL, 3 daily to BNE and up to 2 daily to ADL.

If anything they may have felt it to some degree but not to the extent that MH & TG have.
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Qatara340
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:04 pm

The Aviation Industry should STOP segregating the aviation world into US and THEM-- as if WE are trying to steal their traffic.

And by WE I mean Middle Eastern Big 3. Yes, we are trying to steal traffic growth. I don't think anybody is in the business of flying empty planes.

Europe has liberalized its skies years ago with its intra open-skies policy, creating massive opportunities for their own carriers to grow and operate in other EU countries. No doubt legacy carriers suffered as a result. Not only that, but EU carriers fly into almost every city in North America for as much as they want. Nobody is complaining. But, when it comes to the ME3, it is being segregated as it they are the enemies out to get them.

Grow up, and liberalize the aviation world. If it was up to me, I would allow all airlines to operate out of all countries.
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EI320
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:41 pm

It's time for the industry to accept that the ME3 are now a permanent fixture in the aviation world. Their presence and continued expansion delivers numerous benefits to consumers: better service, better connectivity, and better fares.

No carrier is entitled to traffic flows just because they have had enjoyed a near-monopoly in those markets for several decades. There are no grandfather rights available - it is a free market, and that is something we ought to be thankful for.

Some carriers speak of there now being an "uneven playing field", whilst ignoring the fact that this has always been the case. In the history of commercial aviation, there has never been an even playing field, and to claim otherwise is simply ridiculous.
 
anstar
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting EI320 (Reply 27):
No carrier is entitled to traffic flows just because they have had enjoyed a near-monopoly in those markets for several decades. There are no grandfather rights available - it is a free market, and that is something we ought to be thankful for.

Some carriers speak of there now being an "uneven playing field", whilst ignoring the fact that this has always been the case. In the history of commercial aviation, there has never been an even playing field, and to claim otherwise is simply ridiculous.

UI guess the gripe should be taken up with the EU. If EU countries were allowed to provide interest free loans that dont need to be paid back to their respective airlines similar to the ME3 then it would be even.... so the gripe shouldnt be with the ME3, but shouldbe with the EU by not allowing the same practices to be available to EU carriers.
 
SQ325
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:55 pm

So funny!
people are crying about workers dying at construction sites for the FIFA Championship in Qatar !
The same workers under the same working conditions build and work at DOH,DXB and AUH Airports!
At the same time we accept and welcome the ME3 because of their shiny new Aircrafts!
 
EI320
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 28):
If EU countries were allowed to provide interest free loans that dont need to be paid back to their respective airlines similar to the ME3 then it would be even.... so the gripe shouldnt be with the ME3, but shouldbe with the EU by not allowing the same practices to be available to EU carrier

Indeed; by all means ask the EU, and when Brussels rightly refuses, they should then get on with running their respective businesses. Nobody is forcing anyone to compete with the ME3 - LH, AF etc are free to cull much of their Asian network if they feel they are unable to compete. The ME3 will be more than willing to fill any gaps left by them.
 
lancelot07
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:02 pm

Quoting QatarA340 (Reply 26):
Not only that, but EU carriers fly into almost every city in North America for as much as they want. Nobody is complaining.

EU is a big market.
US is a big market. There is a quid pro quo.
UAE and Qatar are nothing. There is no quid pro quo.
 
EI320
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 29):

This is an irrelevant, and entirely pointless, comparison. There are no workers in EK, EY and QR dying on the job.

By that logic, if we were to boycott DOH, AUH and DXB given the horrific incidents that may have occurred during construction, then we should also boycott BA, AF, LH etc who also have the nerve to serve these airports?
 
rtfm
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 18):
Dosen't the money QR paid for the shares go to the selling share holder, not the company whose shares are being traded? IAG didn't get anything.

Correct - QR bought their shares on the open market.
 
lancelot07
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 28):
UI guess the gripe should be taken up with the EU. If EU countries were allowed to provide interest free loans that dont need to be paid back to their respective airlines similar to the ME3 then it would be even.... so the gripe shouldnt be with the ME3, but shouldbe with the EU by not allowing the same practices to be available to EU carriers.

As a taxpayer in the EU, it is cheaper for me if they ban subsidized competition from EU sky, and keep subsidies outlawed. Case closed.
 
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 31):
UAE and Qatar are nothing. There is no quid pro quo

The US were fighting for a fully liberalised global aviation market as early as 1944 in Chicago. Back then of course, a fully liberalised international market would have greatly benefitted the US operators who at that time had the cash, technology, and resources to race ahead of foreign carriers and potentially serve the globe. The US clearly weren't concerned about a "level playing field" back then.

Of course; now that the tables have turned and they perceive (wrongly in my view) that their own operators may be under threat from foreign competition, they are now reconsidering their idea of full and unlimited market access.
 
SQ325
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting EI320 (Reply 32):
This is an irrelevant, and entirely pointless, comparison

It is not irrelevant!
If I can pay my workers 100usd/month for whatever Job they are doing I can sell my product for a lower price!

So Canada, US and Europe have to make the decision either to adapt this practise or protect their working conditions!
I don' t want loaders or cleaners in germany to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for 100€/month so I want those who treat their employees like this to only get limited access to our markets!

No one knows how many people got killed building DWC or DOH because people didn' t care before the scandals
surrounding FIFA and the Championship in Doha!
 
EI320
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 36):
So Canada, US and Europe have to make the decision either to adapt this practise or protect their working conditions!
I don' t want loaders or cleaners in germany to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for 100€/month so I want those who treat their employees like this to only get limited access to our markets!

Yet thousands of expats actively seek employment with these carriers every year - across a range of operational areas.

Maybe you could address the point re BA, LH etc. If you believe the ME3 should be locked out of European markers given the labour conditions in the UAE and Doha, is it not hypocritical to support Western carriers who actively promote travel to these regions through various sales and marketing promotions?
 
PPVRA
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:39 pm

Limiting access is A way to fight subsidies but it's a bad way to fight subsidies.

AF and LH need to put pressure on their own governments at home to eliminate subsidies to airlines like EK for the financing of aircraft.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Qatara340
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:43 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 29):

How terribly funny considering the World Cup infrastructure and stadiums all the way to the new airport is built by American and European companies!

That has nothing to do with aviation. If you apply this logic you might as wel ban flying to the USA considering their wars all over the world, a logic which is baseless and I don't agree with. We buy the planes from Boeing and then should be restricted to flying them to the USA?

If you want to gain profitability be innovative and don't be in the attack mode.

To those who think Qatar and UAE are nothing, so be it. Then they should stop attacking "nobodies"
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
SQ325
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:45 pm

Yes thousands seek employment but why, if the come from Bangladesh, India or the Phillipines it is obvious!
Everyone except one I know in QR or EK (don' t know anyone from EY) would return home rather yesterday than tomorrow.
Most of them where desperate when moving to the Sandpit some blindfolded!

I don' t say they should be banned but their access should be limited!
 
slinky09
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:47 pm

I am delighted that a British company, like a lot of the British attitude to business and trade, is all for openness and through openess building opportunity for all. What they're saying in essence is that competition is good, which it is for companies that succeed by giving their customers what they believe is right, that open borders are good for trade and increase trade, and that regulation is bad, which it is.

Some European companies and countries, and some US companies could learn from this. Instead, the instinctive reaction seems to be no, lock them down, prevent others from offering a competitive service, create an unequal trade situation and ultimately make the customer suffer.

Go BA.
 
EI320
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:53 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 40):


Yes thousands seek employment but why, if the come from Bangladesh, India or the Phillipines it is obvious!
Everyone except one I know in QR or EK (don' t know anyone from EY) would return home rather yesterday than tomorrow.
Most of them where desperate when moving to the Sandpit some blindfolded!

I don' t say they should be banned but their access should be limited!


Don't forget the UK, Ireland, Netherlands, Germany etc etc etc.

I have met a number of people who work for EK/EY/QR and they are perfectly comfortable there. Some of the carriers are better than others, but none of these people are scrambling for a one-way ticket home. Of course there are drawbacks, but no job is perfect no matter where you're based.

[Edited 2015-04-16 13:55:08]
 
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Qatara340
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 40):

Your claim that some were blindfolded when arriving just adds to the false arguments that you are presenting. No one is forcing these people to work in these places.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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GCT64
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 41):
I am delighted that a British company, like a lot of the British attitude to business and trade, is all for openness and through openess building opportunity for all. What they're saying in essence is that competition is good, which it is for companies that succeed by giving their customers what they believe is right, that open borders are good for trade and increase trade, and that regulation is bad, which it is.

Other than I think you may have meant "protectionism is bad" rather than "regulation is bad", I totally agree with you.
Glad that IAG and the Brits on A.net are saying "stop moaning and get on with competing for passengers and cargo on the world market". Willy Walsh has been consistent for a long time in saying this, he also says that airlines should be allowed to have more cross-border mergers and ownership (i.e. they should be treated like normal companies not special cases) and I believe he's right on that too.

My (UK) company has to compete on the world market against US, Japanese, Chinese and French competition, there are no protectionist policies in our markets (whether selling into Europe, North America or Asia) and we simply live or die by whether we are better than the other guys (better products, better service etc.).
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
ytz
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:47 pm

Spare me the moral outrage.

Here in Canada, Air Canada, after failing to get a cut of profits lobbied the government and blocked ME3 expansion. They wrapped themselves in the flag. Said it was for the good of Canadians.

And then they turned around and outsourced maintenance to El Salvador. So much for their concern about Canadians.

These airlines are corporations, first and foremost, concerned with making money for their shareholders. They will all pay their employees no more the minimum required by law or market conditions.

And again, all the moral outrage for these labourers. Yet, far more workers, face significantly worse conditions in China, India, etc. Is anybody insisting on trade sanctions in other sectors, or with those countries? Nope. Everybody is rushing to trade with them. Why the double standard?

You either care about workers rights or you don't. And if you do, you should be insisting on heavy tarriffs on textiles from Bangladesh and India, electronics from China and Taiwan, etc. When we get to that point, we can discuss also limiting the ME3. Otherwise, I don't see how it's fair to say that somehow the labourer's life in Doha is worth more than the textile worker's life in Dhaka.
 
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ankaraflyjet
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:57 pm

Wait until new IST airport opens, the largest airport in the world, Turkish Airlines will beat all EU carriers and ME3 !!!
 
ytz
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:28 pm

Quoting ankaraflyjet (Reply 46):

Wait until new IST airport opens, the largest airport in the world, Turkish Airlines will beat all EU carriers and ME3 !!!

I like your enthusiasm. But I'm skeptical. TK won't really be getting much more traffic rights to India pretty soon. So that's one area they won't be growing.
 
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Qatara340
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:54 pm

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 36):
If I can pay my workers 100usd/month for whatever Job they are doing I can sell my product for a lower price!

So Canada, US and Europe have to make the decision either to adapt this practise or protect their working conditions!
I don' t want loaders or cleaners in germany to work 7 days a week 12 hours a day for 100€/month so I want those who treat their employees like this to only get limited access to our markets!

Yes Im sure, with 12.5 million Germans are now classified as poor, your argument is really sad! Where do you get the 100 Euros from? That can't be further from the truth. Nobody works 7 days a week, 12 hours a day for 100 E a month!

With German firms building our 26 billion dollar metro in Doha and designing our stadiums, we would really like to thank your country for the (brilliant) engineering and for your business.   Oh yeah, and the planes as well.

http://www.dw.de/poverty-in-germany-...est-since-reunification/a-18268757
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
SelseyBill
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RE: BA/IB Quit Assoc Europe Airlines In Clash Over ME3

Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting hibtastic (Reply 9):
Well done IAG. No moaning and throwing toys out of prams. I like their determined stance that they prefer to get on with it and compete, unlike other European airlines.

Agree.

I would like to see BA/QR/AA and other 'Oneworld' companies maybe get together take this thing to another level; by applying for a UAE AOC to commence operations themselves from DXB; maybe trading as 'Oneworld-DXB'.

'Oneworld-DXB' would have a starting network of LHR/ BAH/ HKG/ HEL /KL/ MEL/ SYD/ DOH/ AMM/ CMB/ OVB and 83 connections if they could strike a deal with FZ. I'm sure that nice man in Toulouse would cut them a good deal on A380's to get it all started too.........

I appreciate it would be unlikely; but it would sure be interesting.

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