BA0197
Topic Author
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Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:49 am

Question says it all really.

When QR joined OW a few years ago- people were shouting from the roof tops that we would see these two airlines operate extensively with each other. It was meant to be a solution to BA's SE Asia problem and also provide more feed to secondary cities in India. QR then gets access to the North American destinations that BA serve. Al Baker and Walsh were supposed to make it easy to do. It was meant to be a formidable competitor to the new EK/QF tie up.

Years later:

BA are still flying LHR-BAH-DOH one time a day
Limited codeshare arrangements (nothing outside the realms of a normal OW alliance operation)
QR now own 9.99% of IAG and still no arrangements

All the signs seem to point towards a JBA with an emphasis with connections via DOH for BA and LHR for QR, yet nothing has come to fruition. Why?
 
Deltabravo1123
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:55 am

I might be completely off the page here with this one... but perhaps QR simply wants to expand on their own without the help of another airline. Al Baker wants to show Clark that they can do the same, especially in the US. QR is still seeking to expand in the US and wants their brand name to grow independently without BA making the path for them. Just a random guess.
 
jfk777
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:00 pm

Qatar and BA at some point will cooperation, Australia is a place QR could do something for BA. BA will probably stop flying to Sydney, its last Aussie city, at some point. QR and BA should do their own version of the EK/QF alliance to give BA coverage of all Aussie city via Qatar flights from Doha. BA can find better uses for the 3 777 it needs to fly to Sydney fro LHR.
 
migair54
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:13 pm

Actually QR can't do much for BA in Australia because they only have 1 to PER and 1 to MEL, very limited and I'm not sure when QR will be able to expand in Australia more.

On the other hand, some other markets can gain BA pax via DOH, for example India, Pakistan, Iran... but then BA needs to start doing a direct LHR-DOH flight with our BAH stop, otherwise it's not competitive at all.

Quoting deltabravo1123 (Reply 1):
but perhaps QR simply wants to expand on their own without the help of another airline

Then why did they join OneWorld?? I think that BA is not the best partner for QR because many of the markets are not ideally connected via LHR, South America can go via MAD or GRU, North America via DFW or ORD and Europe via DOH directly.

Quoting deltabravo1123 (Reply 1):
Al Baker wants to show Clark that they can do the same, especially in the US

That would be a mistake, they have to follow their own path and not just copy EK.
 
Eirules
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:19 pm

I wonder is part of the issue here that QR is a dry airline? I can't imagine BA passengers being happy getting off in DOH and getting on to a 12 hour QR flight to MEL or PER without a drop of alcohol. Pretty much every other airline flying the kangaroo route give free booze including a number of other OneWorld carriers. Whether it's backpackers in Y or those who like their Moët in J, this is a competitive disadvantage and I'm sure BA know it
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
mmo
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 4):
I wonder is part of the issue here that QR is a dry airline?

Not quite sure where you got your information, but QR is NOT a dry airline!!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BA0197
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
BA needs to start doing a direct LHR-DOH flight with our BAH stop, otherwise it's not competitive at all.

One would have thought that this would have been a priority for BA. Very surprised we have not seen this happen tbh. I reckon these are prime routes for 772s with the 17F cabin.
 
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qf789
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Thread starter):
Question says it all really.

When QR joined OW a few years ago- people were shouting from the roof tops that we would see these two airlines operate extensively with each other. It was meant to be a solution to BA's SE Asia problem and also provide more feed to secondary cities in India. QR then gets access to the North American destinations that BA serve. Al Baker and Walsh were supposed to make it easy to do. It was meant to be a formidable competitor to the new EK/QF tie up.

Years later:

BA are still flying LHR-BAH-DOH one time a day
Limited codeshare arrangements (nothing outside the realms of a normal OW alliance operation)
QR now own 9.99% of IAG and still no arrangements

All the signs seem to point towards a JBA with an emphasis with connections via DOH for BA and LHR for QR, yet nothing has come to fruition. Why?

Your jumping the gun here. QR joined Oneworld on the 30th October 2013 so they have only been in the alliance not even 18 months. QR invested 9.99% of IAG at the end of January this year so its too early to ask why they haven't done much.

The QF/EK alliance took about 6-7 months from the time they publicly announced it to the time they started the alliance. In this time they needed to get the regulatory approvals along with having reciprocal frequent flyer programmes, coordinating maintenance and flight training and combining purchase power to buy goods such including fuel. If QR/BA are going to go down a similar path of QF/EK we may not hear anything for a while yet.

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Actually QR can't do much for BA in Australia because they only have 1 to PER and 1 to MEL, very limited and I'm not sure when QR will be able to expand in Australia more.

Correct, the current bilateral only allows for 14 services per week and they are not likely to get anymore approved in the near future.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Qatar and BA at some point will cooperation, Australia is a place QR could do something for BA. BA will probably stop flying to Sydney, its last Aussie city, at some point. QR and BA should do their own version of the EK/QF alliance to give BA coverage of all Aussie city via Qatar flights from Doha. BA can find better uses for the 3 777 it needs to fly to Sydney fro LHR.

IMO I don't think BA will pull out of SYD. Personally I flew on BA last year SYD-SIN-LHR and the flight was full. The majority on the flight flew all the way to LHR. BA also codeshares from HKG with CX and from SIN with QF to other Australian cities. I do know that QR loads from PER are consistently good.
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29erUSA187
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:11 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

Even if they initiate a partnership, I think they'll keep SYD, as a prestige thing.

"Hey! We fly to all 6 Inhabited continents!"
 
rta
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:21 pm

FWIW, there's also barely codeshare with AA from what I've noticed.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting qf789 (Reply 7):
Personally I flew on BA last year SYD-SIN-LHR and the flight was full. The majority on the flight flew all the way to LHR.

Doesn't mean much, especially when you take opportunity cost into account.

The route ties up 3 aircraft, that could be going elsewhere while just as full and (in theory) making just as much, if not more, money.

Every other Euro airline that flew to Australia has already come to that conclusion. LHR's market relationship to Oz is indeed special, but it's not magical. I wouldn't be surprised to see BA drop the route, especially if 1) QR expands to Australia and 2) the two can cozy up in a similar relationship to QF/EK.


Quoting qf789 (Reply 7):
BA also codeshares from HKG with CX and from SIN with QF to other Australian cities. I do know that QR loads from PER are consistently good.

That actually works against your earlier point-- why not just add SYD to both of those, what's one more codeshare? Problem solved.


Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 8):
Even if they initiate a partnership, I think they'll keep SYD, as a prestige thing.

Airlines have long since learned that "prestige" doesn't pay bills. There's very few prestige routes operated by shareholder-driven airlines nowadays.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
LHRFlyer
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Mon Apr 20, 2015 9:20 pm

Willie Walsh did say before Qatar had bought a stake in IAG, that the two had held exploratory talks on co-operation in the area of procurement but nothing had really come of it.

Reading between the lines of some of the comments Willie Walsh has made, QR doesn't seem to work to the rules of a public company like IAG, and decision making rests in the hands of Al Baker who can act on a whim.
 
tonystan
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting EIRules (Reply 4):
I wonder is part of the issue here that QR is a dry airline? I can't imagine BA passengers being happy getting off in DOH and getting on to a 12 hour QR flight to MEL or PER without a drop of alcohol. Pretty much every other airline flying the kangaroo route give free booze including a number of other OneWorld carriers. Whether it's backpackers in Y or those who like their Moët in J, this is a competitive disadvantage and I'm sure BA know it

Qatars not Dry fella!!!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting BA0197 (Thread starter):
When QR joined OW a few years ago-

A few years ago ? As has already been pointed out, they only joined about 18 months ago. It can take a while to put arrangements into place. However, as BA were their sponsor, I expect given time we will see extensive co-operation ( particular since QR are now the single biggest shareholder in BA's parent IAG).
 
nomorerjs
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:12 am

Slightly off topic, but why doesn't QR cooperate with AA at DFW? QR is having great loads at DFW (One World tie is probably helping, but we don't know the yields).
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 5:53 am

Every time I search for BA award tickets to Asia or the Persian Gulf, Qatar Airways options come up. So QR are definitely putting a lot of inventory into the oneworld pool.

Not only are QR not dry (eye roll), they make a fortune from booze as they have the exclusive licence to sell it at the DOH airport and maybe even in the city too. Major source of revenue.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
P206
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:26 am

On that booze talk

If you can't do without booze on 10-15 hour flight,then god help you.Are BA customers drunks only?
 
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cougar15
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:34 am

Quoting EIRules (Reply 4):
I wonder is part of the issue here that QR is a dry airline?

what, their Chivas is 18 yr old instead of the ussual 12 yr old stuff!  
some you lose, others you can´t win!
 
YLWbased
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:17 am

On the other hand, QR and CX seems to be getting along quite well.

There are 16 CX flights that carries the QR code out of HKG today, and 23 QR flights out of DOH that carries the CX code.

YLWbased
Hong Kong is not China. Not better or worse, just different.
 
bill142
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
Australia is a place QR could do something for BA.

More like the other way around. QR doesnt have any more frequencies into Australia and I doubt BA would want to commit the resources needed to help QR out into Australia.
 
theobcman
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:44 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

QR are really quite limited to Australia. CX are the one's who can do a lot for BA to Oz & NZ.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Actually QR can't do much for BA in Australia because they only have 1 to PER and 1 to MEL, very limited and I'm not sure when QR will be able to expand in Australia more.

Would it make sense for BA to consider a LHR-DOH-SYD service, which, with a QR codeshare could mop up a lot of connecting feed in DOH for both legs.

BA have served SYD 2 x daily before (previously via Bangkok), so should not have trouble getting rights, would just need more metal to fly the route...

seems this could well for both QR and BA?
 
jah718
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:39 am

Quoting P206 (Reply 16):
On that booze talk

If you can't do without booze on 10-15 hour flight,then god help you.Are BA customers drunks only?

I hate when people make comments like this, most people don't need alcohol, but it is still nice to have a drink on a long flight. Get off your high horse.
 
vv701
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:20 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Doesn't mean much, especially when you take opportunity cost into account.

The route ties up 3 aircraft, that could be going elsewhere while just as full and (in theory) making just as much, if not more, money.

Every other Euro airline that flew to Australia has already come to that conclusion. LHR's market relationship to Oz is indeed special, but it's not magical. I wouldn't be surprised to see BA drop the route, especially if 1) QR expands to Australia and 2) the two can cozy up in a similar relationship to QF/EK.


There is evidence other than reports of load levels that BA's SYD flight is in a much more healthy position than it was at the time of the BA JBA with QF.

In November 2013 at the IAG Capital Markets Day presentations they identified three 'underperforming' routes, those to DAR, LUN and SYD to illustrate part of their strategy. They identified this strategy as 'strengthen or exit'. In this example they told the analysts present that they had exited both DAR and LUN. On the other hand they had 'strengthened' their SYD operation. They reported the result was a 'c. £30 million profit improvement'.

Of course that meeting was getting on for 18 months ago. What we can say with certainty today is that BA has not down graded the SYD route to the 'quit' category. Further anecdotal reports are still indicating good load factors. Also, as their profitability numbers show , BA is not the kind of airline that puts sentiment before profit and operates a range of unprofitable routes when their are other more profitable opportunities to use their existing equipment.

IAG is firmly in control of its airlines' financial performances. There are no better illustrations of this than the rapid turnaround at IB and the caveat made on the supply of 20 new 320 series aircraft ordered by IAG. Willie Walsh has clearly stated that BA will only take delivery of these aircraft if it improves its short-haul profitability to give an apopropriate return on the investment in these new aircraft. This is almost certainly why BA is currently around half-way through reconfiguring the cabins of its single-aisle aircraft that will give them a 6 per cent increase in their short-haul capacity when complete.

The only reason BA could have for continuing to operate an 'underperforming' route is to preserve the LHR slots used until a better route can be operated. But it would be ridiculous to use the longest route in your timetable as a loss making LHR slot sitter.

Every other Euro airline that flew to Australia may well have come to a different conclusion and quit their 'underperforming' flight to Australia. But then again today which of these airlines is reporting profits as high or higher than BA?
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:35 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
On the other hand they had 'strengthened' their SYD operation. They reported the result was a 'c. £30 million profit improvement'.

Changing from the 744 to the 77W has made a big difference. Not just in terms of efficiency, but the product in Y and W was brought up to a competitive standard. It's not quite as good as CX for example, but it holds its own.

I don't think BA and QR have much to gain from further cooperation. BA already has their own big India presence. QR recognise that IAG is a well run company and want a piece of the action, but I doubt we'll start seeing zillions of BA flights to DOH.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
This is almost certainly why BA is currently around half-way through reconfiguring the cabins of its single-aisle aircraft that will give them a 6 per cent increase in their short-haul capacity when complete.

There are only two left to do. UPG and UPT.
the ex-BMI aircraft are not being converted.
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting theobcman (Reply 20):
CX are the one's who can do a lot for BA to Oz & NZ.

.....not forgetting potentially MH via KUL too......
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:35 am

Quoting P206 (Reply 16):
If you can't do without booze on 10-15 hour flight

In a fairly tedious aircraft environment for 15-hours I look forward to a glass of wine with a meal and a pre-dinner drink as well. It's not 'booze', it's the adult refreshment I often choose over others.

Quoting P206 (Reply 16):
then god help you

Apparently she's a little busy having her minions wage war against each other in her name.

Quoting P206 (Reply 16):
Are BA customers drunks only?

That's really quite unhelpful in a forum like this.

Quoting jah718 (Reply 22):
I hate when people make comments like this

Agreed.
come visit the south pacific
 
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qf2220
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting BA0197 (Thread starter):

Its the same with MH and QF. QF sponsored MH into oneworld but then absolutely nothing came of it.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:50 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 27):
In a fairly tedious aircraft environment for 15-hours I look forward to a glass of wine with a meal and a pre-dinner drink as well. It's not 'booze', it's the adult refreshment I often choose over others.

That may be true, but if someone is booking an airline on if they do or don't serve alcohol, they have a serious problem.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 21):
Would it make sense for BA to consider a LHR-DOH-SYD service, which, with a QR codeshare could mop up a lot of connecting feed in DOH for both legs.

Given BA operates LHR-BAH-DOH, it would be a big increase in the number of seats to DOH if the SYD flight stopped there instead of SIN. It would also add many seats to the currently unserved DOH-SYD (a tiny market compared to SIN-SYD). So for BA to operate LHR-DOH-SYD, they would have trouble filling the plane with pax who have alighted after LHR-DOH. For LHR-SIN-SYD, BA can easily sell spare seats for both the LHR-SIN & SIN-SYD sectors if there aren't enough pax flying the full LHR-SYD flight.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
There is evidence other than reports of load levels that BA's SYD flight is in a much more healthy position than it was at the time of the BA JBA with QF.

  
The exit of QF from LHR-SIN-SYD has meant that BA can capture former QF pax who prefer SIN as a stopover to DXB. However the biggest reasons for the improvement has been the cost reductions brought by mixed fleet crew and the switch to 77W.
 
Kashmon
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RE: Why No BA/QR Cooperation?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:53 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

CX covers Aus/NZ for BA...

way more flights and destinations than QR

and QR code shares a lot with CX
which for CX is really weird but then QR is the first airline in OW that is on the same service level as CX...

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