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Viscount724
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:14 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 19):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
My guess is that they can't fly out of STT because runway is only 7,000ft so they fly to STX (10,000ft runway), then shuttle passengers to the other islands.


You sure ? From what I can see of picturs in thedatabase, American Airlines has used both the Boeing 757 and the Airbus A300 there. Delta has used the Boeing 757 too ...

Yes, but on far shorter sectors than nonstop to Europe.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:58 am

Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 11):

Well I was in St Thomas two months ago. Except for some Danish street names that the locals have no idea about how to pronounce and a statue of Christian IX, there is not much Danish influence left. I didn't spend more than a few hours there though. There seems to be a lot of diamond and jewelry trading going on there.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting EIRules (Reply 9):
Once weekly to LAS is a bit odd. A week in Vegas is a long time unless they're thinking go direct one way and a one stop connection the other?
Quoting RemoFlyer (Reply 16):
Not at all - very smart in fact - after a week in Vegas you will have lost all the savings you accrued by flying a low cost carrier and then some; so you go back home a pauper - thus the next time around you will only be able to afford said low cost carrier

The reality of foreign passengers who visit Las Vegas, do so for an average of 4 nights, combining Las Vegas with Califoirnia the Grand Canyon or Surrounding states. So likely passengers would fly in or out of LAS & surface to LA then fly home.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
If they can make St.Croix work they can definitely make LGW-HNL work.

Please, not this again. They could fly LGW-HNL, but could it be done at a cost that would allow the route to make money? For the dozens of times this has come up lately, the general consensus is no, it would not work.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 29):
f Norwegian sets up an interline agreement with AS, like FI and DE have done from both SEA and PDX, then I could see them coming to both SEA and PDX.

Does Norwegian have code share partners? I am sure just about any carrier could fly into SEA with an interline agreement with AS / QX and have a good shot at making a break even point quickly.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 34):
They could have made the return leg the next day so the same crew could leave on the airplane.

This is what FI si doing with their new KEF-PDX-KEF route, sounds like the best plan for a 1 - 2 x weekly operation.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 39):
I will play the Devil's advocate

Why? there are so many on this site already.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 48):
And if they fill really ambitious, they can start Europe-GPT to tap into Biloxi's casinos

        
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Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:34 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):
Does Norwegian have code share partners?

No codeshare, no interline

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):
This is what FI si doing with their new KEF-PDX-KEF route, sounds like the best plan for a 1 - 2 x weekly operation

That works nice when using a cheap 757 with low ownership costs. An expensive 787 needs to be in the air to make money
 
MAH4546
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 42):
Care to explain why it wouldn't be profitable, then?

Well, for one thing, it flies to OAK. That right there is good reason why it wouldn't be profitable.

FLLLGW has hardly been a hit, and Miami is a far larger market to London than San Francisco. And I doubt they are making money on the rest of the Gatwick-America flying.
a.
 
S75752
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:05 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):

Please, not this again. They could fly LGW-HNL, but could it be done at a cost that would allow the route to make money? For the dozens of times this has come up lately, the general consensus is no, it would not work.

HNL is also about 2500 miles further than St Croix. I don't think that LCC's generally want to touch a route that lengthy.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 54):

Well, for one thing, it flies to OAK. That right there is good reason why it wouldn't be profitable.

FLLLGW has hardly been a hit, and Miami is a far larger market to London than San Francisco. And I doubt they are making money on the rest of the Gatwick-America flying.

I don't get why they're having trouble with it if Miami is a larger market than even the Bay Area.

The Bay Area is still apparently a large enough market for VS to toss in another frequency for the summer, and BA to upgrade to an A380... Perhaps their chance was simply missed in that case.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 55):
The Bay Area is still apparently a large enough market for VS to toss in another frequency for the summer, and BA to upgrade to an A380... Perhaps their chance was simply missed in that case.

What exactly was missed? What does BA and VS have to do with it? We are comparing Heathrow/San Francisco to Gatwick/Oakland. Virgin also added a second frequency to Miami. British Airways also has announced the A380 to Miami. Just because those airlines are having apparent success doesn't mean Norwegian will too. And you're still totally ignoring the fact that it's Oakland. That's a huge problem right there.
a.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:31 am

Does OSL have enough room for all these LH routes? I think they only have 4 or 5 gates that can cope with the 787.

Until the new pier opens and they can rejig the non-schengen area it will be tight.
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BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:41 am

Still don't get why Norwegian don't follow a main hub model for feed to their long haul network in the way air Asia X does mostly.

In that want they can offer frequency and connections - two ways to improve profitability.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
arn777
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:11 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 58):
Still don't get why Norwegian don't follow a main hub model for feed to their long haul network in the way air Asia X does mostly.

In that want they can offer frequency and connections - two ways to improve profitability.

From a Scandinavian perspective they still do that but they cover the relevant destinations with okay frequencies from OSL, ARN, CPH in combination, and there are plenty connections between these cities so that's not an issue at all. In that way the get the PR effect of "direct" services to many destinations from all three markets even if it means some PAX would need to connect through either OSL, ARN. CPH in many occasions.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 53):

They were confronted by 7 other airlines about having a codeshare with Norwegian but Norwegian declined to codeshare with them.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
airbazar
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 52):
Please, not this again. They could fly LGW-HNL, but could it be done at a cost that would allow the route to make money? For the dozens of times this has come up lately, the general consensus is no, it would not work.

There is no general consensus, which is why it has come up "dozens of times". There are 2 clear camps: those who thing it will happen and can be done profitably (like myself), and those who don't. As with everything, the naysayers always have a louder voice  
Quoting S75752 (Reply 55):

HNL is also about 2500 miles further than St Croix. I don't think that LCC's generally want to touch a route that lengthy.

But a market that is probably 10x bigger for Europeans than St. Croix.
 
SKAirbus
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:43 pm

LGW-HNL in a Norwegian 787 would be awful. 14-15+ hours in the air? No thanks!
Base: BRU
 
S75752
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:50 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 56):
We are comparing Heathrow/San Francisco to Gatwick/Oakland. Virgin also added a second frequency to Miami. British Airways also has announced the A380 to Miami. Just because those airlines are having apparent success doesn't mean Norwegian will too. And you're still totally ignoring the fact that it's Oakland. That's a huge problem right there.

What I'm wondering is precisely why OAK/FLL vs SFO/MIA makes the huge difference, aside from high yield traffic that will want the convenience, which doesn't seem to be DY's target anyways.

Well, the first thing I'll admit comes to mind is confusion on searches. Instinctively searching SFO or MIA and not flicking on Nearby airports on some search engine does will of course leave those out (I imagine that might have a bit of impact, with inexperienced travellers not switching that on).

That does make me curious though. So there's been mentions of MIA having high fees which can deter LCC's, but does SFO? I find that curious considering that they do serve JFK and LAX rather than... Well, on the other hand I suppose there may not really be a low cost alternate for those anyways. MCO though, I find it interesting that they didn't go for SFB instead.
 
airbazar
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:37 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 62):
LGW-HNL in a Norwegian 787 would be awful. 14-15+ hours in the air? No thanks!

How is it any different than AA's 787 Y cabin with a 31" pitch and 9 abreast, or UA's 32" pitch? Get used to it because it's going to become standard.

[Edited 2015-04-22 06:39:21]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:22 pm

History repeating itself...

Can anyone else think of a British airline that resorted to flying Caribbean island and Las Vegas routes other more established routes didn't work out?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 61):
But a market that is probably 10x bigger for Europeans than St. Croix.

Resorting to making numbers up?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 61):
As with everything, the naysayers always have a louder voice

Those with a rational argument and statistics have a better chance.


To be frank, neither route will be successful. The safety reputation of St Croix isn't fantastic from Memory.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
hohd
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:33 pm

I have checked Norwegian prices, they are not that cheap after adding one checked bag and meals, especially in off season. May in summer they are a bargain.
 
Someone83
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 57):
I think they only have 4 or 5 gates that can cope with the 787

But they have many busses....

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 54):
FLLLGW has hardly been a hit,

While I know nothing about the yield, so they still might have lost tons of money on the route, the planes at least has been almost full with a load factor in Q1 2015 of 93%
 
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saleya22r
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:49 pm

According to Wiki (STT Cyril E.King Airport history):

"The largest aircraft to offer charter jet service was the DC-10 flown by Iberia Airlines in January 1995 and another charter DC-10 in November 1999 by a different European airline. Another very large aircraft that arrived on St. Thomas was the Boeing 767-300 flown by Air 2000.[14]"

At least there have been heavies from Europe there..

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 65):
The safety reputation of St Croix isn't fantastic from Memory

Worse than in the Caribbean in general? I doubt it. Even so, I've never considered St Croix as one of the major resort islands such as St Thomas or St John but maybe I'm wrong
 
BestWestern
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 67):
a load factor in Q1 2015 of 93%

Thats a very strong load, but long haul is notoriously difficult to make money from without J traffic and last minute economy bookings. Look at Air Asia X - even with lowest costs, quite good loads and a J cabin, they are losing a fortune.


Both BA and the American carriers have tried LGW JFK without success, even with all the corporate deals, connections and interline opportunities, so I'm a sceptic that Norwegian will make this work.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Cory6188
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:26 pm

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 12):
There s not a lot of VFR traffic but it is a popular Holiday destination for danes.
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 27):
Those I know wh have been there has split thier Holiday between St. Croix and St. Thomas.

Not to derail the thread, but this is honestly a surprise to me. I've been to St. Thomas and St. John a handful of times, and I can't say I've ever come across a Danish tourist. I know that the Virgin Islands were formerly part of Denmark, but aside from town/street names, I can't say that it still feels like there's much of a holdover of Danish presence at this point.
 
airbazar
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 65):
Resorting to making numbers up?

Not really. In 2014 St. Croix saw 130,000 total tourist arrivals by air.
http://www.usviber.org/A15.pdf
If 10% of those were European, I think that's generous. Now this flight is from CPH so unlikely to connect many many passengers from the largest European market, the UK, and we're probably talking about an insignificantly small market.

Contrast that with the 143,000 European arrivals in Hawaii in the same year.
http://www.hawaiitourismauthority.or...0Press%20Release%20%28final%29.pdf

Granted, I'm comparing 1 island vs 1 archipelago. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison but I suspect that my guesstimation of 10x larger market is fair.

Quoting saleya22r (Reply 68):

"The largest aircraft to offer charter jet service was the DC-10 flown by Iberia Airlines in January 1995 and another charter DC-10 in November 1999 by a different European airline. Another very large aircraft that arrived on St. Thomas was the Boeing 767-300 flown by Air 2000.[14]"

At least there have been heavies from Europe there..

It doesn't say if they were non-stop which is key. Back in the day it was common for European charter airlines to make fuel stops on the way to the Caribbean and back. IB even had a hub in MIA so that flight could have very easily made a stop there.

[Edited 2015-04-22 17:49:52]
 
wedgetail737
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting SKAirbus (Reply 62):
LGW-HNL in a Norwegian 787 would be awful. 14-15+ hours in the air? No thanks!

You probably would feel better on a Dreamliner with a 6000-ft pressure than you would on an 8000-ft 777 or 747 on the
same or longer flight like LAX-Dubai.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 70):
I've been to St. Thomas and St. John a handful of times, and I can't say I've ever come across a Danish tourist. I know that the Virgin Islands were formerly part of Denmark, but aside from town/street names, I can't say that it still feels like there's much of a holdover of Danish presence at this point.

It's a quite common tourist site for Danes. You probably don't see them because they spend much of the time going around in busses and see museums, old sugar mills, the old governor's palace etc.

But then there are not that many Danes - there are 60 times more Americans. And one flight each week won't turn the local tourist industry upside down.

Also Danish tourists spend much (most?) of the time on St. Croix where most of the Danish business took place during the Danish period 1733 to 1917. That's also the island with the least good beaches.

And BTW, how exactly do you recognize a Dane when he speaks English better than most Englishmen?
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:29 am

Prebenholm, it's very easy to identify Danes trying to speak English - here is one example

www.youtube.com/watch?v=anx9giJf3MI
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:47 am

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 74):
Prebenholm, it's very easy to identify Danes trying to speak English - here is one example

Not as easy as identifying Norwegians trying to speak English though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49CkgeQVh70
 
SCQ83
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:13 am

LAS for Europeans is not necessarily about casinos.

Las Vegas in addition to an odd, unique city in the world, is a gateway to the Grand Canyon and to typical road trip to California through the Death Valley.

Flying to LAS, LAX and OAK makes a lot of sense for Norwegian and those types of tourists who travel on their own (booking hotels through search engines) and want more flexibility.
 
r2rho
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 76):
LAS for Europeans is not necessarily about casinos.

Las Vegas in addition to an odd, unique city in the world, is a gateway to the Grand Canyon and to typical road trip to California through the Death Valley.

Flying to LAS, LAX and OAK makes a lot of sense for Norwegian and those types of tourists who travel on their own (booking hotels through search engines) and want more flexibility.

Exactly. Europeans will usually combine a few days in Vegas with other places such as Grand Canyon, LA, SF, Death Valley, Yosemite, ... DY now covers all three vertices of this triangle, and since you can book flights separately, unlike with legacy carriers, you can take the flight dates and airports that best suit your road trip. A very interesting proposition.
 
Cory6188
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:13 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 73):
And BTW, how exactly do you recognize a Dane when he speaks English better than most Englishmen?

Point taken, but LEGO is actually one of my main clients at work -- I've gotten pretty good at recognizing a Danish accent by this point. Now, if someone were Norwegian or Swedish, I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference.   Regardless, it's definitely not an American English accent.
 
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enilria
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 3):
Quoting FlyingHollander (Reply 5):
Quoting fly2yyz (Reply 8):
Quoting EBGflyer (Reply 11):
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 12):
Quoting saleya22r (Reply 14):

Despite the points made, I don't see STX working. STT maybe. Tourist infrastructure on STX is much more limited. Also, don't believe the major cruises offer embarkation at STX even though it is a stop.
 
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saleya22r
Posts: 180
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RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:59 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 79):
Also, don't believe the major cruises offer embarkation at STX even though it is a stop.

That's exactly what I believe too. You just can't board where you wish.

The clientele choosing DY do have a budget, high season accommodation in decent places is not cheap on St Thomas for example. Can you make a better deal on St Croix? What about Puerto Rico and San Juan?
 
airbazar
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

RE: Norwegian Announces New Routes!

Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 79):
Despite the points made, I don't see STX working. STT maybe.

It all depends on the purpose of the flight. If it's a seasonal route in partnership with some tour operator that guarantees them seats, then yes it will work. If it's a stand alone regular schedule to go year round, then I don't think it will succeed.

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