Dallas
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Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:44 pm

The last I saw was this article from about a month ago, which had DL putting pressure on the City of Dallas, as well as involving the federal courts:

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...uthwests-gates-at-love-field.html/

Have there been any updates since? July 6th is about 2.5 months away and I noticed DL is still selling seats.
 
airliner371
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:46 am

Haven't heard any new news. Southwest has made it clear that they believe they have the right to the 18 gates they now lease/sublease.

I'm convinced Delta will sell tickets until the day the city drags them out.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:17 am

My prediction is that this is going to get very ugly, for a very long time.
Or, Southwest wil just hand Delta a huge wad of cash to shut up.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2):
Or, Southwest wil just hand Delta a huge wad of cash to shut up.

LOL, it worked on United! I'd be surprised if DL took any amount of cash from WN, they're in the fight to fight.

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 1):
I'm convinced Delta will sell tickets until the day the city drags them out.

Why shouldn't they? Passengers are still flying DL to DAL and want to continue to do so.

I hope they do take it to court and get the entire DAL nonsense thrown out.
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jc2354
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:25 pm

I know this may seem like a stupid question. But, does anybody know how WN, DL, DAL, City of Dallas, the DOT and whats left of the Wright Amendment, define the term "gate"? In any legal dispute, something as simple as a misplaced comma, can change the definition. E.G.:

Is a gate an area where an aircraft parks with a jetway?
Is a gate an area where passengers board and deplane on the ramp adjacent to a terminal/concourse?
Is a gate an area where an aircraft is remotely parked on the ramp, and passengers are bussed to/from the gate?


etc. you get the idea.
If not now, then when?
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 4):


Is a gate an area where an aircraft parks with a jetway?
Is a gate an area where passengers board and deplane on the ramp adjacent to a terminal/concourse?
Is a gate an area where an aircraft is remotely parked on the ramp, and passengers are bussed to/from the gate?

yes, yes and no. 20 gates, no hardstands, no bussing. There IS a clause which states that new entrants shall be "reasonably accommodated" or some vague term. I'm no lawyer, but I think if DL wants to press the issue in court, they should be able to stay somehow.
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SWADawg
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:36 pm

GK was asked this question today by Terry Maxon of the DMN and GK basically said that WN will be using all of "their" 18 gates to operate the published flight schedule in August. He went on to say that if DL still refused to leave after the sublease was up that it would be up to the City of Dallas to try to find a way to accommodate them. Reading the tea leaves that might suggest that DL is going to have to try to make a deal with VX to partially use one of their gates, or pack their stuff and leave DAL at the end of July.

[Edited 2015-04-23 14:38:32]
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
SWADawg
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:44 pm

One other observation that I've certainly noticed now that the LFMP is largely complete is that the City has detached the three Jetways that were being used by both UA and DL over in the old Concourse, but they haven't even begun to think about demolishing it yet. It does make you wonder if the City is hedging their bets that a future deal might be struck to either modify or eliminate the current 20 gate cap. Adding three or four jetways back to an existing Concourse could probably be accomplished in a matter of weeks if your picking up what I'm throwing down.  

[Edited 2015-04-23 14:45:13]
My posts are my opinion only and do not reflect the views of Southwest Airlines
 
AA737-823
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 3):
LOL, it worked on United!

EXACTLY!

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
I'm no lawyer, but I think if DL wants to press the issue in court, they should be able to stay somehow.

EXACTLY!

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 6):
Reading the tea leaves that might suggest that DL is going to have to try to make a deal with VX to partially use one of their gates, or pack their stuff and leave DAL at the end of July.

VX is using the heck out of their gates; I see no reason why the "underdog" should be forced to pay the price of competition while King Southwest continues to rule Love like a twisted sadist. Except for, of course, the fact that WN has ahold of the city of Dallas by the juevos.
 
freakyrat
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:18 am

Here are a few things I learned when flying out of Love on Seaport to Hot Springs a few weeks ago.

Because of the way the agreement to phase out the Wright Amendment went with the terminal limitation of 20 gates.
Seaport Airlines is forced to use a gate which they share with VX even though they technically do not have to use the terminal or TSA and could very well just use an FBO at DAL.

DGS (Delta Ground Services) is ground servicing for VX at DAL. An interesting equation.
 
n471wn
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):

VX is using the heck out of their gates; I see no reason why the "underdog" should be forced to pay the price of competition while King Southwest continues to rule Love like a twisted sadist. Except for, of course, the fact that WN has ahold of the city of Dallas by the juevos.

Kind of like AA controlling DFW
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:50 am

Lets face it southwest is the premier customer and local hometown airline. Delta has very little chance of winning this one if the airport or local government will be the ones deciding. We all know the airports show special treatment to the carriers they care about even if they are not suppose to.

Delta will probably just move these passengers over to DFW flights, and offer refunds to anyone who wants them.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:58 am

The saddest part about all of this is, the Metroplex market is plenty big and vigorous for all comers to make a go of it here, at either airport. The continued artificial limitations of the allegedly repealed WA are a joke. Either the WA is totally gone, or it isn't. There should be facilities available for whatever airline service at whatever airport that the market will bear. I mean, who is afraid of what?

[Edited 2015-04-23 19:00:44]

[Edited 2015-04-23 19:01:14]

[Edited 2015-04-23 19:37:50]
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AA737-823
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:08 am

Quoting n471wn (Reply 10):
Kind of like AA controlling DFW

No need to defend WN. I like WN.

But let's face it- AA competes with 31 other airlines at DFW (I counted via Wikipedia, though the exact number is arguable, based on express versus mainline, etc).
Southwest competes with.... Virgin. That's it.

Unless Delta stays.

Southwest loves to be the competitor; they do NOT seem to enjoy being the victim of competition.
 
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mayor
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:41 am

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 4):

Is a gate an area where an aircraft is remotely parked on the ramp, and passengers are bussed to/from the gate?

Not allowed, I don't believe.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
Delta has very little chance of winning this one if the airport or local government will be the ones deciding.

Seems to me that it was the local government that messed this up in the first place.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
airliner371
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 8):
VX is using the heck out of their gates

WN will be using them just as much (10 flights per gate).

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
Southwest competes with.... Virgin.

And AA, and the 31 other airlines at DFW.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):

Delta has very little chance of winning this one if the airport or local government will be the ones deciding.

Seems to me that it was the local government that messed this up in the first place.

If I was the City of Dallas, I wouldn't want to waste tax payer money fighting Delta in court. Even if the City wants DL out, I have serious doubts that they'd win an expensive lawsuit. If DL doesn't like the outcome, it could go to an even higher court where the city will have little say.

For the City, it's a far easier and cheaper solution to force WN to let DL use one of their gates. WN won't be happy but does that justify wasting millions in court to end up with the same outcome?
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LoneStarMike
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 4):
But, does anybody know how WN, DL, DAL, City of Dallas, the DOT and whats left of the Wright Amendment, define the term "gate"?

In the agreement signed by all 5 parties it stipulates that only 20 gates* can be used and the agreement clarifies what is meant by "gates."

Quote:
*Airlines may not subdivide a gate. A gate shall consist of one passenger hold room and one passenger loading jet bridge supporting one aircraft parking space and no hardstand operations shall be permitted.

LoneStarMike
 
alfa164
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
Southwest competes with.... Virgin.

And AA, and the 31 other airlines at DFW.

Give me a break!    There are times when Southwest contends that Love Field is a completely different market, and is no way a competitor to DFW... but when the other point of view suits its position, it claims they are competitors.

Either they should decide whether Love appeals to a completely different market... or not.
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AA737-823
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:21 am

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):
And AA, and the 31 other airlines at DFW.

Allow me:

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 18):
Give me a break!    There are times when Southwest contends that Love Field is a completely different market, and is no way a competitor to DFW... but when the other point of view suits its position, it claims they are competitors.

Hear, hear.


In any case, this thread is supposed to be about DELTA at Love Field, rather than Southwest. Pardon me for allowing myself to be sidetracked by N471WN.

As far as the topic goes, the verbiage states that new entrants must be accommodated. While you folks who believe that Southwest should be allowed to crush any other airline at Love Field 'just because' will disagree for blatantly invalid reasons, it's quite clear that if Delta takes the thing to court, they'll win. Even though they have very weak ground to stand on, when it comes to claiming a "right" to any gates.
 
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:38 am

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 12):
The saddest part about all of this is, the Metroplex market is plenty big and vigorous for all comers to make a go of it here, at either airport. The continued artificial limitations of the allegedly repealed WA are a joke. Either the WA is totally gone, or it isn't. There should be facilities available for whatever airline service at whatever airport that the market will bear. I mean, who is afraid of what?

Winner!!!

I don't get why some airlines won't open up FTW or another Dallas area airport (is the former Navy Dallas airfield long enough or in servicable shape?). There's PLENTY of room in the Metroplex to go around.
 
gen2stew
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):


AMEN!

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):

Local government messed up when the intent of the agreement was circumvented by WN getting additional gates.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 19):
While you folks who believe that Southwest should be allowed to crush any other airline at Love Field 'just because' will disagree for blatantly invalid reasons, it's quite clear that if Delta takes the thing to court, they'll win.

But what is a "win?" Given Southwest's quite high utilization, I'm not sure a win means that WN loses gates, which seems to be what you want.
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Dallas
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:36 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 19):
As far as the topic goes, the verbiage states that new entrants must be accommodated. While you folks who believe that Southwest should be allowed to crush any other airline at Love Field 'just because' will disagree for blatantly invalid reasons, it's quite clear that if Delta takes the thing to court, they'll win. Even though they have very weak ground to stand on, when it comes to claiming a "right" to any gates.

The verbiage needs to be adjusted or eliminated IMO. When the economy/ industry is struggling (like in 2002-2011), you see many airlines pulling back operations (Delta de-hubbed DFW, AA reducing DAL service, AA & DL leaving and coming back to DAL).

Let's say now with the 20-gate cap, VX and DL leave DAL, and WN decides to fully utilize those two gates and expand DAL service, in effect getting all 20 gates. Eventually the economy and industry will recover, like it is today, and only then will carriers want to come back to operate out of DAL. So does that mean WN needs to be punished to make room for new carriers who left and came back, which in turn will mean WN needs to decrease their service? This seems unfair as WN has stayed, improved, and grew DAL for 40+ years, and now is being forced to make room for competitors, which means WN will have to reduce its own schedule.

Four thoughts:
1- Remove or modify the verbiage pertaining to new entrants from the Agreement
2- Remove the gate-cap, or increase it to 26-32
3- DL had the chance to be part of the Agreement back in 2005-06 and had no interest (economy was bad and they were leaving DFW). Hold them accountable for this.
4- What seems like a win-win for all parties would be to have WN operate the 20 gates at the new terminal, and have VX & DL operate the 3-4 gates at the old terminal. It avoids all lawsuits and gives DL & VX their own terminal and security checkpoint. Maybe they could expand that terminal and add a few more gates?
 
txjim
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:50 pm

Report yesterday in the Dallas Business Journal indicates a 90% load factor for WN at DAL, quotes Kelly as saying " We will be very busy and fully utilizing our 18 gates.”

http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/bl...actors-top-90-percent-for-new.html
 
ScottB
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:36 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 5):
There IS a clause which states that new entrants shall be "reasonably accommodated" or some vague term. I'm no lawyer, but I think if DL wants to press the issue in court, they should be able to stay somehow.

The actual legislation passed by Congress to modify the Wright Amendment, though, directs that the existing lease agreements (including their usage/accommodation provisions) are to be honored -- and Federal Law enacted by Congress is likely to take precedence over DOT regulations.

Quoting SWADawg (Reply 7):
It does make you wonder if the City is hedging their bets that a future deal might be struck to either modify or eliminate the current 20 gate cap. Adding three or four jetways back to an existing Concourse could probably be accomplished in a matter of weeks if your picking up what I'm throwing down.

Yeah, I was thinking the very same, especially in light of the fact that AA's new management had stated they were disappointed about having to give up their two gates at DAL as part of the concessions made for the merger with US. I could see a scenario where the "five parties" agree to modify the gate cap to 25 to 30 gates, with AA being granted a lease for two to five of those gates.

To some degree, I think AA "wins" when a carrier like VX shifts from DFW to DAL since they no longer face direct competition, and I can easily see B6 jumping over to DAL. Capacity deployed by DL at DAL is likely capacity they won't be sending to DFW.

With a modest expansion of the gate cap, I think all parties can win -- as long as AA can extract a commitment from WN to not grow beyond the 20 gates in the new passenger concourse.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
4- What seems like a win-win for all parties would be to have WN operate the 20 gates at the new terminal, and have VX & DL operate the 3-4 gates at the old terminal. It avoids all lawsuits and gives DL & VX their own terminal and security checkpoint. Maybe they could expand that terminal and add a few more gates?

  
 
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mayor
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:17 pm

Quoting Gen2stew (Reply 21):
Quoting mayor (Reply 14):

Local government messed up when the intent of the agreement was circumvented by WN getting additional gates.

My point was, that Dallas mayor was supporting DL, telling them that they could stay, while the head of the aviation dept. was supporting having DL be removed. Who's in charge, here?

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
3- DL had the chance to be part of the Agreement back in 2005-06 and had no interest (economy was bad and they were leaving DFW). Hold them accountable for this.

Just about the time they went into bankruptcy, also........there were many decisions that were made by the creditor's committee that DL's management would just as soon not have been made IMO.

[Edited 2015-04-24 09:24:27]
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
milesrich
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:44 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 20):
I don't get why some airlines won't open up FTW or another Dallas area airport (is the former Navy Dallas airfield long enough or in servicable shape?). There's PLENTY of room in the Metroplex to go around.

The business center of the Metroplex is still Big D. Ft. Worth will always be "Cowtown". Meacham Field will never be used for commercial fllights in any number. Love Field is almost a fetish to long time citizens of Dallas. It is right down the street from the most residential areas of the city of Dallas. It is close to downtown Dallas. Addison Airport is a great location but there is no way they would ever allow commercial flights into there. Love Field will have to expand. They can slot control it but the idea of restraining trade and creating a monopoly for WN will never fly in the courts, NEVER.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:19 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
But what is a "win?" Given Southwest's quite high utilization, I'm not sure a win means that WN loses gates, which seems to be what you want.

It's a win for Delta, which is what Delta cares about, and a win for passengers, because COMPETITION was (supposedly) the name of the game. Just ask Southwest- they love to compete. Sometimes.
I'm not, actually, desiring that WN should lose gates at Love. Except that they AGREED in the agreement to SIXTEEN... not eighteen. So, I suppose that I am. But really, I think the gate cap should be eliminated. It's really just Wright Amendment 3.0.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
So does that mean WN needs to be punished to make room for new carriers who left and came back,

No, but carriers who want to come back shouldn't be punished, either.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
This seems unfair as WN has stayed, improved, and grew DAL for 40+ years

Yes yes, saint Southwest, who conveniently expanded a deserted facility at great personal sacrifice, martyr, yadda yadda, heard it before.
Look, I love Southwest, and fly them when I can (which isn't often, now that I'm in Alaska and no longer in Dallas). But let's be realistic about their business model.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
2- Remove the gate-cap, or increase it to 26-32

BINGO. We have a winner.
The gate cap is only in place to ensure Southwest has enough facility to NOT move to DFW.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
4- What seems like a win-win for all parties would be to have WN operate the 20 gates at the new terminal, and have VX & DL operate the 3-4 gates at the old terminal. It avoids all lawsuits and gives DL & VX their own terminal and security checkpoint. Maybe they could expand that terminal and add a few more gates?

It wouldn't avoid the lawsuits. First off, those gates must be demolished, just as the Legend Airlines terminal was. Secondly, you're going to build a fantastic (and it really is fantastic) new terminal, then force the hipster airline into the ghetto hallway? Not gonna happen.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
DL had the chance to be part of the Agreement back in 2005-06 and had no interest (economy was bad and they were leaving DFW). Hold them accountable for this.

Firstly, it should be pointed out that Delta served Love Field far more reliably than any other carrier, save UA and WN. AA was hit and miss. But Delta operated out of the Legend terminal for a while, then moved into AA's illegally constructed gates. They did take a hiatus, but have served Love continuously since before the agreement was reached, I believe.
Hold them accountable? Only if you're going to hold WN accountable for agreeing to 16 gates and then demanding/buying into 18. That was complete BS. With the amount of cash WN supposedly agreed to pay UA for the ten year lease, they could have knocked down Love Field and rebuilt it to their specification... nearly TWICE.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
Look, I love Southwest, and fly them when I can (which isn't often, now that I'm in Alaska and no longer in Dallas). But let's be realistic about their business model.

It's hard to be realistic about their business model when you are ignoring HOU and MDW, both of which have very nice new terminals where WN is NOT hoarding gates.

We can--and probably should, in the context of this thread--discuss WN's DAL strategy. But, their DAL strategy is pretty clearly not their business model.
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par13del
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:52 pm

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 12):
The saddest part about all of this is, the Metroplex market is plenty big and vigorous for all comers to make a go of it here, at either airport.

Debatable by those who state the intent was to have one facility........

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
But let's face it- AA competes with 31 other airlines at DFW

Whose fault is that if it is a problem....after WN won in court DAL was available to all carriers who signed the original bond agreement. Legislation to make it difficult to use the airport was the preferred option to maintain DFW and eliminate competition.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
So does that mean WN needs to be punished to make room for new carriers who left and came back,

No, but carriers who want to come back shouldn't be punished, either.

So if the city deliberately limits their gates and assigns them all, who get's punished if additional carriers require access?

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
BINGO. We have a winner.
The gate cap is only in place to ensure Southwest has enough facility to NOT move to DFW.

According to the documents, the gate cap was put in place to ensure that WN could not expand to any significant degree at DAL or any airport other than DFW in the region.
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Polot
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
It wouldn't avoid the lawsuits. First off, those gates must be demolished, just as the Legend Airlines terminal was. Secondly, you're going to build a fantastic (and it really is fantastic) new terminal, then force the hipster airline into the ghetto hallway? Not gonna happen.

There really is no way for anyone to be happy without some lawsuit being filed, whether that be by DL, WN, or someone else. As I have said many times in these discussions though, I'm sure WN would be ecstatic if DL challenged the gate-cap and won.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
The gate cap is only in place to ensure Southwest has enough facility to NOT move to DFW.

Huh, how does a cap help there? The gate cap was put in place, along with the restriction on international flights, to limit WN's operations at DAL (and hopefully make them move over to DFW if they want to start international flights from the Dallas area) but to still provide enough gates that WN would be willing to compromise and accept the deal.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):
They did take a hiatus, but have served Love continuously since before the agreement was reached, I believe.
DL did not return to DAL until Summer 2009 with flights to MEM, 3 years after the agreement was made (ATL flights started fall 2012). That was one of the reasons why they were not a party to the agreement- they didn't have any gates or operations at the contested airport.

[Edited 2015-04-24 13:13:19]

[Edited 2015-04-24 13:13:49]
 
Okie
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 31):
There really is no way for anyone to be happy without some lawsuit being filed, whether that be by DL, WN, or someone else. As I have said many times in these discussions though, I'm sure WN would be ecstatic if DL challenged the gate-cap and won.

They would still have to Amend the re-re-rewrite of the Wright Amendment.
Besides the cities and entities involved they would have to deal with the Nimby's as there is a daily aircraft movement clause, noise and curfew involved as well in the agreement.

Here is what the DOJ said when DL was applying for gates at DAL that AA was forced to give up because of the US/AA merger. (out of context but you get the idea)

“divesting assets to Delta would fail to address the harm arising from the merger and would be inconsistent with the goals that the remedy seeks to achieve.” In short, the DOJ is not considering Delta’s proposal because it is another network carrier.

Simply put the DOJ does not want DL to have gates at DAL for the same reason AA had to forfeit them.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 19):
As far as the topic goes, the verbiage states that new entrants must be accommodated

Only if there are available gate times.
WN to this point has been following that to the letter. Now they are going to be using the gates as they ramp up.

DL can spin it to the cows come home but I think I can see Bessy.

Okie
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:10 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 32):
Simply put the DOJ does not want DL to have gates at DAL for the same reason AA had to forfeit them.

The DOJ is supposed to be in place to ensure competition. That is the exact opposite! AA and DL should both have gates at DAL and the entire BS agreement needs to be thrown out. I firmly expect to see this go to court over the summer. Should be fun to watch too.
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Okie
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 33):
The DOJ is supposed to be in place to ensure competition

Easy there, don't shoot the messenger.



Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 33):
That is the exact opposite! AA and DL should both have gates at DAL and the entire BS agreement needs to be thrown out

Federal Law not easily changed.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 33):
I firmly expect to see this go to court over the summer. Should be fun to watch too.

So far every participant is following the law. DL does not want to comply. Yes, it will be interesting if DL can force a city to violate DOJ and Federal Law.

My take and a guess only, is that the DOJ considered DAL-DFW as a single market then determined the big three merged UA/CO, NW/DL and US/AA to be "network carriers"
In that sense they were trying to keep DAL as a niche airport with non network merged carriers.
Assuming the rest would play fair at a niche airport.
I am not sure they completely thought the process through but one thing for sure it is looking like there will eventually be no network carriers at DAL which appears to have been the DOJ plan.

Right now WN is forced by the agreement not to do anything about expanding DAL beyond the agreed gate limit.
I think WN will be happy to let DL push to reopen the agreement to add more gates to DAL and let DL face the parties involved along and do the leg work with the Nimby's to expand the airport.


Okie
 
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enilria
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 18):
but when the other point of view suits its position, it claims they are competitors.
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 13):
Southwest competes with.... Virgin.

And AA, and the 31 other airlines at DFW.

If there was nothing unique about the DAL market vs the DFW market then a) they should just have shutdown the DAL airport for pax service and b) nobody would be fighting to get into DAL. The argument they are the exact same market is made garbage by the intensity of desire by the airlines to get into/stay at DAL.
 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
If there was nothing unique about the DAL market vs the DFW market then a) they should just have shutdown the DAL airport for pax service and b) nobody would be fighting to get into DAL. The argument they are the exact same market is made garbage by the intensity of desire by the airlines to get into/stay at DAL.

Well stated! Funny how some people can miss the obvious.
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par13del
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
The argument they are the exact same market is made garbage by the intensity of desire by the airlines to get into/stay at DAL.
Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 36):
Well stated! Funny how some people can miss the obvious.

I think it was about creating and or re-shaping the market, the plan whether feasible or not was all about having one massive airport in the metroplex - DFW -, if they were successful in getting DAL closed there would be no intensity by anyone to build a new airport.
Much as I hated the way it was done, see Megis field in ORD, gone overnight, all the user's intensity went for nought.
 
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enilria
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:09 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 37):
if they were successful in getting DAL closed there would be no intensity by anyone to build a new airport.

But that isn't what happened and DAL is the preferred airport for a significant % of the population...and thus why airline's want in.

BTW, I posted a thread 2 years ago where I predicted that this whole thing would degenerate into a bunch of lawsuits by airlines locked out by this super-anti-competitive deal and was pilloried because "it's an act of Congress" and "the law is the law". Look where we are now...
 
cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting n471wn (Reply 10):
Kind of like AA controlling DFW

DFW is not a restricted airport and all airlines who wish to fly from DFW are welcome including Southwest.

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 17):
In the agreement signed by all 5 parties it stipulates that only 20 gates* can be used and the agreement clarifies what is meant by "gates."

Southwest did not have to agree to the compromise. The twenty gate limit and the amount of gates assigned to each carrier were meant to limit other airlines flying from Love Field. Southwest got everything it wanted out of the agreement including the gate limit. That way WN can constrain competition at Love Field.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 25):
With a modest expansion of the gate cap, I think all parties can win -- as long as AA can extract a commitment from WN to not grow beyond the 20 gates in the new passenger concourse.

A commitment from WN concerning Love Field is pointless. Why should the other airlines, cities and airport boards trust them? Southwest’s interference with the US/AA merger is the reason why AA is no longer at Love Field. Southwest has taken steps to override the 16 gate limit they agreed to for themselves at Love Field.

Quoting par13del (Reply 30):
According to the documents, the gate cap was put in place to ensure that WN could not expand to any significant degree at DAL or any airport other than DFW in the region.I guess we mean glass half full or glass half empty.


What documents are you referring to?

FYI, the limitations placed on Southwest and AA having to give up gates at Love Field if they started service from other airports in the region is a protection for the City of Dallas to make sure that Southwest stays at Love Field long enough to pay off the debt incurred to update the airport.

Quoting Okie (Reply 34):
Right now WN is forced by the agreement not to do anything about expanding DAL beyond the agreed gate limit.I think WN will be happy to let DL push to reopen the agreement to add more gates to DAL and let DL face the parties involved along and do the leg work with the Nimby's to expand the airport.

Gee if the current law is struck down by the courts Love Field goes back to the original 7 state limitations. WN again got what they wanted in the compromise. The gate limit keeps other airlines out.

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
If there was nothing unique about the DAL market vs the DFW market then a) they should just have shutdown the DAL airport for pax service and b) nobody would be fighting to get into DAL. The argument they are the exact same market is made garbage by the intensity of desire by the airlines to get into/stay at DAL.

Remember the Federal Courts ruled that long as the airport received FAA funding the airport had to stay open to airline service. Wouldn’t it be ironic that the same court logic that enabled Southwest to stay at Love Field forces WN to share DAL with Delta and any other airline that wants to fly there.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
B757capt
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 33):

It is amazing how forcing AA to give up its two gates to another airline sparked competition? I still don't get that one,

What about the city of Dallas? Aren't they at some fault here? Aren't they the ones that signed off on the transfer of the UA gates?
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blueflyer
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:03 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 40):
What about the city of Dallas? Aren't they at some fault here? Aren't they the ones that signed off on the transfer of the UA gates?

The city can't be capricious in its actions. It has approved similar transactions in the past (American subleasing their gates to Delta for example) so it couldn't refuse to sign off on this sublease without a substantive reason.

The only wiggle room that I see contractually is that the repeal agreement gives Southwest exactly 16 gates on a preferential use basis. One might argue that any additional gate must therefore be on a shared use basis.
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Okie
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:01 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 41):
The only wiggle room that I see contractually is that the repeal agreement gives Southwest exactly 16 gates on a preferential use basis.

16 gates is all WN has by the agreement precisely and exactly.

UA/CO subleased their 2 gates to WN, a second transaction, the gates still belong to UA/CO.
In spite of all the rhetoric towards WN it was UA/CO that subleased the gates.
This appears to be a blow toward NW/DL by UA/CO, more so than anything involving WN, although I suspect WN is happy.
We know that UA/CO made a unusual schedule with extended gate times to keep from gate sharing with DL before the sublease.
UA/CO could have returned the lease to DAL for open bidding or subleased for a profit to any airline with the city's approval.

Okie

[Edited 2015-04-26 14:13:18]
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:16 pm

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 15):

And AA, and the 31 other airlines at DFW.

So WN crying and screaming about LGA and DCA slots is crap then. Send them to JFK and let them stay at BWI and give Delta and American all the slots WN got in the slot swap back right?

Quoting Dallas (Reply 23):
3- DL had the chance to be part of the Agreement back in 2005-06 and had no interest (economy was bad and they were leaving DFW). Hold them accountable for this.

Oh yes, lets hold an airline accountable for trying to, you know, not become Eastern or Pan Am.
That is what we should do, force airlines to burn money or "hold them accountable"

That is complete horse crap.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 28):

Hold them accountable? Only if you're going to hold WN accountable for agreeing to 16 gates and then demanding/buying into 18. That was complete BS. With the amount of cash WN supposedly agreed to pay UA for the ten year lease, they could have knocked down Love Field and rebuilt it to their specification... nearly TWICE.

exactly.

Quoting Okie (Reply 32):

Simply put the DOJ does not want DL to have gates at DAL for the same reason AA had to forfeit them.

yet allowing WN to control 90% of DAL gates is increasing competition.

 
Quoting Okie (Reply 34):

My take and a guess only, is that the DOJ considered DAL-DFW as a single market then determined the big three merged UA/CO, NW/DL and US/AA to be "network carriers"

More like WN is Obama's baby and the DOJ/DOT is going to let them get away with murder.

Can you tell me any other airline that would be allowed 90% of slots/gates at an airport restricted like DAL is? Could Delta hold 90% of the slots at LGA? American at DCA?
No. Would never happen. The DOT/DOJ would straight up take them from those carriers. WN on the other hand...."oh its DAL/DFW is a single market"
What crap.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:29 pm

DL1011man----Can you tell me any airline who has voiced (and even hired legal opposition) to airlines operating flights at a secondary ATL airport? is DL so lily white in every aspect?

[Edited 2015-04-26 14:31:11]
 
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enilria
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:42 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 39):
Remember the Federal Courts ruled that long as the airport received FAA funding the airport had to stay open to airline service. Wouldn’t it be ironic that the same court logic that enabled Southwest to stay at Love Field forces WN to share DAL with Delta and any other airline that wants to fly there.

The whole thing is horribly anti-competitive. If the Congress passes a law guaranteeing one company a virtual monopoly, the Supreme Court should strike it down.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 45):
The whole thing is horribly anti-competitive

Yes, but DL is good at working out "deals". They should go to VX and offer a swap if DAL is so important to them. They could give VX one of their prized close in ATL gates (not their junked ones) so VX could enter the ATL market in their style. then VX could give up one of their DAL gates to DL. Fair exchange?
 
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par13del
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
Lets face it southwest is the premier customer and local hometown airline.

Hmmm, does make you wonder how they got the city to put the initial WA in, then got them to put a revised one in that not only limits them to 16 gates but reduces the airport to 20 gates total from a possible max of 32.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 39):
Southwest got everything it wanted out of the agreement including the gate limit. That way WN can constrain competition at Love Field.

Guess they should have stayed with the initial WA since they knew not what they had, an airport with more than the now 16 gates and no competition.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:19 pm

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 44):
DL1011man----Can you tell me any airline who has voiced (and even hired legal opposition) to airlines operating flights at a secondary ATL airport? is DL so lily white in every aspect?

Delta has. And they should.

Why does ATL need another airport? Why should I (a Georgia tax payer) pay for a ULCC airport that would basically be only for G4 because they don't want to fly into ATL?

ATL has plenty of space and plans to grow. When ATL becomes congested then a second airport should be looked at (and in a logical location. Not out in the middle of friggin no where)


Do you have a point to this though? Cause your just trying to compare apples to airplanes. Let me know when Delta has control over 90% of the gates and slots in ATL then we can compare it to WN at DAL.
 
ridgid727
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 48):

Do you have a point to this though? Cause your just trying to compare apples to airplanes. Let me know when Delta has control over 90% of the gates and slots in ATL then we can compare it to WN at DAL.

It going that DL thinks they should come to the party late and get everything they want. A former bankrupt bully left Dallas with their tail betwqeen their legs, then want back in? They are a bully and its really fantastic that WN calls them out on their littler games. They will probably lose. I hope so

Let Love Field remain free of former bankrupt behemoths.

[Edited 2015-04-26 16:37:59]

[Edited 2015-04-26 16:38:31]

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