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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 2:35 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 97):
Now I like WN, and fly them several times a year but the whole Love Field/Wright Amendment soap opera has stunk to high heaven since deregulation.
Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 99):
The problem could be solved relatively easily. Any artificial gate limitations below a high-demand airport's capacity are anticompetitive and should be removed. Throw out the anti-competitive, corrupt 'Re-Wright' that still allows this limitation, go by the 2001 master plan, and build enough new gates to accommodate Delta, additional capacity for Southwest, and anyone else.

Hear, hear!! It's amazing how organizations, run by allegedly educated and intelligent people, completely ignore common sense.
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mayor
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 96):

And no matter what the DOT thinks it can and cannot tell others to do, a judge will likely get the final say in this case. Southwest contends that the DOT's letter constituted essentially a non-binding suggestion, and not a legally-binding directive order, and has asked a federal court for an interpretation as such.

If the letter had said "should be allowed to continue operating there"........but it doesn't....it says "had to be allowed to continue operating there". I could see if the wording was the former, but not as it was stated.


I guess WN is telling the court how they should interpret things, now.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
commavia
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 3:27 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 101):
If the letter had said "should be allowed to continue operating there"........but it doesn't....it says "had to be allowed to continue operating there". I could see if the wording was the former, but not as it was stated.

The fact that the DOT's letter includes words like "our views" and "we are providing this guidance" doesn't exactly make it sound like an iron-clad directive. And in any event, Southwest's court filing quotes the DOT's own letter in recognizing that the DOT's competition plan policy requires that, "if a requesting carrier is unable to arrange a voluntary accommodation with a signatory carrier, the City will accommodate the requesting carrier to the extent possible given the current gate usage, without impacting current or already-announced, for-sale services by the signatory carriers" (emphasis mine).

Ultimately, the question isn't whether the DOT believes its letter is a legally-binding directive, but whether the DOT has the authority to make such a legally-binding directive given that, by the letter of its own "competition plan policy," DAL signatory carrier Southwest is under no obligation to accommodate another carrier if it would "[impact] current or already-announced, for-sale services," as accommodating Delta at DAL clearly would. Therein lies the crux of the issue that the courts will ultimately have to adjudicate.

Quoting mayor (Reply 101):
I guess WN is telling the court how they should interpret things, now.

Wouldn't be the first time.

Southwest is a profit-seeking corporation just like Delta, and every other major airline or other major company, and as such it is exercising its right to use the courts to advance its economic interests. Delta is doing the exact same thing. We'll see what happens.

[Edited 2015-05-17 20:28:15]
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 4:13 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 102):

Ultimately, the question isn't whether the DOT believes its letter is a legally-binding directive, but whether the DOT has the authority to make such a legally-binding directive given that, by the letter of its own "competition plan policy," DAL signatory carrier Southwest is under no obligation to accommodate another carrier if it would "[impact] current or already-announced, for-sale services," as accommodating Delta at DAL clearly would. Therein lies the crux of the issue that the courts will ultimately have to adjudicate.

No one really knows how the court will rule, but where the disconnect is this argument is that WN service was not already announced. The leased the gates from UA knowing Delta was using the gates and subsequently announced service to squeeze them out.

Personally, I think WN should be able to use the gates however they want within the terms of their lease. I do not think a carrier should be forced to accommodate another carrier if it is not part of the lease agreement. However, I also think it was rather stupid of the city (and DOJ) to allow UA to sublease to WN.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 20):
Winner!!!

I don't get why some airlines won't open up FTW or another Dallas area airport (is the former Navy Dallas airfield long enough or in servicable shape?). There's PLENTY of room in the Metroplex to go around.

I think the next airport that is ripe for commercial service in the metroplex
is the McKinney Airport up in Collin County. The way that part of the area
is growing, it could become another "SNA" type airport.
 
Dallas
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 8:41 pm

Dumb question, but if WN has to allow DL to use its gate, does DL have to pay WN to use it? Just trying to understand how it works. It would be odd if WN didn't get any $$ from DL seeing that they paid UA a good chunk of change for the two gates, that now they fully can't use.

Furthermore, what power would WN have with DL in regard to its turn/ block times? What would prevent DL from scheduling ridiculously long block times to further worsen the issue?
 
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 105):
What would prevent DL from scheduling ridiculously long block times to further worsen the issue?

Why would they?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Dallas
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 9:41 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 106):
Why would they?

If they are locking into their 4-5 flights (cannot expand), then why wouldn't they? It'd be a way to be a further thorn in the side to WN's operations, a competitor, and WN would have no say if they DOJ & DOT backed DL. WN obviously would want short block times (less impact on their operations), and DL would want long block times (block WN and help OTP/ irregular ops). Back when UA came out with their plan, I believe they had 90 minute blocks for all of their flights, which was not really practical or necessary, but to block other airlines from using the gates.
 
eugdjinn
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Mon May 18, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 76):
I don't believe that is the case at all. The wording in the Five-Party Agreement states "...Southwest Airlines shall have the preferential use of 16 gates under its existing lease to be used for passenger operations; American Airlines shall have the preferential use of 2 gates under its existing lease to be used for passenger operations; and ExpressJet Airlines, Inc. shall have the preferential use of 2 gates under its existing lease to be used for passenger operations." The arrangement between United (presumably as ExpressJet's successor under the lease) and Southwest is structured as a sublease, so they are operating under United's rights to preferential use of the gates. If ExpressJet or United had returned the gates to the City, then those gates would have become common-use. IINM, VX's operation from DAL is structured in the same way as a sublease from AA.

I keep thinking there's a bigger question hidden in this. ExpressJet owned this asset, right? So, since ExpressJet is owned by SkyWest Inc. now - did this asset transfer with the sale of ExpressJet to SkyWest? And if it did - then that would make those two gates a SkyWest asset - not a United asset to barter... wouldn't it? How exactly did that sublease get structured and is there a gotcha about to come into play?? Could it be that ExpressJet/SkyWest will show up to the party and play an ultimate trump card in which they generously allow Delta to have a gate or two at Love in exchange for a very favorable rate reset deal for all DCI flying done by the combined SkyWest Inc carriers?? In fact, could that deal include the dissolution and transfer of Endeavor? (With DL swallowing the Endeavor pilots en masse.)
 
Okie
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 12:08 am

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 108):
I keep thinking there's a bigger question hidden in this. ExpressJet owned this asset, right?

No, not even close.
The lease was held by CO which became UA after the UA/CO merger, CO and then UA could operate the gates/flights as they seemed fit within the confines of the WA.




Okie
 
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 12:15 am

Quoting Dallas (Reply 107):
It'd be a way to be a further thorn in the side to WN's operations, a competitor, and WN would have no say if they DOJ & DOT backed DL.

A thorn is right. WN would be saying "please don't throw me in that briar patch." 90 minute turns just to get even? Nobody would make money at DAL with 90 minute turns.
"You're sitting. In a chair. In the SKY!!" ~ Louis C.K.
 
texan
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 12:39 am

The issue for the City--and the reason that the City will likely force accommodation if WN and DL don't come to an agreement beforehand--is that not finding space for DL could violate the airport's grant assurances, which would leave the city open to federal challenge when the DOT has already expressed its view. Not a good position for the City to be in.

But that's why the lease agreement's terms include specific language around the DOT's letter and why WN is challenging the DOT's position.

Anyway, it will remain a fun one to watch.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
ScottB
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 2:18 am

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 108):
ExpressJet owned this asset, right? So, since ExpressJet is owned by SkyWest Inc. now - did this asset transfer with the sale of ExpressJet to SkyWest? And if it did - then that would make those two gates a SkyWest asset - not a United asset to barter... wouldn't it?

At one point, the leases were controlled by ExpressJet, but one would imagine that United gained control of the gate leases at some point in the past given that all relevant parties (United, Delta, Southwest, City of Dallas) seem to be treating United as the holder of those leases.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 105):
but if WN has to allow DL to use its gate, does DL have to pay WN to use it?

Yes, they have to pay WN a pro-rated fee for use of the gate, plus a "reasonable" administrative fee as per the leases.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 105):
Furthermore, what power would WN have with DL in regard to its turn/ block times? What would prevent DL from scheduling ridiculously long block times to further worsen the issue?

DL doesn't really have much power in that regard. WN gets to schedule the gates for its own flights and then DL has to try to fit its flights into the gaps. The City might play a role in trying to get slightly better timing for DL if they choose to.

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 99):
The problem could be solved relatively easily. Any artificial gate limitations below a high-demand airport's capacity are anticompetitive and should be removed. Throw out the anti-competitive, corrupt 'Re-Wright' that still allows this limitation, go by the 2001 master plan, and build enough new gates to accommodate Delta, additional capacity for Southwest, and anyone else.

Agreed, but WN is bound by the Five-Party Agreement to not oppose the gate cap or restrictions on international service from DAL. In the end, WN would be well-served if DL and other carriers managed to get the gate cap at DAL loosened.
 
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ADent
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 6:59 am

Quoting eugdjinn (Reply 108):
I keep thinking there's a bigger question hidden in this. ExpressJet owned this asset, right?

It is mentioned in some of the paperwork. ExpressJet was a wholly owned subsidiary of Continental. CO then held onto the gate leases when they sold off the regional. CO merged with UA, so now UA is the primary lease holder and has priority on 2 gates.

Would WN proper have accommodate DL, or would UA have to accommodate DL and then WN works it out with UA (presumably the UA gates are then less valuable to WN if WN doesn't have exclusive use)?
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 3:14 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 103):
No one really knows how the court will rule, but where the disconnect is this argument is that WN service was not already announced. The leased the gates from UA knowing Delta was using the gates and subsequently announced service to squeeze them out.

I don't see any disconnect. In all of the recent assets sales, somebody has purchased slots they are already leasing--WN and B6 bought leased DCA/LGA slots from AA and US bought leased DCA slots from DL. Why would they need to if they were somehow entitled to perpetual use of them already?

If I were WN, I'd tell DL that I if you want to use my DAL gates for 4-5 flights, it'll cost you the same number of DCA/LGA slots. Fair is fair.
 
cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 114):
If I were WN, I'd tell DL that I if you want to use my DAL gates for 4-5 flights, it'll cost you the same number of DCA/LGA slots. Fair is fair.

Funny you brought that up, if Delta loses this fight each and every time WN solicits for gates and slots at other airports you can expect the DAL gate issue to be brought up to the DOT by the airlines WN is trying get gates and or slots from.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:24 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 115):
Funny you brought that up, if Delta loses this fight each and every time WN solicits for gates and slots at other airports you can expect the DAL gate issue to be brought up to the DOT by the airlines WN is trying get gates and or slots fr

....and if WN is asking to use their scarce assets for free, they'll will have a point.
 
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 114):
US bought leased DCA slots from DL.

I thought the gates were swapped for ones at LGA?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:37 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 117):
I thought the gates were swapped for ones at LGA?

Yes. The leased slots were included in the larger transaction, but don't kid yourself that there wasn't value calculated on them.
 
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Polot
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 117):
I thought the gates were swapped for ones at LGA?

They were swapped with LGA, but DL also paid US some cash as well (as US were giving up far more LGA slots than the number of DCA slots they were receiving), $66.5 million to be exact. I think he got confused on who paid who.
 
Mir
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 116):
....and if WN is asking to use their scarce assets for free, they'll will have a point.

And if the airline in question pressured the government to cap the number of gates or slots so that only they would be using the airport, then WN would have a point.

The campaign was to "set Love free". Giving one carrier a monopoly at an airport is the opposite of setting it free. As Kelly said, D/FW does exist - WN could always move some flights over there if they feel they don't have enough room at DAL.

-Mir
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cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:52 pm



Quoting mayor (Reply 117):
....and if WN is asking to use their scarce assets for free, they'll will have a point.

Doubtful, Delta expects a free ride at DAL or any other airport.

[Edited 2015-05-19 13:53:38]

[Edited 2015-05-19 14:01:05]
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
ridgid727
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 120):
WN could always move some flights over there if they feel they don't have enough room at DAL.

I think the agreement ending the WA prohibited WN from operating at both airports. Is that why AirTran shut ops at DFW so early in the merger process.?
 
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Polot
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 122):
I think the agreement ending the WA prohibited WN from operating at both airports. Is that why AirTran shut ops at DFW so early in the merger process.?

They can operate out of both, but WN then has relinquish some of their 16 preferential leases. I forgot how many, someone else can chime in with the details.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 120):
And if the airline in question pressured the government to cap the number of gates or slots so that only they would be using the airport, then WN would have a point.

You think the gate cap was WN's idea? Really?
 
Mir
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 124):
You think the gate cap was WN's idea? Really?

I think they overwhelmingly preferred it to the alternative, yes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 121):
Doubtful, Delta expects a free ride at DAL or any other airport.

So what have they offered WN in return for use of WN's gates? And don't say pro-rated rent. That is like saying DCA slots are trading so folks don't have to pay landing fees.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:30 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 125):
I think they overwhelmingly preferred it to the alternative, yes.

Why should a gate cap proposed/supported by overwhelming majority of WN's competitors be held against WN?
 
Mir
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 127):
Why should a gate cap proposed/supported by overwhelming majority of WN's competitors be held against WN?

WN wanted a free market, did they not? Unfortunately, that means other airlines are allowed in. They should pay fair value for renting the gates, of course, but WN shouldn't be able to stop them outright.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 128):
They should pay fair value for renting the gates, of course, but WN shouldn't be able to stop them outright.

.....because that's the way it works at DCA/JFK/LGA, right? You want something someone else owns, you just have to pay for fair price for it?

[Edited 2015-05-19 16:04:23]
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 11:00 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 114):

I don't see any disconnect. In all of the recent assets sales, somebody has purchased slots they are already leasing--WN and B6 bought leased DCA/LGA slots from AA and US bought leased DCA slots from DL. Why would they need to if they were somehow entitled to perpetual use of them already?

If I were WN, I'd tell DL that I if you want to use my DAL gates for 4-5 flights, it'll cost you the same number of DCA/LGA slots. Fair is fair.

Did you bother to read the context in which that reply was made to?
It was in response to WN's pointing to language in the DOT letter.
Not sure what anything you just said has to do with that.

The issues being discussed in this thread have nothing to do with WN and DL directly.
Both companies have issues with the city of Dallas and WN possibly with the DOT.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Tue May 19, 2015 11:48 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 130):
Did you bother to read the context in which that reply was made to?

I did, but I must have missed some nuance of your point. I read it as WN was somehow disadvantaged because DL was already using the gates, which was also the case in the asset sales I mentioned.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 130):
The issues being discussed in this thread have nothing to do with WN and DL directly.

Don't agree with this one. When do airlines tussle more directly than this? DL SEA-HND wasn't a dispute with DOT, it was AA vs. DL. There is always a regulator between the parties in these spats, but that doesn't mean the two sides aren't fighting with each other.
 
cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 12:50 am

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 126):
So what have they offered WN in return for use of WN's gates? And don't say pro-rated rent. That is like saying DCA slots are trading so folks don't have to pay landing fees.


Does Southwest own Dallas Love Field?

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 127):
Why should a gate cap proposed/supported by overwhelming majority of WN's competitors be held against WN?


They agreed to the terms. Besides who benefits the most from no competition at the airport?
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
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par13del
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 125):
I think they overwhelmingly preferred it to the alternative, yes.

I really wish they had continued their push to free Luv versus settling for the DFW/DAL/AAA compromise, I list them only since they were all content with the WA they had imposed on the airport and anyone who chose to operate there.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 132):
Does Southwest own Dallas Love Field?
Quoting cjpark (Reply 132):
They agreed to the terms. Besides who benefits the most from no competition at the airport?

Good question, the cities came up with the original WA and the compromise I suspect to prevent full removal of the WA, I wish all had fought the good fight versus the convoluted compromise WA they came up with.
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting cjpark (Reply 132):
Does Southwest own Dallas Love Field?

Point? The only difference between WN@DAL and every other dominant carrier/airport is that DAL is the only one where Congress created an artificial barrier to competition. It most certainly did not do so to protect WN. Had DAL been in SD or SC or any other state without Texas' political clout, DAL would be just another airport and anet would have one less topic to constantly rehash.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 132):
Besides who benefits the most from no competition at the airport?

Again, not WN. There is no reason to think that, absent the gate cap or WA, DAL would look any different than HOU, MDW or BWI. Nothing constrains other carriers at those airports other than their unwillingness to compete with WN on its turf.

Now, WN does receive a benefit from DAL's continued existence. But rather than it being a shelter from competition, it is that the airport is vastly more conducive to WN's operation--short taxis, simple facilities, cheaper costs (at least until the terminal redo). But that is the case at plenty of airports.
.

[Edited 2015-05-20 01:30:32]
 
justplanenutz
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:54 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 133):
I really wish they had continued their push to free Luv versus settling for the DFW/DAL/AAA compromise

While that would have been my preference too, I think WN saw that the political sands were shifting and took the best deal it could get at the time (2006). While I don't really think of this as a partisan issue, there is no denying that Wright was a Democrat and repeal/modification efforts were led by Republicans (Bond, Shelby, Hensarling, Sam Johnson). Just a few months later both Houses of Congress switched hands R to D, so I am not sure anything would have happened if WN didn't take the current deal.
 
cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 135):
Point? The only difference between WN@DAL and every other dominant carrier/airport is that DAL is the only one where Congress created an artificial barrier to competition. It most certainly did not do so to protect WN. Had DAL been in SD or SC or any other state without Texas' political clout, DAL would be just another airport and anet would have one less topic to constantly rehash.

As much as many on ANET may want to believe that WN owns DAL and that WN should be able to do as it wishes at the airport including excluding other carriers the airport still belongs to the City of Dallas.

Concerning your oft repeated tripe about artificial barriers at DAL you should remember that WN chose to remain at the airport regardless of the limitations requested from Congress by the region that invested in DFW and in both instances WA1 and WA2 had a part in negotiating the limitations they would operate under at DAL. In both instances they got what they wanted.

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 135):
Again, not WN. There is no reason to think that, absent the gate cap or WA, DAL would look any different than HOU, MDW or BWI. Nothing constrains other carriers at those airports other than their unwillingness to compete with WN on its turf.
Now, WN does receive a benefit from DAL's continued existence. But rather than it being a shelter from competition, it is that the airport is vastly more conducive to WN's operation--short taxis, simple facilities, cheaper costs (at least until the terminal redo). But that is the case at plenty of airports..

Remember they agreed to the terms of the compromise, the gate limit had to have value to WN or else they would have held out for full repeal. Where is the value? No new competition, no other airlines to fowl WN’s operation at DAL or as you said compete with WN on its turf!
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 136):
Remember they agreed to the terms of the compromise, the gate limit had to have value to WN or else they would have held out for full repeal.

Why do you assume that? Perhaps WN figured that full repeal would not happen, so they took what they believed to be the best possible deal.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
cjpark
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 137):
Why do you assume that? Perhaps WN figured that full repeal would not happen, so they took what they believed to be the best possible deal.

They agreed to the terms of the compromise.
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 138):
They agreed to the terms of the compromise.

As we all do sometimes. But that in no way implies that they didn't want more. After all, WN operates at plenty of arguably peer airports with no gate constraints (HOU, MDW, OAK, etc.).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
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enilria
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:43 pm

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 134):

That's the same as saying "let's just have a dictatorship, because people would surely vote for the beloved leader anyway...so there is no reason to waste everybody's time with voting since it would surely turn out the same."
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 136):
Concerning your oft repeated tripe about artificial barriers at DAL

Ouch. Surely you can name one other airport in this nation with similar restrictions, right?

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 137):
the gate limit had to have value to WN or else they would have held out for full repeal.

I'll let Colleen Barrett answer that one:

"Given our druthers, while we would have LUVed to have gotten rid of the entire Wright Amendment all at once and sooner than later, each of the five parties (Dallas, Fort Worth, the DFW Airport, American, and Southwest) to the local agreement upon which this legislation is based had to cede some longheld positions. We also had to face the political reality that it is much easier to block legislation than pass it."

http://blog.nutsaboutsouthwest.com/w...ong-its-gone/#sthash.Rj1aSXPn.dpuf


And for grins, I'll throw this one from Herb Kelleher on the original Wright Amendment:

"It was hardly a political compromise. I was told, ‘Look, you’re an outsider and the majority leader is an insider, and Herb, you’d better take this because it’s all you’re going to get.’ I said it was a compromise in the same way that the Germans compromised on the truce at the end of World War I."

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...support-the-wright-amendment.html/
 
Dallas
Topic Author
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:37 pm

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 138):
They agreed to the terms of the compromise.

DL did not choose to be part of the compromise, and did not make a strong enough offer to UA for those two gates.

The gate cap needs to be removed and the terminal should be expanded. If that cannot happen, then DL needs to work something out with VX or leave DAL, since WN is not budging.

WN had the same opportunity as DL to get the two gates from UA, and WN made the better offer. DL should have shown interest during the compromise in 2006, or made a better offer to UA for their gates. They did neither and now feel entitled to remain at DAL, all at the expense of others who were proactive and handled their business to get gates at DAL.
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:04 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 140):
That's the same as saying "let's just have a dictatorship, because people would surely vote for the beloved leader anyway...so there is no reason to waste everybody's time with voting since it would surely turn out the same."

Huh? Not sure I get your point. While there may be little difference between a dictatorship and a single choice election, there a big difference between that and a free election that ends in a landslide. Likewise, there a big difference between artificial barriers that limit competition (that's for you CJ) and those created by market dynamics.

Make no mistake, WN is still limited in the competition can provide in the Dallas market. And it wouldn't surprise me a bit if 5-10 years down the road when locals see a much more robust/competitive/cheaper market for international service just down the road in Houston we do this all over again.
 
cjpark
Posts: 1225
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 1:46 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:11 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 142):
I'll let Colleen Barrett answer that one:

"Given our druthers, while we would have LUVed to have gotten rid of the entire Wright Amendment all at once and sooner than later, each of the five parties (Dallas, Fort Worth, the DFW Airport, American, and Southwest) to the local agreement upon which this legislation is based had to cede some longheld positions. We also had to face the political reality that it is much easier to block legislation than pass it."

They got what the wanted or they would not have agreed to the compromise

Quoting Dallas (Reply 142):
And for grins, I'll throw this one from Herb Kelleher on the original Wright Amendment:

"It was hardly a political compromise. I was told, ‘Look, you’re an outsider and the majority leader is an insider, and Herb, you’d better take this because it’s all you’re going to get.’ I said it was a compromise in the same way that the Germans compromised on the truce at the end of World War I."

Funny, here is what the late Jim Wright had to say about the Wright Amendment.

http://www.dmagazine.com/publication...moments-in-modern-dallas-history-3
"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
 
justplanenutz
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:48 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 144):
Funny, here is what the late Jim Wright had to say about the Wright Amendment.

I've read that before--I particularly like the part where he refers to himself as the "dove of peace." I'll stick with Herb's version.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6727
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 144):
Funny, here is what the late Jim Wright had to say about the Wright Amendment.

The same paragon of honesty who was forced to resign due to a scam involving bulk purchases of his book and whose wife was handed a job to avoid limits on gifts to a Member of Congress? The same guy who took massive contributions from the savings & load fraudster Charles Keating? Yeah, a real, honest, stand-up guy.

20 years later, do you think he wanted his legacy to be the guy who enabled AA to fleece DFW travelers for over two decades? I doubt it.

Quoting cjpark (Reply 138):
They agreed to the terms of the compromise.

If I must fly to L.A. today and the ticket costs $2000, I have no choice but to pay for it. Does that mean I'm happy with that "compromise?" No, but I accept it if I don't have a better alternative. Compromises typically mean that not all parties get everything they want.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 14182
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Wed May 20, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting cjpark (Reply 144):
They got what the wanted or they would not have agreed to the compromise

How do you define compromise?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
alfa164
Posts: 3132
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting cjpark (Reply 132):
Does Southwest own Dallas Love Field?

No... but they think they do...

Quoting Dallas (Reply 142):
WN had the same opportunity as DL to get the two gates from UA, and WN made the better offer.

How do you know that? How do you know DL was even made aware of the possibility of leasing UA's gates?

The last we heard from UA, they were planning a mass expansion at DAL, and claiming to put their gates to full use, hour after hour, day after day. The UA/WN deal came out of the blue, an apparently secretive agreement that no one predicted or expected.

It appears that UA and WN were formulating their plans in secret, and UA slinked out of Luv under cover of darkness...
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
GLG20
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 3:05 pm

RE: Any Update On DL Gates @ DAL?

Thu May 21, 2015 4:34 am

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 148):
How do you know that? How do you know DL was even made aware of the possibility of leasing UA's gates?

They were made aware that there was no room for them when AA's gates were given to VX. If they didn't go through the due diligence to see if UA was willing to sublease, that's DL's fault.

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