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Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 6 (by American 767 Jan 9 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Ben Soriano

Quoting Airnerd (Thread starter): Of course, that can work if the fares are high enough. :

Very true. From personal experience, the fares on this route aren't high enough to subsidize a mostly empty CRJ for about 4-5 months out of the year long term without there being more of a justification than seasonal tourists and a moderate government presence in the area. But this is all subjective and just my opinion.

Thanks Ben.

Links 1-6:

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 1 (by AS737MAX Nov 24 2013 in Civil Aviation)

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 2 (by SA7700 Mar 9 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 3 (by RWA380 Mar 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Oregon Aviation Thread-Part 4 (by AS737MAX May 19 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 5 (by American 767 Sep 11 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Oregon Aviation Thread - Part 6 (by American 767 Jan 9 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 1): Very true. From personal experience, the fares on this route aren't high enough to subsidize a mostly empty CRJ for about 4-5 months out of the year long term without there being more of a justification than seasonal tourists and a moderate government presence in the area. But this is all subjective and just my opinion.

I don't want to seem like an OTH basher at all, but I am kinda surprised that OO stays with this if the loads are that light. It's only 1 flight 4 days a week? If LF is %50, that's only around 100 passengers going out of OTH each week...

Are there many other places out there that receive such limited service from OO? Maybe there are, I just don' t know.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 3): Are there many other places out there that receive such limited service from OO? Maybe there are, I just don' t know.

Very good question, any less service would be 3 or less times a week, unless OO runs some seasonal route for DL or UA that operates weekly or even 2 x weekly to a resort destination, summer or winter?

From Tom in the past thread: Ouch. To be clear, I still think SFO-OTH service on a CRJ year-round is doomed, and that's what I've always thought. For the last two years, I've been flying into OTH once a month for a few days for a side job I have. It's a great area and a beautiful airport. With that being said, even during the EMB-120 days, the planes were half full at best. Since switching to the CRJ, this past winter the flights I've been on have also had consistently low load factors (50%)

Not trying to make it personal Tom, I wasn't really calling you out, because I'd forgotten who said it to begin with, I just remembered it was said. Really I'm laughing out loud.

I know you have a personal perspective few, if any of us have, it's hard for me to understand (based upon what you've indicated about the LF's) how OO/UA is still operating this flight, with that said, the fact that they are operating it, says to me that the financial or obligatory ties that keep them there have proven to be of enough success to open this new connection to DEN

But much like the plight of other smaller Northwestern communities, when the small planes leave an airlines fleet, the small stations often go along with them, so since the CR2 is now the only thing in the OO fleet that can make OTH viable, It'll need to become (if not already) profitable, or the route will go, so I do agree with you in that way. maybe KS would step in there then, who knows for sure.

This new DEN-OTH route is amazing, totally out of left field, IMO. It may be an indicator that that UA/OO has a fair amount of traffic that originates or terminates east of the Rockies going to or from OTH.

I had an encounter with an OO F/A when I lived out in Redmond Oregon, she lived in Sisters & I was looking at a car she was selling, the car was crap, but the stories were interesting, one of the routes she would cover is the SFO-OTH route & it is very seasonal.

That's it from the OAG thread for us up here in Oregon. Just a traditional seasonal adjustment from UA/OO.

UA SFO-RDM SEP 4>3

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4): This new DEN-OTH route is amazing, totally out of left field, IMO. It may be an indicator that that UA/OO has a fair amount of traffic that originates or terminates east of the Rockies going to or from OTH.

Agreed. I definitely was not expecting it and it is surprising for a number of reasons, one of which is that it implies the demand is so strong that two daily CRJ's in the summer from two different UA hubs is now justified despite the fact that just last summer it was an EMB-120 from just SFO. The amount of UA seats that will be serving OTH this summer is significantly higher than last summer or in recent years. Very interesting. I've already ruled out that this is UA/OO's attempt to keep KS away from it's turf now that KS is positioning itself as the new regional in the PNW. This would be overkill if that was the case, and besides that, KS isn't the type of carrier to go and compete with a major commuter/mainline presence in a smaller city.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 4): I had an encounter with an OO F/A when I lived out in Redmond Oregon, she lived in Sisters & I was looking at a car she was selling, the car was crap, but the stories were interesting, one of the routes she would cover is the SFO-OTH route & it is very seasonal.

I bet she did. And I've definitely pointed out on here that it is a seasonal route, too, and summer in North Bend/Coos Bay and the south central coast is a lot different than winter. Believe me, I've noticed this the last two years when prices for hotels and availability were drastically different in July vs January. But for these reasons and my own observations on LF's the last two winters, I still think OO is throwing away money operating a CRJ during the winter months into OTH. If this market is important enough in the summer, perhaps OO will continue to operate with very low loads in the winter just to keep the base open, or perhaps they'll switch to a seasonal base if they can find employees who will reliably work only part of the year. It'll be interesting to watch over the next few years.

Not that it's any new information, but PenAir now has a bit on their website about the new CEC-PDX service: http://www.penair.com/West-Coast-Destinations

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): I definitely was not expecting it and it is surprising for a number of reasons, one of which is that it implies the demand is so strong that two daily CRJ's in the summer from two different UA hubs is now justified despite the fact that just last summer it was an EMB-120 from just SFO.

Yes this was my astonishment as well, given your recant of your personal experiences in & out of OTH. Like I said, there is something keeping UA / OO there. If that is some contractual obligation to North Bend or the US Government, then they very well be getting some level of revenue guarantees or other aid to remain at OTH.

I guess time will tell if the CR2 is too much A/C for OO into OTH, especially during the winter months.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): The amount of UA seats that will be serving OTH this summer is significantly higher than last summer or in recent years

Maybe they know something that we do not, it's not golfers going to Bandon, because they would just fly their private jets to the Gold Beach Airport, a nice field, there can be several pretty expensive jets come through there.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): I've already ruled out that this is UA/OO's attempt to keep KS away from it's turf now that KS is positioning itself as the new regional in the PNW.

Since UA / OO left the Northwest with the EMB-120 flying, I can not see any concern on UA's part with KS coming to OTH as well. KS will head North to PDX allowing connections to AS out of PDX. UA tales OTH passengers to SFO where they can head South or connect Internationally to every continent except Africa. Connections East can be done via DEN on UA or AS via PDX.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): I bet she did. And I've definitely pointed out on here that it is a seasonal route, too, and summer in North Bend/Coos Bay and the south central coast is a lot different than winter. Believe me,

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): I've noticed this the last two years when prices for hotels and availability were drastically different in July vs January.

That is the Oregon coast, all 300 & some odd miles of it. The coast is our vacation spot for half the year, because it can be 100 degrees in Portland & 65-70 at the beach, just 90-120 minutes away, There are so many real deep discounts on hotels along the coast as they all sit vacant in the winter.

I have a friend whose family has a Motel in Charelston Oregon, The Capt Johns IIRC & they shut down half the palce in the winter, a fun filled Polish family, running a motel on a harbor in the Central Oregon Coast.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 6): It'll be interesting to watch over the next few years.

I have to agree, as I am an Oregon Aviation enthusiast, I am always excited about new routes to any of our states airports & also researching & discovering routes from the past, back to Varney airlines times.

I have compiled a list of every Oregon City that has had commercial air service & have done a lot of research into listing each city that has ever been served non-stop from those points within Oregon, as a courtesy I included CEC as they are so close to Oregon & a large percentage of passengers from Oregon depart from CEC.

I need fresh eyes & minds., who are familiar with historical routes to or from Oregon in the last 100 years. If anyone wants to see what I have so far, let me know I'll post it. I included each carrier that does or has flown each route as well.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 7): Not that it's any new information, but PenAir now has a bit on their website about the new CEC-PDX service: http://www.penair.com/West-Coast-Destinations

I was just poking around their website for the first time the other day, I didn't see this page, I was wondering why they didn't have any info at all on the route yet. I hope we see at least one more city added from PDX by years end. I think the choices are ACV, RDD or LMT, my money is on LMT, since I know KS was down there recently. Thanks for the 411 AirNerd.

For all of our PDX spotters, get your cameras out & your spot picked out on the rooftop garage, because on Thursday May 7th at about 3-4 pm AF1 will be landing in the Rose City for Obama to attend a 10k a plate fund raiser for the white house fund. If you have to skip work or school, it may be worth it, this may be the last time Obama comes to town, hopefully Hillary will visit once she is President bringing AF1 classic back to the rose city, before the 748i's take over.

I do not know if the President will remain overnight in Portland as the fundraiser is a dinner, but I can assure you just like everywhere else the President goes the traffic will be a nightmare.

Given the time of day especially, they will need to close off Airport Way, I-205 southbound from Airport Way to I-84, then I-84 all the way into Portland, after that connect with I-5 I'd expect they'll head south on I-5, cross the Marquam bridge & come into the city center off the 6th avenue exit.

The last time Obama came here they shut down all the freeways, all of the overpasses that cross the freeways, the entrances & exits to the freeways & all the bigger buildings along the route have secured rooftops by the Secret Service.

I've seen Clinton take off on AF1 when he came to Portland years ago, it was cool, a very clear day, so we could watch it until it just got so small it diappeared.

Thanks for including CEC in the honorary category. It's not just proximity to the Cal/Ore border, but there is actually some Oregonian participation in the Border Coast Regional Airport Authority.

"The airport is operated by the Border Coast Regional Airport Authority, a Joint Powers Authority (JPA) with a Board of Commissioners comprised of representatives from Del Norte County, the City of Crescent City, the Elk Valley Rancheria, Smith River Rancheria, City of Brookings, Oregon and Curry County, Oregon."

No cars in the parking lot these days (no flights until September), but as has been in the past, lots of Oregon plates in the lot. Meanwhile, I'm headed over to MFR again in a couple of weeks to fly out to Europe. California plates in the MFR lot!

On PenAir's Facebook page they have a picture of their new Saab 2000! Would be awesome to see that flying into PDX! They say the aircraft is "in our future", but the picture shows it painted in their colors with an interior shot too. Nice!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8): I think the choices are ACV, RDD or LMT, my money is on LMT, since I know KS was down there recently.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8): Maybe they know something that we do not, it's not golfers going to Bandon, because they would just fly their private jets to the Gold Beach Airport, a nice field, there can be several pretty expensive jets come through there.

Yeah I agree - I know the economic significance of the golf tourist industry for the Oregon coast what with Bandon and Salishan but I don't think it's enough to sustain CRJ's from DEN and SFO all summer long so there really must be more to this story. It baffles me as someone who is in OTH every month but until I actually find out UA's logic/reasoning behind this I guess I'll continue to just be confused.

Quoting pdx (Reply 11): On PenAir's Facebook page they have a picture of their new Saab 2000! Would be awesome to see that flying into PDX!

   I love the Saab 2000 and I was broken hearted when it was never truly introduced for pax service here in North America; though it's only going (for now) to Alaska, who knows what could happen in the future. I already like KS because they're operating one of my favourite aircraft (Saab 340) and moving in to PDX as an AS codeshare, but if they ever brought the Saab 2000 down to the lower 48 I'd be a huge fan. And what would make all of this even better? If KS starts operating branded AS flights like QX and OO. Can you imagine a Saab 340/2000 in Alaska colours? Be still my beating heart  

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8): Maybe they know something that we do not, it's not golfers going to Bandon, because they would just fly their private jets to the Gold Beach Airport, a nice field, there can be several pretty expensive jets come through there.

You think that the only people who travel to play at Bandon are travelling there in private jets? The majority of people making the trip are regular joes who want to experience golf at a bucket list resort.

Quoting marktci (Reply 13): Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8): Maybe they know something that we do not, it's not golfers going to Bandon, because they would just fly their private jets to the Gold Beach Airport, a nice field, there can be several pretty expensive jets come through there. You think that the only people who travel to play at Bandon are travelling there in private jets? The majority of people making the trip are regular joes who want to experience golf at a bucket list resort.

I think there are two types of people who would spend the amount of money to travel from beyond Denver to Bandon, Oregon to golf, particularly if you understand what the local area is like and the pros/cons in such a rural place. Those are:

1.) The ultra rich, who do own their own aircraft and would rather fly their G5 than suck it up and make a connection in either fog prone (during the summer) SFO or DEN to get there on a CR2.

2.) The people who, as you mentioned, are going there as part of either a tour of OR golf resorts (who would more than likely fly into EUG or PDX instead because it's cheaper, there are more rental car opportunities, it would cover a greater span of golf resorts in Oregon than just those in the southwest corner, and there are more flight options) or the extremely rare golfer who is only planning on flying through DEN/SFO to get to Bandon specifically and is willing to pay that much money for just that specific trip.

Then there's everyone else, who understand that the cost/time savings and opportunities to go to more than just Bandon are significantly superior by flying into EUG or PDX. And I think that's why RWA and I both agree that there's a lot more to this expanded OTH service than just the seasonal golf traffic.

I don't disagree that there is more to the flight than golf. But I also think you are underestimating the draw of Bandon Dunes to avid golfers. My view is that Bandon is a destination on its own and that plenty would come from all over North America to play it and the convenience of location offered by OTH is a significant factor for choosing it over Portland and Eugene. And my view is shared by the Golf Channel's Travel Correspondent, Matt Gianella:

Quote: There are three options of getting to Bandon Dunes: by way of Portland, Eugene or Coos Bay/North Bend. From Portland, it's a four to five-hour drive. From Eugene, it's two-to-three hours. From Southwest Oregon Regional Airport in Coos Bay, it's 30 to 40 minutes. I've only made the drive from Portland once, which is enough. The drive from Eugene isn't bad. You make your way west and then south on the scenic Highway 101. Almost 90 percent of my trips to Bandon, I've flown into Coos Bay/North Bend airport (OTH). From the Coos Bay/North Bend airport, I use Aviation Transportation (aviationtransportation.com) as my shuttle service to and from the resort ($60 per person, round trip. Rates drop for groups of more than eight). They offer spacious shuttles, friendly drivers, and they have complimentary drinks on board. The problem with driving from Portland and Eugene, in addition to the time it takes, is that you use a rental car that you won't need again until you leave.

http://www.golfadvisor.com/articles/...s-golf-10-things-to-know-14632.htm

[Edited 2015-04-29 13:10:31]

Quoting marktci (Reply 15): I don't disagree that there is more to the flight than golf. But I also think you are underestimating the draw of Bandon Dunes to avid golfers. My view is that Bandon is a destination on its own and that plenty would come from all over North America to play it and the convenience of location offered by OTH is a significant factor for choosing it over Portland and Eugene. And my view is shared by the Golf Channel's Travel Correspondent, Matt Gianella:

And I don't disagree that Bandon is a beautiful place with a great golf course, but there's a difference between subjective opinion and objective reality, and as someone who has been flying OO in/out of OTH for two years this summer, I can tell you that even in the summer time the flights aren't full, and that was during the last two summers when it was a much smaller EMB-120 with a lower break even point, not a larger, more expensive CRJ. My observations on load factors is not subjective, which is why I strongly believe that UA/OO is doing this primarily for reasons other than golf tourism, though I'm sure that did play a factor in the decisions they've made at OTH.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 16): And I don't disagree that Bandon is a beautiful place with a great golf course

It actually has four of the top 100 public golf courses in the US (all in the top 14). I'm not disagreeing with your general premise. My original point was that travellers to Bandon are, by and large, not flying in on private jets and that it stands alone as a golf destination (and is not an add-on as part of a tour of Oregon golf courses). Anyway, I've dragged this far enough off topic.

Quoting marktci (Reply 17): My original point was that travellers to Bandon are, by and large, not flying in on private jets and that it stands alone as a golf destination (and is not an add-on as part of a tour of Oregon golf courses).

I get it, and no one is disagreeing with your point. My point was that its relative value as a stand alone golf destination, based on my observations during monthly flights for 2 years, doesn't appear to justify what will be daily CRJ service from two different hubs. I base my point on the aforementioned observations that even in the summer, I never once saw a full flight on an EMB-120, and for about half of the year flights were a third full or less (again, on an EMB-120, not a CRJ). Golf destination it might be, but lucrative enough on the primary basis of golf tourism to sustain twice daily CRJ service even at peak season, I think it is not.

I've searched this thread, the OAG posts, and the GDS, but I have not seen where the DEN-OTH-DEN United Express was announced. Is this a wish or was it announced.

Bandon Dunes is amazing, I never miss an opportunity to go through there when I'm driving down to Brookings. I have seen some nice jets there, but based upon the cars in the lot, I'd say most people drive.

But I know of celebrity types that fly out of the LA area direct to Bandon & get chauffeured in for a round or two of golf before having cocktails & flying home.

The draw of the course is not substantial & I'm 100% sure UA doesn't fly there because of that fact, it's just a bit of extra revenue for them with seats & golf clubs on the flight.

Hey Tom, next time you fly to OTH, check out how many people have their clubs with them at baggage claim. Anyone who would spend the money to fly to Oregon to play golf, will bring their own set of clubs with them, guaranteed.

My Dad is a golfer, I grew up with it & my Dad & his buddies all took their clubs whenever they went on a gold vacation to Hawaii, Arizona or anywhere in the Northwest (even if they flew).

Quoting HNL (Reply 19):

It shows up in reply 202 on part 6 of this thread.

Quoting HNL (Reply 19): I've searched this thread, the OAG posts, and the GDS, but I have not seen where the DEN-OTH-DEN United Express was announced. Is this a wish or was it announced.

I actually haven't seen anything on aviation sites. The only places I've seen it are on golf sites and Twitter. Here is a link to it being announced on Bandon Dunes' site.

http://bandondunesgolf.com/blog/unit...nes-eases-travel-time-bandon-dunes

[Edited 2015-04-30 08:09:46]

And it is bookable on United's site. Wednesdays and Sundays only from July 1.

[Edited 2015-04-30 08:11:29]

Quoting marktci (Reply 22): And it is bookable on United's site. Wednesdays and Sundays only from July 1.

Ahh. I had not realized it was not daily which is why I missed in in the GDS.

Quoting marktci (Reply 22): I actually haven't seen anything on aviation sites. The only places I've seen it are on golf sites and Twitter. Here is a link to it being announced on Bandon Dunes' site. http://bandondunesgolf.com/blog/unit...dunes

I have a feeling that at least once this summer I'll be on the Sunday flight OTH-DEN-YVR due to timing given that SFO and DEN are both completely out of the way for someone traveling to OTH from YVR. I was really hoping (and still do hope) UA/OO does eventually leave OTH and KS moves in. Then I'll be able to connect from PDX and won't actually be back tracking. Well, one can dream  

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 24): I was really hoping (and still do hope) UA/OO does eventually leave OTH and KS moves in. Then I'll be able to connect from PDX and won't actually be back tracking. Well, one can dream

If KS wins the PDT contract when it's time to re-new, then I'm going to say your chances will be good that you will have your wish granted, you'll have to let us know how the DEN-OTH is. I'm very interested to see how many people use it.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 25): If KS wins the PDT contract when it's time to re-new, then I'm going to say your chances will be good that you will have your wish granted

I expect they will win most of the routes they bid on. They offer a superior product/service to SeaPort and have lower costs than OO (S34 vs CR2 is a no brainer); it might take years but I have a good feeling about this and I sincerely hope KS becomes a dominant regional in the PNW. Who knows, maybe they'll even start flying dash trash and replace QX's former Q200 routes with their own. Either way, we (PNW residents) win because KS offers something far superior to the current options (and lack thereof in some areas).

With all of the Alaska recent development going on in SEA and LAX, what does this mean for PDX and SAN?

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 27): With all of the Alaska recent development going on in SEA and LAX, what does this mean for PDX and SAN

PDX will be fine altho I expect little growth there while the SEA saturation continues; I think that LA is the new "other" target city for AAG. The addition of LA-BWI seems an indication of that to me.

Unfortunately, IMHO, I fear that things are over in SAN. Perhaps not a quick and radical pull-down of everything the Company has so carefully built up over the last 4 years at Lindbergh, but I expect few (or no) additions in the foreseeable future. Again, it looks to me like AS has moved their So Cal emphasis 100 miles up I-5.

I'd love to be proved wrong but I have a real bad feeling that I'm right about this...

bb

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28): PDX will be fine altho I expect little growth there while the SEA saturation continues; I think that LA is the new "other" target city for AAG. The addition of LA-BWI seems an indication of that to me.

I agree to a certain extent; as far as route structure and daily departures go, PDX is still significantly larger than LAX for Alaska at present time and it'd take a lot of catching up if they plan on having the same number of daily departures at both airports. The type of monopoly that AS currently has on PDX is only comparable to what it has in SEA, and even then, it's not quite comparable since DL moved (back) into SEA recently. PDX is an AS stronghold at present.

With that being said, AS takes PDX for granted IMO. There is very little competition there at the moment, moreso recently since UA has decided to all but lie in the fetal position and die there (compared to its former presence, including its commuter/regional ops). I expect AS will continue to add services in California when/where possible, likely at a greater pace than at PDX. I sincerely doubt LAX will rival PDX in terms of AS departures (at least, not in the near future), but I do expect its growth relative to the next year or two will out pace PDX. Who knows what will happen long term.

[Edited 2015-05-01 10:39:47]

I'm late to the Oregon threads, forgive me if this has been discussed but I have heard UA is moving from the E gates to C at PDX in June.

Anyone know what gates and/or why?

I believe UA will be using C1,3,5, and 7 fall of 2017...............

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 29): With that being said, AS takes PDX for granted IMO

I've always believe this and it appears Southwest is finally taking notice with the recent add of SAN,LAX, and SNA.......

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 32): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 29): With that being said, AS takes PDX for granted IMO I've always believe this and it appears Southwest is finally taking notice with the recent add of SAN,LAX, and SNA.......

Yes, WN is the main competitor for AS at PDX. Together (including QX) they carry over 60% of all PDX passengers. And they've been adding more non-stops to southern California as noted above and Texas (DAL, HOU, AUS).

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 31): I believe UA will be using C1,3,5, and 7 fall of 2017...............

Thanks. Although I have heard it will be in June of this year.

Anyone know what gates icelandair and condor will be using? Only reason I ask is because according to flypdx.com DE will be using C gates. Customs are in D concourse though?

Where will the check in counters be located? Flew into PDX last night and noticed condor and icelandair signage on the arrivals level around bag carousel 10.

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 33): Quoting lhpdx (Reply 32): Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 29): With that being said, AS takes PDX for granted IMO I've always believe this and it appears Southwest is finally taking notice with the recent add of SAN,LAX, and SNA....... Yes, WN is the main competitor for AS at PDX. Together (including QX) they carry over 60% of all PDX passengers. And they've been adding more non-stops to southern California as noted above and Texas (DAL, HOU, AUS).

Yes I agree with both of you and I apologize for not including WN. I didn't for two reasons, but it was my mistake. First, I'm apparently still living in the past; the last few times I flew WN into PDX it was about a decade ago and their presence was still smaller than UA's. Second, I was thinking in the mindset of AS versus legacy carriers, which is my bad.

AS decisively won in the last "Battle for Seattle" it had with WN prior to the current turf war with DL. I still miss UA though. Nothing against WN but it saddens me to see how far UA has fallen at PDX since I started flying them there in the 80's. And it's still a shock now to pull up to the terminal and not see UAX turboprops parked on the tarmac on the right hand side. The only thing there now even resembling this are the occasional AC Express DH8's.

[Edited 2015-05-01 14:11:30]

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 27): With all of the Alaska recent development going on in SEA and LAX, what does this mean for PDX

Further regarding your question, for my own interest I compared this summer with last summer's skeds at PDX and found the following facts:
>AS this Summer (2015) will see ~129 daily departures to 38 destinations with ~40 daily 737 departures and ~66% of the daily departures will be by QX a/c.
>Last summer (2014) saw ~121 daily departures to 40 destinations, ~36 daily mainline flts, and ~66% of the departures were non-mainline.
>New destinations for Summer 2015: PSP (a Sat only), STL (starts in July.)
>Lost destinations from 2014 not back this summer: ATL, FAI, LGB, TUS.
>Increased frequencies this summer (over last year) to: DFW (+1), LAX (+2), RDM (+1), SEA (+4), GEG (+1).
>Decreased frequencies this year over last: SJC (-1 but all mainline this summer.)

Overall, this summer's sked at PDX will have 3 fewer destinations than last but ~8 more departures every day..

Not bad. It should be interesting to see what this comparison will look like next summer!

Note: these are my calculations based on applicable flight schedules and may not be totally accurate!

bb

How many daily flights will Southwest have at PDX in August 2015 when all flights will be operating this summer?

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 35):

I assume the D gates since they have to arrive there. Ticket counters (according to signage last Saturday when I was there) will be where US and CO used to be...north end of ticket lobby. US has now moved in with AA. A worker was there Saturday painting over the walls of the former US counter. At least they gave AA's counter a remodel and expanded it a bit.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 26): I expect they will win most of the routes they bid on. They offer a superior product/service to SeaPort and have lower costs than OO (S34 vs CR2 is a no brainer); it might take years but I have a good feeling about this and I sincerely hope KS becomes a dominant regional in the PNW. Who knows, maybe they'll even start flying dash trash and replace QX's former Q200 routes with their own. Either way, we (PNW residents) win because KS offers something far superior to the current options (and lack thereof in some areas).

There is not one thing I would think about changing what you said here. I feel when QX dropped the 200's & the cities that could not support 400 flying, there was a certain gap that was left & then there was UA left at LMT & OTH & K5 started to pick up some cities that had lost service, although there big problem is the lack of promotion for the routes they fly, Why?

Well when there is a captive community that has a need for an air link & no one else cares to bid, then the only guy, usually gets what they want for operation. Well K5 will losePDT for all the reasons you gave, better everything & I like flying in Caravans, I loved Mokulele OGG-MKK-OGG for a day trip.

I fully agree that PenAir will become a wonderful compliment to the AS offerings from PDX, I love the fact this smart operation is based at PDX meaning even SEA passengers will need to connect here, for God's sake we've been connecting or stopping in Seattle since I started flying out of PDX in 1979 & the flight was a NW DC-10 to SEA then a 747 to HNL.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28): PDX will be fine altho I expect little growth there while the SEA saturation continues; I think that LA is the new "other" target city for AAG. The addition of LA-BWI seems an indication of that to me.

Plus the LAX-SJO flight as well. I think what PDX will see is a few more dots connected that are already on the AS route map.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28): Again, it looks to me like AS has moved their So Cal emphasis 100 miles up I-5.

I think I pointed this out to you once before B, it's pretty tough to be a big airport with a much larger airport 180 miles to the North on I-5 as well. Nothing has changed for us, I'm still connecting in SEA 35 years later.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 28): Unfortunately, IMHO, I fear that things are over in SAN. Perhaps not a quick and radical pull-down of everything the Company has so carefully built up over the last 4 years at Lindbergh, but I expect few (or no) additions in the foreseeable future.

I do not share your pessimistic view of SAN's role on the AS route map, you've got non-stops to 4 Hawaiian Islands, Orlando & Boston, LAX hasn't any of that on AS. I suspect AS is trying to solidify it's place on the West Coast with adds up & down the coast.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 29): I agree to a certain extent; as far as route structure and daily departures go, PDX is still significantly larger than LAX for Alaska at present time and it'd take a lot of catching up if they plan on having the same number of daily departures at both airports.

They don't need to have the same number of flights out of LAX as PDX, AA has them from LAX & AS code shares a fair amount of those departures, which is why they were more than happy to give up their LAX-MEX authority, because AA can carry the traffic & AS can use the plane to start flights to, say BWI & SJO.

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 32): I've always believe this and it appears Southwest is finally taking notice with the recent add of SAN,LAX, and SNA.......

I too think WN sees PDX as the only way to gain further traction in the Northwest.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 35): Anyone know what gates icelandair and condor will be using? Only reason I ask is because according to flypdx.com DE will be using C gates. Customs are in D concourse though?

I can't think of too many International flights to / from PDX that didn't arrive & depart from the end of D, even Y4 uses D.

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 35): Where will the check in counters be located? Flew into PDX last night and noticed condor and icelandair signage on the arrivals level around bag carousel 10

It's nice to see new airline signs going up at PDX, just another great day in the Rose City.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 37): Not bad. It should be interesting to see what this comparison will look like next summer!

I am excited to see what the next year brings us, I hope it's as interesting or better, as this past year has been.

I believe when Air Transat flew to Cancun from PDX it used D for arrival and C22 for departure so it's possible that DE might have the same setup at PDX.........

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 35): Anyone know what gates icelandair and condor will be using? Only reason I ask is because according to flypdx.com DE will be using C gates. Customs are in D concourse though?

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 41): I believe when Air Transat flew to Cancun from PDX it used D for arrival and C22 for departure so it's possible that DE might have the same setup at PDX.........

I'm curious as to why a carrier would choose to do this? It seems more expensive to then have your widebody aircraft from one terminal to another? Surely the International gates at the end of D are all common use, there are at least 5 gates at the end cap of D.

*AS SEA-PDX NOV 26>27 DEC 26>27 JAN 26>27
US PHL-PDX SEP 0.3>1.0
DL SLC-PDX JUL 5>6 AUG 5>6 SEP 5>6 OCT 5>6 NOV 5>6 JAN 5>6

Penair flight schedule has been published on their site now for PDX-CEC. Still no official announcement of service or additional destinations from PDX. Still cannot book yet.

Flight Schedule: KS 0156 DEP CEC 7:30am ARR PDX 8:50am
KS 0157 DEP PDX 1:05pm ARR CEC 2:25pm
KS 0158 DEP CEC 2:55pm ARR PDX 4:15pm
KS 0155 DEP PDX 5:00pm ARR CEC 6:20pm

Starts September 15, 2015

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40): Well when there is a captive community that has a need for an air link & no one else cares to bid, then the only guy, usually gets what they want for operation. Well K5 will losePDT for all the reasons you gave, better everything & I like flying in Caravans, I loved Mokulele OGG-MKK-OGG for a day trip.

I like the Caravan but more from a pilot's perspective than as a passenger. As a paying passenger, not a huge fan; I prefer a larger aircraft with in flight service and a bathroom, personally. But if I'm getting paid to do the flying, the Caravan is a lot of fun and very versatile. I like it more for charters and freight and less for scheduled passenger service that exceeds 45 minute flight times. So, I'll be happy to see SeaPort end the rest of its PNW pax routes, which I think is inevitable given how small they are now in the PNW.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40): I do not share your pessimistic view of SAN's role on the AS route map, you've got non-stops to 4 Hawaiian Islands, Orlando & Boston, LAX hasn't any of that on AS. I suspect AS is trying to solidify it's place on the West Coast with adds up & down the coast.

Agree here. The mindset on here seems to be that AS is interested in mega hubs in California when this does not appear to be true at all; they serve SJC, OAK and SFO and they have some very unique routes out of SAN and LAX (SAN-BOS, LAX-DCA).

Digressing for a moment, AS has a long history at SAN and a long history on shorter SoCal commuter routes. I very clearly remember they used to fly scheduled MD-80's a few times a day between LAX-SAN in the early 90's. I have great memories of flying on an old green and blue paint job MD-80 around 1991-1992 from LAX-SAN-LAX and it was as cheap as the turboprop flights. Back then TWA also had regular MD-80's flying the same route, and you could also hop on a connecting/repositioning flight that was sold LAX-SAN on a TWA L1011. I think around 1993 I flew LAX-SAN on an L1011, probably one of the shortest L1011 flight's in TWA's schedule at the time at around half an hour. Delta and United also used to fly mainline LAX-SAN on 727's and 732's, though back then UA also flew 733's and 735's on LAX-SBA which had to have been one of the shortest mainline flights in California.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 40): I do not share your pessimistic view of SAN's role on the AS route map, you've got non-stops to 4 Hawaiian Islands, Orlando & Boston, LAX hasn't any of that on AS.

Quoting tomcbaker (Reply 45): Agree here. The mindset on here seems to be that AS is interested in mega hubs in California when this does not appear to be true at all; they serve SJC, OAK and SFO and they have some very unique routes out of SAN and LAX (SAN-BOS, LAX-DCA).

I just wanted to thank you guys for you thoughts on my comments about SAN. I'd love to continue talking about it but, as this is an Oregon discussion, I don't want to keep talking about a city that's well out of the scope of this thread (even though it does revolve around AS.)

I do hope at some point, in some other thread, this can be talked about some more.

(My original SAN-comments were made in response to a question in Reply 28 so I did not bring up the subject on my own.)

bb

Just noticed that PDX-AMS is now back to utilizing a B767-300 instead of the A330-300....I

Quoting lhpdx (Reply 47):

I was about to post the same thing. I wonder why...

Alaska will fly four mainline amongst the daily commuter mix between PDX-SEA starting Aug 1st!