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JDFLYVC10
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Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Mon May 04, 2015 11:19 pm

Hi World,
EK just issued this wonderful document on Open Skies
Please enjoys the read with a lovely glass of wine!
Keep Flying!
JD... OUT!

Link: http://content.emirates.com/download...ek/pdfs/open_sky/OpenSky_21_v2.pdf
A Day Without Sunshine Is Like....NIGHT!
 
globalcabotage
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:27 am

The US signed an Open Sky agreement with the UAE (as with many, many, other countries). Live up to it! I'm tired of the US3 crying about competition / subsidies, when they cleared debt via Chapter 11. If you can't compete, get out! EK did a nice job on this! Why are the US3 complaining about losing low-yield traffic to India, where only UA has 1 flight a day?
 
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thekorean
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:35 am

How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

How do you compete with government owned carriers that couldn't care less they lose money?

Its never that simple as compete or get out.
 
Cipango
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting JDFLYVC10 (Thread starter):
Hi World,
EK just issued this wonderful document on Open Skies
Please enjoys the read with a lovely glass of wine!
Keep Flying!
JD... OUT!

Link: http://content.emirates.com/download...2.pdf

I thought you had linked their May copy of the inflight magazine!  

This turned out to be a good read, thanks for posting!
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting JDFLYVC10 (Thread starter):

Glad they have put that out there, I enjoyed reading the dictionary entries. It love the underlying humor woven into the document, it is a different approach to the US3.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):

You have use the word slave on many of the EK threads now to try and trigger an emotional response from other members. Workers are attracted to the Middle East as they are paid better and have better working conditions than they would have at home. They are not forced into this, they enter into these agreements, many employ agents to get them work as they can earn a lot more than they can back home.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:22 am

Quoting JDFLYVC10 (Thread starter):
Emirates Airlines

Emirates Airline. Only one "s"....

....it's the new "Qantas/Quantas"  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
rta
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:36 am

Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):
where only UA has 1 flight a day?

minor correction, they have EWR-DEL, EWR-BOM
 
astuteman
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 5:24 am

Quoting JDFLYVC10 (Thread starter):
EK just issued this wonderful document on Open Skies

Thanks for posting the link, JDFLYVC10.

An interesting document.
Although it doesn't hold much of the detail the US3 might be looking for, I suspect.

Rgds
 
bobdino
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 5:34 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

How do you compete with government owned carriers that couldn't care less they lose money?

This thread is not about Qatar. Neither of those statements apply to the UAE and Emirates.

They're so far off that you could argue that they apply more to Thailand than to the UAE.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):

You act as if all agreements are perpetual. If an international treaty or agreement turns out to be far more one sided than anticipated, they are usually renegotiated or if that fails, revoked. Treaties are broken all the time. It sometimes leads to retaliation or a trade war or even a physical conflict.

You act as if the ME3 honor their agreements without pushback. Ask Germany if the ME3 believe that all agreements should be frozen as is and perpetual. Ask Canada if the ME3 plays by the rules set out or if they leverage other assets in an effort to extort more frequencies.

The U.S. might very well end Open Skies with the UAE because it has little benefit. In the future frequencies and city pairs may be negotiated just as they are with Japan, Mexico and many other nations.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:12 am

"US consumers must wonder why they deserve less competition in the marketplace when Delta,
American, and United are amongst the most profitable airlines in the world, but nowhere close to
being ranked amongst the best airlines for service or product."

  
I could not agree more!!!
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
The U.S. might very well end Open Skies with the UAE because it has little benefit. In the future frequencies and city pairs may be negotiated just as they are with Japan, Mexico and many other nations.

I doubt it, open skies is one part of a broad trade arrangement between the UAE and the US, passenger transport is a such a small fraction in the long game.



"In 2012, the UAE was the largest export market in the Middle East for the United States – a distinction held for the Fourth year in a row. From 2011 to 2012, the total trade volume between the UAE and US rose to over $24.5 billion, an increase from $16.8 in 2011. This figure represents the highest ever trade volume between the two countries, and was fueled by a surge in exports from the US to the UAE. Total exports from the US to the UAE reached $22. billion in 2011, a 38 percent increase over 2011. Imports to the US from the UAE remained steady, at over $2 billion."

from http://www.uae-embassy.org/business-trade/trade-export
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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thekorean
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:26 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):

Absolutely not true.

Nepalese are TRICKED by promise of better pay and then suckered in to slavery. And then die off like flies working in brutal condition.

All been well documented

Slavery absolutely applies to Dubai.

[Edited 2015-05-04 23:27:53]
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:26 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
All been well documented

Sure that is why you have provided evidence to back up your claims. Being "TRICKED by promise" is called fraud, not slavery. There are unscrupulous people everywhere, and I freely acknowledge that there are SOME agents involved that prey on these individuals, those people in my view are criminals. The unscrupulous agents however are not state sponsored by the UAE, I put them in the same class as the criminals that organise people smuggling for immigration or sex.These unscrupulous agents from what I understand mainly in their home countries.

What I said is accurate, the workers are earning much more than they would back home, it may not be what you are and I are used to, however that is all relative. By earning this foreign income, it has a very positive effect on their home countries standard of living, health, and education.

I dont see the connection with the thread however.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:28 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
All been well documented

Slavery absolutely applies to Dubai.

Sadly it's possible to cite examples of trafficking, exploitation and suppression in various forms in almost every country in the world. I note for example the following article available at www.humantrafficking.org citing South Korea as "a source, transit, and destination country for human trafficking of men and women subjected to forced prostitution and forced labor."

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/south_korea

So, while your general point may has some validity, unless you have specific, sourced examples that directly implicate Emirates themselves then I think you are sweeping far too broadly with a very large brush.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:34 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
Nepalese are TRICKED by promise of better pay and then suckered in to slavery. And then die off like flies working in brutal condition.

Having read many reports about this, it seems that most of the "trickery" is being perpetrated by agents in Nepal and is nothing to do with the countries that these people are shipped to.

You make these statements in a manner that suggests that such mistreatment of workers by employers is unique to the ME region. It is not. It happens all over the world, despite laws forbidding it.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
All been well documented

True, and exploitation in countries such as our own is also well documented:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30255084
http://www.aclu.org/blog/us-admits-modern-day-slavery-exists-home

Exploitation of desperate people happens all over the world and is carried out by unscrupulous employers, including many businesses contracted to many of the largest corporations based in the USA and the EU, who choose to turn a blind eye to that exploitation.

But please feel free to post any evidence you have that the ME3 airlines are themselves directly exploiting workers in this fashion.
 
sierra3tango
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:04 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
Absolutely not true.

Nepalese are TRICKED by promise of better pay and then suckered in to slavery. And then die off like flies working in brutal condition.

All been well documented

Slavery absolutely applies to Dubai.

Think you mixing up your countries Qatar maybe, UAE not
 
MKIAZ
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting Cipango (Reply 3):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

How do you compete with government owned carriers that couldn't care less they lose money?

Putting aside the issue of slavery, costs for building anything can vary wildly between different locations. Even between states in the US. Look at all the companies building facilities in Nevada instead of California due to the lower costs. This is the same thing, just on a global scale.

And the carriers do care about losing money - they just realize they may need to do it for awhile to build up market share and become profitable. Similar to tons of other companies. It's similar to how Walmart moves into a town and sells everything cheap, then other local business close.

Defending existing companies against competition (even tough competition) is *really* bad for consumers and the industry as a whole.

As a consumer, I absolutely want Open Skies with the ME3. I want them to make lots more flights to the US and give the US3 (which should have been US6) a run for their money. I want them to be able to get 5th freedom rights and fly US-Europe, US-Asia, US-Australia.

This would force the US3 to act and lower prices, improve service, ect. This would be great news for everyone, well except shareholders and employees.
 
ukoverlander
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:08 am

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 18):
I agree. The US is a disgusting country!

Centuries of legalized slavery, and now they let their airlines offload their pension obligations onto taxpayers.

I have to say the irony was not lost in me either!!!   
 
Kashmon
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:18 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):

there is a difference between slavery and employment contracts...

these employees are NOT owned by their employers...

unlike what happened in the states
so at least the UAE is building itself up in a less immoral and demeaning way than the USA did to reach where it is now...

the amount of hyperbole from the pro USA ( incompetence) group makes anything they say basically invalid...
 
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scbriml
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:28 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
The U.S. might very well end Open Skies with the UAE because it has little benefit.

Except, of course, to the consumers of air travel. Which, I'm guessing, is the whole point.   

And, as Zeke pointed out, there's also the matter of a significant US trade surplus with the UAE.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:34 am

The basic difference between the environments that EK operate in and many of the airlines that complain about EK, are simply that EK gets to operate out of a country that is pro-aviation. The government of Dubai realises the benefits of a strong aviation sector and encourages growth, while a lot of western governments merely see aviation as a source of revenue. Add in strong green movements in western countries and the airlines based there become strangled by government red tape, restrictive laws and crippling fees and taxes.
It is hard to begrudge a CEO of competing airlines to have a whinge about the ME3, when they see the freedoms they operate in. These men and women have to complain about the ME3 because if they complain about what is really the root cause of many of their problems, they are complaining about their own governments and some residents of their home countries. No surer way of losing public opinion and political support.

As for the delicate issue of foreign labour in the Middle East, I would think that most people are of the opinion that exploitation of foreign labour does occur. It maybe worse in some countries than others, it maybe partly caused by unscrupulous agents in home countries, however those same agents may rip off the workers at one end, it is still, what are sometimes appalling working conditions, lack of basic rights and extreme restrictions placed on these workers in the countries where they end up, that really are the problems.
 
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enzo011
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

You follow the example set by the shining lights of the world....*cough*....US and EU....slavery ....past ....*cough*....      
 
jupiter2
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:45 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 21):
And, as Zeke pointed out, there's also the matter of a significant US trade surplus with the UAE.

Surely most of that trade surplus come in the form of aircraft, aircraft engines and spare parts, used by who ?
 
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zkojq
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 10:12 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
slavery?

If we are going to talk about slave wages, then lets talk about pilot wages at the US3's regional partners.

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
You have use the word slave on many of the EK threads now to try and trigger an emotional response from other members. Workers are attracted to the Middle East as they are paid better and have better working conditions than they would have at home. They are not forced into this, they enter into these agreements, many employ agents to get them work as they can earn a lot more than they can back home.

  

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
The U.S. might very well end Open Skies with the UAE because it has little benefit.

Little benefit? Like the explosive growth of people from the Indian Subcontinent visiting the US, primarily thanks to connecting on Emirates? Like the 25,000 seats per month on American carriers which Etihad books their interlining passengers on? (American Airlines and JetBlue)

All of this is quite apart from the chart that zeke posted above. Seriously, I'd love to see the US3 try to prove damages.

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 22):
The basic difference between the environments that EK operate in and many of the airlines that complain about EK, are simply that EK gets to operate out of a country that is pro-aviation.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. If the US3 wanted to play this smart, they would use it as an excuse to lobby governments (on both a national, state and local level) to be more airport friendly and to invest more into upgrading these infrastructure assets (cough PANYNJ cough). Long term, making these government institutions support airport expansion, oppose curfews etc would probably benefit the US3 much more than cancelling open skies. The same applies even more to the EU3.
First to fly the 787-9
 
Cipango
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 10:36 am

Quoting MKIAZ (Reply 17):
Quoting Cipango (Reply 3):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

How do you compete with government owned carriers that couldn't care less they lose money?

Putting aside the issue of slavery, costs for building anything can vary wildly between different locations. Even between states in the US. Look at all the companies building facilities in Nevada instead of California due to the lower costs. This is the same thing, just on a global scale.

And the carriers do care about losing money - they just realize they may need to do it for awhile to build up market share and become profitable. Similar to tons of other companies. It's similar to how Walmart moves into a town and sells everything cheap, then other local business close.

Defending existing companies against competition (even tough competition) is *really* bad for consumers and the industry as a whole.

As a consumer, I absolutely want Open Skies with the ME3. I want them to make lots more flights to the US and give the US3 (which should have been US6) a run for their money. I want them to be able to get 5th freedom rights and fly US-Europe, US-Asia, US-Australia.

This would force the US3 to act and lower prices, improve service, ect. This would be great news for everyone, well except shareholders and employees.

I believe thekorean said this, not I.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:23 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 4):
Workers are attracted to the Middle East as they are paid better and have better working conditions than they would have at home.

How many pilots showed up for recent New Zealand roadshow???   
All posts are just opinions.
 
astuteman
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting Cipango (Reply 26):
I believe thekorean said this, not I.

He did. And in the process has managed to derail the thread away from the document itself and into some quite unsafe territory regarding human rights in all parts of the globe.

As it is, the fact that DWC will end up costing $80Bn suggests that

a) there aren't that many slaves involved in the process (or they're the best paid slaves on the planet), and
b) a much more coherent, and objective, aregument is up for grabs around

"How do you compete with a country that's prepared, legitimately, to spend $80Bn building one of the worlds most capacious airports".

There are lots of sub-plots in that question around things like

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 22):
The basic difference between the environments that EK operate in and many of the airlines that complain about EK, are simply that EK gets to operate out of a country that is pro-aviation

for example, and the legitimacy of spending that much given the economic benefits it derives (The UAE are quited as saying that DXB already contribues $26Bn p.a. to the dubai economy, and it increases annually).

For reference, Hong Kong made the same decision when it committed to Chek Lap Kok, which is an engineering exercise of a similar scale to DWC, costing $20Bn some 30 years earlier (1998 completion vs 2027 for DWC), and presumably done for similar reasons

We could also debate (as the Partnership for fair skies" do), the issue of landing fees to pay for this inveastment.

And that might prompt intelligent discussions about "investing to make a long-term return" (DWC might end up growing to 260m pax per year)

It might also prompt intelligent discussions about economies of scale (it may well be approriate that the landing fees for a 77W in DXB are half that of ATL, for example, when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger, whilst ATL will be overrun with RJ's and narrowbodys - I don't know but it might be a usefully enlightening conversation)

It might also prompt discussions about the "fairskies" document only identifying airports whose landing fees are higher, where the EK document is able to point to airports whose landing fees are lower .. In all of that selective data (on both sides) where is the reality.

These are discussions I would be quite interested in, and it would be nice for the linked document to prompt.

Not sure I've seen enough to hold my breath yet  

Rgds
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:42 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 27):
How many pilots showed up for recent New Zealand roadshow???

How many ?

Why were you there ?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
For reference, Hong Kong made the same decision when it committed to Chek Lap Kok, which is an engineering exercise of a similar scale to DWC, costing $20Bn some 30 years earlier (1998 completion vs 2027 for DWC), and presumably done for similar reasons

Many examples of large engineering investments in airports, all the "recent" ones I can think of are in Asia. That is also in line with forecasts where the largest growth in air traffic is expected to occur.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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scbriml
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 24):
Surely most of that trade surplus come in the form of aircraft, aircraft engines and spare parts, used by who ?

Well, EK and EY have bought a lot of 777s and some 787s, but not THAT many.

To add to the data (since Zeke's chart only ran through 2011), in 2012-14 inclusive, the trade surplus for the US was a small matter of $61.78billion.

Source: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5200.html

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
And that might prompt intelligent discussions about "investing to make a long-term return" (DWC might end up growing to 260m pax per year)

It might also prompt intelligent discussions about economies of scale (it may well be approriate that the landing fees for a 77W in DXB are half that of ATL, for example, when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger, whilst ATL will be overrun with RJ's and narrowbodys - I don't know but it might be a usefully enlightening conversation)

It might also prompt discussions about the "fairskies" document only identifying airports whose landing fees are higher, where the EK document is able to point to airports whose landing fees are lower .. In all of that selective data (on both sides) where is the reality.

It might. Then again...   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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airzim
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):

The US signed an Open Sky agreement with the UAE (as with many, many, other countries). Live up to it! I'm tired of the US3 crying about competition / subsidies, when they cleared debt via Chapter 11. If you can't compete, get out! EK did a nice job on this! Why are the US3 complaining about losing low-yield traffic to India, where only UA has 1 flight a day?

You're missing the argument. The US3 are complaining about direct and indirect subsidies by the UAE and Qatari government. The totals are staggering and there is direct evidence of billions in interest free and totally forgiven loans to these carriers.

The common counter argument is Chapter 11 (falsely). US corporations are entitled to file for creditor protection which allows them to reorganize and renegotiate their debt with the PRIVATE markets (banks, shareholders, etc.) They do not erase debt and start with a clean slate (unlike the ME3)

The government plays the role of the facilitator but does not provide loans or subsidies to these carriers (exceptions between post 9/11 as a stop gap to prevent the total collapse of the US aviation business which was effectively shut down for 4 days). In the case of the US automobile and banking industry post 2008 the rebuttal is much stronger, although the loans were not interest free.

Fundamentally, the US carriers cannot compete against a government with a blank check book.

However, it's not about not being able to compete. In fact the US carriers compete quite well against the ME3. It's about fairness which is the issue with Open Skies agreement.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:13 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
The totals are staggering and there is direct evidence of billions in interest free and totally forgiven loans to these carriers.

Then please provide us with that "direct evidence". I have only seen supposition and allegation so far with absolutely no convincing supporting evidence, direct or otherwise.

Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
They do not erase debt

Oh yes they do. Huge amounts of debt gets "erased" during Ch11.

Or do you not count pension obligations as debt? Then there is all the debt that is written off in exchange for equity stakes in the post-recovery business. And the lease obligations that are simply terminated without penalty. And ...

Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
In fact the US carriers compete quite well against the ME3.

Really? Then what exactly are they complaining about?

There are actually not that many routes where the US3 directly compete with the ME3.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

Well, I could tell you, but it would probably get me banned for life...

You build your company by making people want to use your company. US airline service is at best mediocre. Raise the quality of inflight and on the ground service, make your business plan very clear as to where you want to go, and you rebuild. Only a few years ago, Delta was tottering on the brink of liquidation, not merely bankruptcy. They swallowed hard, did what they had to do, and they came back. Today they are making millions (and there in lies another story...). Time for some legitimate competition, and it need not be merely to the Emirate States.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
airbazar
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:28 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 8):

This thread is not about Qatar. Neither of those statements apply to the UAE and Emirates.
Quoting zeke (Reply 13):
Sure that is why you have provided evidence to back up your claims.

These 2 links should pretty much cover it.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/29/uae-repression-all-fronts
http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...n-focus+world/united-arab-emirates
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger

AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies. DXB wouldn't survive on $0 landings.

Quoting georgiaame (Reply 33):
US airline service is at best mediocre.

Is there a QoS clause in Open Skies?


Anyway, with ~266 Congressmen on US3 side, USA-UAE/Qatar Open Skies is on the rocks. No amount of drama is going to save it.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
And that might prompt intelligent discussions about "investing to make a long-term return" (DWC might end up growing to 260m pax per year)

Well I often wish that our government were as enlightened about infrastructure investment as the UAE government. If we had invested more (or allowed more private investment) in Heathrow (or a better sited alternative) over the years, we would now have a far larger, far busier hub providing connectivity to a lot more of the world with the massive economic benefits that go along with that. To expect such a major hub as Heathrow to have to struggle on with only 2 runways is, frankly, laughable.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
It might also prompt intelligent discussions about economies of scale (it may well be approriate that the landing fees for a 77W in DXB are half that of ATL, for example, when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger, whilst ATL will be overrun with RJ's and narrowbodys - I don't know but it might be a usefully enlightening conversation)

Well it is quite simple to see why that would make a difference.

Let's take a hypothetical airport that needs to raise $1M per day from landing fees to cover its operating costs and can only handle 1000 movements per day. And let's assume that we'll just charge two landing fees, one for widebodies and one for narrowbodies, and widebodies pay twice the narrowbody rate

Varying the widebody/narrowbody split would result in these fees:
1000 wides @ $1000 and 0 narrows
800 wides @ $1111 and 200 narrows @ $555
500 wides @ $1333 and 500 narrows @ $666
200 wides @ $1666 and 800 narrows @ $833
0 wides and 1000 narrows @ $1000

Yes, I have massively oversimplified but it demonstrates the point that, all else being equal, aircraft mix could significantly affect landing fees.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
It might also prompt discussions about the "fairskies" document only identifying airports whose landing fees are higher, where the EK document is able to point to airports whose landing fees are lower .. In all of that selective data (on both sides) where is the reality.

Well, of course, both sides are going to cherry pick the data that best suits their argument. But I would ask why does it matter at all? We don't expect supermarkets to all pay the same rent on their premises regardless of their location so why should landing fees be the same everywhere?

As long as the landing fees are being charged on a commercial basis by airport operating companies that are not unfairly subsidised, and are not unfairly biased to particular airlines (excepting, maybe, volume discounts) airports should be able to charge whatever fees they choose.

After all, why would anyone expect that an airport that derives a huge percentage of its revenues from retail sales, to passengers in airport shops, to charge the same fees as an airport with almost no retail sales? Just taking a look at how much the main US hubs make from retail could explain why they have to charge proportionately higher fees.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies. DXB wouldn't survive on $0 landings.

Well if you take a look at the 2014 statistics, the average number of passegers per aircraft movement at DXB was 197. At LHR it was 155, at ATL 110 and at ORD only 79.

So the point stands that the average aircraft size at DXB must be significantly larger that at LHR, ATL or ORD.
 
ukoverlander
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:57 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:04 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Anyway, with ~266 Congressmen on US3 side, USA-UAE/Qatar Open Skies is on the rocks. No amount of drama is going to save it.

Ah, I see! So the Washington politicians will ride to the rescue, saving the US3's 'Right to mediocrity' from the gathering menace and insidious spectre of creeping customer driven incremental improvement.

Somebody really should put a stop to this tyrannical free market competition.....that stuff is simply getting out of hand!!!

[Edited 2015-05-05 06:04:32]
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18972
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies.

The bulk - are you sure? I'd love to see some stats to support that.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 37):
Well if you take a look at the 2014 statistics, the average number of passegers per aircraft movement at DXB was 197. At LHR it was 155, at ATL 110 and at ORD only 79.

So the point stands that the average aircraft size at DXB must be significantly larger that at LHR, ATL or ORD.

Indeed, the figures would seem to refute the claim.

Source: http://www.dubaiairports.ae/corporat.../fact-sheets/detail/dubai-airports
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14913
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies. DXB wouldn't survive on $0 landings.

Absolute hogwash, why do you have such a beef with EK/DXB/UAE, why spread so much misinformation ?

"Dubai has 44% narrow body and 56% wide body aircraft operations.
• 38% of operations are with aircraft over 300 seats."

http://www.acl-uk.org/UserFiles/File/Heathrow%20and%20Dubai.pdf

You did not answer the question why you were at the roadshow in NZ ? or was that another baseless statement ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 18):


I agree. The US is a disgusting country!

Centuries of legalized slavery, and now they let their airlines offload their pension obligations onto taxpayers.

  

The irony is missed by him in each and every thread and on every occasion someone retorts with a similar response.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies. DXB wouldn't survive on $0 landings.

You perpetuate such inaccuracies, I am, frankly, becoming embarrassed for you and threads are increasingly becoming of less interest by your wild posturing and subjectivities.

Rgds
Flying around India
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 39):
The bulk - are you sure? I'd love to see some stats to support that.
Quoting speedbored (Reply 37):
So the point stands that the average aircraft size at DXB must be significantly larger that at LHR, ATL or ORD.
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 41):
You perpetuate such inaccuracies, I am, frankly, becoming embarrassed for you and threads are increasingly becoming of less interest by your wild posturing and subjectivities.

But the statement I was responding to with a qualifier "AFAIK" is a perfectly valid. Get over it.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger
DXB cannot survive on NEAR ZERO airport charges from EK and FZ. It thrives on others.

Quoting zeke (Reply 40):
"Dubai has 44% narrow body and 56% wide body aircraft operations.

Yet again another report from land of paid truth. BTW, how do we know "Other" category is narrow body or wide body.

Quoting zeke (Reply 40):
You did not answer the question why you were at the roadshow in NZ ?

Word travels fast. When QR is preferred employer than yours, you have a problem.

[Edited 2015-05-05 07:29:02]
All posts are just opinions.
 
bobdino
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:55 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 34):
These 2 links should pretty much cover it.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/29/uae-repression-all-fronts
http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...rates

That's good information, thanks. I wasn't aware of the migrant worker abuses in the UAE.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 43):
That's good information, thanks. I wasn't aware of the migrant worker abuses in the UAE.

There was a documentary by Vice

http://www.vice.com/video/the-slaves-of-dubai

The Onion explains it the best it its own satirical way.

http://www.theonion.com/article/duba...r-worlds-largest-human-right-37979

"TheKorean" is the expert on this topic, don't need any help from others to drive this point home.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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zeke
Posts: 14913
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 2:42 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 34):
These 2 links should pretty much cover it.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2015/01/29/uae-repression-all-fronts
http://www.theguardian.com/global-de...n-focus+world/united-arab-emirates

You could say the same about expats working in a lot of countries, you could apply a lot o the same comments to Singapore or mainland China. A lot of countries have preference for locals over expats, at all levels.

Even where I live in HKG, they have resisted giving domestic helpers residency so they do not get access to the medical system and schooling.

Have a look at the treatment of illegal immigrants in North America.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
Yet again another report from land of truth. BTW, how do we know "Other" category is narrow body or wide body.

ACL international is a UK company that handles the slot co-ordination at many of the busiest airports in the world, including LHR, LGW, MAN, STN, LUT, LCY, YYZ, DUB, ORK, SNN, AKL, CHC, WLG, ZQN, POZ, WAW, DXB, DWC.

if you opened the link, the answer to your question would have been revealed, they provided the data, they do the slots at both LHR and DXB.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
Word travels fast. When QR is preferred employer for than yours, you have a problem.

By what benchmark ? have you worked at either EK or QR ?

QR gave their pilots a 20% pay rise last year due to the numbers leaving. As an expat pilot there is not job security, you are an industrial prostitute, look after number one, go where the money is, and then retire.

Still have not answered the question, were you or were you not at the roadshow ?

If you were not at the roadshow, it is again a baseless statement.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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airzim
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 2:43 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 32):

Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
The totals are staggering and there is direct evidence of billions in interest free and totally forgiven loans to these carriers.

Then please provide us with that "direct evidence". I have only seen supposition and allegation so far with absolutely no convincing supporting evidence, direct or otherwise.

The evidence is in the report provide to the US Government. Albeit with caveats about some of the inclusive evidence given the lack of financial transparency required by these airlines in their respective countries. The fact is, the ME3 are hiding behind their opaqueness which makes determining the data with zero doubt very difficult.

Given that, the burden of proof is with the US carriers to convince the US Government to pursue these charges against the Open Skies Agreement with the UAE and Qatar. If the US Government doesn't agree then the matter effectively dies. However based on what I've seen, there is enough convincing evidence to warrant further pursuit of this matter.

If the ME3 are so 'clean,' open the books and let's see.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 32):
Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
They do not erase debt

Oh yes they do. Huge amounts of debt gets "erased" during Ch11.

Only if the creditors agree. Companies don't just get to walk away from debt obligations.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 32):
Or do you not count pension obligations as debt? Then there is all the debt that is written off in exchange for equity stakes in the post-recovery business. And the lease obligations that are simply terminated without penalty. And ...

Pensions are funded by the carriers, and insured by the US Government. Debt for equity swaps are a common approach to reorganization, but only if the parties and the bankruptcy court agree. Can you please show me where lease obligations were terminated without penalty? I'm sure Delta would love to know that given all the money they're paying to CVG for empty gates.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 32):
Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
In fact the US carriers compete quite well against the ME3.

Really? Then what exactly are they complaining about?

They are complaining about unfair trade practices.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 32):
There are actually not that many routes where the US3 directly compete with the ME3.

Sure they do. US to South Asia. US to SE Asia, US to Africa etc, South America to Africa, South America to Asia. I assume that the main concern for the US carrier's is the future, not the present.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14913
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
They are complaining about unfair trade practices.

No, they are complaining that the ME3 have progressive governments that vertically promote and integrate aviation into their national agenda.

Everything the governments in the middle east are doing could be done in the US, if the governments had the will.

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
Sure they do. US to South Asia. US to SE Asia, US to Africa etc, South America to Africa, South America to Asia. I assume that the main concern for the US carrier's is the future, not the present.

They compete with a lot of airlines on those routes, why single out the ME3 ?

Its is extremely hypocritical for the US3 to complain about some of those routes, as all the US3 are doing is hubbing passengers through the US.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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scbriml
Posts: 18972
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
But the statement I was responding to with a qualifier "AFAIK" is a perfectly valid.

Which doesn't excuse a wholly misleading statements like "Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies." when 30 seconds on Google reveals just how inaccurate the statement is.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:04 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
If you were not at the roadshow, it is again a baseless statement.

Irrespective of my presence at the road show, my point disproves your point expats are coming in droves. One can only survive with that kind of workload. Living costs are increasing every day.

"No Taxes, only Fees" model is a good publicity stunt, doesn't help employees net savings.

Even constructions workers are leaving UAE.

http://www.thenational.ae/business/e...osts-soar-and-wages-rise-back-home

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
if you opened the link, the answer to your question would have been revealed, they provided the data, they do the slots at both LHR and DXB.

I did open the link. Carefully crafted master piece doesn't have a number for "Other" category.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:09 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
No, they are complaining that the ME3 have progressive governments that vertically promote and integrate aviation into their national agenda.

Not quite. There's absolutely nothing wrong with governments promoting and integrating aviation into their national agenda. The issue is UAE and Qatari government direct financial support for these initiatives.

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
Everything the governments in the middle east are doing could be done in the US, if the governments had the will.

I will agree that there are airports in the US that subsidize certain flights "for the benefit" of their respective communities. I think the difference being a) the subsidy is not tied directly to a carrier, it's tied to the route and therefore open to any carrier, b) order of magnitude.

But it is without precedent in the US that the federal government is providing direct interest free investment in a US carrier. I'm not sure that's even legal in the US.

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
They compete with a lot of airlines on those routes, why single out the ME3 ?

Because the money tap appears to be virtually endless.

Quoting zeke (Reply 47):
Its is extremely hypocritical for the US3 to complain about some of those routes, as all the US3 are doing is hubbing passengers through the US.

What part is hypocritical?

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