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dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 48):
Which doesn't excuse a wholly misleading statements like "Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies." when 30 seconds on Google reveals just how inaccurate the statement is.   

Care to explain.

This is the false statement

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger

I countered in nicest possible way with a qualifier. Didn't claim it as absolute truth, Didn't call any names or pull truth serum out.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies.

A 30 second on Google reveals how inaccurate when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger
All posts are just opinions.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 38):
Somebody really should put a stop to this tyrannical free market competition.....that stuff is simply getting out of hand!!!

This is hilarious. Today's situation is precisely NOT free market. That's the whole point.
 
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jetjack74
Posts: 6649
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:22 pm

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 18):

I've read about Qatar working people to death, like this article in the Guardian, but haven't heard anything similar about the UAE.
Quoting speedbored (Reply 15):
But please feel free to post any evidence you have that the ME3 airlines are themselves directly exploiting workers in this fashion.
http://youtu.be/ckwFEFRmBR0
While this is only one link, there are many more out there. Face it, all the glitz and glamour has a dirty foundation.
Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 19):


these employees are NOT owned by their employers...

unlike what happened in the states

Well taking passports, immediately upon arrival, paying them of what amounts to meeger wages as close to the term indentured servitude, which is a form of imprisoned slavery
Made from jets!
 
airbusfanyyz
Posts: 1417
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 1:01 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
How do you compete with a country that builds its infrastructure via slavery?

Hmmm sounds just like how the US built its wealth.  
 
ukoverlander
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:57 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:30 pm

Quoting Kashmon (Reply 20):
these employees are NOT owned by their employers...

unlike what happened in the states
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 53):
Well taking passports, immediately upon arrival, paying them of what amounts to meeger wages as close to the term indentured servitude, which is a form of imprisoned slavery

That was Kashmon's Quote (Reply 20 as shown above) not mine - but no worries, not a big deal - just for clarification.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:33 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
The evidence is in the report provide to the US Government.

No it is not. The "dossier" contains almost nothing in the way of evidence. Allegations and evidence are not the same thing.

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
The fact is, the ME3 are hiding behind their opaqueness

Ah I see. So the fact that the ME3 are choosing to keep commercially sensitive information to themselves, and only publicly release the same, similarly audited, financial data that other businesses, like the US3, do, means that they must be hiding something and that something is all of the stuff in the US3 dossier? Interesting logic.

Absence of evidence does not automatically mean that evidence exists and is being hidden - it usually means that there is no evidence.

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
which makes determining the data with zero doubt very difficult.

At least you agree that there is doubt in the US3 dossier then.

Quoting airzim (Reply 46):
Can you please show me where lease obligations were terminated without penalty?

It's in the bankruptcy court documentation, which is freely available to anyone who wants to read it, for a number of the US3 bankruptcies - many aircraft (mostly the older, more expensive to run ones) were simply returned to lessor during bankruptcy and the leases terminated at zero cost.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 48):
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
But the statement I was responding to with a qualifier "AFAIK" is a perfectly valid.

Which doesn't excuse a wholly misleading statements like "Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies." when 30 seconds on Google reveals just how inaccurate the statement is.

AFAIK requires you to at least to have attempted to obtain the information in the first place, not just to make it up. Most sensible people also spend a little bit of time checking what they are going to state, before posting, if they are at all unsure.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
DXB cannot survive on NEAR ZERO airport charges from EK and FZ. It thrives on others.

You need to learn from Ryanair then.    Just kiddin'...

Quoting zeke (Reply 45):
QR gave their pilots a 20% pay rise last year due to the numbers leaving. As an expat pilot there is not job security, you are an industrial prostitute, look after number one, go where the money is, and then retire.

Spot on.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies. DXB wouldn't survive on $0 landings.

Let's see... slots used, more than 50% of the slots used are Emirates and Fly Dubai... above 60%.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 42):
Yet again another report from land of paid truth. BTW, how do we know "Other" category is narrow body or wide body.

The "other" does not matter, as the document stated 44% narrowbody and 56% widebody.
This is consistent with the "Aircraft size distribution" graph as well.
If you want to play with the "Other" category, just assume "other" is all narrowbody, and look at Dubai fleet mix, 737 + A320 + Other, still produces less that 50%.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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zeke
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 49):
Irrespective of my presence at the road show, my point disproves your point expats are coming in droves. One can only survive with that kind of workload. Living costs are increasing every day.

Where you there at the roadshow or not ?

I have been to two EK roadshows, my presence at the roadshow was for to have a look, like many others I saw there. We even had management attend to see the sales pitch and the sort of level of engagement. People who want to go to EK will fill out an application online, you dont need a roadshow to recruit.

I go to the roadshows to send a message to my employer that I have options.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 49):
I did open the link. Carefully crafted master piece doesn't have a number for "Other" category.

Other lumps in most of the aircraft on the cargo apron side not A320/30/40/80, 737,777. That would include biz jets, helicopters, IL76, C130, C17, An24, AN124, A300, A310, MD11, 757, 767, and 747.

Quoting airzim (Reply 50):
Not quite. There's absolutely nothing wrong with governments promoting and integrating aviation into their national agenda. The issue is UAE and Qatari government direct financial support for these initiatives.

I have no problem at all with the tax payer or government paying for public services/infrastructure, be it electricity, water, sewerage, schools, hospitals, rail, ports, busses, or airports. Governments do that all over the world.

It shocks me to think that some people call this a subsidy where there is a clear and direct public benefit. It also shocks me to think people in the US think they have the right to dictate to a another country how another country should spend their own funds, and how they should run their public policy. Fact is the UAE does a lot of things better than the US, and its small size makes it easier to adapt and change.

To me it is nothing more than green envy.

Quoting airzim (Reply 50):
I will agree that there are airports in the US that subsidize certain flights "for the benefit" of their respective communities. I think the difference being a) the subsidy is not tied directly to a carrier, it's tied to the route and therefore open to any carrier, b) order of magnitude.

I dont see how this is relevant, UAE don’t do that at all. This sort of public service is done in many countries for people in remote areas to have access to services. I dont see it as a subsidy, it is a public service. Better examples are found in northern Canada and remote parts of Australia.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 3:57 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 49):
Irrespective of my presence at the road show, my point disproves your point expats are coming in droves. One can only survive with that kind of workload. Living costs are increasing every day.

Your point proved absolutely nothing as it was (a) wrong and (b) backed up with no evidence.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 49):
I did open the link. Carefully crafted master piece doesn't have a number for "Other" category.

How can there be an "other" category? Hot air balloons, perhaps? Look at the percentages - there cannot be any "other" unless you think it is possible to have more than 100%.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 51):
This is the false statement

No, astuteman's statement was true. This is the false one:

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies.
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 53):
While this is only one link, there are many more out there. Face it, all the glitz and glamour has a dirty foundation.

Yet the link you posted contains none of the requested evidence.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1434
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 56):
No it is not. The "dossier" contains almost nothing in the way of evidence. Allegations and evidence are not the same thing.

I disagree. But it only really matters what the US government thinks.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 56):
Ah I see. So the fact that the ME3 are choosing to keep commercially sensitive information to themselves, and only publicly release the same, similarly audited, financial data that other businesses, like the US3, do, means that they must be hiding something and that something is all of the stuff in the US3 dossier? Interesting logic.

Every country had different levels of disclosure, mainly related to determining taxes due and transparency for publicly traded companies. The UAE and Qatari governments do not require the level and details of financial disclosure. Therefore it is opaque to all but those within the HQ.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 56):
At least you agree that there is doubt in the US3 dossier then.

Sure. Nothing in life is always black and white. It's preponderance of evidence. US3 raise an accusation, and the ME3 respond with a logical argument. See which one passes the sniff test.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 56):
It's in the bankruptcy court documentation, which is freely available to anyone who wants to read it, for a number of the US3 bankruptcies - many aircraft (mostly the older, more expensive to run ones) were simply returned to lessor during bankruptcy and the leases terminated at zero cost.

Not arbitrarily.

Quoting zeke (Reply 58):
t shocks me to think that some people call this a subsidy where there is a clear and direct public benefit. It also shocks me to think people in the US think they have the right to dictate to a another country how another country should spend their own funds, and how they should run their public policy. Fact is the UAE does a lot of things better than the US, and its small size makes it easier to adapt and change.

The US is not stipulating how the UAE and Qatar should run their countries or support their local businesses. The issue is the UAE and Qatar signed an agreement with the US government for their indigenous carrier to have Open Skies access to the US market. The agreement has specific prohibitions against direct subsidies from their respective governments. The US3 are arguing that the US government should revoke or curtail the access to the US market given this violation.

Quoting zeke (Reply 58):
I dont see how this is relevant, UAE don’t do that at all. This sort of public service is done in many countries for people in remote areas to have access to services. I dont see it as a subsidy, it is a public service. Better examples are found in northern Canada and remote parts of Australia.

I mentioned this to counter any argument that US carriers are also subsidized. They are, but it's under a different framework than what the ME3 appear to benefit from.

[Edited 2015-05-05 09:16:20]
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 4:32 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 15):
Having read many reports about this, it seems that most of the "trickery" is being perpetrated by agents in Nepal and is nothing to do with the countries that these people are shipped to.

One could say the government of Dubai is absolutely complicit with their rules which prevent workers from leaving at will. Dubai courts and Sharia law grant the traders a golden opportunity to enslave.

It is interesting how vehement our foreign posters are in seeing EK take over the US market. Why is that?
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 59):
No, astuteman's statement was true. This is the false one:

I see. Open the document Zeke provided.

http://www.acl-uk.org/UserFiles/File/Heathrow%20and%20Dubai.pdf

Go to Page 7 Dubai fleet mix.

Add 77W (part of 777) + A380 + B747s percentages.

Is it more than narrow body 44%? No.

My statement is still close to the truth about NBs than the original false statement.

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger

BTW, don't do fuzzy math. It didn't say WBs, it didn't say averages, it said 77W or bigger.
All posts are just opinions.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6593
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 62):
Go to Page 7 Dubai fleet mix.

Add 77W (part of 777) + A380 + B747s percentages.

Is it more than narrow body 44%? No.

My statement is still close to the truth about NBs than the original false statement.

And the A330 doesn't get counted? A340 doesn't get counted? Last time I checked, they had twin aisles...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 63):
And the A330 doesn't get counted? A340 doesn't get counted? Last time I checked, they had twin aisles...

Are they bigger than B77W to prove following statement?

Quoting astuteman (Reply 28):
when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger,
All posts are just opinions.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 60):
The UAE and Qatari governments do not require the level and details of financial disclosure.

I presume that is just your opinion, or do you have a source for that?

Perhaps you could give some examples of exactly what you think the US3 are required to publicly disclose that they ME3 do not disclose, either voluntarily or to meet government requirements. There is nothing as far as I can see that the US3 are required to disclose that EK, for example, does not already disclose in its own public financial statements.

Quoting airzim (Reply 60):
Not arbitrarily.

And that makes a difference how? The debt is still "erased", which is what we were discussing.

Quoting airzim (Reply 60):
The US3 are arguing that the US government should revoke or curtail the access to the US market given this violation.

I presume you meant to write "alleged violation".

Quoting mham001 (Reply 61):
One could say the government of Dubai is absolutely complicit with their rules which prevent workers from leaving at will. Dubai courts and Sharia law grant the traders a golden opportunity to enslave.

Got a source for these supposed Dubai rules that prevent people from leaving should they choose to? I'm not aware of any such law. I am aware of many laws in Dubai that protect workers, however.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 62):
Is it more than narrow body 44%? No.

It is if you look at more current numbers - that linked document is a year old. But even using the numbers in that document, astuteman's statement was far more correct that your:

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies.

Which is wrong using the numbers in the document, and is even more wrong now.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 66):
But even using the numbers in that document, astuteman's statement was far more correct that your:

Rather than repeating same statement, you could use numbers to prove it, or accept you are wrong.

Prove that (B77W + B747 + A380) % is more than 44%. Keep in mind even EK has smaller B777s.
All posts are just opinions.
 
peanuts
Posts: 980
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:17 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:17 pm

It's all very ironic to me.
US3 claim the competition has the government in their pocket.
Yet they're lobbying mightily to get/keep their own government in their own pocket.

US3 will get egg on their face. Boeing, supply chain, their unions, consumer discernment will overpower it any day.
 
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Ncfc99
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:26 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 67):
Quoting speedbored (Reply 66):
But even using the numbers in that document, astuteman's statement was far more correct that your:

Rather than repeating same statement, you could use numbers to prove it, or accept you are wrong.

Prove that (B77W + B747 + A380) % is more than 44%. Keep in mind even EK has smaller B777s.

Below is your original statement which is the contentious one.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
AFAIK thats not the case. Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies

Have a look at page 3 of the ACL document. EK & FZ hold over 60% of the slots. so less than 40% are NON UAE flights. The vital word you included was NON. Less than 40% are NON UAE flights, not all of those flights are NB. The document dosen't state how many of the NON UAE flights are on WB or NB's, but looking at the pie chart, 77W & above are 40% at least, so by definition, more 77W & above flights as oposed to NON UAE NB's.

44% is TOTAL narrowbodies which includes Flydubai, not NON UAE narrowbodies.

[Edited 2015-05-05 11:28:15]
 
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Ncfc99
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:29 pm

I am happy to be corrected if I have read the document incorrectly.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 69):
44% is TOTAL narrowbodies which includes Flydubai, not NON UAE narrowbodies.

Even on that technicality my state is invalid. That still doesn't make when in DXB, nearly every plane is 77W sized or bigger a true statement.

BTW, I have no issue with astuteman's assertion about everything is big in DXB. I have serious issue truth police nitpicking forum opinions, whether its with slavery, crew issue or anything else against EK.

For the very reason US3 should use every option to fight back.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
Joined: Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:14 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 6:54 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 67):
Prove that (B77W + B747 + A380) % is more than 44%. Keep in mind even EK has smaller B777s.

Fair enough, I will. After you break the habits of a lifetime and prove just one of your statements to be true:

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 35):
Bulk of DXB movements are non-UAE narrow bodies.
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 71):
I have serious issue truth police nitpicking forum opinions, whether its with slavery, crew issue or anything else against EK.

They would not need to if you stopped posting so much erroneous information and biased opinion as "fact".
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:26 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 72):
They would not need to if you stopped posting so much erroneous information and biased opinion as "fact".

My posts don't have "FACT" stamp, unlike documents published by your fav carrier.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 69):
EK & FZ hold over 60% of the slots.

Your assumption is brothers are not holding any slots. Just checking, because you know 2+2 is never 4 with this enterprise.
All posts are just opinions.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5281
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):
Live up to it! I'm tired of the US3 crying about competition / subsidies, when they cleared debt via Chapter 11.

Except Chapter 11 doesn't come from government funds, its all private.
 
goosebayguy
Posts: 705
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:12 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 7:40 pm

I do love this especially looking back over the many years of government handouts American airlines have had. 2001 was a huge one for instance. then add in the number of Chapter 11's which have helpedthem along the way.

The complaint about Dubai building an airport just to support their airline and is therefore a subsidy is ludicrous. LAX recently spent $1bn building terminal. yet this is seen as infrastructure investment not airline support.

Its quite clear that American airlines have never gone further east than Europe or west than Hong Kong yet they have had plenty of oppourtunity. Its because American airlines tend to think America is the market but have overlooked the world as the market unlike EK.
 
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airzim
Posts: 1434
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting speedbored (Reply 66):
Perhaps you could give some examples of exactly what you think the US3 are required to publicly disclose that they ME3 do not disclose, either voluntarily or to meet government requirements.

I should re-phrase since I am not aware of what the UAE government requires of their corporations, only what's publicly disclosed.

Eithad does not provide any discernible information regarding how they achieve their financial statements. Just look at their Annual Report fluff piece.


US3 carriers, as publicly traded entities, are required to provide detailed financial audits to the US government, the SEC, and their shareholders. There are criminal liabilities associated with false statements and misleading and/or erroneous representations.


Granted, private companies are not required to disclose this information into the public domain. However, they still have responsibilities to provide audited financials to the US Government.

The same may be true with the UAE, but it's impossible to tell given the lack of transparency

Quoting speedbored (Reply 66):
And that makes a difference how? The debt is still "erased", which is what we were discussing.

Huge difference. A company cannot just walk into the US Bankruptcy count, declare Chapter 11 and stop paying it's bills and all is forgiven. There are massive economic implications with a Chapter 11 filing. The terms and conditions of reorganizing under Chapter 11 are well documented, and ultimately the creditors and the bankruptcy court determine a course of action.

And it is not true that in every case debt is just 'wiped out.' Sometimes they negotiate a change to the underlying principal, sometimes the swap for an equity stake, sometimes for future earnings, sometimes for preferred stock. It depends on many factors including what type of creditor, etc. It doesn't just go poof in the night.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 66):
I presume you meant to write "alleged violation".

Ironic that you're quivaling on specifics given your broad baseless statements above.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 12):
Nepalese are TRICKED by promise of better pay and then suckered in to slavery. And then die off like flies working in brutal condition.

Most of the times, it is agents who indulge in this, not the direct employer. The big guys gets some vendors to supply them workers, who in turn go to other agencies in different countries like India, Pakistan,Nepal etc, and advertise rosy conditions. Then when they get to ME, the contracting company pays them a smaller salary than what they were promised. Everyone from the vendors down to the agencies take a cut and poor worker suffer.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 49):
Even constructions workers are leaving UAE.

Nature of migrant workforce. It is the same everywhere. Even in India, Biharis used to come to Bangalore and other south Indian states for work when Bihar wasn't doing so good. Once the govt changed and opportunites increased, many went back to their hometowns. I am sure its same everywhere.

Quoting airzim (Reply 60):
. The agreement has specific prohibitions against direct subsidies from their respective governments.

Can you please share this document? US also has open-skies agreement with India, but Air India is owned by Indian government and they get support in Indian budget every year. I am sure its similar story for Thai, Malaysian Airlines etc.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 77):
Can you please share this document?

copy paste the link, for some reason a.net throwing forbidden error today
www state gov/documents/organization/125743.pdf

Quoting blrsea (Reply 77):
US also has open-skies agreement with India, but Air India is owned by Indian government and they get support in Indian budget every year.

"Total" budgetary support till date by India to AI is $1.92 Billion. That is peanuts compared to what ME3 are getting.

Media makes it look like GoI giving $1 Billion a year plus $5 Billion bailouts every few years.

Keep in mind ME3 are throwing hissy fit to open detailed books. AI finances were reviewed by US courts twice on same issue, and both times it was cleared.
All posts are just opinions.
 
COEWR787
Posts: 370
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:35 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):
low-yield traffic to India, where only UA has 1 flight a day?

Two flights a day EWR-BEL and EWR-BOM. Surprisingly they seem to run those flights pretty full and even command quite a premium in terms of fare somehow.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 77):
Can you please share this document? US also has open-skies agreement with India, but Air India is owned by Indian government and they get support in Indian budget every year. I am sure its similar story for Thai, Malaysian Airlines etc.

I suppose since Air India cannot even manage to fly a 777 profitably between India and the US, nobody really worries much about what Air India gets or not from GOI If they managed to become a real threat people will notice and try to clamp down. DL has already been moaning about Air India's Exim bank loans, though one wonders why DL cares since they seem to have abandoned India anyway.
 
tortugamon
Posts: 6795
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:14 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:38 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 68):
US3 will get egg on their face. Boeing, supply chain, their unions, consumer discernment will overpower it any day.

I don't think the supply chain or Boeing cares nearly as much as the airlines themselves and the airlines employ a hundreds of thousands of voting citizens who care very deeply.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 75):
Its because American airlines tend to think America is the market but have overlooked the world as the market unlike EK.

I don't think this is it. I think its largely because the US-based airlines have not had the amount of capital to invest, the right aircraft to utilize, nor the right opportunities; the US remains the largest commercial aviation business in the world and these airlines fly to more destinations with the biggest fleets of any airline while largely ignoring the regions you mention. There was just too much competition and opportunity more close to home. This is why Alliances formed in the first place and I would argue that US-based airlines relied too much on alliances and the ME3 are now upsetting that alliance structure and it is causing the US-based airlines to be hot and bothered.

Quoting HALtheAI (Reply 18):
I agree. The US is a disgusting country!
Quoting ukoverlander (Reply 19):
I have to say the irony was not lost in me either!!!
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 41):
The irony is missed by him

This comment and the consequent notes of approval are a lot more offensive than the original comment that brought these comments in the first place. The US is a very free nation (but certainly has room to approve) and to attempt to negatively compare it to the UAE's record is both ill-informed and misguided. Attacking the attacker is a good strategy but I think you guys are making yourselves even more dirty than the original poster.

tortugamon
 
B777LRF
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:39 pm

It's pretty simple, really, and is basically a long history of legacy US carries having successfully lobbied their government of the time to make arrangements that were favourable for them, at the detriment of the other side of the negotiations.

Having enjoyed these rights for decades, and being a strong initial supporter of 'Open Skies' arrangements with foreign countries, what remains of a once diverse US airline industry has had a bit of a shocker. Namely that 'Open Skies' have opened a lot of direct international routes out of the US, but operated by foreign operators. What's worse, for the US airlines that is, is that those services are of far superior quality. The fact that all of these routes are having a positive impact on the US, that US carriers either don't compete on a large number of the services or offer very few frequencies, and that most of the traffic is 'new' and not 'stolen' from existing US carriers, is blindly ignored.

The claim by US3 is that ME3 is in breach of the treaty. ME3 say they aren't. Well, try to prove it, but do know a couple things: The US enjoys a massive trade surplus with the UAE and Qatar, one that dwarfs airline revenue by several orders of magnitude, and relies heavily on the latter for it's military presence in the region. So if you want my guess on which way this will go, let's just say it's not in the favour of US3.
Signature. You just read one.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:39 pm

Quoting JDFLYVC10 (Reply 65):
Shall we meet at In N Out for Animal Fries and Double Doubles?

Well, since you offered... I always *have* wanted to try the Animal-style fries, but only like single bite, not the whole thing, that's like a heart-attack in the making! So yeah, lemme steal some o' yours.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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airzim
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 75):
I do love this especially looking back over the many years of government handouts American airlines have had. 2001 was a huge one for instance. then add in the number of Chapter 11's which have helpedthem along the way.

Specious argument. The US carriers had ONE bailout. No other country, except Canada, grounded their entire aviation system for multiple days post 9-11. It was $5 billion in grants and $10 billion in loan guarantees given their operations ceased and ticket sales died as a result of extraneous actions not related to running their businesses. No airline got more than $1B (American got $900M) in the bailout. Only a few airlines were granted loans and when the program was suspended after 5 years, the US Treasury earned about $300M in profit from the loans (interest and equity stakes). Not only does it pails in comparison to the money delivered to the ME3 over the last 10+ years, but it's not even remotely related to the conversation at hand.

The US might have Chapter 11, but many other countries have bailed out their carriers in the past and lived to see another day. NZ, AF, BA, LH, AZ, JL, SA, OA, etc. The difference is the US government isn't writing any checks.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 75):
The complaint about Dubai building an airport just to support their airline and is therefore a subsidy is ludicrous. LAX recently spent $1bn building terminal. yet this is seen as infrastructure investment not airline support.

No argument there. The biggest issue is the airport system is controlled and generally funded at the local level. In most cases, cities must fund these massive infrastructure projects through issuing bonds (debt), borrowing (debt), raising taxes, or private funding (airlines). Including all competing infrastructure projects and environmental concerns and nothing really moves forward. Terrible shame and will ultimately hurt the US competitive benefits.

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 75):
Its quite clear that American airlines have never gone further east than Europe or west than Hong Kong yet they have had plenty of oppourtunity. Its because American airlines tend to think America is the market but have overlooked the world as the market unlike EK.

That's ludicrous. Ever heard of Pan American?
 
blrsea
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 78):
copy paste the link, for some reason a.net throwing forbidden error today
www state gov/documents/organization/125743.pdf

No where does it mention that government subsidy is not allowed in that document. And I would be surprised if it did because EK ownership was never in private hands, even at time of agreement. Same as with AI or multiple other countries.

The only section in the treaty that the US3 can fall back on would be the pricing issue. Even there, they have to prove that the ME3 prices are artificially low due to govt subsidy, which they will be hard-pressed to do. ME3 prices are definitely not the cheapest always.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 78):
AI finances were reviewed by US courts twice on same issue, and both times it was cleared.

That doesn't make any sense. AI has always been a government owned company. Why will the US sign open-skies agreement with India if it would exclude govt subsidy? or with any other country. I think you may have got your facts wrong on AI's finances being reviewed by US courts. Even for financing, AI had sovereign guarantee from Indian govt for loans. US government has some pretty good lawyers and I would doubt they will sign open skies with any government when they know that the airlines in that country are totally government owned.
 
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airzim
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 81):
Having enjoyed these rights for decades, and being a strong initial supporter of 'Open Skies' arrangements with foreign countries, what remains of a once diverse US airline industry has had a bit of a shocker. Namely that 'Open Skies' have opened a lot of direct international routes out of the US, but operated by foreign operators. What's worse, for the US airlines that is, is that those services are of far superior quality. The fact that all of these routes are having a positive impact on the US, that US carriers either don't compete on a large number of the services or offer very few frequencies, and that most of the traffic is 'new' and not 'stolen' from existing US carriers, is blindly ignored.

Last time I checked, the US Airlines have been competing with International carriers from a huge variety of nations for a very long time. Some with arguably better on board standards. Yet United still carries more passengers across the Pacific that any carrier, even competing with the likes of CX, SQ, JL, NH, QF etc. And Delta carries more passengers across the Atlantic, even competing with LH, BA, AF, KL, EK, etc. And they are operating more flights, to more destinations, than ever before.

So somebody is flying these rotten, terrible, decrepit, airlines.  

The true story here is subsidies to a business with an insatiable appetite for free capital by their federal governments.

I will not argue that in the short term this is good for consumers; since choice and 'free markets' are generally a good thing. But if the trade off is a US airline industry that is hobbled because of an unfair advantage of foreign carriers, that's ultimately bad for consumers and employees of these companies.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 84):
I think you may have got your facts wrong on AI's finances being reviewed by US courts. Even for financing, AI had sovereign guarantee from Indian govt for loans.

Off topic, but

US courts specifically reviewed for subsidies by government, because it is against EXIM law.

Contrary to popular belief AI didn't get any SCG until last month. Go back and check all RFPs over last several years. Only two latest RFPs for $300 Million working capital loan and $720 Million bridge loan for 6x788 SLB transaction.

We can discuss this further on some other thread.

BTT, even government equity is not an issue. So QR and EY are in less trouble because if they cannot make money they get more equity.
All posts are just opinions.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 86):
US courts specifically reviewed for subsidies by government, because it is against EXIM law.

Once again, that doesn't make sense as even EK uses the US EXIM facility to buy Boeing planes. That was also a complaint by Delta about easy financing by Emirates through Exim as ExIm doesn't finance US companies. If the court had to review AI's books, then Delta or someone else could have asked it to review EK's finances too.

Do you mind posting a link which says that the US court reviewed AI's finances? Will help in understanding issue better.

[Edited 2015-05-05 14:06:49]
 
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Ncfc99
Posts: 778
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 76):
but it's impossible to tell given the lack of transparency

They have accounts audited by PWC which are available on their website. What more do you guys want? They can't lack transparency if there is nothing more to see.

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 79):
Quoting globalcabotage (Reply 1):
low-yield traffic to India, where only UA has 1 flight a day?

Two flights a day EWR-BEL and EWR-BOM. Surprisingly they seem to run those flights pretty full and even command quite a premium in terms of fare somehow.

I think this is the point. The US3 have an advantage here in that they can scoop up the premium passengers with a direct flight. EK can't compete on that level, so they pick up the lower-yield connecting passengers. Advantage US3, if only they'd keep going and try some more direct flights to the region.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:10 pm

Quoting COEWR787 (Reply 79):
Two flights a day EWR-BEL and EWR-BOM. Surprisingly they seem to run those flights pretty full and even command quite a premium in terms of fare somehow.

Yet, Delta and AA gave up non-stop India plans saying they are not very high yielding routes. Filling those planes isn't a problem, getting high yields is. Even AI's non-stops to US was losing money.

Thats where the ME3 advantage is. They can fill their F & C seats with passengers who are going through their hub to various destinations, not just India, and the back Y class is full of people going to Indian subcontinent.
 
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airzim
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 88):

Quoting airzim (Reply 76):
but it's impossible to tell given the lack of transparency

They have accounts audited by PWC which are available on their website. What more do you guys want? They can't lack transparency if there is nothing more to see.

Did you read the report? It does't say anything.

The fact that they are audited is meaningless to anyone except whatever the UAE government requires since they are privately held.
 
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BaconButty
Posts: 821
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:43 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 31):
You're missing the argument. The US3 are complaining about direct and indirect subsidies by the UAE and Qatari government. The totals are staggering and there is direct evidence of billions in interest free and totally forgiven loans to these carriers.

No, you're missing the point. This thread is clearly about Emirates rebuttal to the accusations of the US carriers of subsidies. These are detailed beginning at Page 27 in the dossier:
www.openandfairskies.com (Can't put the full link due to permissions issues)
And basically centre around:
1. Alleged Government assumption of fuel hedging losses ($1.6bn+)
2. $2.3bn from airport infrastructure
3. Unspecified subsidies from non-arm’s length transacting with related parties
And lots more wishy washy stuff that amounts to the UAE not being the US. Emirates have responded to these in the document linked by the OP, for example regarding the fuel hedge losses:

Quote:
That is untrue. All cash losses incurred by Emirates as a result of its fuel trades in place
in 2008/09 were settled in full from the airline’s own cash reserves and not paid for by the Government of Dubai.
The letters of credit mentioned in the white paper were in fact provided by Emirates to our owners, Investment
Corporation of Dubai, in support of the fuel trades novated, not the other way round.

The US3 have lumped EK in with the other two carriers because they are the ones they fear, but the arguments regarding subsidy are very different.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 71):
My posts don't have "FACT" stamp, unlike documents published by your fav carrier.

So now you are claiming to know which carrier is my favourite? You'd be wrong on that too. I have actually never flown on EK and it is definitely not my favourite airline. I am not a fan for any airline or aircraft manufacturer. I am a fan of facts and truth.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 71):
Your assumption is brothers are not holding any slots. Just checking, because you know 2+2 is never 4 with this enterprise.

Only for those people who can't add up, the same people who are imagining all this ME3 subterfuge.

Quoting airzim (Reply 74):
Ironic that you're quivaling on specifics given your broad baseless statements above.

I was not making broad-brush statements. I was talking specifically about the US3 bankruptcies and in every single one of their bankruptcies, very significant amounts of debt has been shed, or "erased" as described in the post I first questioned.

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 86):
What more do you guys want? They can't lack transparency if there is nothing more to see.

I'm sure this opacity that they are seeing is all in their minds. Or maybe they just need to open their eyes.
 
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speedbored
Posts: 2230
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 9:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
This comment and the consequent notes of approval are a lot more offensive than the original comment that brought these comments in the first place.

But I can sort of understand their point. While things might be a lot better now, both your country and my own have a lot of history to be very ashamed of.
 
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enzo011
Posts: 1853
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 10:09 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
This comment and the consequent notes of approval are a lot more offensive than the original comment that brought these comments in the first place. The US is a very free nation (but certainly has room to approve) and to attempt to negatively compare it to the UAE's record is both ill-informed and misguided. Attacking the attacker is a good strategy but I think you guys are making yourselves even more dirty than the original poster.

I don't think anyone is saying that the UAE has been brilliant for all the workers there. You just have to visit there to realise that it is no better than any other city in the world. You have your poor workers making the cities tick over, providing the services that those that are better off use. This is no different to any country in the world.

However when the same poster repeatedly cries slavery at least once in every ME3 thread you get the reaction you saw.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 9):
The U.S. might very well end Open Skies with the UAE because it has little benefit.

I think Boeing, GE and many other U.S. aerospace companies would disagree. The A380 also has a significant percentage of U.S. content.

Quoting airzim (Reply 81):
Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 75):
Its quite clear that American airlines have never gone further east than Europe or west than Hong Kong yet they have had plenty of oppourtunity. Its because American airlines tend to think America is the market but have overlooked the world as the market unlike EK.

That's ludicrous. Ever heard of Pan American?

And TWA, United, Delta, Northwest.
 
ukoverlander
Posts: 405
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 10:57 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 78):
This comment and the consequent notes of approval are a lot more offensive than the original comment that brought these comments in the first place.

Tortugamon - I appreciative your posts and often feel they add value to the discussion. However not in this particular case.

1) 'T.K' seems not to appreciate the historical context in relation to his comments (hence others quite naturally point out the irony).
2) 'T.K's' posts frequently appear to denigrate the ME3 based upon this supposition of slavery in the UAE - to my knowledge no link has ever been established between the ME3 and the ownership of slaves.
3) Unless you deny the existence of slavery in the USA (which I doubt you do) then with respect I think you are over-reaching in casting aspersions on those others who point out the contradiction.
4) Given that 'T.K' has said nothing since 'Reply 12' (when this contradiction was pointed out to him by a number of subscribers) perhaps upon reflection, maybe he can also see why others might have cause to disagree with him?

Just sayin'.

[Edited 2015-05-05 16:02:27]

[Edited 2015-05-05 16:04:27]
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 8242
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RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:27 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 85):
Once again, that doesn't make sense as even EK uses the US EXIM facility to buy Boeing planes. That was also a complaint by Delta about easy financing by Emirates through Exim as ExIm doesn't finance US companies. If the court had to review AI's books, then Delta or someone else could have asked it to review EK's finances too.

DL and JV partners yields were getting trashed on Indian routes, word on the street says AI is the culprit (mostly because of ME3 PR machine and some Indian competitors' false claims that AI lowers prices). Without doing much homework, DL fell for it and spent almost 2 years pursuing litigation against AI only to realize who the real culprits are two years later. After losing in circuit and appellate courts everyone thought DL will go to SCOTUS this year against AI.
All posts are just opinions.
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 95):
Without doing much homework, DL fell for it and spent almost 2 years pursuing litigation against AI only to realize who the real culprits are two years later. After losing in circuit and appellate courts everyone thought DL will go to SCOTUS this year against AI.

Do you have links for this? I tried to look up on internet for DL cases against Air India and couldn't find any
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Tue May 05, 2015 11:33 pm

Quoting airzim (Reply 30):
The common counter argument is Chapter 11 (falsely). US corporations are entitled to file for creditor protection which allows them to reorganize and renegotiate their debt with the PRIVATE markets (banks, shareholders, etc.) They do not erase debt and start with a clean slate (unlike the ME3)

Chapter 11 is governed by the US bankruptcy code which permits financial reorganization under the bankruptcy laws of the USA.

These laws govern and regulate everything about what is allowed under Chapter 11. It allows them to reorganize their debts with private institutions, but everything about Chapter 11 is controlled and regulated by laws. You even need approval from a court to enter into Chapter 11.

It is not simply a deal between companies and banks.

While they may not restart with a clean slate, companies usually will restart with significantly less debt. The private debt holders only take part in the deal because if there is no debt restructuring agreement, the threat is the company will fold and the debt holders get nothing. Essentially, they are forced to take what they can get.

They may not get rid of all of their debt, but they do get rid of most of it. For one thing, the airlines got to unload all of their pension debt and pass it off to the government...which was a savings of billions of dollars to the airlines. If the government picks up a bunch of your debt, that's a subsidy...period.

Quoting airzim (Reply 45):
Only if the creditors agree. Companies don't just get to walk away from debt obligations.

The creditors agree at gunpoint...and some do get nothing...while others might get as little as pennies on the dollar.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 52):
Well taking passports, immediately upon arrival, paying them of what amounts to meeger wages as close to the term indentured servitude, which is a form of imprisoned slavery

In Qatar, anybody who works in the country needs an entry visa and an exit visa, provided by the company....and that means every expat period. If the company wants, it can fire you, leave you without any job and no way to leave Qatar. If that's the definition of slavery, I guess every expat there was a slave.

Regardless, this is about the UAE, which operates by different laws.

Quoting speedbored (Reply 64):
Got a source for these supposed Dubai rules that prevent people from leaving should they choose to? I'm not aware of any such law. I am aware of many laws in Dubai that protect workers, however.

He's probably thinking about Qatar. There are illegal and abused workers in every country.

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 72):

Except Chapter 11 doesn't come from government funds, its all private.

Except, sometimes it does. The US government picked up the pension debts of the airlines to the tune of billions of dollars. As well, Chapter 11 is entirely regulated by US law. The creditors are not willing partners to bankruptcy, because it means they will lose money...sometimes all of what is owed them.

Chapter 11 deals with all entities that have a financial stake in a company, and some of those are government.
What the...?
 
greenjet
Posts: 875
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:59 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Wed May 06, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 95):
DL and JV partners yields were getting trashed on Indian routes

Funny how some of DL's JV partners have received state subsidies in the not too distant past but that gets overlooked.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1796
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

RE: Emirates Airlines And 16 Pages Of Open Skies!

Wed May 06, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 24):

They have choice to leave. Yes their situation does need to improve, but they can unionize. They can leave.

These Nepalese by all accounts cannot. Thats really my beef.

Quoting zeke (Reply 13):

Uh, people can be tricked in to slavery. They are tricked in to coming to UAE and forced to work under harsh conditions with no pay.

Look it up oin Google. Legitimate sources have documented this well BBC, The Guardian etc...So many sources.

[Edited 2015-05-05 17:28:59]

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