PlaneInsomniac
Topic Author
Posts: 418
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:34 am

Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 5:55 pm

It seems Russian media are slowly returning from their trip to outer space and are beginning to admit what sane people around the world have long accepted as the truth.

A respected Russian newspaper openly contradicts the Kreml's conspiracy theories according to which MH17 was shot down by a phantom Ukrainian plane. They now concede that the only explanation for the condition of the wreckage is that the 777 was shot down by a Russian-made Buk missile.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-russischer-zeitung-a-1032435.html
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 629
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 6:10 pm

A quick search reveals that Novaya Gazeta is "well known in its country for its critical and investigative coverage of Russian political and social affairs"

Not sure their view represents that of the Kremlin or the prevalent opinion in Russia.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2487
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 6:18 pm

That's not a shock, it was obvious to all but the hardcore conspiracy theorists and hipsters that a BUK was by far the most likely culprit. The question of 'who dunnit' will probably never be answered. But it's easier to work out when the weapon of choice is known.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 7:20 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 2):
That's not a shock, it was obvious to all but the hardcore conspiracy theorists and hipsters that a BUK was by far the most likely culprit

The fact that the Dutch investigationn should be issuing its report soon - and will undoubtedly offer the same conclusion - might have something to do with the timing of this article.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
WROORD
Posts: 743
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:36 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 11:38 pm

We all knew that anyway, but interesting that they admit. Putin never admits to anything.
 
col
Posts: 1707
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:11 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Wed May 06, 2015 11:48 pm

Now we need Russia to handover the people responsible for these murders. But can't see Putin doing anything, as he should be on the front seat of the bus.
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 2):
That's not a shock, it was obvious to all but the hardcore conspiracy theorists and hipsters that a BUK was by far the most likely culprit. The question of 'who dunnit' will probably never be answered

  

Agreed that we still most likely will never know 'who did it?' - which IMHO is one of the most important questions that needs to be answered.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
rj777
Posts: 1801
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:19 am

I bet the MH17 of "Mayday: Air Crash Investigation" will be up relatively soon, if it's not filming already.
 
User avatar
TheFlyingDisk
Posts: 1918
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:19 am

Didn't Novaya Gazeta present the front page headline "Forgive us, Netherlands" with the haunting image of the cortege of MH17 victims? Not surprising that they're not presenting Russia's version of the story.

Definitely not admission from Putin yet.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9781
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:41 am

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Thread starter):
They now concede that the only explanation for the condition of the wreckage is that the 777 was shot down by a Russian-made Buk missile.

Fired by who? If they say Ukraine then it means absolutely nothing.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2487
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:52 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
Fired by who? If they say Ukraine then it means absolutely nothing.

If the story changes then it's a good bet that they're lying, and if they've been lying about who did it, then maybe they have something to hide...
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2726
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 12:56 am

I bet some scapegoats already found their way into shallow graves. Might have even been the actual idiots who fired. It's far easier to keep a narrative intact when the people hurt by it are already unable to contest it.
 
User avatar
SLCUT2777
Posts: 3461
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Agreed that we still most likely will never know 'who did it?' - which IMHO is one of the most important questions that needs to be answered.

If they ever do find out who, they should be tried as war criminals.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
sovietjet
Posts: 2672
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2003 12:32 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 4:42 am

I don't think anyone, even Russians, had doubt that it was a Buk. The question of who pressed the button is the interesting one, and most likely will not be answered. Whoever did it has probably "disappeared" by now, 6 feet under the ground somewhere...
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4704
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 4):
Putin never admits to anything.

He did boast about the Russian military taking over Crimea, after denying forever that the little green men with guns weren't Russian troops.

Russia sure is making it difficult for its hordes of news comments writers to keep up.

I think it's good that the investigation is taking this long. It needs to be very thorough, because no matter the conclusions, it will be controversial.
What the...?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 6:41 am

Quoting col (Reply 5):
Now we need Russia to handover the people responsible for these murders.

Did the US hand over the Vincennes Captain, no they did not, they gave Rogers a freeking medal for his gross incompetence.
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 7:05 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Agreed that we still most likely will never know 'who did it?' - which IMHO is one of the most important questions that needs to be answered.

I have to disagree here. I don't think the who is the most important. I think we all knew the who, it is the WHY that is important. This was not the first shoot down! Are the Russians testing their missiles against civilian airliners, a test? If so this is unbelievable. I think it is so. How many airliners do you have to shoot down before you realize the missiles work against unarmed and non evading targets. Ridiculous that every govt. is letting them get away with this! Nice practice shot buddy. Putin proved his point didn't he, disrupt air traffic and show the missiles worked.
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2324
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 8:26 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 8):
Didn't Novaya Gazeta present the front page headline "Forgive us, Netherlands" with the haunting image of the cortege of MH17 victims?

Yes:

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1930643/original.jpg

Quoting enilria (Reply 9):
Fired by who? If they say Ukraine then it means absolutely nothing.

Indeed that is what they say:

http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/68332.html

I haven't had the time to read it but it is very detailed. I am not surprised they blame the Ukraine, but it is interesting that apparently they have given up on the Su-25 hypothesis (that really had been untenable from the beginning anyway).

It is interesting that it was Novaya Gazeta coming up with this: if it was intentionally leaked to coincide with the publication of the Dutch report then the Russian government is de facto using Novaya Gazeta as a PR instrument which would be quite ironic, or otherwise it was not intended to be leaked. However, if it would contain objective information pointing at Ukrainian responsibility then this would have been the first thing Krelin-backed media would have published, right? Or maybe it was leaked to Novaya Gazeta to make it appear less biased, no idea.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
KC135Hydraulics
Posts: 443
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:05 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 8:46 am

Has the investigation determined exactly what damage the missile inflicted that caused the plane to crash? Was is the rapid decompression, a severing of flight controls, flight crew neutralization, etc. etc.
MSgt, USAF
KC-135R / C-17A Pneudraulic Systems Mechanic Supervisor
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2487
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 9:13 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
Did the US hand over the Vincennes Captain, no they did not, they gave Rogers a freeking medal for his gross incompetence.

You know the name of the guy who did it, which is a step up from not knowing which side shot down MH17. Sheer incompetence is the name of the game in both cases, for mistaking an A300 for an F-14, and mistaking a 777 for a cargo plane or whatever happened.
 
User avatar
Istanbuler83
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:30 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 9:35 am

Please correct me, if I am wrong, but as far as I know there is no transparency on the Ukranian side of the whole story at all. It was the Ukranians who didn't release any ATC data from the day of the incident. It was the Ukrainians who fired the Spanish air traffic controller working for the Ukranian government in Kiev and forced him to leave the country after posting on twitter, that Ukrainian jet fighters were in air near the Boeing when it disappeared. And the U.S. government could not release any satalite date which could prove that the MH17 was hit by a russian missile. So, do we have any proof that the Russians did it? Or Am I missing something?
Istanbuler83
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2487
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 9:50 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 20):
Please correct me, if I am wrong, but as far as I know there is no transparency on the Ukranian side of the whole story at all. It was the Ukranians who didn't release any ATC data from the day of the incident. It was the Ukrainians who fired the Spanish air traffic controller working for the Ukranian government in Kiev and forced him to leave the country after posting on twitter, that Ukrainian jet fighters were in air near the Boeing when it disappeared. And the U.S. government could not release any satalite date which could prove that the MH17 was hit by a russian missile. So, do we have any proof that the Russians did it? Or Am I missing something?

A lot of the things you describe are uncertain at best. The Spanish ATC controller is reputed to have been there, but I've never seen any credible evidence of his participation in anything, nor why a Spanish person would be working there.

There may have been Ukrainian fighters in the area, but they have little meaning in the context of who shot it down, because they didn't.

The US Govt may not have satellite photos, these photos may not show anything, but I wouldn't expect any govt worth its salt to reveal how good its surveillance is anyway.


Long story short, there is no proof WHATSOEVER as to who did it. It was definitely a BUK launcher, which would mean the most likely culprit is the Pro-Russian rebels. Russia would be the provider of the knife in this case, so a degree of blame would be on them. Just as blame would be on the morons who shot the plane down, international organisations and Ukraine for not shutting down the airspace when they knew a war was on. Blame for everyone!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 9:55 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 21):
Ukraine for not shutting down the airspace when they knew a war was on.

This is where the majority of the blame is. The rest was just an unfortunate mistake. If the airspace was closed as it should have been the incident would never have happened.
 
User avatar
garpd
Posts: 2508
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:29 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 18):
Has the investigation determined exactly what damage the missile inflicted that caused the plane to crash? Was is the rapid decompression, a severing of flight controls, flight crew neutralization, etc. etc.

Does it really matter exactly how the plane came apart?
There are plenty of pictures on the net for you the check out.

There is a huge hole underneath the Captains side window, surrounded by hundreds of smaller shrapnel sized holes.
The large hole also exhibits scorching, indication the missile exploded very close.

The most likely result was the crown and side panels of the flight deck peeling up and away, followed in short order by the rest of the fuselage breaking up in the air stream. All the while, the plane banked left. (The No.1 engine cowl frame exhibits shrapnel hits too, so it is possible No.1 engine failed due to FOD from the missile, causing the left bank)
arpdesign.wordpress.com
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 1985
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 10:18 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):
This is where the majority of the blame is. The rest was just an
unfortunate mistake. If the airspace was closed as it should have been the incident would
never have happened.

The majority of the blame is on those who operated the BUK and possible those who
equipped the rebels with the BUK. If they wouldn't have screwed up the incident would
never have happened.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
User avatar
777Jet
Posts: 6977
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:29 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 10:30 am

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 16):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):Agreed that we still most likely will never know 'who did it?' - which IMHO is one of the most important questions that needs to be answered.

I have to disagree here. I don't think the who is the most important.

I also don't think that 'who' "is the most important" question. Like I said, I think that 'who' is "one of the most important questions"  
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 16):
I think we all knew the who,

If you know for certain who fired the BUK that brought down MH17 then please let us know.

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 16):
it is the WHY that is important.

Finding out 'why' is also very important, but it will be pretty impossible to find out 'why' that BUK was launched in that area at that specific time without a 'who' to interrogate, no?
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
yenne09
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 12:02 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
Did the US hand over the Vincennes Captain, no they did not, they gave Rogers a freeking medal for his gross incompetence.

Do not forget that Guantanamo does not respect at all the international law. Why Western governments remained so
silent about the MH17? It is surprising.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3125
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 1:59 pm

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 11):
bet some scapegoats already found their way into shallow graves

Probably some poor Chechnyan who has been told his family will all be killed unless he confesses...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):
This is where the majority of the blame is. The rest was just an unfortunate mistake. If the airspace was closed as it should have been the incident would never have happened.

Another Russian apologist...    ..no, the majority of the blame falls on the idiot who pushed the button and fired the missile. Period.

The fact that he was probably a Russian national trying to invade a neighboring country makes it even more apalling.

[Edited 2015-05-07 07:00:15]
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
User avatar
neutrino
Posts: 1536
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 22):

While you are at it, why not go the whole hog and blame the Wright Brothers. After all, if they did not invent the Flyer, there will be no airliners flying around and so no MH17 to shoot down.   
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3740
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting yenne09 (Reply 29):
Do not forget that Guantanamo does not respect at all the international law. Why Western governments remained so
silent about the MH17? It is surprising

Most victims were from small countries like The Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia who have less power , selfconfidence and power to protest , than if for example there were many Americans on board.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 4:35 pm

The missile "technical nationality" is only one thing.

How can one pretend that it was fired by pro-Russian rebels? Don't Ukrainian regular troops have buk missiles, too?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 30):
Another Russian apologist... ..no, the majority of the blame falls on the idiot who pushed the button and fired the missile. Period.

Not an apologist just someone who is looking beyond the emotional knew jerk reactions of most people. It's pretty simple the rebels had been shooting down Ukrainian planes for a while, the Ukrainian govt knew this and failed to act responsibly, I would bet most sensible govts would have shut down there airspace the moment the first shots were fired, Ukraine didn't so they shoulder most of the blame. The US shuts down airspace in the US quick smart on 9/11, this is what Ukraine should have done.

Quoting neutrino (Reply 31):
While you are at it, why not go the whole hog and blame the Wright Brothers. After all, if they did not invent the Flyer, there will be no airliners flying around and so no MH17 to shoot down.

What a stupid comment, besides you can't blame them they weren't the first to fly.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 32):
Most victims were from small countries like The Netherlands, Malaysia and Australia who have less power , selfconfidence and power to protest , than if for example there were many Americans on board.

What a load of crap, in no way can you call Australia a country lacking in self-confidence with no power to react. IMO the reason why they aren't reacting is because they know that the blame lies not just with Russia but also with Ukraine and that wouldn't be PC to place blame on them, so they stay stum.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2487
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 33):
How can one pretend that it was fired by pro-Russian rebels? Don't Ukrainian regular troops have buk missiles, too?

They may well do, but then you would have to ask how a Ukrainian BUK was in rebel territory, a few miles from Russia, without anyone knowing it's there, and then how after doing the deed, it managed to get back/escape unscathed. Then you would ask why? The plane flew over Ukraine for the whole length from the Polish border across, and with no rebel aircraft existing, there's only one place the blame would go. And don't bring up the 'it was mistaken for Putin's plane' line, if you can see colours on it, you can see the twin engines (and contrails) and thus easily identify it as a normal airliner.
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 5:26 pm

Blaming the rebels who shot it down is like blaming a young child for breaking a vase that was near the ground. Sure the baby actually did it and if they hadn’t it wouldn’t have been broken, but where does the blame actually lie? Is it with the baby that did it or the parents for allowing the vase to be in a position where it could get broken? According to most here the rebels are “drunk” and “incompetent”. So why would you expect that they aren’t capable of an act like this? If they are so incompetent and unpredictable then you should expect that there is the possibility that they can fire upon any aircraft that happens to pass nearby. So why would Ukraine allow their airspace to remain open, at least over the troubled areas? Even if they didn’t expect something like this at all, they know it’s a conflict area and there are risks. MH17 being shot down was an indirect consequence of the conflict in Ukraine; however it was a direct consequence of Ukraine not closing its airspace.

I personally am thinking about this from an aviation perspective not a political one which most here seem to be doing. I care about air safety. The point of an investigation is not to apportion blame but to try and find out how similar accidents can be avoided in the future. Blaming the rebels does nothing for air safety. ICAO can’t ban rebels, Buks or War. However a sanction in the form of a penalty for countries that keep their airspace open even if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the passage of safe flight is compromised can. Whenever there is a conflict airlines can’t be expected to dispatch someone to the scene to report whether it is safe, it’s the states responsibility to close down their airspace. Even if Ukraine didn’t know that the rebels had a Buk or a weapon that could reach those altitudes, and they had no way of verifying, they should still close the airspace until they know for sure.
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3778
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 5:56 pm

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 17):
I haven't had the time to read it but it is very detailed. I am not surprised they blame the Ukraine,

I don't speak Russian, so I am going from Dutch sources (radio 1 news, usually reliable) . Apparantly Novaja Gazeta mentions that MH17 was shut down by a Buk fired from (or nearby) Zarosjtsjenkoje. In passing they mention that Zarosjtsjenkoje was in Ukrainian hands at the time of the shooting. The Dutch news looked at maps of the front lines around the time of the shooting and can only conclude that Zarosjtsjenkoje was firmly in hands of the seperatists and that there was no fighting in the area.

Dutch video
http://nos.nl/video/2034291-rusland-...raket-haalde-vlucht-mh17-neer.html
https://www.google.nl/maps/search/Zarosjtsjenkoje/@47.9876679,38.4480974,14z/data=!3m1!4b1?hl=nl
Attamottamotta!
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1391
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting neutrino (Reply 31):
While you are at it, why not go the whole hog and blame the Wright Brothers. After all, if they did not invent the Flyer, there will be no airliners flying around and so no MH17 to shoot down.

Since the 777 is not launched with a slingshot, and instead takes off under its own power, I would blame Alberto Santos-Dumont instead.  
Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 36):
However a sanction in the form of a penalty for countries that keep their airspace open even if they have reasonable grounds to suspect that the passage of safe flight is compromised can.

And there lies the crux of the matter. As far as the government of the Ukraine knew, the rebels did not have any platform capable of engaging aircraft at that altitude (and there was a restriction on lower altitude flying over the conflict area, as far as I know). Someone escalated the conflict by providing a BUK system to the rebels, without informing the international community. That party gave the metaphorical gun to the metaphorical baby.

And yet, we are talking of actual adults here. And they are responsible for their actions. So the persons operating that missile system are directly responsible, the government of Russia is responsible by comission, and the government of the Ukraine is responsible only by omission (not having predicted escalation of the conflict envelope).
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3135
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 27):

Why are you repeating yourself?

It is a pro Russian troll/bot that must have had some programming error.

Everyone knows who did it, the rebels admitted on social media when they were celebrating shooting down a Ukrainian military plane, or so they thought. Anyone still asking questions has an agenda and should not be taken seriously.
 
Scipio
Posts: 926
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Thu May 07, 2015 11:34 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 34):
Not an apologist just someone who is looking beyond the emotional knew jerk reactions of most people.

Give us a break. Everything you post about Ukraine is motivated by some kind of irrational Ukrainophobia. Not sure what kind of trauma you suffered in Ukraine, but clearly you never recovered from it.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 36):
So why would Ukraine allow their airspace to remain open, at least over the troubled areas?

The Ukrainians knew the "rebels" didn't have any functioning Buks. Someone brought in a functioning Buk, almost certainly along with the crew, from across the border. The airspace over Donbass was closed up to 10,000 meters, which was fully consistent with what was known about the anti-aircraft capabilities of the "rebels".

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 38):
And there lies the crux of the matter. As far as the government of the Ukraine knew, the rebels did not have any platform capable of engaging aircraft at that altitude (and there was a restriction on lower altitude flying over the conflict area, as far as I know). Someone escalated the conflict by providing a BUK system to the rebels, without informing the international community. That party gave the metaphorical gun to the metaphorical baby.

  


Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 39):
Everyone knows who did it, the rebels admitted on social media when they were celebrating shooting down a Ukrainian military plane, or so they thought. Anyone still asking questions has an agenda and should not be taken seriously.

  
 
User avatar
AirlineCritic
Posts: 1703
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 39):
Everyone knows who did it, the rebels admitted on social media when they were celebrating shooting down a Ukrainian military plane, or so they thought. Anyone still asking questions has an agenda and should not be taken seriously.

  

The evidence is damning. I'll add the pictures and videos about the BUK transport, linked to rebel-held cities.

We do not know for sure, but I do believe it was an accident, i.e., non-intentional. But the way that the rebels were staffed, equipped, and managed... give drunken idiots big guns... that is where the crime lies.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 6:28 am

Quoting SR4ever (Reply 33):
The missile "technical nationality" is only one thing.

How can one pretend that it was fired by pro-Russian rebels? Don't Ukrainian regular troops have buk missiles, too?

Yes, but you are forgetting that many in here think that the Ukrainian Buk's are "good", and therefore incapable of doing harm to any Westerners.

OTOH, the Russian Buks excel in hitting Western airliners, specially if they are full of innocent people.

Bad, bad Russian Buks, bad.

  
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 6:40 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 42):
Yes, but you are forgetting that many in here think that the Ukrainian Buk's are "good", and therefore incapable of doing harm to any Westerners.

there is simple logic involved:

Terrorists: reason to shoot at aircraft, because they are almost definitely enemy aircraft, zero risk for blue on blue.
Ukraine: no reason to shoot at anything in the air, unless Russia started supplementing the tanks, guns and artillery support with fighter bombers. They had especially no reason to shoot at an aircraft flying west to east. And, civil ATC and military air control being combined, the armed forces knew where civil aircraft have been, the terrorists did not.

That just makes it indefinitely more likely that the bad guys fired the BUK.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12472
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 7:10 am

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 38):
As far as the government of the Ukraine knew, the rebels did not have any platform capable of engaging aircraft at that altitude (and there was a restriction on lower altitude flying over the conflict area, as far as I know).

They did know, an AN-26 flying at 6500m was shot down by a BUK 3 day prior to MH-17.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28299334
 
SR4ever
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:19 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 8:04 am

Frankly, I d refrain from drawing too easy and quick inferences...

Malaysia has been surprisingly very quiet about that disaster from the very beginning by the way.
 
hinckley
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 9:22 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 39):
Everyone knows who did it, the rebels admitted on social media when they were celebrating shooting down a Ukrainian military plane,

Of course. Period. A tragic event in the fog of war.

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 36):
Blaming the rebels who shot it down is like blaming a young child for breaking a vase that was near the ground.

You sound like RT. Or the North Korean ministry of information. Or Khrushchev banging his shoe. Bombast does not equal truth. More bombast still does not equal truth.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
Did the US hand over the Vincennes Captain, no they did not, they gave Rogers a freeking medal for his gross incompetence.

The US military is as incompetent as any other military. But the US admitted their mistake within days of the incident. It was followed-up by a pretty lengthy Pentagon report within a couple of months outlining the mistakes of the captain and officers of the Vincennes. The US paid restitution to the Iranian victims' families (without resorting to silly statements like "the Iranian plane shouldn't have been flying over a battle zone"). Again, the US is FAR from perfect, but it stepped up and did the right thing. Now, compare that to the Russians and Ukrainian rebels . . .
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 38):
And there lies the crux of the matter. As far as the government of the Ukraine knew, the rebels did not have any platform capable of engaging aircraft at that altitude (and there was a restriction on lower altitude flying over the conflict area, as far as I know). Someone escalated the conflict by providing a BUK system to the rebels, without informing the international community. That party gave the metaphorical gun to the metaphorical baby.

Of course, but with all these lives at stake, is “we don’t think they have anything that is a threat” good enough? The thing about conflict zones is that they are changing constantly. Unless Ukraine knew without any doubt that the rebels didn’t have anything that could reach those altitudes then they should have taken the steps to close the airspace, at least over that region. As a pilot you care about one thing when flying, the safety of the passengers and crew. Who is causing what conflict, who is responsible for a conflict, who is acting illegally, etc is all irrelevant at that stage. All of this is out of the pilots control, and there is nothing in terms of aviation that can be done about it. The thing that can be done is a reroute to avoid this area altogether. Sure it may cost more in terms of fuel and overflight fees but of course this is not important. As I said before, the conflict itself had nothing to do with the accident before it happened. The conflict wasn’t started to shoot down a passenger aircraft. It was indirectly caused by the conflict. However it was a direct consequence of the failure to close the airspace.

Quoting mrocktor (Reply 38):
And yet, we are talking of actual adults here. And they are responsible for their actions. So the persons operating that missile system are directly responsible, the government of Russia is responsible by comission, and the government of the Ukraine is responsible only by omission (not having predicted escalation of the conflict envelope).

The difference is that the rebels aren’t trained soldiers operating under war guidelines. If you were flying over a region that is undergoing war with a trained army, it is less of a threat because they are forced to adhere to guidelines, forced to do their due diligence etc and are ultimately accountable. Rebels aren’t, they could line random people up and shoot them without any fear of anything, because ultimately their existence itself is illegal to an extent. So there is that possibility that if they lay their hands on a weapon that can reach an aircraft at cruise they might fire without even sparing a second thought. So you don’t give them that opportunity. Shut the airspace so they don’t have the chance. Of course they are responsible, of course it is their fault, of course it’s disgusting, but I am trying to look at the bigger picture of avoiding things like this ever again.

It is fine if people disagree with me, but I personally would not consider myself to be a good pilot if I didn’t think this way. If I thought yep its Russia and Putin’s fault cronies drunks thugs etc, because that doesn’t help. I am thinking in terms of how things like this can be avoided, and how air safety as a whole can be improved. I am thinking in terms of the safety of the passengers not in a politically motivated way. As a passenger, which gives you more confidence? The plane avoiding the route altogether due to the airspace being shut because there is a conflict that is happening on the ground, or continuing to fly over it because its Russia and Putin’s fault?
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
AIRWALK
Posts: 239
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:33 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting hinckley (Reply 46):
You sound like RT. Or the North Korean ministry of information. Or Khrushchev banging his shoe. Bombast does not equal truth. More bombast still does not equal truth.

No, I sound like a pilot that cares more about the passenger’s safety than some childish grudge. I actually find it quite disgusting that people are bringing in their political stances and beliefs into this. Sounds to me like they don’t care about the innocent lives that were lost, but relish any chance to bring in their hate for a country any way they can. If the rebels were from any other country than Russia, people might have been able to have a productive discussion about it. But people are unable to put that aside. Talk of the conflict and how illegal it is does nothing for air safety. It is another discussion that is frankly quite irrelevant to this one. No matter how you look at it it’s simple. If you say there is a conflict, the rebels are illegally invading a country, Putin is supporting it, he is providing them weapons, etc, it still comes down to Ukraine having the option to close their airspace. And they didn’t. I am not absolving blame from the rebels, I am not saying that it isn’t terrible and if they didn’t fire, there would be no accident. All I am saying is that the rebels were there, they were shooting down planes. This was a known fact. At this stage Ukraine couldn’t do anything about the rebels, but they could have closed the airspace
I'm sure this thread will take off soon
 
sharktail
Posts: 136
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:41 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 35):
They may well do, but then you would have to ask how a Ukrainian BUK was in rebel territory, a few miles from Russia, without anyone knowing it's there, and then how after doing the deed, it managed to get back/escape unscathed. Then you would ask why? The plane flew over Ukraine for the whole length from the Polish border across, and with no rebel aircraft existing, there's only one place the blame would go. And don't bring up the 'it was mistaken for Putin's plane' line, if you can see colours on it, you can see the twin engines (and contrails) and thus easily identify it as a normal airliner.



Correct. There is no reason for Ukrainian troops to try to shoot their own troops out of the sky. Rebels were trying to prevent the resupply of Ukrainian forces.

There is no doubt about who did it: The BUK was deployed on the rebels side by either Rebel or Russian troops.

Now who should be blamed? In order of responsibility, high to low:

- The Russian government (80%) - they aided and abetted in mass murder of civilians. They also did not ask for the airspace to be shut down even though they knew nobody should fly there.
- The Ukrainian government (15%)- they should have shut down the airspace
- The international airline organizations (3%)- For not having a better system to shut down airspace that is not deemed safe to fly
- The other airlines that started avoiding the Ukraine (2%) - for not sharing their information with other airlines and MH in particular.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11638
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 1:55 pm

Quoting sharktail (Reply 49):
They also did not ask for the airspace to be shut down even though they knew nobody should fly there.

  
They didn´t even have to go all the way and tell the world that they are providing state of the art air defense to those terrorists, they could have cooked up some stories about having proof they captured a working BUK system from the Ukrainian forces. After all they are good in cooking up false evidence, like Su-25s radar tracks and photoshoped billboards behind BUK lunchers on Trucks...

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
hinckley
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 2:55 pm

Quoting AIRWALK (Reply 45):
I actually find it quite disgusting that people are bringing in their political stances and beliefs into this.

Sorry mate. No politics here.

As an American, I understand that the US royally f-ed up with the Vincennes. Thank god my government admitted it. They don't always do that. In this case, the Russian propaganda is laughable. Do you remember when my country (illegally) invaded Iraq and Saddam's spokesman said there were no US troops in the country just as the Marines were taking Baghdad airport? The Russians are acting like that today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAeMtcURg0

If the Russian government wants to be treated as a great power, they've got to act like a great power. Time to grow up.
 
hinckley
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Russia Admits MH17 Was Shot Down By Buk Missile

Fri May 08, 2015 3:05 pm

Quoting sharktail (Reply 46):
Now who should be blamed? In order of responsibility, high to low:

- The Russian government (80%) - they aided and abetted in mass murder of civilians. They also did not ask for the airspace to be shut down even though they knew nobody should fly there.
- The Ukrainian government (15%)- they should have shut down the airspace
- The international airline organizations (3%)- For not having a better system to shut down airspace that is not deemed safe to fly
- The other airlines that started avoiding the Ukraine (2%) - for not sharing their information with other airlines and MH in particular.

I would disagree just a bit.

It seems pretty clear that the rebels "pulled the trigger" based on the messages just after the shoot down. You have to blame the triggerman first and foremost imo. Are Russian fingerprints all over this? Absolutely. Did the Ukrainian government act cavalierly by not shutting down the airspace? Of course. But I still gotta blame the triggerman first (but not only).

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos