8herveg
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Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 12:29 pm

Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3, so that it can accomodate the flights currently in T1, to T5.

Am I right in thinking that these were the flights chosen because they are primarily O & D routes? I.e. not many passengers connecting onto them at T5.

If that is the case, would there be any benefit to moving them to LGW, so that BA can launch new routes from LHR?

Certainly DEN, MIA, NBO and PHX were operated from LGW prior to 911 - I'm guessing because they are more leisure routes?
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Am I right in thinking that these were the flights chosen because they are primarily O & D routes? I.e. not many passengers connecting onto them at T5.

If that is the case, would there be any benefit to moving them to LGW, so that BA can launch new routes from LHR?

Certainly DEN, MIA, NBO and PHX were operated from LGW prior to 911 - I'm guessing because they are more leisure routes?

BA will either choose the flights on the basis of having the least transfer passengers, or being ones where there are few if any viable alternative routings on other airlines.

Even then, transfer is still available on site, whereas if they moved to LGW transfer would only be from a small number of routes.

The US routes used to be at LGW as the Bermuda treaties restricted the number of destinations in the USA that BA could operate to.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 12:53 pm

The two times I flew LHR-PHX-LHR the flight was packed with Dutch, German and Scandinavian passengers. I would be very interested in seeing the actual OD/transfer ratio.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
pilot21
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 12:57 pm

I would suggest it is a combination of fewer transfer pax and a heavier leisure based clientele who wouldn't be as disappointed with missing out on T5 vs. premium heavy routes such as JFK, LAX etc.

MIA use to operate from T3 in the days of T1, T3 and T4 BA operations - so obviously not much has changed in terms of pax make-up.

Of course I could just throw a small nugget into the mix - T3 = A380 gates   

Pilot21
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GSTBA
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Am I right in thinking that these were the flights chosen because they are primarily O & D routes? I.e. not many passengers connecting onto them at T5.

The long-haul cities have been chosen due to the time of day they operate in and out of Heathrow and the type of 747 they use. They need to have a mix of short-haul and long-haul flights in T3 and T5 to make the most effective use of the stands and baggage facilities available in both terminals.

All the destinations ex T3 are served by a mid J (14F/52J/36W/235Y) 747, with the exception of 1 of the daily MIA services
 
fcogafa
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting pilot21 (Reply 3):
Of course I could just throw a small nugget into the mix - T3 = A380 gates   

The MIA flight is an A380, so yes

The flights currently in T1 move to T3 and T5 in June
 
SelseyBill
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 1:49 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3, so that it can accomodate the flights currently in T1, to T5.

Does this mean BA are only 4/5 w/b piers away from accommodation all their LHR flights at T5 ?
 
GSTBA
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 6):
Does this mean BA are only 4/5 w/b piers away from accommodation all their LHR flights at T5 ?

Ideally BA would like for a 5D building to be built with around 10-12 airbridges then maybe they could accomodate everything at T5.

It's a shame the T5 transit train that runs to B and C gates doesn't continue to T3.
 
8herveg
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 7):
Ideally BA would like for a 5D building to be built with around 10-12 airbridges then maybe they could accomodate everything at T5.

It's a shame the T5 transit train that runs to B and C gates doesn't continue to T3.

Is T5D going to happen? Would they then knock down T3 completly? If so, wouldn't this have an impact on T5A - more passengers arriving and departing?
 
CXfirst
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 8):
Is T5D going to happen? Would they then knock down T3 completly? If so, wouldn't this have an impact on T5A - more passengers arriving and departing?

I'm still hoping that they redevelop T3 to become the other end of the toast rack. Build a D concourse, E concourse, and make T3 and F concourse. Connect T3 to T5 via all the concourses and make the concourses common use for both T3 and T5. So, eventually BA check-in is at T5, Oneworld at T3, but connecting would be seamless, as it would all be one terminal in essence.

However, the above is easier said then done, difficult to rebuild T3 entirely while keeping the same level of operations going, but connecting the current T3 to the transit system should still be feasible. Makes gate space more flexible, while also making connections across the terminals better.

-CXfirst
 
MonsieurX
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3

Wasn't it recently announced that several of these flights were being 'down-graded' to a 747 with old First, which would no longer be sold to passengers (only opened occasionally as overflow-J to high status J passengers). Interestingly though, I haven't heard anything about old First being allocated to NBO, and in many ways I'd be quite shocked if it was.

Could this have anything to do with the terminal moves?

X
 
pilot21
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting MonsieurX (Reply 10):

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3

Wasn't it recently announced that several of these flights were being 'down-graded' to a 747 with old First, which would no longer be sold to passengers (only opened occasionally as overflow-J to high status J passengers). Interestingly though, I haven't heard anything about old First being allocated to NBO, and in many ways I'd be quite shocked if it was.

Could this have anything to do with the terminal moves?

X

There are only a few services which are currently downgraded to a J class F cabin - LAS, PHX, CPT and occasionally Accra and Vancouver. These will return to full F service after Oct'15 as the aircraft have their F-cabin's refitted (or the 2 remaining 2000 style F-cabin B744's are retired) , so will not make a difference on these routes post the terminal change.

Pilot21
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rta
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 4:53 pm

Are all MIA flights departing from Terminal 3 or just one of them? There are 2 flights to Miami, and sometimes 3.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting SelseyBill (Reply 6):
Does this mean BA are only 4/5 w/b piers away from accommodation all their LHR flights at T5 ?

BA already have a substantial presence in T3 so it would need to be rather more than 4/5 gates

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 7):
Ideally BA would like for a 5D building to be built with around 10-12 airbridges then maybe they could accomodate everything at T5.

I doubt that would be enough, not only are there the routes already at T3 and due to transfer but also the planes that have to stand on remote stands.
 
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speedbored
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 7:49 pm

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 7):
It's a shame the T5 transit train that runs to B and C gates doesn't continue to T3.
Quoting CXfirst (Reply 9):
but connecting the current T3 to the transit system should still be feasible.

I'm convinced that I read somewhere that connecting the T5 transit to T3 is actually planned for the near future. I just wish I could remember where.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Thu May 07, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting pilot21 (Reply 3):

I would suggest it is a combination of fewer transfer pax and a heavier leisure based clientele who wouldn't be as disappointed with missing out on T5 vs. premium heavy routes such as JFK, LAX etc.

MIA use to operate from T3 in the days of T1, T3 and T4 BA operations - so obviously not much has changed in terms of pax make-up.

Careful now... on this site, unpleasant things happen to people who even hint that Miami isn't chock-full of unrelenting premium demand. MIA passengers deserve - no, they DEMAND - to be escorted through T5 in robes made of the finest silk, to the all-F class A380 that carries them in pure elegance to the world's most ultra-premium city.

[Edited 2015-05-07 14:49:59]
 
seat64k
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 1:06 am

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
If that is the case, would there be any benefit to moving them to LGW, so that BA can launch new routes from LHR?

With Virgin discontinuing their CPT flight, the BA flight is the *only* direct flight from LHR. I would be most upset if this moves to LGW.
 
KD5MDK
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 1:30 am

BA is more aircraft constrained than slot constrained now, so moving flights to LGW doesn't improve anything.
 
jrfspa320
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 2:32 am

Any idea if BA will bring the lounge up to T5 standard will more flights using T3
 
747megatop
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting speedbored (Reply 14):
I'm convinced that I read somewhere that connecting the T5 transit to T3 is actually planned for the near future. I just wish I could remember where.

Yes, I have read it too. For example, one such place where that is depicted in a diagram is page 59 of - http://s3.amazonaws.com/zanran_stora....baa.com/ContentPages/46733357.pdf .I have seen a mention of that in other places too. But i have also seen the mention of complete demolition of terminal 3 in other master plans as well; so i am not sure what they are planning ultimately but my money would be on demolition of terminal 3 and building more T5 satellites.
 
windshear
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 8:30 am

T3 will become a oneworld terminal rebuilt and more connected with T5, so maybe this is the start of this process?

Boaz.
"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
 
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cathay747
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 7:51 pm

It just blows my mind that with all the hype leading up
to T5's opening about how BA would, for the first time
in it's history, have all their flight ops in ONE terminal,
they're right back to the old days of split terminal ops.

What a pain in the rear.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
skipness1E
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 8:19 pm

Gatwick has been tried and tried again. Moving a BA flight to LGW just benefits anyone who operates as a competitor out of LHR. The front end passengers just remain at LHR.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 9:18 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 21):

It just blows my mind that with all the hype leading up
to T5's opening about how BA would, for the first time
in it's history, have all their flight ops in ONE terminal,
they're right back to the old days of split terminal ops.

What a pain in the rear.

BA have managed to increase their % of LHR flights from 36% to around 52% between 2001 and now. They would fit in T5 if they were the size of 2001

Quoting KD5MDK (Reply 17):

BA is more aircraft constrained than slot constrained now, so moving flights to LGW doesn't improve anything.

BA could have extended the life of many frames if they were in need of more capacity
 
jfk777
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 10:03 pm

Can't see BA flying an A380 from Terminal 3 to Miami, a 744 could fly from T3. When BA flies their A380 to a city it implies their best and part of that a t LHR is Terminal 5.
 
N1120A
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Fri May 08, 2015 11:29 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3, so that it can accomodate the flights currently in T1, to T5.

Am I right in thinking that these were the flights chosen because they are primarily O & D routes? I.e. not many passengers connecting onto them at T5.

MIA and CPT seem weird in that group, as both support connecting traffic. The others seem very O&D heavy.

Quoting GSTBA (Reply 7):
It's a shame the T5 transit train that runs to B and C gates doesn't continue to T3.

I suppose, though it is actually quicker currently to do the walk between A, B and C.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
Can't see BA flying an A380 from Terminal 3 to Miami, a 744 could fly from T3. When BA flies their A380 to a city it implies their best and part of that a t LHR is Terminal 5.

No it doesn't. It implies that they have a lot of traffic to that destination, not "their best." PHX has been a 747 for years, even when that was the largest plane in the fleet, and has always been treated as a leisure destination.
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rtfm
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 11:48 am

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 21):
It just blows my mind that with all the hype leading up
to T5's opening about how BA would, for the first time
in it's history, have all their flight ops in ONE terminal,
they're right back to the old days of split terminal ops.

T5 was never big enough for all of BA's ops, even back when T5 was being built and then opened. There was always a small overspill in T3. As Bongodog1964 states, this was increased by the growth in slots and particularly by the BMI takeover.



Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):
Can't see BA flying an A380 from Terminal 3 to Miami, a 744 could fly from T3. When BA flies their A380 to a city it implies their best and part of that a t LHR is Terminal 5.

They will be. And T3 already has a pier (Pier 6) designed and largely dedicated to A380s.
 
TUGMASTER
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 11:56 am

T3 currently has 6 A380 gates available to use at any given time.
301/303/305/307/340/342
Current T3 operators EK & QF. And soon to be BA to MIA.
And with what ever work they are doing to stands 334 & 336, possibly 2 more.

And as for the T5D idea.... It really wouldn't matter much, as there is no more space to park the aircraft.. All the space on Delta and Echo, is already in use.

[Edited 2015-05-09 05:11:56]
 
jfk777
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
No it doesn't. It implies that they have a lot of traffic to that destination, not "their best." PHX has been a 747 for years, even when that was the largest plane in the fleet, and has always been treated as a leisure destination.

Just because T3 has an A380 concourse doesn't mean its for BA, BA flies many 747 to all kinds of cities but A380;s are for their "flagship" cities and those will be from T5. Hong Kong, Singapore, Johannesburg, Washington, LAX, SFO and Miami are "Flagship" destinations for BA, Phoenix is lucky it gets flown to.
 
fcogafa
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 12:22 pm

Even if the fuel farm was relocated (a major task) , the fire station and BA Engineering moved,

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 27):
And as for the T5D idea.... It really wouldn't matter much, as there is no more space to park the aircraft.. All the space on Delta and Echo, is already in use.

I was thinking that but if they demolished the fire station, BAW engineering and the fuel farm, plus got access to 595 etc where the QFA A380s park they could get a few extra stands out of it. Just a small job!
 
kotoka
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 1:00 pm

ACC is also moving to T3 on the same date along with the other cities listed.
 
Speedbird2155
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 28):
Just because T3 has an A380 concourse doesn't mean its for BA, BA flies many 747 to all kinds of cities but A380;s are for their "flagship" cities and those will be from T5. Hong Kong, Singapore, Johannesburg, Washington, LAX, SFO and Miami are "Flagship" destinations for BA, Phoenix is lucky it gets flown to.

BA doesn't consider any route to be "flagship". A380s will be used where the economics add up and it therefore makes sense to use them. All Miami flights will be from T3, one on a 747 and the other an A380.
 
vv701
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 21):
It just blows my mind that with all the hype leading up
to T5's opening about how BA would, for the first time
in it's history, have all their flight ops in ONE terminal,
they're right back to the old days of split terminal ops.

As has been stated whatever the hype about BA and T5 it certainly did not originate from BA. Perhaps you are thinking about reports that pointed out that BA's LHR operations out of LHR T1, T3 and T4 would be mainly consolidated into T5 with a relatively small overspill into T3?

Back then when T5 was filled by BA following its opening in 2008 while a small number of flights were to remain in T3, BA had 3,950 weekly LHR ATMs (Air Transport Movements). Today a not insignificant seven years later this number has grown by almost exactly a quarter to 4,920 ATMs. Very clearly such strong growth is bound to have a significant impact on the airline's day to day LHR operations.

A significant amount of BA's growth followed the BA 2012 purchase of BD. It is this purchase that has caused the current reshuffle.

BD operated all of its LHR flights out of T1. A significant proportion of these flights were within the Common Travel Area. The CTA comprises the UK and the Republic of Ireland , the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. In the CTA there are minimal immigration controls. BD had CTA flights between LHR T1 and ABZ, BFS, DUB, EDI and MAN and formerly GLA.

Of the five LHR terminals only T1 and T5 were internally configured to handle CTA passengers. There was simply no demand for such a configuration amongst operators located in T2, T3 and T4. So in order to meet the original plan from the mid naughties of centralising BA operations in T5 and T3 the former BD CTA flights can now only be moved from T1 to T5. This required more BA flights to be moved from T5 to T3 to make enough room for the ex-BD flights.

So with everything changing, particularly the size of BA's LHR operations, over the years, LHR needs to constantly adapt. However there never ever was any plan to operate all of BA's flights out of T5.

The original plan was to operate all BA's own flights flown in close conjunction with partner airlines like AY and QF alongside those partner flights out of T3. But that plan also changed several times. For example at one time BA consolidated all of its few remaining 752 flights out of T3 before its last of this type was retired. And, of course, the JBA between BA and QF is now long gone. Each time a fundamental change like these occurs then BA's terminal operations at LHR are likely to be impacted.

The constantly evolution of LHR requires constant adaptation to changing operations. Nothing today is like it was actually or in plans of a decade ago. And in another decade LHR operations will likely show significant changes from those of today.
 
commavia
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 9:29 pm

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 9):
I'm still hoping that they redevelop T3 to become the other end of the toast rack. Build a D concourse, E concourse, and make T3 and F concourse. Connect T3 to T5 via all the concourses and make the concourses common use for both T3 and T5. So, eventually BA check-in is at T5, Oneworld at T3, but connecting would be seamless, as it would all be one terminal in essence.

If only.

Having just transited between BA/T5 and AA/T3 twice in the last week, I can attest that the entire operation is functionally adequate, but certainly suboptimal (to put it nicely) for such a high-profile and high-yielding airport such as LHR. T5 and the new T2 are both nice - certainly as vast improvement from the old T1/T2 and the current T3 - but T5 at least could certainly be far better.

Needless to say, having a seamless, sterile connecting train between T3 and T5 would be an immense improvement, so as to avoid, for example, having multiple 747s and A380s all unloading hundreds of people simultaneously at T5C, only for them to all have to trek to T5A so that many can then board a bus to drive right back past T5C on the way to T3 or other terminals.

And beyond all that, I still find it hysterically comical that the Heathrow gate posting charade continues, where the airport/airlines intentionally withhold departure gate assignments (which are known hours in advance) so as to encourage more people to either (a) sit in the uncomfortable seats in the big departures hall or, more preferably, (b) shop and spend money. It is completely ridiculous.
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sat May 09, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 33):
And beyond all that, I still find it hysterically comical that the Heathrow gate posting charade continues, where the airport/airlines intentionally withhold departure gate assignments (which are known hours in advance) so as to encourage more people to either (a) sit in the uncomfortable seats in the big departures hall or, more preferably, (b) shop and spend money. It is completely ridiculous.

My #1 pet peeve about UK airports. LHR isn't as blatant as airports like EMA where the message "Relax and Shop" is posted on the screens, but it's still terrible. You just feel like your wallet is being targeted. One of the world's greatest airports, with amazing aircraft taxiing everywhere, and you're imprisoned in a dark departure lounge until just before your flight.

I've even had staff at LHR send me BACK to the hellacious T3 departure lounge because my flight wasn't posted yet. "For security purposes" they said, which is a convenient way of shutting down any debate.

[Edited 2015-05-09 15:34:30]
 
Lofty
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 9:56 am

Please keep to the facts, gates are not published in advance to allow flexibility in the stand plan and for aircraft changes. I was a LHR stand planner for 11 years.


Quoting commavia (Reply 33):
And beyond all that, I still find it hysterically comical that the Heathrow gate posting charade continues, where the airport/airlines intentionally withhold departure gate assignments (which are known hours in advance) so as to encourage more people to either (a) sit in the uncomfortable seats in the big departures hall or, more preferably, (b) shop and spend money. It is completely ridiculous.
 
Lofty
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 12:14 pm

T5C has a new transfer bus that operates direct to T3.


Quoting commavia (Reply 33):
Needless to say, having a seamless, sterile connecting train between T3 and T5 would be an immense improvement, so as to avoid, for example, having multiple 747s and A380s all unloading hundreds of people simultaneously at T5C, only for them to all have to trek to T5A so that many can then board a bus to drive right back past T5C on the way to T3 or other terminals.
 
commavia
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 12:14 pm

Quoting Lofty (Reply 35):
Please keep to the facts, gates are not published in advance to allow flexibility in the stand plan and for aircraft changes. I was a LHR stand planner for 11 years.

I'm sorry, but with respect, I don't buy it.

I have no doubt that LHR and airlines want to "allow flexibility" as much as possible, but of course there are busy airports all over the world (many with gates that are used just as, if not more, intensively than any at LHR) where "flexibility" is also required in gate assignments, and yet somehow they manage to post gates more than 45-60 minutes in advance. I'm honestly to believe that when a 747 or A380 pulls into T5B or T5C LHR and BA don't know where that plane is turning around and going to next in 2-3 hours? As I said - sorry, but I'm not buying it.

And that's BA, the only airline for which any semblance of "flexibility" is really critical given the scale of its operation. For most LHR operators - with few daily departures and typically just one plane on the ground at a time - it's often (not always, but quite often) apparent what the outbound gate will be. Just yesterday, I was able to tell - using AA.com and Flightstats - which T3 gate my AA departure would be using literally three hours in advance, so there is absolutely no logical reason why the airport can't tell me then, either. No logical reason, that is, other than that the airport wants me to stay away from the gate area and instead spend money waiting around for them to announce the gate.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
T5C has a new transfer bus that operates direct to T3.

Indeed it is new - so new that I didn't realize it yesterday until I followed all the signs and announcements for "Flight Connections All Terminals" to T5A, along with the masses, only for my T5-T3 connecting bus to stop at T5C to pick up more people. Lesson learned for the next time. Still a suboptimal system, though (as evidenced by the 25 people left standing around at T5C when my already-packed bus pulled away having only fit another 5 people on it.)

[Edited 2015-05-10 05:19:44]
 
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cathay747
Posts: 1236
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:47 pm

RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 32):

As has been stated whatever the hype about BA and T5 it certainly did not originate from BA. Perhaps you are thinking about reports that pointed out that BA's LHR operations out of LHR T1, T3 and T4 would be mainly consolidated into T5 with a relatively small overspill into T3?

Back then when T5 was filled by BA following its opening in 2008 while a small number of flights were to remain in T3, BA had 3,950 weekly LHR ATMs (Air Transport Movements). Today a not insignificant seven years later this number has grown by almost exactly a quarter to 4,920 ATMs. Very clearly such strong growth is bound to have a significant impact on the airline's day to day LHR operations.

A significant amount of BA's growth followed the BA 2012 purchase of BD. It is this purchase that has caused the current reshuffle.

BD operated all of its LHR flights out of T1. A significant proportion of these flights were within the Common Travel Area. The CTA comprises the UK and the Republic of Ireland , the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. In the CTA there are minimal immigration controls. BD had CTA flights between LHR T1 and ABZ, BFS, DUB, EDI and MAN and formerly GLA.

Of the five LHR terminals only T1 and T5 were internally configured to handle CTA passengers. There was simply no demand for such a configuration amongst operators located in T2, T3 and T4. So in order to meet the original plan from the mid naughties of centralising BA operations in T5 and T3 the former BD CTA flights can now only be moved from T1 to T5. This required more BA flights to be moved from T5 to T3 to make enough room for the ex-BD flights.

So with everything changing, particularly the size of BA's LHR operations, over the years, LHR needs to constantly adapt. However there never ever was any plan to operate all of BA's flights out of T5.

The original plan was to operate all BA's own flights flown in close conjunction with partner airlines like AY and QF alongside those partner flights out of T3. But that plan also changed several times. For example at one time BA consolidated all of its few remaining 752 flights out of T3 before its last of this type was retired. And, of course, the JBA between BA and QF is now long gone. Each time a fundamental change like these occurs then BA's terminal operations at LHR are likely to be impacted.

The constantly evolution of LHR requires constant adaptation to changing operations. Nothing today is like it was actually or in plans of a decade ago. And in another decade LHR operations will likely show significant changes from those of today.


This is the best explanation I've ever come across. Thank you.
But what I read about T5 allowing BA to have all ops in one
terminal for the first time in it's history did in fact come from a
PowerPoint presentation BA made in our office. There was
of course the footnote about a few flights still being at T3 due
to code-share ops, i.e. QF.
Try a Little VC-10derness
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 34):
You just feel like your wallet is being targeted

No one is forcing you to buy anything. There's very limited food and beverage service and washrooms closer to the gates, so it makes sense for people to wait in the part where there's shops and restaurants.

Would you rather sit next to the gate with nothing to do for hours?

I actually prefer T3 to T5, as it gives me the choice of three oneworld lounges (CX, AA, BA), none of which are as busy as the T5 club lounges.
 
commavia
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 39):
There's very limited food and beverage service and washrooms closer to the gates, so it makes sense for people to wait in the part where there's shops and restaurants.

I think that's exactly the point I/we am/are making - along with the withholding of departure gates until 45-60 minutes before departure, the terminal was specifically designed with "very limited food and beverage service and washrooms closer to the gates" so as to encourage you to "wait in the part where there's shops and restaurants." And I personally find that quite annoying.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 39):
Would you rather sit next to the gate with nothing to do for hours?

Yes - absolutely. Sometimes, particularly when I'm connecting off of another long flight, the only thing I want to do is sit somewhere quiet and read, watch something on my iPad, or just doze. I don't want to sit on an uncomfortable seat in the middle of a shopping mall with thousands of people streaming by me on the way to Burberry or World of Whiskies, or scrambling to their flight (along with hundreds of other people) when the departure board finally posts their gate.

[Edited 2015-05-10 06:31:19]
 
MonsieurX
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 12:28 am

RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
Yes - absolutely. Sometimes, particularly when I'm connecting off of another long flight, the only thing I want to do is sit somewhere quiet and read, watch something on my iPad, or just doze.

Nearly all of the gates on all concourses at T5 have seating arrangements. If finding a gate area to sit quietly for a few hours is what matters to you, then you can absolutely go and sit at a gate looking out of the window, and just be prepared to move off at the last minute when you have a confirmed gate.

X
 
commavia
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting MonsieurX (Reply 41):
Nearly all of the gates on all concourses at T5 have seating arrangements. If finding a gate area to sit quietly for a few hours is what matters to you, then you can absolutely go and sit at a gate looking out of the window, and just be prepared to move off at the last minute when you have a confirmed gate.

Indeed - that is the case at T5, and - from what I could see from my brief experience - also at the new T2. However, even at T5, you can't really "go to your gate" unless the departure is from T5A. So for virtually anyone departing on a longhaul flight, you have to wait for your departure gate to be posted and "confirmed" before you take the train, lest you run the risk (however slight) that your flight is, actually, leaving from T5A and thus once you go to the T5B/T5C gates, you can't easily get back (a somewhat ridiculous traffic flow design in and of itself).

This is not, however, the case at T3. Many of T3's gates are, indeed, behind glass walls and doors, and are only open when a flight is about to board, and those gates at T3 - like the one I departed from yesterday - that are not behind glass, and are accessible, are in many cases so far at the end of the concourse that there's no point walking there unless you are certain that it is, or is near, your ultimate departure gate.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):

Quoting 8herveg (Thread starter):
Later this year, BA is moving it's flights to CPT, DEN, LAS, MIA, NBO, PHX and YVR from T5 to T3, so that it can accomodate the flights currently in T1, to T5.

Am I right in thinking that these were the flights chosen because they are primarily O & D routes? I.e. not many passengers connecting onto them at T5.

MIA and CPT seem weird in that group, as both support connecting traffic. The others seem very O&D heavy.


I don't think any of those routes look particularly low on the list of connections. LAS, DEN and PHX have less nonstop flights to Europe and long haul in general which leads to a higher percentage of connections. I wonder if connections were really factored in. These sound like routes where BA has less competition so they feel they can fly the routes via the less convenient terminal.

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):

Quoting Lofty (Reply 35):
Please keep to the facts, gates are not published in advance to allow flexibility in the stand plan and for aircraft changes. I was a LHR stand planner for 11 years.

I'm sorry, but with respect, I don't buy it.

I have no doubt that LHR and airlines want to "allow flexibility" as much as possible, but of course there are busy airports all over the world (many with gates that are used just as, if not more, intensively than any at LHR) where "flexibility" is also required in gate assignments, and yet somehow they manage to post gates more than 45-60 minutes in advance. I'm honestly to believe that when a 747 or A380 pulls into T5B or T5C LHR and BA don't know where that plane is turning around and going to next in 2-3 hours? As I said - sorry, but I'm not buying it.


It takes an hour to fuel a 747 or 777 for a 10 hour flight. With paper work requiring a flight plan necessary to fuel a plane, I am confident BA knows which planes are going where with 95% confidence 90-120 minutes before departure.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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jsnww81
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 40):
I think that's exactly the point I/we am/are making - along with the withholding of departure gates until 45-60 minutes before departure, the terminal was specifically designed with "very limited food and beverage service and washrooms closer to the gates" so as to encourage you to "wait in the part where there's shops and restaurants." And I personally find that quite annoying.

Agree. The point is that other airports at least give you the option. You can buy silly crap at Burberry or eat at some inane Heston Blumenthal restaurant OR you can go to a quiet corner of the terminal and have a seat. T5 notwithstanding, LHR was designed without quiet corners. A person who's sitting down reading his iPad isn't putting money in BAA's pocket, and we can't have that.

Years ago, Gatwick actually had a looping recording of a chipper woman saying "I don't know about you, but airports always make me feel so peckish. Perhaps we should purchase something to eat?" She sounded upbeat and perky, but the whole thing had such an Orwellian quality to it, and spoke volumes about the priorities of (then) BAA management.
 
Speedbird2155
Posts: 690
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 6:05 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 42):
Indeed - that is the case at T5, and - from what I could see from my brief experience - also at the new T2. However, even at T5, you can't really "go to your gate" unless the departure is from T5A. So for virtually anyone departing on a longhaul flight, you have to wait for your departure gate to be posted and "confirmed" before you take the train, lest you run the risk (however slight) that your flight is, actually, leaving from T5A and thus once you go to the T5B/T5C gates, you can't easily get back (a somewhat ridiculous traffic flow design in and of itself).

This is not, however, the case at T3. Many of T3's gates are, indeed, behind glass walls and doors, and are only open when a flight is about to board, and those gates at T3 - like the one I departed from yesterday - that are not behind glass, and are accessible, are in many cases so far at the end of the concourse that there's no point walking there unless you are certain that it is, or is near, your ultimate departure gate.

At T5, BA publishes the intended concourse that your flight is expected to depart from between -120 and -90 to ETD. If you are connecting and within -180 of ETD, then you will see the concourse on the FIDS on the arrivals level in T5B and C. The final gate number is then published at -75.

As for getting back to T5A, it is quite simple and many people do it on a daily basis via the dedicated walkway.

As for T3, you are referring to a terminal that is several decades old and was built to meet the standards of that time. Gate lounges were the in thing at that time and until recently, all of the gates in T3 were built to that standard. Heathrow has only in past couple years renovated some of the gates into open gates. There were a number of reasons for this, but the other gates aren't as easy to change. If you look at gates 1/3/5/7 which were the first A380 gates in Heathrow, these were designed with gate lounges in keeping with the rest of T3. In T4, the A380 gates were designed in keeping with the open gate layout of T4. In T2, the original T2B gates were all gate lounges, but were changed to open gates later on, so as to keep with the design of T2A.
 
commavia
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RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 6:21 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 43):
With paper work requiring a flight plan necessary to fuel a plane, I am confident BA knows which planes are going where with 95% confidence 90-120 minutes before departure.

Precisely.

There is no way that BA doesn't know where that 747 or A380 is going until 45-60 minutes before departure when they confirm and post the gate. Of course they know well in advance of that - for exactly the operational and practical reasons you mention. It's remarkable to me how BA allegedly needs so much "operational flexibility" with its gating at LHR whereas in, say, the U.S., carriers typically and routinely post departing gates for flights out of their hubs - far, far busier than, and often just as gate-constrained as, LHR - literally 12-24 hours in advance. Sure, gate changes are far easier at U.S. airports because of their inherent design, but even still, there is really no plausible operational excuse for waiting so long to post departure gates.

Again - either BA is exceedingly bad at gate scheduling or, more likely, they and/or the airport simply want people to spend money at shops and restaurants.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 44):
The point is that other airports at least give you the option. You can buy silly crap at Burberry or eat at some inane Heston Blumenthal restaurant OR you can go to a quiet corner of the terminal and have a seat. T5 notwithstanding, LHR was designed without quiet corners. A person who's sitting down reading his iPad isn't putting money in BAA's pocket, and we can't have that.

  

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 45):
At T5, BA publishes the intended concourse that your flight is expected to depart from between -120 and -90 to ETD. If you are connecting and within -180 of ETD, then you will see the concourse on the FIDS on the arrivals level in T5B and C. The final gate number is then published at -75.

"Go to B Gates" or "Go to C Gates" is often posted, but not always. I was departing on a BA longhaul flight literally days ago - ultimately out of T5C - and no such note was posted until the gate itself. I, however, asked the service desk which told me the assigned gate. And either way, it still misses the broader point which is that there is absolutely no reason not to tell people the actual gate.

Quoting Speedbird2155 (Reply 45):
As for getting back to T5A, it is quite simple and many people do it on a daily basis via the dedicated walkway.

And yet the BA staff at T5 will regularly say - as I've been told countless times - "I'd hold off on going over to B or C until you know your gate for sure, as you can't take the train back." Just a long walk, but no train. Again - it's just more needless complication, once again highlighting how T5 at LHR is certainly a vast improvement over most of LHR's pre-T5 terminals, but still in many ways a work of suboptimal compromises that falls short in multiple practical ways from a customer convenience/comfort standpoint. (And I say this, I feel compelled to say, as an Anglophile who absolutely loves Britain and loves the British.)
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 24):

Nope, I am afraid a handful of A380s will be moving across, along with the coalburners.
Four (4) stands will be dedicated, the rest will be shared, even on the stands that VS currently use.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 47):
Four (4) stands will be dedicated

Do you yet know which stands will be dedicated for BA? I believe any A380 departures would have to use gates 1/3/5/7 (the only A380-capable gates at T3, I think), but I wonder if other BA T3 operations will be on the 13-22 wing or the 23-42 wing?
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 355
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: Question About BA's Long-haul Flights Moving To T3

Sun May 10, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 48):

Some other stands around the top end of t3 already in process of becoming 380 capable, 336 comes to mind and 340.
The designated stands, I am not sure but it is definataley 3 or 4 and they are supposed to be " marked" out for 320,s only, possibly around the top end again, as Engineering, dispatch will move into the old Air Canada offices which are currently being renovated.
321 to 316 ( old kilo stands) will also be used when no space available.

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