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HPRamper
Posts: 5144
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:29 pm

Quoting MMO (Reply 45):
But, I do think WN would be a good contender to get the company. First of all, it reduces competition, sews up the gate space at the Humphrey Terminal and I am sure WN could negotiate a very favorable lease rate or even purchase the aircraft outright. I don't see AS doing anything since MSP really does not fit their route structure.

I'd like to know how you think MSP fits in the WN network but not the AS network.

AS would obviously start routes to all its hubs and focus cities - SEA, PDX, LAX, SAN, SLC, maybe SFO or SJC - and then there are plenty of stations within range of MSP where AS already has a presence. LAS, PHX, the Texas markets, ORD, OMA etc.
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3177
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:39 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 49):

Yes those poor pilots are having to live on starvation wages aren't they?

If you aren't starving then DO NOT COMPLAIN.*

* - does not apply if you are C-suite level and above, for you trying to exploit as many workers for profits as possible is just being a true American
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2329
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:40 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 50):
AS would obviously start routes to all its hubs and focus cities - SEA, PDX, LAX, SAN, SLC, maybe SFO or SJC - and then there are plenty of stations within range of MSP where AS already has a presence. LAS, PHX, the Texas markets, ORD, OMA etc.

AS already is doing very well in carrying people to Hawaii from the Midwest thru SEA. Adding PDX, OAK, SJC and SAN out of MSP would only increase those connection opportunities with a little tinkering of the schedule. Even LAX might work, offering connections to Mexico and soon Costa Rica.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11417
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 50):
I'd like to know how you think MSP fits in the WN network but not the AS network.

I don't know if it would fit in WN's network better necessarily, but WN has a far stronger brand that would make it easier for them to stand up against the inevitable DL response.

I think some people here underestimate just how unknown AS is to most of the general public as you move east away from the west coast. They wouldn't benefit from SY's low costs or hometown reputation.

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 52):
AS already is doing very well in carrying people to Hawaii from the Midwest thru SEA. Adding PDX, OAK, SJC and SAN out of MSP would only increase those connection opportunities with a little tinkering of the schedule.

That would require people to double connect (unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying) which starts to limit AS's competitive advantage against UA/DL/AA and others chasing that traffic.
 
mmo
Topic Author
Posts: 2059
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Sat May 16, 2015 7:48 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 49):
Yes those poor pilots are having to live on starvation wages aren't they?

I have kept quiet about your remark. However, after getting some PMs from other pilots on this forum I thought I would voice my opinion since the Mods don't find this offensive.

I do find your remark offensive. I have been a pilot (military/commercial) my entire life. I have worked very hard to get where I am today and I resent your comment.

Your comment shows just how misinformed you are about aviation. First of all, the rate quoted is the top rate for a Captain. EVERY OTHER PILOT makes less than that. IIRC, the SY longevity tops out at 12 or 15 years. And if you knew anything at all about how pay is computed you would have not made the statement you did.

I don't know what your profession is, but I am sure if someone slagged off about your profession and what you get paid you would be somewhat irate.

Finally, your post adds nothing to the thread. If you think it does, I'd be more than happy to hear what it has added.

Apologies for hijacking the thread but after several emails from the Mods about deletion and why they will not, I had to say my thoughts.

[Edited 2015-05-16 01:24:16]
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BoeingBear
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:30 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Sat May 16, 2015 10:25 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 50):
I'd like to know how you think MSP fits in the WN network but not the AS network.

I don't think it's a matter of network fit -- it's about critical mass. WN already has 10 destinations from MSP and well-known national brand with consumers (not just A.nutters). AS has one destination from MSP and a brand not well recognized outside of the West Coast and Alaska. As a result, I believe WN would have a much better chance than AS to build out a profitable base in MSP using SY's assets. (That's not a slam on AS; I've flown it many times, and I respect its management from both a customer and an industry/investor perspective. Its financial performance is nearly impossible to criticize.)

Quoting LCCflyer (Reply 43):
Perhaps there are more factors at work here other than the easy headline $137ph pay rate? Since it is privately held we may never know what SY's cost base looks like.

We know the airline is barely breaking even. The article in the OP has a link to the DOT data:
http://www.transtats.bts.gov/carrier...20Airlines%20d/b/a%20Mn%20Airlines

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 42):
If the median rate for a job is $188, how can giving more than $137 break the bank. Are SY's non wage costs that high.

No, but its revenue per seat-mile is 20% below any of the majors (also in the DOT data). That's even harder to fix than costs. Several people have been commenting on SY's casino charters, but I've done financial analysis for two airlines that ran those, and I can tell you that full charters don't mean a thing. The casino pays the airline a flat fee per departure, the same way most regionals are paid by mainline carriers -- and the profit margin is razor-thin. It's basically utilization flying to help the airline spread its fixed costs (maintenance, etc) over more flight hours.

I'm not arguing that SY pilot pay is fair or unfair -- other people can judge that for themselves. What I see is that the airline's would have lost money the last two years if anyone's pay had been raised (management included). If SY management is holding the line on pilot wages, it's probably because they think the operation is unsustainable with higher costs. The financial evidence certainly bears out that view.
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 2329
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:48 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Sun May 17, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting polot (Reply 53):
That would require people to double connect (unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying) which starts to limit AS's competitive advantage against UA/DL/AA and others chasing that traffic.

Not sure how you turned that into two stops....one leg MSP to the west coast and then on to Hawaii, Mexico, Costa Rica. Easy peezy.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 10410
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Sun May 17, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 55):
We know the airline is barely breaking even.

We don't know that. As evidenced by NK's dramatic restatement of their past years' financial results when they IPO'd, the DOT cost filings are pretty meaningless for a private company. I made the same point way above.

Quoting LCCflyer (Reply 43):

Perhaps there are more factors at work here other than the easy headline $137ph pay rate?

...and they do pay much better than airlines like Endeavor.

[Edited 2015-05-16 18:53:50]
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15808
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 46):
AS don't see it happening

Don't be so sure...
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4027
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 12:24 pm

http://www.twincities.com/business/c...ot-pay-dispute-delays-msp-terminal

MSP has decided to delay expanding Terminal 2 - Humphrey until SY sorts out its labour situation. That is not a good sign as the airport is probably privy to more info than the public is...
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5144
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting MSP" class="quote" target="_blank">USFlyer MSP (Reply 59):
MSP has decided to delay expanding Terminal 2 - Humphrey until SY sorts out its labour situation. That is not a good sign as the airport is probably privy to more info than the public is...

The Humphrey terminal was deserted most of the day last I checked. Enough so that the airport directs passengers flying out of the Lindy terminal to park in the Humphrey lots and take the tram over because the parking garages at Humphrey are always empty. Do they really need to expand it?
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 4027
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 60):
The Humphrey terminal was deserted most of the day last I checked. Enough so that the airport directs passengers flying out of the Lindy terminal to park in the Humphrey lots and take the tram over because the parking garages at Humphrey are always empty. Do they really need to expand it?

Actually, T2 is full now. Even the parking. That is why Spirit had to move to T1.
 
premobrimo
Posts: 285
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:36 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 60):

Sorry...you have no idea what you're talking about. Do some basic google searches before posting.
Now You're Flying Smart.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5144
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 2:55 pm

Quoting premobrimo (Reply 62):
Sorry...you have no idea what you're talking about. Do some basic google searches before posting.

Excuse me? I lived there for a long time. Worked at the airport. Saw it every day. If it's changed in the few years it's been since I was there, then fine. Change your attitude.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3482
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 57):
..and they do pay much better than airlines like Endeavor.

They (Sun Country) fly mainline equipment and own their own flying. Endeavor flies CRJ's and doesn't own a single bit of their flying. To suggest that Sun Country is paying more than enough by simply paying more than a regional is a joke. The pilots are really screwed there for pay. Plus couple that with the fact that there is a 3 year training contract a new pilot has to sign to work there, and it's a terrible place to work. But if you're anti-labor, I could see ignoring that fact for every cent of profit.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
s4popo
Posts: 176
Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:36 am

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 6:35 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 64):
s4popo

As a pilot applying for a position with SY, would you not know this ahead of time?

This whole thing reminds of people that buy a house next to an airport, and then complain about the noise.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3482
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 6:46 pm

Quoting s4popo (Reply 65):
As a pilot applying for a position with SY, would you not know this ahead of time?

Sure, new hires would know that. But those who have been there and have seen no progression in their pay can't be blamed for asking for more money. The common theme here is, airlines that require training contract for flight crew are generally crappy places to work.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
mmo
Topic Author
Posts: 2059
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:04 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 6:50 pm

Quoting s4popo (Reply 65):
As a pilot applying for a position with SY, would you not know this ahead of time?

You do realize the rate quoted is not the rate all pilots receive? The rate is for a Captain at the top end of the pay scale. I checked your profile, as suspected you are not a pilot. Being a pilot is not working in finance where you go in to an entry level position and work your way up. If you hit the pay ceiling, you can look elsewhere since you will have the experience. As a pilot, you really can't do that. Unless you want to go to the bottom of the seniority list and start all over again. Pilots don't have the ability to jump ship unless they want to give up all their seniority at their current carrier.

In addition, when you get hired the company normally tends to paint the best possible picture it can about long term growth, upgrade, expansion and anything to entice the pilot to jump aboard. I can tell you first hand, pilots don't mind pitching in when the company needs it, but when the company is making profits on the back's of it's employees, that is when pilots will dig their heels in.

Finally, I am assuming, and it might be a big assumption, you do realize pilots don't get a "normal" 40 hour week and thus get a "normal" paycheck. My guess is the cap for SY pilots is about 80 hours/month. So, current first year FO pay is $31/hour. You do the math and keep in mind every month will not be an 80 hour month.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
BoeingBear
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:30 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:21 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 57):
As evidenced by NK's dramatic restatement of their past years' financial results when they IPO'd, the DOT cost filings are pretty meaningless for a private company. I made the same point way above.

I looked thru all your posts in this thread and didn't see it. Could you help me find it? Don't shoot -- I'm asking nicely.   

Even more importantly, why would NK or any carrier filing misleading financials with DOT/BTS? Is there no enforcement mechanism to ensure that filing are accurate?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 11417
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Sun Country For Sale?

Tue May 19, 2015 8:34 pm

Quoting BoeingBear (Reply 68):
Even more importantly, why would NK or any carrier filing misleading financials with DOT/BTS? Is there no enforcement mechanism to ensure that filing are accurate?

As I mentioned before, all the DOT cares about is that the airline/parent company is healthy enough to continue safe operations. They don't hold the carrier's financial filings to the same standard as the SEC.

It is actually in smaller private airline's benefit to appear minimally profitable. You don't want to appear consistently unprofitable because:

A) The DOT may start getting concerned about your ability to continue operating.
B) It can lead to bad press, which can cause people to book away out of concern that the airline will shut down exacerbating the issue.
C) These filings are public and of course all the airlines read them, so you don't want them smelling blood in the water and going in for the kill.

Conversely you don't want to appear widely profitable because these filings are public and of course all the airlines read them, so you don't want them deciding they want a greater piece of the pie and competing more.

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