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afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:02 pm

Quoting B727FA (Reply 99):

Bottom line is a 4 year must sit accompanied. Period. Anything else is negligence, shameful, and probably illegal (child abandonment, child abuse). Suppose the seat map is full when the parent books? It happens all the time. Now say Y+ or a preferred seat is available for sale at the airport and the parent truly does not have $88 times two on their credit card. The airline says too bad. Who is negligent, the parent or the airline. If anything happened to that child, I guarantee you Delta Airlines would be held responsible and it would cost them dearly.
 
lpdal
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:08 pm

I didn't now airlines allow kids to fly free, that's news. Apparently the seat that the four year old was plopped in was given complimentary at checkout.

And what a great dad to be teaching the mindset of "If you don't agree with the rule, you're free to break it, junior! Bonus points if nobody catches you!"

Heck, I need a four year old. Apparently having one in your party, according to people above, entitles you to all sorts of complimentary products and services provided by Delta Air Lines, and if Delta refuses, it's off to the local news station I go.

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-05-14 15:13:46]
TWU represented. All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 100):
Bottom line is a 4 year must sit accompanied. Period. Anything else is negligence, shameful, and probably illegal (child abandonment, child abuse). Suppose the seat map is full when the parent books? It happens all the time. Now say Y+ or a preferred seat is available for sale at the airport and the parent truly does not have $88 times two on their credit card. The airline says too bad. Who is negligent, the parent or the airline. If anything happened to that child, I guarantee you Delta Airlines would be held responsible and it would cost them dearly.



This comes up more than you believe. I use to work in policies and procedures for ACS before I left Delta and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the policy states that we will make all possible effords to seat children of qualifying age with their parents HOWEVER, if it really came down to it, we are at the mercey of the passengers moving. 99.9999999999999% of the time it is not a problem. Several things will happen. Everything from the gate agent simply moving another pax to the flight attendant requesting (sometimes telling if they are seasoned) someone move to the parent themselves asking a pax. The thing is, it's usually for a "like" seat (windown for window middle for middle, etc.). Only seating accomodations that are mandated are for disabled customers.
What gets measured gets done.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:53 pm

The government will step in here and require children under a certain age to be seated with a parent. EK and others will announce that they will do it without government.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:56 pm

Back in the day the whole purpose of an airline reserving 20% of seats for airport checkin only is to handle situations such as this. The agent here dropped the ball, probably because of unclear training, because while 20% of seats are no longer reserved for airport checkin I imagine since seat assignments are up for sale, in this case there were seats available for the agent to assign, but they wanted to sell them instead. Economy Comfort is not a separate cabin and inventory like First Class. It shares inventory with regular Economy (you can't even find how much it costs until after you enter your reservation details) Therefore almost every flight has cases where Economy people are seated in Economy Comfort and are not charged and probably not even notified especially if they checkin at a kiosk. The irony is had this flight been more full, this would have been less likely to happen because the computer would have already started randomly assigning Economy Comfort at the airport for free.
 
Mortyman
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 71):
There is nothing in the article to suggest that sitting next to the child was of any priority, as he refused to pay the fee if he wanted to sit next to the four year old. If he really cared about it to that degree, he would have bit the bullet and paid the Y upgrade fee, which couldn't have been over $100

One thing is to charge for seat asignments for adults, but it's a totally different matter when it's a young child. Parents With young children should not be expected to pay for their child to be able to sit NeXT to them. Parents with small children should have first priority. If that means that the airline has to tell a passenger to move to a different seat, then that is what it means. Besides it's not like 100 USD is a small amount of money ...


If Airlines can demand that passengers change seats because young Girls traveling alone should not seat With older single men because of fear of sexual assault ( some Airlines do ), then they should also be able to demand that passsengers change seats for parents and their child.
 
frmrCapCadet
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 11:02 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 105):
If Airlines can demand that passengers change seats because young Girls traveling alone should not seat With older single men because of fear of sexual assault ( some Airlines do ), then they should also be able to demand that passsengers change seats for parents and their child.

And do you suppose offering parents and children what once was considered a standard service might be a 'family value' sort of thing?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
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mayor
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 11:07 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 104):
Back in the day the whole purpose of an airline reserving 20% of seats for airport checkin only is to handle situations such as this. The agent here dropped the ball, probably because of unclear training, because while 20% of seats are no longer reserved for airport checkin I imagine since seat assignments are up for sale, in this case there were seats available for the agent to assign, but they wanted to sell them instead. Economy Comfort is not a separate cabin and inventory like First Class. It shares inventory with regular Economy (you can't even find how much it costs until after you enter your reservation details) Therefore almost every flight has cases where Economy people are seated in Economy Comfort and are not charged and probably not even notified especially if they checkin at a kiosk. The irony is had this flight been more full, this would have been less likely to happen because the computer would have already started randomly assigning Economy Comfort at the airport for free.

Look at the airline's seat map. What do you see? I see that Economy Comfort seats are quite clearly displayed as separate from the normal economy seats.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
gcb5196
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Thu May 14, 2015 11:27 pm

In my short experience as a CS agent, we made every attempt to seat children together with their adult travellers. Blocked seats, moving a positive space employee or asking someone to switch. Most people were gracious enough to switch. It was never really an issue. And as others have explained so well, it is really something to take care of at the gate within a timely manner. On the flip side, even flying under my travel priveledges, it really hasn't been an issue. Side note, I understand as a norev I don't have a say nor do I expect to have a say in my seating and I am fine with that out of respect to the customers paying to be there. I don't know if we have just been lucky but I don't recall ever being separated on a flight from my daughter when she was younger. I have noticed as of late though and maybe it is because she is old enough to be a UM that we have been seated separately more often. So far just a row apart, one in front of the other, no big deal. My daughter wasn't thrilled the first time, came to tears, I calmed her down and we managed. Everytime so far a kind passenger on the plane without us asking (which is forbidden) has traded with my daughter. I think she looks at them and quivers a lip or something I don't know, I just know they are not moving for me. I always thank the passenger and tell them that they don't have to move, but most insist. On that first trip my daughter drew a picture for the kind woman who gave up her aisle seat for my daughters middle seat, thanking her for letting her sit next to her daddy. The woman was very surprised and said she was going to hang the picture on her fridge. I guess I could go on and rant about how we just need more common decency, but instead I will just say thank you to those who have treated us so kindly in the past and pay it forword.
 
us330
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 101):
I didn't now airlines allow kids to fly free, that's news. Apparently the seat that the four year old was plopped in was given complimentary at checkout.

The kid didn't fly for free. He had a paid economy ticket. The guy paid for him and his kid to fly together. He didn't just show up at the airport with one ticket and then demand that the airline accommodate his 4 year old as well for free. I don't understand what led you to that confusion--the guy from the beginning says he purchased two economy tickets, one for him and one for his kid. He merely wanted to be sat next to his kid in his purchased class of service.

Save your moral grandstanding (ie):

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 101):
And what a great dad to be teaching the mindset of "If you don't agree with the rule, you're free to break it, junior! Bonus points if nobody catches you!"

for another thread.

And given this information:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 102):
I use to work in policies and procedures for ACS before I left Delta and I can tell you with 100% certainty that the policy states that we will make all possible effords to seat children of qualifying age with their parents

Delta does indeed make exceptions to its corporate policy for these types of occurrences.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 1:25 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 107):
Look at the airline's seat map. What do you see? I see that Economy Comfort seats are quite clearly displayed as separate from the normal economy seats.



At the gate, EC is treated like any other seat if you're within the one hour window. Which is why the guy was told it couldn be handled at the gate. At the end of the day, the check-in agent really did not do anything wrong. I explained the technical aspect of it already there really is not way to assign the seat out front without taking control of the flight or just for that or....charging him.

Quoting gcb5196 (Reply 108):
Quoting us330 (Reply 109):
Delta does indeed make exceptions to its corporate policy for these types of occurrences.



There are always exceptions to the rule. The great thing with Delta is they do try to empower their agents to make common sense decisions. In this case, like i said above, I really don'tthink the check-in agent did anything wrong and i'm absolutely certain the gate agent would have been able to help him out. They will never admit it, but with the right sine, you can do pretty much whatever you want. There is not hidden code that will block you (of course you have to have the right credentials like a PL/MGR. When all else fails, call the equivalent of RES but for agents. They will cite rules to you all the time but if a Performance Leader or manager tells them to do something they will do it and simply document the record.

Just a side by then i'm done. It's a well known fact within the ACS circle that a first class seat should NEVER be used as a service recovery tool; however it happens. I've done it on a few select occasions and other s have done it too. Point being, we do have a heart and the thought that this guy (or the agent by way of heloing him) was breaking some rule is beyond stupid.
What gets measured gets done.
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 110):
At the gate, EC is treated like any other seat if you're within the one hour window. Which is why the guy was told it couldn be handled at the gate. At the end of the day, the check-in agent really did not do anything wrong. I explained the technical aspect of it already there really is not way to assign the seat out front without taking control of the flight or just for that or....charging him.

Then I take back what I said about the gate agent not handling properly. I thought airport staff had more control within more than one hour before departure, didn't it use to be more like 2-4 hours before? For some reason I thought it was almost anytime on day of departure, but only at the airport. IMO, Delta should reprogram so the airport can take control of the situation sooner than an hour out because with them encouraging earlier airport check in times with ever increasing TSA lines, it would minimize this problem. Back in the date weren't OSI messages put in reservations with families travelling with small children? Probably harder now with online booking unless they programmed DOB, but if it was there and airport had control day of departure, someone should be able to run a report and identify families and pre-assign seats together before they arrive at the airport. Also, just curious. since people can checkin 24 hours before online, does that open up 100% of the seat map still showing EC seats for sale, or are some seats still reserved only for airport check in only? Or has it gotten to the point that 100% of seats are displayed throughout the booking window, since the goal is to sell as many EC upgrades as possible?
 
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WROORD
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 2:19 am

Quoting eastalt (Reply 48):
I do not believe this story. THIS is a lie pure and simple. The Flight Crew would have fixed it before the door closed. Everyone, please stop and think. I have been flying for a long time and I have never seen this happen. There is no reason for more regulation. It sounds to me he was accountable for what happen.

That is not necessarily true. I was on a flight with my two girls (3 and 7 at a time) and we were all seated in different rows. I asked at check in and was told to talk to gate agent. gate agent said he could not move anyone. Crew did not care, I traded seats with a young fellow to sit next to my 3 year old (I guess he preferred changing seats than entertaining a kid), but the other one was 7 rows ahead of us. The funny thing is that when I booked the flight I picked seats for all of us in the same row. No apology from anyone.
 
billreid
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 82):
I don't understand.......your remarks don't fit with your signature.

Some years back my six year old daughter (she's 26 now) was separated from us due to a full airplane and a rescheduled connection. It was still during the days when people could smoke in several rows on board. We were flying on Swissair from ZRH to AMS. My daughter was two rows away in the smoking section, an absolute idiot intentionally burned my child with a cigarette on her hand.

It wasn't too bad. Just a light mark that disappeared in two days. To this day I regret not decking the guy with a full knockout punch regardless of consequence. We did get someone to swap seats, we put some cream on her hand and all was somewhat OK. We informed the flight attendant and as she didn't see what happened she did nothing, but the guy did not deny doing this.

Separating children from their parents on board an aircraft is an absolute no-no, from my perspective knowing what can occur onboard makes this imperative. Based on the risks if DL had empty seats as stated, then the airline should be grounded and its operating permit should be pulled for six months. They are placing revenue opportunity as a higher priority than safety of children. Give me a fracking break!!!!!!!!
And if safety of children in lieu of revenues is not important, then are they cutting other corners? Training? Maintenance? Bad weather flying?
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 112):
I was on a flight with my two girls (3 and 7 at a time) and we were all seated in different rows. I asked at check in and was told to talk to gate agent. gate agent said he could not move anyone. Crew did not care, I traded seats with a young fellow to sit next to my 3 year old (I guess he preferred changing seats than entertaining a kid), but the other one was 7 rows ahead of us

It really disturbs me a seven year would have to sit with total strangers, stuff like that can have really negative psychological effects on some children, and while I respect everyone has a right to their opinion, it really disturbs me the number of people who now consider a parent sitting next to their young child a luxury subject to an additional fee and should be reserved for only those who can afford it, and I believe strongly in free market enterprise. This is a definite sign of the times and not a good one. Call me naive but I bet not one child ever sat apart from their parents in the 1970s regardless of load factors. In many ways though this is an unintended (hopefully) consequence of taking nickel and diming to the point of charging for advance seat selection. I actually think this recent move by Delta (as far as the new Economy Basic fare which does not allow advance seat selection, not the offering of Economy Comfort/Comfort Plus seats for a fee) was a bad PR move. It wreaks of Spirit and Easyjet, and Delta usually offers better service IMO than their competitors, not inferior. Perhaps they are waiting for American and United to follow suit.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 3:07 am

^ It's a little overstated. While I agree they weren't exactly great, they offered guaranteed Y+ at checkin or *probably* seats together in Y at the gate. It's not really a big deal, and with a daughter that age I certainly wouldn't have paid out of principle, just figuring on the kindness of strangers on the plane, especially if it was emptyish.

I do think, though, that they should be given a more concrete assurance that every effort would be made. Not a shrug and "you could buy Y+"

[Edited 2015-05-14 20:08:00]
 
thaiflyer
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 3:36 am

We have easy talking here as most of us are frequent fliers and know the rules. (sometimes even better then the airline staff) but not everybody fly's a lot and/or don't know the rules.
I can understand that people expect to be seated together if they fly with a small child.
Specially if the don't fly often or never with a certain airline.
I don't think that anybody reads all the fine prints of the term and conditions before they make a booking.
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 113):
My daughter was two rows away in the smoking section, an absolute idiot intentionally burned my child with a cigarette on her hand.

That is terrible and while could have happened even had you been in that smoking row with her, would have been a lot less likely. Can you imagine a flight during a severe decompression, not every panicked stranger may make getting your child's mask on ASAP as high a priority as you would. Or during an accident? It is quite possible someone may not take the extra seconds to risk their life and help get your small child out. While these things are unlikely it just further illustrates why for safety reasons airline policy should state no small child is allowed to sit away from their parent or guardian.

It should never get to the FA to have to resolve but if it does, all they have to do is make a polite announcement and offer some incentive, "Ladies and gentleman as you can see we have a full load today but we have a small child who needs to sit next to their parent, please ring your f/a call button if you would volutenteer to exchange seats. Did we mention drinks will be on the house for you?" Can you imagine how many people would race for that button? Problem solved.
 
Mir
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 96):
It's not like the customer was trying to pull a fast one. The airline could have moved a customer up into the kids seat and put the kid back with the dad.

And the gate agent could have easily done that. But not the check-in staff.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
billreid
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 5:44 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 118):
And the gate agent could have easily done that. But not the check-in staff.

-Mir

Truly the words of a person who doesn't understand the responsibility of taking care of ones children.
DL is negligent in policy by allowing boarding passes separating parents and Children. This is simply a company that hasn't considered that they might place children in potential danger.

Do you know if that person sitting there is stable? A molester? A rapist? A murderer? An idiot?

Read my comment in #113 and perhaps you'll understand the position of making the right decision.
No parent would suggest putting a child with people they do not know. As a parent it is your highest responsibility to ensure the safety of your children. Issuing boarding passes separating children from their parents is perverse.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 114):
It really disturbs me a seven year would have to sit with total strangers, stuff like that can have really negative psychological effects on some children, and while I respect everyone has a right to their opinion, it really disturbs me the number of people who now consider a parent sitting next to their young child a luxury subject to an additional fee and should be reserved for only those who can afford it, and I believe strongly in free market enterprise. This is a definite sign of the times and not a good one. Call me naive but I bet not one child ever sat apart from their parents in the 1970s regardless of load factors. In many ways though this is an unintended (hopefully) consequence of taking nickel and diming to the point of charging for advance seat selection. I actually think this recent move by Delta (as far as the new Economy Basic fare which does not allow advance seat selection, not the offering of Economy Comfort/Comfort Plus seats for a fee) was a bad PR move. It wreaks of Spirit and Easyjet, and Delta usually offers better service IMO than their competitors, not inferior. Perhaps they are waiting for American and United to follow suit.

You are correct. I would think you have children. It is those with children that emphasize. Those without may not get it. They need to place themselves in the mindset of a parent and consider a parents responsibilities.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 117):
That is terrible and while could have happened even had you been in that smoking row with her, would have been a lot less likely. Can you imagine a flight during a severe decompression, not every panicked stranger may make getting your child's mask on ASAP as high a priority as you would. Or during an accident? It is quite possible someone may not take the extra seconds to risk their life and help get your small child out. While these things are unlikely it just further illustrates why for safety reasons airline policy should state no small child is allowed to sit away from their parent or guardian.

Thank you. You are also a good person who sees the dangers of separating children from parents.

There are certain lines companies should never cross and this is one of them.

The definition of "Evil" is failing to have empathy for those you face and deal with. Issuing boarding passes separating young children from their parents is clearly "Evil."
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 7:54 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 105):

It's also sketchy of DL that the child was assigned the seat while the adult would have to pay. If it were reversed, and the airline demanded the 4 year old child pay to sit next to her father, the curmudgeons in this thread wouldn't be able to justify it. But DL arranged it so that the child had the empty extra price seat next to her and the father was jammed in the back.

Pretty sneaky.

The reservation system should AUTOMATICALLY fix this. Once a child under 13 is booked on a reservation with an adult, that child should be "attached" to the adult and seats only assigned together. Further, while the customer may not have the right to choose their seat based on preference, they should be ASSIGNED seats automagically. In other words, you can pay to move, but you shouldn't have to pay to get two seats together. The assigned seats might be near the bathroom or the middle of a 2-4-2 A330 in the last row with limited recline, but they should be together.

All flights have blocked seats. ALL. It can be done, it can be accommodated, and airlines are simply choosing not to do so. Any excuse to the contrary is just that, an excuse. It's not based on being overbooked or anything like that. That's why, as a semi-regulated industry, the government will have to get involved. You'd think that airline management would be smart enough by now to know what they can get away with and what might cross a line and cause an uproar.

Charging customers extra money to sit next to their pre-school aged child is a line no competent management team would ever try to cross. Ever. While the gate agent CAN fix it, they are not required to, and the corporate culture is one that prevents anyone from fixing it until the last minute (because $19 or more might be lost, after all), so Delta CREATED this problem, not the passenger.

I understand that the days of calling up and being nice to get an exit row are long gone, but jumping through hoops to keep your 4 year old daughter from sitting next to strange men? That should not be a required part of travel.

Quoting billreid (Reply 119):
There are certain lines companies should never cross and this is one of them.

No doubt. And this is also the only industry I could imagine would cross it!
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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mayor
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 8:45 pm

Seems like a few of you DL bashers on here (you know who you are....it's a permanent thing with you) are once again, using a post to bash DL, with no real evidence, one way or another to know what happened. Were you there? Did you witness this happening? Unfortunately, we're only getting the father's side of the story, which I hope, for his sake, is truthful.

Or was it just the gate agents mistake? I thought I read that the father paid for the upgraded seat when he checked in, instead of waiting til he got to the gate, just in case the seat was gone when he got to the gate. Nothing wrong with that, so what is the actual problem? When he called in for a booking, he wasn't given assigned seats......ok......he gets last minute tickets so, what does he expect might happen if the flight was full? Is he complaining that he was separated from his daughter OR is he really complaining that he had to pay for an upgrade, which most others have to do, also?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 121):
I thought I read that the father paid for the upgraded seat when he checked in, instead of waiting til he got to the gate, just in case the seat was gone when he got to the gate. Nothing wrong with that, so what is the actual problem?

That's correct. The problem is the only way he was assured he would get to sit with his daughter is to purchase a seat upgrade and he was encouraged to do so. The problem is Delta should not prevent airport staff from trying to remedy the situation (without soliciting a paid upgrade) more than an hour before flight when passenger are encouraged to get to the airport early. This problem of the airport not being able to access the entire Y cabin without collecting additional funds this close in appears to be a Delta only thing and it may be somewhat recent, however airport staff at other airlines might be able to provide insight. The potential for parents not to sit with their kids exists at all airlines though and a better solution would be for all airlines that pre-assign seats to automatically assign seats together at time of booking when there is a DOB after a certain date, even if it means accessing the blocked and/or Y+ seats.

Quoting mayor (Reply 121):
Is he complaining that he was separated from his daughter OR is he really complaining that he had to pay for an upgrade, which most others have to do, also?

He is complaining he had to purchase an upgrade or risk not sitting with his daughter. Most people who purchase Economy Comfort upgrades are doing so for the extra room, not so they can avoid traumatizing a four year old. Big difference. HUGE.

[Edited 2015-05-15 15:05:59]
 
afcjets
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Fri May 15, 2015 10:22 pm

I actually don't have a problem with Delta even charging for parents to sit with their kids, if that is what they want, but only if they disclose when fares are displayed, not after the booking process is complete and now being solicited as an addon. For example, number of passengers should have a drop down box for number of adults, then number of children age 2-11. It should search seat maps before displaying fares and if seats together are only available in Y+ and Delta doesn't want to give it away for free, then the regular Y fare without the upgrade charge should not be displayed at all for the flight and it should display the fare for the flight at Y+ (perhaps in a separate column to designate it is a better seat too.) That would be more difficult to program but that way Delta could both nickel and dime and strictly enforce kids must sit with parents no exceptions. They would either make more $ by their nickel and diming or they may lose market share from families by often having higher fare displays for them on flights with tight seat maps. If other airlines followed Delta's lead there should be no loss of market share and just another win for the airlines.

[Edited 2015-05-15 15:28:45]
 
a/c dxer
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 5:01 am

So if I get this right. He was trying to cheat the system and only pay for 1 upgrade seat instead of 2.
 
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mayor
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 5:18 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 113):

I'm someone that has 6 grandchildren, so does that qualify me to have empathy for the situation?

Or maybe I still don't understand your painting Delta with such a broad brush, especially because your situation didn't even happen with Delta, but Swissair. I doubt, even with all your haranguing, that this is a systemwide problem, but it IS a problem.

I also doubt that Delta has training problems, problems about operating in bad weather, etc. as you imply, no more than any other airlines and, in most cases, probably better. I think the problem is your obvious dislike of DL in anything you write.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 119):
Truly the words of a person who doesn't understand the responsibility of taking care of ones children.
DL is negligent in policy by allowing boarding passes separating parents and Children. This is simply a company that hasn't considered that they might place children in potential danger.

Do you know if that person sitting there is stable? A molester? A rapist? A murderer? An idiot?

I don't really care, because I'm going to get the gate agent to change the seats. Or I'll get someone on the plane to switch with me. Just because one person can't help me doesn't mean that nobody else can.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
billreid
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 6:06 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 126):
don't really care, because I'm going to get the gate agent to change the seats. Or I'll get someone on the plane to switch with me. Just because one person can't help me doesn't mean that nobody else can.

You don't care.
You don't care? Not everyone is a seasoned traveler, not every situation will permit for what you suggest. Some people won't know how to handle the situation? What if it is a connecting flight where you arrive late due to operations and are last onboard? Do you ask the gate agent to help you even though the flight departs in 5 minutes and it is full? What do you do when the Flight Attendant says hurry, take your seat or you will delay the flight?

Quoting mayor (Reply 125):
I also doubt that Delta has training problems, problems about operating in bad weather, etc. as you imply, no more than any other airlines and, in most cases, probably better. I think the problem is your obvious dislike of DL in anything you write.

FYI I am a MM with DL. I lost respect for Anderson since his MEA comments and his anti-US position on the IM Bank suggesting killing support for Boeing and US jobs. I am not anti-DL, I am anti ALL airlines BAR-NONE that would suggest for one moment separating a child under 12 from there parent(s). I am passionate because something happened to one of my children onboard that was cruel and malicious. I therefore take the position that the only way to avoid the same risk is to ensure, and make it a rule "under 12 will only fly seated with family members."

Quoting mayor (Reply 125):
Or maybe I still don't understand your painting Delta with such a broad brush, especially because your situation didn't even happen with Delta, but Swissair. I doubt, even with all your haranguing, that this is a systemwide problem, but it IS a problem.

Your belief is that if a problem occurred on another airline that it doesn't impact DL. After all there are no criminals, perverts or bad people that fly on US carriers? Is this your premise?

My belief is that all carriers should NEVER separate a passenger from children under twelve. If an upgrade is an issue and there aren't two seats together then the UPG should be denied. If its an upgrade that costs money then require the fee for both pax, but policy must always keep the young minor coupled to the parent. What was clear in this case was DL did not allow the checkin agent to keep both together, and she/he didn't have the ability to make changes.

Once you start selling seat assignments you run into situations where staff are blocked from making changes without charging a fee. I cannot think of a single instance where blocking keeping family members together is justified in lieu of revenues.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 127):
What if it is a connecting flight where you arrive late due to operations and are last onboard? Do you ask the gate agent to help you even though the flight departs in 5 minutes and it is full?

I'd have already dealt with it with the gate agent at my first flight.

Quoting billreid (Reply 127):
What do you do when the Flight Attendant says hurry, take your seat or you will delay the flight?

I'd tell them I'm not sitting apart from my child, and that if they wanted to delay the flight until the situation was resolved they could.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 9:34 am

My my... what an unessesary argument with an easy solution. Simply restrict seat selection until check-in for all except for a paid alternative and free seat selection at the time of booking for elites. Then this allows the airline to assign seats for family members 3 days prior to departure. This is one of the BA policies and I think it is great.

However, I fear many may not like that idea...  
 
cgnnrw
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 2:00 pm

This happened to me last year on a JetBlue flight: the flight was on an E190 I booked an aisle seat when I purchased the ticket. I boarded the plane made my way to my seat. When I got there I discovered a man sitting there next to a young woman with an infant in her lap. When I said "excuse me are you in the right seat?" He replied "this is my wife and baby, my seat is 3 rows back". I replied "okay, no problem" and went and sat in his seat. Now, it was not a real issue for me at the moment, the flight was just over an hour and I had an aisle seat. However, a little while later the whole scene repeated itself in my mind and I realized what jerk the guy was. His total lack of manners and arrogance really annoyed me. He didn't ask if we could switch seats, he didn't thank me for agreeing to switch seats either. It was his total self-absorption "me,my wife and baby" and screw everyone else because I have a child. Would it have been asking too much from them to speak to the gate agent before boarding?
A330 man.
 
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WROORD
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sat May 16, 2015 9:40 pm

Quoting afcjets (Reply 114):
It really disturbs me a seven year would have to sit with total strangers, stuff like that can have really negative psychological effects on some children, and while I respect everyone has a right to their opinion, it really disturbs me the number of people who now consider a parent sitting next to their young child a luxury subject to an additional fee and should be reserved for only those who can afford it

Could not agree more with you. Fortunately for my daughter she had a seat next to a very gracious young teacher and was totally engage in conversation most of the trip.
 
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b727fa
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sun May 17, 2015 2:29 am

It wasn't about "charging a parent to sit with their child." It was about a family buying Basic Economy and expecting a seat assignment prior to arrival at the gate and then expecting to get for free what other people were willing to pay for. That's it.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
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antoniemey
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sun May 17, 2015 3:54 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 122):
This problem of the airport not being able to access the entire Y cabin without collecting additional funds this close in appears to be a Delta only thing and it may be somewhat recent, however airport staff at other airlines might be able to provide insight.

In UA's system we can easily change seats in the non-upgrade areas of the plane. We can also waive the upgrade fees for valid customer service reasons at the counter (and I've many times used "family needing seats together" without trouble). I don't know how DL's system works. I do know that I've had cases where there just simply weren't two seats to assign together, upgrade or not, and I've in those cases told the passenger that they could definitely get the situation resolved at the gate and to speak with the gate agent AS SOON AS they arrived there. Then I would call the gate to give them a heads up about the situation. Often times this results in the problem being solved prior to the passengers reaching the gate. I've also been on the gate agent end, both where the counter couldn't solve the issue and where the passenger waited until the last second to deal with seating issues. It's not fun, but I've always sorted it out one way or another, even if I had to ask the F/A to assist. And no delays because of it, either.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
billreid
Posts: 761
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RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sun May 17, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 128):
I'd have already dealt with it with the gate agent at my first flight.
Quoting Mir (Reply 128):
I'd tell them I'm not sitting apart from my child, and that if they wanted to delay the flight until the situation was resolved they could.

You seam to have an answer for everything, but fail to address the article with any sense of logic.
The questions is whether DL should have a policy keeping kids with their guardian or parent, not how you would handle a hypothetical situation.

I went back and re-read the article. Nowhere does it mention an upgrade. It mentions $1200 in fares and a $88 fee to change a seat assignment. What is truly missing in this thread is anybody saying "I am a DL employee and this is never a problem because our policy is ..............." Instead people blog from two sides. Some like MIR think airlines can treat people like an unlimited revenue stream and who cares. Others take the side of caution and believe airlines should do its utmost to protect children from stress and danger.

As I said my daughter was physically burned by another passenger with a cigarette years back. On that flight we were polite and didn't rock the boat and simply took our assigned seats.

What MIR fails to consider is that not every passenger would do what he would. It makes his comments nothing short of ignorant, because different people react differently and see the world differently. It is for that reason a responsible airline would look for solutions and resolve problems rather than using a separation in seat assignments as a revenue opportunity.
Some people don't get it. Business is about making MONEY!
 
afcjets
Posts: 3538
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:20 pm

RE: Shameless Seating-4 Year Old 11 Rows Away Or Pay

Sun May 17, 2015 5:29 am

Quoting billreid (Reply 134):
Nowhere does it mention an upgrade. It mentions $1200 in fares and a $88 fee to change a seat assignment.

Unfortunately in today's environment, that is also now considered an upgrade. Even at US Air where it doesn't even result in extra leg room, just a seat closer to the front.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 133):
antoniemey

That is exactly how every agent should handle it, and how I would expect Delta would expect its staff to handle it, except they can't because of how they programmed the system to keep charging for EC upgrades until the last minute. I bet someone at Delta did not consider how family unfriendly this makes their checkin system and I bet they will resolve it but I could be wrong. It will be interesting to see how those who defend Delta no matter what will respond if Delta changes their lockdown on the seat map without $ until an hour out and comes out with an apology or statement it was never their intention to have families pay up or risk having your four old separated from you. Delta may not be too happy if they were to read this thread and saw how some of their employees didn't realize it was a mis-step on their part and justified that Delta had every right to charge extra to keep a 4 year old with their parent. After all, there is a reason they do NOT accept four year unaccompanied minors, who would at least have the luxury of being flagged on the manifest and the F/As would know to keep a watchful eye on them throughout the flight.

https://pro.delta.com/content/deltapro/en_US/products-and-services/special-services/unaccompanied-minor--umnr--service.html

[Edited 2015-05-16 22:41:12]

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