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mozart
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What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 9:25 am

I remember how a couple of years ago BA and AA announced a shuttle-type operation between JFK and LHR. From London, flights would leave once per hour at the same minutes past the hour between approx. 8AM and 8PM. From JFK, departures were a little more condensed in the evening hours, but still with some regularity in the minutes past the hour.

I cannot find the original press release anymore, but here is an adticle from the Guardian talking about the setup: http://www.theguardian.com/business/...mar/17/theairlineindustry-business

Looking at the BA/AA schedule today, it is much more irregular. AA is down to three flights a day between LHR and JFK.

So what happened? Why did they change those schedules?

[Edited 2015-05-14 02:30:22]
 
bthebest
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 12:06 pm

Today's schedule for LHR to JFK:

8.25
9.40
10.05 - AA
11.20
12.50 - AA
1.10
2.35
3.22
4.00
5.00 - AA
6.05
7.00
8.05

BA operates all those unless otherwise marked, and is about one an hour. But they're on a joint venture, so they share all operating costs and profits, regardless of who actually flies it. Yes, some of the times are irregular in the morning, but still more of a shuttle operation than many other routes.
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 12:19 pm

Despite the reportage, the joint AA/BA schedule - which has been in place since the two fully implemented their JV in the fall of 2010 - did not ever, to my knowledge, including flights spaced exactly one hour apart at the top of every hour. It was never quite that precise, and there was always some variation. What it did do, though, was generally space the flights "evenly" or at least approximately evenly throughout the day westbound, and also space them a bit apart eastbound (where, for practical scheduling reasons, virtually all the flights depart within a five hour window, anyway).

As for AA, AA has been at 3x daily on the route for several years now. AA was previously at 4x daily, with AA operating the later of the two eastbound morning departures (BA was typically at around 0800, AA around 0900-0930) but now both of those are operated by BA, and earlier (this summer the BA flights are ~0700-0730 and ~0830) so as to facilitate better connectivity at LHR. When that change was made, AA intimated that it would return to a 4x daily schedule at some point in the future when its 777 reconfigurations were done. Personally, I doubt it. We'll see.

Either way, the important point is that the schedule between the two is, indeed, now joint - meaning that they're able to legally collude on scheduling and pricing and thus make decisions about both that are best for the two of them collectively. As such, if they jointly decided that for economic or schedule or any other reasons, it made more sense for AA to operate 3x daily and BA 9x daily, then so be it. And similarly, if they decide that because of lots of inbound connections at that time or for whatever reason it makes sense to have two flights leaving within 20 minutes of each other (at 1250 and 1310) then so be it.
 
CPH-R
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 12:41 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 2):
What it did do, though, was generally space the flights "evenly" or at least approximately evenly throughout the day westbound,

Yup, a graphic from from the thread when the "shuttle" was originally announced, explains it quite well:
AA/BA To Start JFK-LHR Shuttle In April (by MAH4546 Oct 6 2010 in Civil Aviation)
 
vv701
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting mozart (Thread starter):
Looking at the BA/AA schedule today, it is much more irregular. AA is down to three flights a day between LHR and JFK.

I think expectations here might be a little too high.

The first BA/AA LHR-JFK flight of the day is scheduled to depart at 08:25. The last is scheduled at 20:05. In between there are ten other flights. So in 11 hrs 35 mins there are 12 scheduled departures, an average of one every 58 mins 20 secs. So average frequency is fractionally more than one every hour.

Below are the 12 daily flights, their departure time with the departure time of that BA flight number in the Summer 2008 timetable in parentheses , the interval between that flight and the next earlier flight and the variation from an interval of exactly one hour between those flights. I am quoting all BA flight numbers but the four figure15xx flights are on AA metal:


BA117: d. 08:25 (08:55); n.a; n.a

BA175: d. 09:40 (10:25), 75 mins; +15 mins

BA1516: d. 10:05: 25 mins: -35 mins

BA173: d. 11:20 (19:40); 75 mins; +15 mins

BA1506: d. 12:50; 80 mins; +30 mins

BA177: d. 13:10 (13:40); 20 mins; -40 mins

BA115: d. 14:35 (17:00); 85 mins; +25 mins

BA113: d. 16:00 (15:40); 85 mins; +25 mins

BA1510: d. 17:00; 60 mins; +0 mins

BA179: d. 18:05 (18:05); 65 mins; +5 mins

BA181: d, 19:00; 55 mins; -5 mins

BA183: d. 20:05 (20:00); 65 mins; +5 mins


Recognising that:


1. LHR is slot bound so there is and has been no absolute freedom of choice of slot timings

2. BA has had to provide remedy slots to competitors to allow for both its ATI with AA and its purchase of BD with the competitor allowed to nominate the approximate timing of those remedy slots

3. According to the web site of LHR slot coordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd , of the 4,920 weekly LHR slots awarded to BA for the current Summer Season, 9.6 per cent are at times different to those applied for with the variation between the applied for and awarded timings being between 5 and 45 mins

4. All LHR slot timings are every five minutes with no slots TIMED in the intervening four minutes

5. BA is not only concerned with the timings of its 63 weekly LHR-JFK flights but all of its other scheduled 2,397 weekly LHR departures.

6. Actual experience of passenger preferences may have resulted in BA having adjusted its timing objectives for JFK departing flights

7. Arriving connecting flights may be impact preferred departure times.


and noting the on-the-hour-every-hour pattern of the last five flights of the day and that three other flights depart within ten minutes of the hour, the timings are not too distant to the original broadly stated objective.
 
usairways85
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 1:15 pm

JFK-LHR isn't spaced quite as well, disregarding the midday gap.

JFK-LHR
6/22
715
805
600 AA
630 AA
635
700
730
840
920
940
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting usairways85 (Reply 5):
JFK-LHR isn't spaced quite as well, disregarding the midday gap.

That's probably due to lack of timing choices. Daytime eastbound aren't too popular, and you probably can't be landing at LHR at 3am, so all the choices would be clumped together during early evening (technically they can place flights to depart up midnight ET but probably won't be too popular either)

Anyone who's been to JFK T7 around 5-7pm can attest to how chaotic it is. Mid-day, the place is virtually a ghost town.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 2:23 pm

The real story is the total decimation of AA at JFK...particulay this route

Once 6 daily

Then 5

Then 4

Then 3


Oh here comes Delta...

Same old story for AA at JFK

Commavia will come to sugar coat it now. "Joint ventures" "777 configuration" terms will be used


But no need for the smoke screen...AA spent a billion dollars at JFK for a palace...it crowned a decade lost in the abyss for AA at JFK
 
realsim
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 2:35 pm

I agree with jfklganyc. This is a route where AA needs more presence. Even if there is a JV and AA gets profits from the BA operated flights, it's such an important route that the AA brand has to be more visible. At the end, customers only notice if they have travelled in a BA or AA aircraft. The 4th flight has to come back.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 3:21 pm

Quoting realsim (Reply 8):
I agree with jfklganyc. This is a route where AA needs more presence. Even if there is a JV and AA gets profits from the BA operated flights, it's such an important route that the AA brand has to be more visible. At the end, customers only notice if they have travelled in a BA or AA aircraft. The 4th flight has to come back.

Exactly my sentiments. JV/JBA is supposed to SUPPLEMENT each airline, not replace them.
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
Commavia will come to sugar coat it now.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
"Joint ventures" "777 configuration" terms will be used

Jeez. Why not read what I actually wrote, hmmm? As I said - AA itself claimed that that the 777 reconfiguration was the culprit for dropping the fourth frequency, but I, personally, don't expect it to come back.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
AA spent a billion dollars at JFK for a palace

A billion dollars on what I view as probably the airport's nicest terminal, which is now quite well-utilized at peak times owing to the heavy utilization from not just AA, but also partners.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 7):
it crowned a decade lost in the abyss for AA at JFK

Okay, although it must be said that now with PHL AA needs JFK - at least as a "hub" - far less. AA's intransigence and stupidity certainly cost it major ground at JFK, although personally I do think AA's position there now is quite good, with a healthy slot portfolio and O&D-oriented network with connections left to the true "hub" at PHL for which such connections are far better-suited. Call that "sugar coating" if you want, but I think it's reality.

Quoting realsim (Reply 8):
This is a route where AA needs more presence. Even if there is a JV and AA gets profits from the BA operated flights, it's such an important route that the AA brand has to be more visible. At the end, customers only notice if they have travelled in a BA or AA aircraft. The 4th flight has to come back.

I'm not so sure. I don't necessarily disagree with the premise that AA would benefit from a greater brand presence in this market, but I am just not sure that adding a fourth daily frequency would really have all that big an impact in that direction. AA going back up to 6x daily? Yeah - that would definitely have an impact. But merely adding one more flight wouldn't be all that big a change, I suspect. Personally, while - again, I don't necessarily disagree about AA's need for brand presence in this strategic market - I'm not sure if AA's overall presence isn't better-served by having gone all-77W as opposed to just adding another frequency.
 
jayunited
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 3:38 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 2):
As for AA, AA has been at 3x daily on the route for several years now. AA was previously at 4x daily, with AA operating the later of the two eastbound morning departures (BA was typically at around 0800, AA around 0900-0930) but now both of those are operated by BA, and earlier (this summer the BA flights are ~0700-0730 and ~0830) so as to facilitate better connectivity at LHR. When that change was made, AA intimated that it would return to a 4x daily schedule at some point in the future when its 777 reconfigurations were done. Personally, I doubt it. We'll see.

AA only has 3x daily departures between JFK and LHR I thought they had more nonstops like 5 or 6 daily. Here at ORD they are down to 3x daily because they move a flight to LAX to go daily double out of LAX what happend at JFK where did they move those flights to?
 
irishpower
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:10 pm

With 6 of the 8 BA flights being on 747's (2x on a 777) what will happen when BA starts to retire their 747's?


Will this become a 777-9 route? How will BA replace the capacity loss of all of those 747's?
 
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OA412
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:14 pm

Quoting irishpower (Reply 12):

They'll probably use the A35J's they have on order.
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anstar
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:48 pm

So the British carriers VS/BA have more flights LHR to JFK (10 BA, 5 VS) versus the American carriers DL (3) and AA (3).

Is this because more of the traffic originates from the UK or that their is a preference for the UK carriers over the Us carriers?
 
BA0197
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 9):
Exactly my sentiments. JV/JBA is supposed to SUPPLEMENT each airline, not replace them

And they are doing just that! People must realise this is not a LON-NYC JV; it is a USA-EU JV. So AA has chosen to expand on the continent and partly leave LHR to its JV partner. BA has grown very little in regards to its EU-USA destinations (which is de facto LON-USA) not in the least because of LHR slot restrictions, while if anything AA has capitalised on expanding on the continent.

That is what the JV is about, pooling and sharing resources!

I also wouldn't call AA small at LHR (it is by many measures a mini-hub in its network). And the AA brand is known throughout the UK, not in the least because of its partnership with BA.

[Edited 2015-05-14 09:55:55]

[Edited 2015-05-14 09:57:09]
 
gzbja
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:57 pm

One flight/slot was being looked after by BA while there were some refurbishments in the fleet by AA. BA181 was the flight number.

That was quite a while ago though (over a year) so not sure if it will return back to AA.
 
BA0197
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:58 pm

Quoting gzbja (Reply 16):
One flight/slot was being looked after by BA while there were some refurbishments in the fleet by AA. BA181 was the flight number.

That was quite a while ago though (over a year) so not sure if it will return back to AA.

I doubt it will be because of my argument above.
 
gzbja
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting irishpower (Reply 12):

747s are being refurbished into a super high J and I would presume they will be used on the LHR-JFK route. There will be 18 of these aircraft and they will be with BA until about 2023.
 
vv701
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting irishpower (Reply 12):
How will BA replace the capacity loss of all of those 747's?
Quoting OA412 (Reply 13):
They'll probably use the A35J's they have on order.

Additionally it is worth remembering that BA uses its 'Hi J' 299 seat 744s on the JFK route and that it is already operating 77Ws configured with 297 seats. However while the 744s are configured F14 / J70 / W30 / Y177, their 77Ws are configured F14 / J56 / W44 / Y183. To complete the picture the aircraft operating the twice daily 772 flights are usually those configured F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124 although those with an F12 / J48 / W32 / Y121 as well as the afore mentioned 77W are sometimes substituted.

However BA still expect to be operating a large 744 fleet out to 2023 and beyond. The well respected Jethro's Fleet listing says that BA will reduce their 744 'Fleet to 30 during 17 - 23'. Of course that's plenty enough for more than the current seven-times-daily service.
 
gzbja
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 17):

Agreed, I hadn't read your post at the time of posting.

You make a good point about the lack of new routes into the USA which is surprising as this tends to be our biggest market and apparently our most profitable!
 
BA0197
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:06 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 19):
Additionally it is worth remembering that BA uses its 'Hi J' 299 seat 744s on the JFK route and that it is already operating 77Ws configured with 297 seats. However while the 744s are configured F14 / J70 / W30 / Y177, their 77Ws are configured F14 / J56 / W44 / Y183. To complete the picture the aircraft operating the twice daily 772 flights are usually those configured F14 / J48 / W40 / Y124 although those with an F12 / J48 / W32 / Y121 as well as the afore mentioned 77W are sometimes substituted.

Indeed the route requires and demand's BA's high J capacity on the High-J 744s. This is another reason as well why BA need to operate this route for the benefit of the JV. I am still hearing strong rumours that BA are considering reverting to their trial of 99J "Super-High J" experiment completed in the late 1990s on two or three aircraft for the exclusive use on the JFK route. Just an unsubstantiated rumour, but BA/AA really rely on J capacity on their flagship route.
 
BA0197
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:09 pm

Quoting gzbja (Reply 20):
Agreed, I hadn't read your post at the time of posting.

You make a good point about the lack of new routes into the USA which is surprising as this tends to be our biggest market and apparently our most profitable!
Quoting gzbja (Reply 18):
747s are being refurbished into a super high J and I would presume they will be used on the LHR-JFK route. There will be 18 of these aircraft and they will be with BA until about 2023.

And indeed you beat me about the Super-J config as well! Although, as far as I'm aware this is still a rumour? But the 744 refurbishments are coming so we should know if we are correct quite soon.
 
gzbja
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:12 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 22):

It starts in September this year the refurbs but it hasn't be announced the exact config and what else is happening to the 18 747s.

Outside of BA that is...

[Edited 2015-05-14 10:13:38]
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:51 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 21):
but BA/AA really rely on J capacity on their flagship route

No question about it. This is one aspect of AA's rationalization of reducing frequency, and the ostensible raison d'être for going all-77W, that I actually do buy. As is well known here, JFK-LHR is without question the most premium-heavy longhaul route on earth, linking together the world's two largest and most important commercial and financial hubs, and the AA/BA JV is the undisputed leader on the city pair. As such, AA's 777 J product was becoming ever-less-competitive in this market, whereas AA's 77W product is now among the best, if not arguably the single best, J product/s (at least hard product) on the route.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 24):
As such, AA's 777 J product was becoming ever-less-competitive in this market, whereas AA's 77W product is now among the best, if not arguably the single best, J product/s (at least hard product) on the route.

Which also flies at the lowest frequency.
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 25):
Which also flies at the lowest frequency.

In the scheme of things, the difference matters little.

Both AA and Delta have identical frequency JFK-LHR, and Delta also has another 767 from EWR. Okay. Not a substantial difference, particularly since both are tied to far larger JVs with British partners that offer substantial more frequency and/or capacity on both routes, and can jointly sell as much to corporate customers. The network carrier that truly offers corporate customers the "lowest frequency" between NYC and LON is United, which has zero presence out of JFK, and a total of 5x daily in the market, all from EWR. And even there, I don't think it's all that major an issue since United's schedule is still quite well-timed and broadly competitive, and has the massive EWR hub to draw upon that neither AA nor Delta has at JFK.

Put simply - if AA has a daily flight and Delta or United has 20 that would be one thing. But that's not the case.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 26):

Both AA and Delta have identical frequency JFK-LHR, and Delta also has another 767 from EWR. Okay. Not a substantial difference, particularly since both are tied to far larger JVs with British partners that offer substantial more frequency and/or capacity on both routes, and can jointly sell as much to corporate customers. The network carrier that truly offers corporate customers the "lowest frequency" between NYC and LON is United, which has zero presence out of JFK, and a total of 5x daily in the market, all from EWR. And even there, I don't think it's all that major an issue since United's schedule is still quite well-timed and broadly competitive, and has the massive EWR hub to draw upon that neither AA nor Delta has at JFK.

How many times we have to remind JV does not equal the same experience ? There's no such thing as "metal neutral" from the passenger's perspective.

Try using your SWU on any one of the BA flights. Or try using your DL global upgrade cert on VS. Whoops.

Spin it anyway you want - AA metal is 3x daily NYC-LON and 0x daily NYC-TYO.

[Edited 2015-05-14 11:36:23]
 
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 14):
Is this because more of the traffic originates from the UK or that their is a preference for the UK carriers over the Us carriers?

Probably because VS and BA only have one hub, LHR. Whereas the US carriers have around 8-10 hubs, where at least 5-7 of those hubs have flights to LHR, some with multiple frequencies per day. So the US carriers have a lot more flexability in moving pax from the US from their multiple hubs versus BA and VS only have the choice to route all their US bound pax through their one hub.
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commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 6:47 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):
How many times we have to remind JV does not equal the same experience ? There's no such thing as "metal neutral" from the passenger's perspective.

Try using your SWU on any one of the BA flights. Or try using your DL global upgrade cert on VS. Whoops.

Don't need any reminding. I know it quite well. What I also know is that for the market and target demographic in question here, SWU exchangability is far less important because these customers are already paying to sit in the premium cabin (either F or J), often via corporate travel policy and blanket agreement with the JV. It is notable that for all the droning on and on, AA and BA (and for that matter Delta and Virgin) seem quite fine with their present arrangement(s), which in AA/BA's case includes multiple daily flights by AA on its largest aircraft featuring its premier premium product, coupled with numerous daily flights on BA that cumulatively amount to by far the largest and most comprehensive schedule offering in this, the world's largest and most premium longhaul market. In the context of the 16 daily flights jointly offered between NYC and LON, I suspect AA is comfortable with its competitive position.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):
Try using your SWU on any one of the BA flights.

How is that a knock on metal neutral flights? More seats for those who buy F and J, higher unit revenue. So some low-yielding EXP's can't upgrade. Too bad.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 30):

How is that a knock on metal neutral flights? More seats for those who buy F and J, higher unit revenue. So some low-yielding EXP's can't upgrade. Too bad.

Low-yielding ? Those "8 SWU on any fare" is constantly touted as the AAdvantage's biggest selling point over DL/UA programs. Without any use for those, nothing special about a fleet that's still half on slanted J.

Quoting commavia (Reply 29):
In the context of the 16 daily flights jointly offered between NYC and LON, I suspect AA is comfortable with its competitive position.

Your typical way of thinking from the airline's PoV (metal neutral) rather than the customer. The customer is flying BA, not a "JV". Being metal neutral means jack to the customer.

AA is also the only US3 airline that their own elites can't use a systemwide upgrade cert on any flight to Australia. That's the shortfall of "JV/JBA". Still think it's all "neutral" ??
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:28 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 31):
Without any use for those, nothing special about a fleet that's still half on slanted J.

"Without any use." Okay - so I see we've once again arrived at hyper-sensitive, United-isn't-greatest-so-let's-rant alternate reality yet again. There are plenty of pros and cons to each of the major U.S. carriers these days, but if one honestly thinks that AA's network truly doesn't offer "any" use for those SWUs, then there's really no need to continue with this typically-pointless back and forth.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 31):
The customer is flying BA, not a "JV". Being metal neutral means jack to the customer.

Actually, no, plenty of the "customers" in this case are corporations who are signing broad agreements covering preferential terms, including joint schedules and prices, across the entire JV. Again - it's notable, for all the noise made here about it, how little noise appears to be made about it from AA and BA, who obviously seem quite happy with the results of the JV in the NYC-LON and broader U.S.-U.K. markets. Clearly they don't seem to believe it's hurting their business, and ultimately that's what matters.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 31):
AA is also the only US3 airline that their own elites can't use a systemwide upgrade cert on any flight to Australia. That's the shortfall of "JV/JBA". Still think it's all "neutral" ??

And AA is also the only one of the US3 whose elites can use SWUs on any flight, any fare, any time. So you win some, you lose some.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 32):
Clearly they don't seem to believe it's hurting their business, and ultimately that's what matters.

Yup, another statement from the airline's point of view again. Do you think customers care rats about how well their airline performed ? Customers want good seats, good times, good prices, and good services. None of them care a single bit about how much PRASM gain one had in a quarter.

How AA/BA feel about their JV is so irrelevant.
 
flyby519
Posts: 1583
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:38 pm

Wow, I'm completely shocked that AA only flies 3x LHR flights from JFK. How much longer until JFK isn't a hub for AA?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5359
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:40 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 34):

Wow, I'm completely shocked that AA only flies 3x LHR flights from JFK. How much longer until JFK isn't a hub for AA?

It's what they came up with in the JV with BA. I am sure AA is selling a ton of tickets on these flights.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:43 pm

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 34):
How much longer until JFK isn't a hub for AA?

I don't think JFK is a "hub" for AA now - marketing aside, and regardless of how many flights it operates JFK-LHR. Now that it has a JV with BA, which is and always has been the dominant carrier in this market, AA doesn't need to fly 6x daily including 1-2 morning departures and 4-5 evening redeyes anymore, and can instead optimize that schedule with BA.

AA's NYC operations are simply not of the scale to truly constitute a "hub" the way that United's EWR operation or AA's PHL operation are. Rather, AA's NYC operations - at both JFK and LGA - are far more concentrated and tailored towards premium-heavy O&D markets and selective, opportunistic connections such as between certain smaller midwest markets and the European departure/arrival bank (although I, personally, think these, too, will be gone soon and replaced with other, better uses for those slots).
 
8herveg
Posts: 1540
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:01 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 7:54 pm

I personally think AA and BA should operate it so that AA flies its own metal more on the route. Something like this:

LHR-JFK

08:00 British Airways
09:00 American Airlines
10:00 British Airways
11:00 American Airlines
12:00 British Airways
13:00 American Airlines
14:00 British Airways
15:00 American Airlines
16:00 British Airways
17:00 American Airlines
18:00 British Airways
19:00 American Airlines
20:00 British Airways


JFK-LHR

08:00 British Airways
09:00 American Airlines
18:00 British Airways
18:30 American Airlines
19:00 British Airways
19:30 American Airlines
20:00 British Airways
20:30 American Airlines
21:00 British Airways
21:30 American Airlines
22:00 British Airways
22:30 American Airlines
23:00 British Airways
 
User avatar
cageyjames
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:08 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 8:13 pm

Quoting 8herveg (Reply 37):

I personally think AA and BA should operate it so that AA flies its own metal more on the route.

Those aircraft have to come from somewhere else. Right now AA believes they are better suited to have them fly to South America or Asia.
 
psimpson
Posts: 314
Joined: Fri May 26, 2006 9:38 pm

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Thu May 14, 2015 9:02 pm

Yes i remember AA operating 6 B772 flights a day between LHR-JFK.
From my recollection they were.

AA115 8.30
AA101 11.00
AA105 13.00
AA131 16.00
AA107 18.00
AA141 20.00
 
Indio66
Posts: 403
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:22 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 1:02 am

I am a frequent flier on this route. The shuttle concept never made sense to me as the AA product was clearly inferior, both on the ground and in the air. BA charges more for their product (and deservedly so), and the business traveler only wants to fly AA if BA is sold out or they are on a corp deal and need to fly AA.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 1:10 am

Quoting Indio66 (Reply 40):
I am a frequent flier on this route. The shuttle concept never made sense to me as the AA product was clearly inferior, both on the ground and in the air. BA charges more for their product (and deservedly so), and the business traveler only wants to fly AA if BA is sold out or they are on a corp deal and need to fly AA.

Five years ago - I would have totally agreed with you. But today, I respectfully disagree. Having just flown twice in longhaul J on both AA and BA In the last two weeks, my personal opinion is that the gap between the two - especially in J - has narrowed dramatically in the last year with the introduction of the 77W.

I find AA's new J hard product (seat) substantially superior to BA's (and most other airlines') for a variety of reasons, and I personally found IFE to be a tie between the two, and food tipped in BA's favor, but frankly not by much. I found the FAs on both AA and BA to be quite friendly on all four flights. In terms of lounges, I also found it a mixed bag, with food far better with BA but other aspects (like showers) far better with AA.
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 1352
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 1:58 am

AA's announced intent when they started shifting operating flights from AA to BA was to be temporary while the AA fleet was being reconfigured for full-flat 180 degree Business sleeper seats. The goal being product consistency regardless of the AA/BA J.V. flight booked. At the time, the AA planes had only the angled lie-flats and less suite-like J class. The BA fleet and the AA 77W and the 788 do/will have this on introduction...the AA 772 and 763 require the upgraded cabin reconfiguration.

Again the announced intent was that AA would pick some of the flights back up as the fleet comes up.

Announced intent and reality, however, may not turn out to be the same thing. With the J.V., the revenue share doesn't matter. If BA can operate LHR-JFK more often, it frees the AA machines to go to other markets and still make the bean counters happy.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines (Retired). Flight Memory: 181 airports, 92 airlines, 78 a/c types, 403 routes, 58 countries (by air), 6 continents. 1,119,414 passenger miles.

Home airport : CEC
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 41):
Five years ago - I would have totally agreed with you. But today, I respectfully disagree. Having just flown twice in longhaul J on both AA and BA In the last two weeks, my personal opinion is that the gap between the two - especially in J - has narrowed dramatically in the last year with the introduction of the 77W.

Most passengers aren't flying J. I would choose BA's 9-abreast 777s (or 10-abreast 744s) any day over AA's 10-abreast 777s.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 11:04 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
Most passengers aren't flying J.

"Most passengers" aren't flying J, but many "business travelers" - what was originally mentioned, and what I was responding to - are. In a market like this, the competition in the premium cabin is particularly important. And as I said, my personal perspective from very recent experience is that the AA and BA J products overall - on the ground and in the air, including hard and soft product - are far closer than they used to be.
 
BA0197
Posts: 392
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 44):
the AA and BA J products overall - on the ground and in the air, including hard and soft product - are far closer than they used to be.

Very much agree with this and (perhaps to the dismay of some) there was an internal memo that went around at the time of the JV being awarded that AA would be investing in their LH product to increase its competitiveness and make the JV (as a whole) broadly in-line with BA's product. The new cabins and aircraft are representative of that.

For the business traveller, travelling J with the OW JV, each airline has its own benefits to fly on. Nowadays, broadly speaking, AA has a better hard product, yet the BA soft product makes up for that in various ways that still, IMHO leaves BA ahead, slightly. Things like pre-flight dinning on departure from JFK, the Galleries lounges (far superior to AAdmirals Clubs), Spa, and Terminal 5 etc. There is IMHO, no doubt that the BA First product is streets ahead of the AA one.

There also seems to be a common perception that JFK-LHR is all O&D. Transfer pax will naturally want to fly BA to avoid a T3-T5 transfer as well.

But there is no doubt AA have the best J hard product in the market and I have no doubt that AA is very pleased with their expansion into the continent (something they have generally been weaker in when compared to the other US3), whilist keeping LHR a very strong spoke (and practically a hub) that relies on O&D and transfer pax to an equal extent that allows their customers to seamlessly connect on BA to Europe and beyond.
 
commavia
Posts: 11489
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: What Happened To The BA/AA Shuttle LHR-JFK?

Fri May 15, 2015 12:22 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 45):
Very much agree with this and (perhaps to the dismay of some) there was an internal memo that went around at the time of the JV being awarded that AA would be investing in their LH product to increase its competitiveness and make the JV (as a whole) broadly in-line with BA's product. The new cabins and aircraft are representative of that.

  

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 45):
Nowadays, broadly speaking, AA has a better hard product, yet the BA soft product makes up for that in various ways that still, IMHO leaves BA ahead, slightly.

Agree. Although again - I will admit that here, too, I think the gap has really narrowed in the last few years. A few years ago, roughly concurrent with the introduction of the 77W, AA introduced the midflight dining walk-up bar in the passthrough space between premium cabins, and for all of the complaining, I personally found my J meals on AA last week to be quite good (in terms of both quality and quantity). I agree with you - BA does win on soft product, but AA is quite good, too.

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 45):
the Galleries lounges (far superior to AAdmirals Clubs), Spa, and Terminal 5

I'll give you LHR T5 (which is, no question, far superior to T3) and the Elemis spa, which is quite nice (especially on a long layover), and also no question that the food in particular in the Galleries lounge is dramatically better than the very meager offerings in the Admirals Club. But again, I will put in an honorable mention for one area where AA's lounges are consistently better than BA's, in my experience, and that's showers - BA's shower suites at LHR are cramped and, in my view, barely functional, whereas those at the Admirals Club are far larger, with more room to spread out, open a piece of luggage to get a change of clothes, etc., and also look much nicer and less like a hospital (as BA's do).

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 45):
There also seems to be a common perception that JFK-LHR is all O&D. Transfer pax will naturally want to fly BA to avoid a T3-T5 transfer as well.

Fair, although when this transfer passenger is using FF miles, I try and fly AA whenever possible so as to avoid the incredible BA fees. (Relevant experience from last year: same routing, same nonstop on AA and BA with departure time difference of ~2 hrs, AA FF fee: $6, BA FF fee: $256.)

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 45):
But there is no doubt AA have the best J hard product in the market and I have no doubt that AA is very pleased with their expansion into the continent (something they have generally been weaker in when compared to the other US3), whilist keeping LHR a very strong spoke (and practically a hub) that relies on O&D and transfer pax to an equal extent that allows their customers to seamlessly connect on BA to Europe and beyond.

Agree. The AA-BA JV is today, particularly now with the USAirways merger, quite a compelling proposition for U.S.-E.U. travelers. AA now has a constellation of very large gateways across the U.S. to funnel passengers back and forth between the U.S. and LHR for onward connections, and also to most of the major markets on the Continent. Looking at the combined network offering of AA and USAirways, AA now has a fairly impressive roster of nonstop flights out of CDG, FRA, FCO, MAD, DUB, etc., not to mention of course LHR where AA remains the largest U.S. carrier with the most flights and seats and, most importantly, is the JV partner with the dominant hub carrier at the premier airport serving the largest and most important market in Europe.

No question that on a standalone basis Delta is larger to Europe, and likely will remain so, and I believe on a JV basis Delta and its JV partners, and United and its JV partners, are still both larger than AA plus BA, Iberia and Finnair. But with respect to transatlantic network offering as with respect, increasingly, to the onboard product, the gap between AA and its chief rivals is narrowing markedly from where it was 3-5 years ago.

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