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Boeing717200
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 12:53 am

Good. Trust Fund money is better spent on infrastructure. Wanna live in a small town in the middle of nowhere? Take a bus.

Quoting Skywatcher (Reply 6):

Now that U.S. airlines are finally profitable again is this pork barrel program really still necessary? We don't have a subsidy like this available in Canada even though our country is larger with only a fraction of the American population. I am always amazed at how much state intervention there really is in the states despite the rhetoric to the contrary.


It comes out of the trust fund which means every time a person buys an airline ticket it subsidizes these small markets. Waste of money none-the-less.

[Edited 2015-05-21 17:55:19]
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HPRamper
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 1:42 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
There shouldn't be. And kill Amtrak too.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
I doubt things would change that much, and if they did, the economy wouldn't disappear. It would just spread out.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
Gee, that sounds important. I bet people would pay the actual airfare for something that important.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
It doesn't matter how they got there and nobody is forcing them to stay.

Don't be ridiculous. You're just trolling at this point. I guess you shouldn't have to pay health or car insurance either because that's you subsidizing everyone else too.
 
BMI727
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 51):
I guess you shouldn't have to pay health or car insurance either because that's you subsidizing everyone else too.

Car insurance is fine since driving without it will potentially deprive someone of their rights. Nobody has the right to scheduled air service.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ikramerica
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 51):
Don't be ridiculous. You're just trolling at this point. I guess you shouldn't have to pay health or car insurance either because that's you subsidizing everyone else too.

You shouldn't have to pay for health insurance, no, especially because it's not even insurance, it's a maintenance plan.

Car insurance is different, because you are using dangerous personal property on a public right of way and at minimum must have insurance to protect OTHERS from you (be they passengers in your vehicle or in other vehicles you hit). Insurance is not required to protect the car or protect you from yourself, although it would be wise to at least buy additional insurance to protect you from others as well.
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HPRamper
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 2:37 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
Car insurance is fine since driving without it will potentially deprive someone of their rights. Nobody has the right to scheduled air service.

This is a very clear illustration of a fiscally conservative mindset.
I also support ideas like caps on rent. I find rampant capitalism to be a destructive force. I don't mind paying taxes for services that I'll rarely use personally, if it benefits other people.

If a program that makes it possible for someone to fly to Adak without spending thousands on a charter jet is going to cost me a dollar a year, then by all means I'm going to support that idea. I'll never fly to Adak. Call it charity.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 2:44 am

I wish this thread would die. Anytime EAS is discussed, always comes to this type conversation. Pointless and lame.

So how come no one is complaining about the SCASD grants? More specific use of $$ but just as useless in many cases and still get federal dollars.

I would like to see welfare to individuals get trimmed more than EAS. But it (welfare) is too corrupt and abused to be fixed now IMO.
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lightsaber
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 42):
Most of people who are against EAS really have no clue what they are talking about. A good percentage of the revenue that goes towards the EAS program is collected through other aviation taxes and fees. Unless you fly general aviation a lot, the general public pays little towards the EAS program.

Did I miss the fees on my ticket? I'd rather my local airport be improved. I'm all for air service, but if a community wants it, they should work out an arrangement.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 55):
I would like to see welfare to individuals get trimmed more than EAS. But it (welfare) is too corrupt and abused to be fixed now IMO.

100% agree. But it was used to buy votes... But that doesn't make EAS right. I'm for paying for airport construction, but not the day to day service.

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cbphoto
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 4:29 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 56):
Did I miss the fees on my ticket? I'd rather my local airport be improved. I'm all for air service, but if a community wants it, they should work out an arrangement.

You won't see if on your ticket because it's not there. A sizable chunk comes from Avgas and Jet A taxes when planes (both commercial and GA) fill up.

Let me ask you, have you have been to a "true" EAS city? I'll say true EAS city, as there are a lot of cities that shouldn't get EAS service. But if you go to Alaska, or even remote cities out west, there is no way most cities or towns have the infrastructure and money to provide the community with air service. So if a community needs money, who do they turn too? The Federal Government, or EAS in this matter.

Airports have incentives as well to provide reliable air service. If they meet certain requirements and passenger counts for the year, that airport is entitled to millions of dollars in Federal aid for airport improvement projects. So if a city looses EAS money and service, they loose out on a lot more then air service, they loose out of a significant amount of funding, to help make the airport better for aviation alike!
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TIA
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri May 22, 2015 4:37 am

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 27):
I feel as long as we subsidize mass transit and construction of additional subway lines, such as Manhattan's 2nd Avenue Subway
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):
There shouldn't be. And kill Amtrak too.

That's a moot point. NYC and NYS pay more in federal taxes than they get back, so technically not only are they paying for it themselves, they're also paying for air service in places like AK. And this tends to be the case with many cities. So parallels can't be drawn between mass transit in heavily populated areas and air service to every tiny airport out there. Now I get the whole point about federalism and I'm not saying that there should be no tax transfer from the richer states to the poorer ones, but let's not compare apples to oranges.

Everybody likes to think that Amtrak is this money pit. It is but the truth is more nuanced than that. Amtrak is profitable on its short/medium distance routes. It's the long distance routes with stops in random tiny towns that lose money. But of course these services can't be scrapped because of political reasons. The irony is that the politicians that complain the most about Amtrak are the ones that would have a fit if it dropped the unprofitable long distance routes.

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 53):
You shouldn't have to pay for health insurance, no, especially because it's not even insurance, it's a maintenance

If one doesn't have insurance and gets sick or in an accident, that person will rely on the medical infrastructure previously built with the money of those who paid for insurance. Few hospitals, if any, would ever get built if they relied only on people without insurance paying for themselves when they got sick. Medical care can't be built around some on demand supply chain. If your child needs care, you can't just 3D print a pediatrist and hospital room, if they didn't exist before.
 
BMI727
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 12:20 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 54):
I also support ideas like caps on rent.

I want to live on a beach. Can I get the government to pay for that?

Quoting TIA (Reply 58):
Amtrak is profitable on its short/medium distance routes.

Then there should be no problem finding a buyer.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
rampart
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 55):
I would like to see welfare to individuals get trimmed more than EAS. But it (welfare) is too corrupt and abused to be fixed now IMO.

Compared to tax loopholes to individuals and corporations, not even close.

Of course, that's a topic of its own.

-Rampart
 
HPRamper
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 3:24 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
I want to live on a beach. Can I get the government to pay for that?

Go ahead and ask.
 
UPNYGuy
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 4:21 am

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 5):
Not to mention, Jamestown also has ERI only 61 miles away. Obviously ERI is not a hub, but it does have commercial air service and the drive is all interstate highway. Some suburbs on the "wrong side" of their major city's airport are almost as far away (east of PIT, for example).

EXACTLY!! My in-laws are from jamestown. In fact, they live less than 5 miles from JHW. However, I never fly into there, but always go to ERI, as the connections are better timed.
 
vfw614
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 6:59 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Except the reconsideration criteria was changed in late 2012.

Cities can only appeal on 3 points now.

1) Either the DOT has incorrectly calculated passenger boardings
2) DOT using incorrect road mileage to nearest hub airport
3) Communities experienced special circumstances in the previous year which led to temporary decline in enplanements to fewer than 10/day.

Recently flew into LNS and chatted up the folks running the show there. IIRC, they told me they are struggling to achieve 6-7 pax/day but were able to escape the axe (that is 6-7 pax for 5 daily flights). Not sure how often daily boardings get reviewed by EAS, so the last review could have been before 2012, but that appears unlikely.

Sometime you really have to wonder about the routes that get funding. LNS, for example, has three flights per day to PIT and two to IAH. Why three a day to PIT instead of a NYC airport is really beyond me.

I suppose EAS funding is a typical pet project for local senators and representatives who will usually announce the end of world in Washington when their local has EAS funding withdrawn.
 
TIA
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 11:57 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Then there should be no problem finding a buyer.

Completely agree if it weren't required to keep the long distance routes. Amtrak is like the whole airline industry put into one, with both profitable and EAS routes under one entity.
 
michman
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting TIA (Reply 64):
Completely agree if it weren't required to keep the long distance routes. Amtrak is like the whole airline industry put into one, with both profitable and EAS routes under one entity.

Not even close. Take a look at all the taxes and facilities charges in airline tickets. Airline passengers are paying for a good chunk of the FAA's and airport budgets. Now take a look at the taxes and charges on Amtrak tickets. Oh, that's right. There are none. Zero, Nada, Zilch.
 
masseybrown
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 2:14 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 65):
Now take a look at the taxes and charges on Amtrak tickets. Oh, that's right. There are none. Zero, Nada, Zilch.

Shhh. You'll give the Feds ideas. I believe some states do tax intrastate travel on Amtrak, but it isn't identified on the tickets.
 
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Polot
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 63):
Sometime you really have to wonder about the routes that get funding. LNS, for example, has three flights per day to PIT and two to IAH. Why three a day to PIT instead of a NYC airport is really beyond me.

Why LNS has EAS service is really beyond me. It is about an hour and a half drive from PHL, and about 40 mins from MDT which has plenty of service. The drives are not difficult at all either, other than being utterly boring.

Honestly there are very few places east of the Mississippi River where EAS is necessary, but that's politics for you.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 44):
EAS carriers also move a lot of people to doctors appointments, cancer treatments, etc.

Unless you live in a remote region like AK where there are frequently no roads EAS is usually not needed for doctor appointments and cancer treatments. By the very definition of appointment you know about it in advance and can plan accordingly.

[Edited 2015-05-23 07:28:36]
 
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AVLAirlineFreq
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 2:31 pm

I'm not naive enough to believe programs like EAS will completely go away, and it does serve a purpose for the more inaccessible communities in places like Alaska and Montana. But I would like to see a holistic evaluation of the communities for which it is needed and how it is used.

So much has changed in terms of highway infrastructure in this country since the late 1970s that some communities which were accessible only via two-lane roads are now located on four-lane high speed highways. And frankly, if we're going to have EAS in the communities that are truly more isolated (not places like Jamestown, NY and Hot Springs, AR), let's make it worth a carrier's time to put a product out there that might actually attract passengers.

I do wonder what's going to happen as 50-seat regional jets and aircraft like the Dash-8 are retired and communities served by only a single legacy carrier lose frequency and even potentially all service. It wouldn't surprise me to see a proposal to extend EAS to those communities. I'm not advocating for it, but it wouldn't shock me to see a move on Capitol Hill to do so.
 
HPRamper
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 67):
Unless you live in a remote region like AK where there are frequently no roads EAS is usually not needed for doctor appointments and cancer treatments. By the very definition of appointment you know about it in advance and can plan accordingly.

There are plenty of instances when weather can strike nearly out of nowhere and completely scrap any kind of driving plans one may have had. It's certainly not reasonable to tell someone they need to leave a week early just in case that freak blizzard hits, because I've absolutely seen 60-degree days turn into whiteouts in a matter of a few hours in Montana and Wyoming both. In fact the same reasoning behind EAS is what dictates the Amtrak line runs through the remote towns of northern Montana while completely bypassing every major city.

Note this isn't reason to not be pulling cities off the list - there are plenty of places that really shouldn't have it.
 
bjorn14
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 3:33 pm

The only real problem I see in EAS is communities like JLN getting ATR72 service. Cap it at 35/50 seats and no jets ex. AK.

For airports to reach FAA pot o' gold they need O/D of 28 pax a day. Not in their wildest dreams is this happening unless their willing to give it away.
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vfw614
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 67):
Why LNS has EAS service is really beyond me. It is about an hour and a half drive from PHL, and about 40 mins from MDT which has plenty of service. The drives are not difficult at all either, other than being utterly boring.

Honestly there are very few places east of the Mississippi River where EAS is necessary, but that's politics for you.

Interesting trivia - the only other pax on my LNS-PIT flight was connecting at PIT to CLT - where he would get on yet another EAS flight to UST. Taxpayer dollars heavily invested in that guy on that day.
 
ScottB
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 54):
If a program that makes it possible for someone to fly to Adak without spending thousands on a charter jet is going to cost me a dollar a year, then by all means I'm going to support that idea. I'll never fly to Adak. Call it charity.

Alaska handed out $1,884 to every resident of the state in 2014. The State of Alaska can afford to subsidize its own rural air service.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 69):
There are plenty of instances when weather can strike nearly out of nowhere and completely scrap any kind of driving plans one may have had.

Weather is just as disruptive to air travel, if not even more. If two feet of snow falls on a small town in Montana, that runway isn't going to be cleared quickly, either. If a thunderstorm hits, you might be delayed until the next day -- and that's not true of driving or a bus.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 54):
I also support ideas like caps on rent. I find rampant capitalism to be a destructive force. I don't mind paying taxes for services that I'll rarely use personally, if it benefits other people.

Rent control is problematic because it discourages property owners from maintaining or reinvesting in rent-controlled properties. In extreme cases it can lead to landlords simply abandoning a property that chronically loses money. If affordable housing is scarce, the proper solution is to encourage the development of more housing by removing artificial barriers to construction/development and having all taxpayers contribute to subsidizing housing. Moreover, rent control often ends up being for life (or even inherited) so those properties stay off the market forever and may have tenants who can easily afford to pay market rate for housing.

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 55):
I wish this thread would die. Anytime EAS is discussed, always comes to this type conversation. Pointless and lame.

So how come no one is complaining about the SCASD grants? More specific use of $$ but just as useless in many cases and still get federal dollars.

In the case of SCASD, the grants run for a very limited time and the service has to stand or fail on its own after that. EAS just goes on almost forever.

And in the end, air service which practically no one uses (i.e. < 10 passengers per day) really isn't all that essential.
 
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Aesma
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 5:19 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 12):
Show Low, Arizona deserves an exemption, because route 260/87, the roads to take to get to Phoenix, aren't exactly the easiest drive when a storm comes through. It does have nice scenery as you drive into the Valley though..

Flying in a Caravan during a storm is not a good idea either...

Quoting ScottB (Reply 72):
And in the end, air service which practically no one uses (i.e.

I think the main problem is right there. 10 is a ridiculously low number, there is no way it has any impact on the "community".
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 73):
Flying in a Caravan during a storm is not a good idea either...

Why? FedEx and UPS feed aircraft do it all the time, to some of the smallest, less equipped airports in the country, and make it out just fine.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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JBo
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 7:59 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 36):

MKG received funding from to the program starting in 1985 based on the communities inclusion in the original 1978 deregulation eligibility list.

There is a big difference in being eligible for funding and actually receiving funding. Just because a city is eligible for funding under the EAS program does not mean they are actively taking subsidies.

MKG may have been eligible for EAS subsidies starting in 1985, but they never started receiving subsidies until 2009.

In fact, as far back as the early 1980s, MKG profitably supported service from three regional carriers without subsidy. This dropped to two in 2002 when ZK/UA ended service to ORD, leaving YX to MKE and XJ/NW to DTW. Then when YX left town in 2008, XJ remained the sole carrier and after about a year, petitioned the DOT for EAS subsidies for MKG and several other cities where XJ was the sole carrier without subsidy. The DOT opened MKG and the other cities for bid and, in MKG's case, XJ lost out to OO/UA who has been providing service ever since.

The amount of cities who may be eligible for EAS subsidies may not change based on existing criteria, but the amount of cities actively receiving subsidies does, indeed, change.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
strfyr51
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 20):
Dude, do you even know where Adak is or how much it costs to fly out there?

It is a heavy iron airport because of the complete lack of viable alternates. It isn't a service that is going to be run with a flipping Caravan

Good Gosh Does anybody other than fishermen even Live on ADAK? I was stationed on ADAK (ADK) at the NAS.
It was a good 3 hours in a P3 up to Anchorage and Not really a fun flight at that with the winds off the mountains.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 57):
Let me ask you, have you have been to a "true" EAS city?

Probably not. I've taken advantage of EIS flights, but so far none wouldn't have been better served by subsidized bus service. Alaska is always given as an example, but if those towns are not viable, it is time to move the people to where they would be. There is so much waste in EAS. I've flown EAS flights that just shouldn't have been.

I'm an aviation fan, but the EAS system is so political it no longer serves the needs of when it was formed. The reality is that the road network and the reliability of cars/buses has so improved that too many of the cities under the system do not justify being under the system today.

Quoting michman (Reply 65):
Not even close. Take a look at all the taxes and facilities charges in airline tickets. Airline passengers are paying for a good chunk of the FAA's and airport budgets. Now take a look at the taxes and charges on Amtrak tickets. Oh, that's right. There are none. Zero, Nada, Zilch.

  

Lightsaber
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IPFreely
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat May 23, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 27):
If we use this logic, then there should also be no federal / state subsidies for mass transit in urban areas. If people choose to live in urban areas, so be it, not up to the rest of taxpayers to subsidize busses and subways for them.

Bingo. Best post you've made yet.

Consider me as a case in point. There is nothing I love more than fresh fish. But I live thousands of miles from any coast and the nearest store that flies fresh fish in daily is 40 miles away from my house. Personally I believe there should be an EFS (Essential Fish Service) government program. It could either transport fish to my town daily, or subsidize my travel to the fish store. I don't care which it does as long as you pay for it. Until that happens there is no reason for me to be paying money to have a bunch of empty busses driven around in urban areas.
 
HPRamper
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 1:08 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 72):
Rent control is problematic because it discourages property owners from maintaining or reinvesting in rent-controlled properties. In extreme cases it can lead to landlords simply abandoning a property that chronically loses money.

You're looking at the drastic negative end of it. Lack of rent control also results in what's happening in San Francisco - families being uprooted when the landlord says sorry, your rent is going from 900/mo to 3000/mo. Because I can. That's not upkeep of property, it's greed. Then again, capitalism and greed go hand in hand.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 72):
Alaska handed out $1,884 to every resident of the state in 2014. The State of Alaska can afford to subsidize its own rural air service.

...which is why I think the individual states should be funding their own EAS routes. If Alaska wants to burn their extra money on rural flight routes, so be it.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 72):
Weather is just as disruptive to air travel, if not even more. If two feet of snow falls on a small town in Montana, that runway isn't going to be cleared quickly, either. If a thunderstorm hits, you might be delayed until the next day -- and that's not true of driving or a bus.

Runways are cleared a lot faster than the only two-lane road out of town. Thunderstorms are fleeting - it's no exaggeration to say towns can be snowed in and isolated for two weeks straight. They keep the rails clear and the runways clear. Otherwise you're stuck.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 71):
where he would get on yet another EAS flight to UST. Taxpayer dollars heavily invested in that guy on that day.

UST is not an EAS location.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
b747400erf
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 42):
Most of people who are against EAS really have no clue what they are talking about.

This is a generation of kids brought up being told taxes are stealing and government has no business doing anything except paying the salaries of their friends who all want to join the military or work for a defense contractor. Everyone else outside of their bubble should be on their own like living in the old wild west. They cheer on cuts to services like EAS, or food stamps, welfare, public broadcasting, and the like while ignoring the defense budget or the fact that most of the Fortune 500 corporations pay little or no taxes. And they have spread this propaganda mostly thanks to Rupert Murdock through Australia, the UK, and now continental Europe. Germany is now a big supporter of austerity for everyone else.

You cannot reason with these people. The Constitution written by the American founders was quite clear that subsidies to a post office that served everyone no matter how expensive it was to get them was necessary, the same should translate to newer forms of transportation. Businesses in small towns are already suffering if not dead, losing air service is a great way to make sure they never get revived.

Maybe it's just a sad trick to get everyone dependent on government by making all the kids have no other choice but sign up for military service, and all the older people to get old and struggle on social security if they can live to that age. I read forums like this and all the news I can handle and it looks like people want the Hunger Games to be a reality. The future is bleak.
 
vfw614
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 80):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 71):
where he would get on yet another EAS flight to UST. Taxpayer dollars heavily invested in that guy on that day.

UST is not an EAS location.

Okay, I am going to correct myself - he connected to a SCASDP supported flight/destination:

http://www.dot.gov/policy/aviation-p...e-development-program-scasdp-grant

PS: Interesitng that places like Bradenton/Sarasota and Newport News receive grants under that scheme as well.
 
ScottB
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 79):
Lack of rent control also results in what's happening in San Francisco - families being uprooted when the landlord says sorry, your rent is going from 900/mo to 3000/mo.

The problem with San Francisco is the difficulty of developing new housing that's affordable. Oh, and by the way, San Francisco DOES have a fairly draconian rent control regime. That's a big part of why the rental housing market there is so extreme; once an apartment is under rent control, it is very unlikely to turn over to new tenants. Also, a not insignificant number of San Francisco rental units sit vacant precisely because landlords don't want to deal with tenants at meager rents.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 79):
Runways are cleared a lot faster than the only two-lane road out of town.

Perhaps the resources devoted to clearing a runway at a small-town airport would then be better devoted to clearing the road out of town more quickly. Heck, spend the EAS money to supplement the plowing budget, too. That seems more essential to maintaining the flow of goods and services into and out of a small town.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 77):
The reality is that the road network and the reliability of cars/buses has so improved that too many of the cities under the system do not justify being under the system today.

   Before the upgrades to U.S. 59/I-69 and the removal of the 55 mph national speed limit, a community like VCT could be a four-hour drive from HOU or IAH. Now the drive is a fairly easy and reliable two hours (apart from rush hour on Houston's Southwest Freeway) -- so is that air service really "essential" when almost everyone chooses to drive to a larger airport?
 
tom11
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:02 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 3:20 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 49):

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 44):
EAS carriers also move a lot of people to doctors appointments, cancer treatments, etc.

Gee, that sounds important. I bet people would pay the actual airfare for something that important.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 47):
Most of these people were born and raised in these remote places...and didn't just chose to move out to the middle of nowhere.

It doesn't matter how they got there and nobody is forcing them to stay.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 47):
There are many places that should not have air service through EAS...you are correct...but some places need it.

If they really needed the air service, there wouldn't be a subsidy.

How can you be so selfish? Do you understand how sky-high these ticket prices are anyway? Without the subsidies these people wouldn't be able to afford them. Basically, you're telling them if they want get healthcare to move away from their family and friends, and live in a city like Anchorage or Fairbanks. That's just ridiculous. I've already said that many of the cities that get EAS don't need them...but in Alaska you can't hop on the freeway and drive 12 hours to Anchorage, because there are no roads to get you there! I have no issue supporting EAS with my tax dollars, where it is needed. And in Alaska, more than anywhere else, it is needed. And to say that it's the fault of those living in these villages that they can't afford $1,000 plane tickets to get healthcare is extremely selfish.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 6:32 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
And to say that it's the fault of those living in these villages that they can't afford $1,000 plane tickets to get healthcare is extremely selfish.


What's selfish is forcing hard-working tax-payers, who may have healthcare issues of their own some of that tax money could be better spent on, to subsidize somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
Do you understand how sky-high these ticket prices are anyway?

I do, which makes the whole thing that much dumber.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
Without the subsidies these people wouldn't be able to afford them.

Without subsidies I can't afford to buy a Ferrari. What's your point?

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
Basically, you're telling them if they want get healthcare to move away from their family and friends, and live in a city like Anchorage or Fairbanks.

Sometimes limited resources means having to make decisions. Deal with it.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
That's just ridiculous.

No it's not, it's life.

Why does the taxpayer need a handful of people out in the middle of nowhere? I sure don't. If whatever they do there is so damn important (fishing I guess in this case) the people who need them there to fish can pay the bill when the inhabitants raise prices to cover what it actually costs. Otherwise it's just the taxpayer sending pork for fish sticks.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
.but in Alaska you can't hop on the freeway and drive 12 hours to Anchorage,

That's one of the problems with living in Alaska. But I can't go get salmon or crab from anywhere other than the grocery store. There are upsides and downsides to everything. Grow up, stop whining, and deal with it.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
And to say that it's the fault of those living in these villages that they can't afford $1,000 plane tickets to get healthcare is extremely selfish.

It is if they are not pricing their goods and services at a sustainable level.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
What's selfish is forcing hard-working tax-payers, who may have healthcare issues of their own some of that tax money could be better spent on, to subsidize somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.

  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
warden145
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:36 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 8:40 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 81):
This is a generation of kids brought up being told taxes are stealing and government has no business doing anything except paying the salaries of their friends who all want to join the military or work for a defense contractor. Everyone else outside of their bubble should be on their own like living in the old wild west. They cheer on cuts to services like EAS, or food stamps, welfare, public broadcasting, and the like while ignoring the defense budget or the fact that most of the Fortune 500 corporations pay little or no taxes. And they have spread this propaganda mostly thanks to Rupert Murdock through Australia, the UK, and now continental Europe. Germany is now a big supporter of austerity for everyone else.

You cannot reason with these people. The Constitution written by the American founders was quite clear that subsidies to a post office that served everyone no matter how expensive it was to get them was necessary, the same should translate to newer forms of transportation. Businesses in small towns are already suffering if not dead, losing air service is a great way to make sure they never get revived.

Maybe it's just a sad trick to get everyone dependent on government by making all the kids have no other choice but sign up for military service, and all the older people to get old and struggle on social security if they can live to that age. I read forums like this and all the news I can handle and it looks like people want the Hunger Games to be a reality. The future is bleak.

   THANK YOU!!! I learned a long time ago that people with the mindset that you described cannot be reasoned with, and there's no point in trying. They may claim to want a discussion or argument, but the truth is, they just want to push their ideological agenda and flat-out refuse to consider or even listen to any point, no matter how valid, that runs contrary to their belief structure. I generally just ignore them, and it's a shame that this forum doesn't have an "Ignore" feature like some other forums I'm a part of do.

For that matter, I've seen people join enthusiast forums solely for the purpose of pushing their ideology. They claim to have a shared interest, but they're never seen in any discussion unless they can use it as a platform to push their agenda. Unfortunately, they're usually crafty enough to technically skirt breaking any rules, so they end up not getting in trouble for it even as they poison the discussion.

As to the subject at hand...I fall into the camp of "the EAS system is abused in a number of cases, but there are also communities in remote areas of western states who genuinely need it". For those who argue that you can always leave a remote community if it proves to be too remote for you, that is easier said than done. First, it takes money to move...money that some people just plain don't have. Second, if your entire family lives in that remote town and you've lived there all of your life, it's rather difficult to abandon that support structure even if it makes financial sense to do so, assuming you could afford to in the first place.

Very few things are as cut-and-dried as some people like to make them out to be...
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
BMI727
Posts: 11300
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 9:07 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 87):
I learned a long time ago that people with the mindset that you described cannot be reasoned with, and there's no point in trying.

Oh you can, but you just don't want to. It requires you to fly in the face of reality and will leave you looking like an idiot. It's the same as religious fundamentalists who, when faced with realities that don't fit their worldview, will just write off the messenger as being an infidel or under the influence of the devil.

There are issues where the liberal perspective can at least offer a reasonable argument. EAS is not one of them. EAS is very cut and dry.

You can't say that it is needed, because if it were needed the people who need it would be willing to pay for it at a level to make it sustainable.

But they aren't.

Because it isn't needed.

Quoting warden145 (Reply 87):
First, it takes money to move...money that some people just plain don't have.

So they don't have money to leave, but they have money to pay the still not insignificant fares associated with EAS flights?   




Quoting warden145 (Reply 87):
Second, if your entire family lives in that remote town and you've lived there all of your life, it's rather difficult to abandon that support structure

I've got family scattered across the country. When's the government going to cut me a check to go see them?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Skywatcher
Posts: 803
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2002 11:19 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 10:00 pm

My opinions range from conservative to liberal and everything in between on a whole range of issues. In this specific case (EAS) I just can't see any rationale that justifies it except that it benefits very few people who save a bit of time and gas in return for a program that costs millions.
It's not even really costing taxpayers money since I would argue that it is being financed largely by new debt. It's actually our grandchildren that will be paying for this ridiculous waste. Take a bus!
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 74):
Quoting Aesma (Reply 73):
Flying in a Caravan during a storm is not a good idea either...

Why? FedEx and UPS feed aircraft do it all the time, to some of the smallest, less equipped airports in the country, and make it out just fine.

The Caravan hasn't had the best reputation for flight in icing conditions. I think some accidents have resulted.

Related 2010 article re modifications to FedEx Caravans.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...nics-update-planned-fedex-caravans
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11849
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun May 24, 2015 10:48 pm

Unlike BMI727 I'm not a staunch liberal (real sense of the word, not US sense), I'm rather Keynesian, and support social programs, and even transportation subsidies, it's just that some of those EAS criteria seem far fetched. They seem to benefit the happy few, not the overall "communities", as claimed.

France has a parts of its territory on every corner of the planet (Europe, North America, South America, Caribbean, Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean...), and does subsidize all kinds of travel means to them, planes, trains, coaches, ships, you name it, but there is nothing resembling EAS.

More importantly a significant chunk of these subsidies are given to people, not transport companies, on condition of limited resources. So poor people are helped, people that can afford to travel aren't.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4013
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 6:58 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 72):

Alaska is facing a 3 billion dollar budget shortfall this year. But keep talking about what AK can afford. The PFD is based solely on the stock market at this point and the fund has gone up in the last few years. It doesn't mean they state can freely access it.
 
User avatar
antoniemey
Posts: 1400
Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:38 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.

Did you choose where you were born and raised?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 86):
Sometimes limited resources means having to make decisions. Deal with it.

And sometimes limited resources means not being able to leave the backwater you were raised in even if you wanted to.



There ARE communities that need air service and for which air service would be unsustainable without some form of subsidy. Are all EAS communities in that group? No. Is a better system needed? Probably. But are there much worse wastes of money that need to be dealt with before we start denying people in large states with low population density easy access to air travel? Definitely.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
 
tom11
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:02 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):

What's selfish is forcing hard-working tax-payers, who may have healthcare issues of their own some of that tax money could be better spent on, to subsidize somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.

Again...where is there a choice here? I didn't chose were I was born and grew up. Many of these people can't afford to just get up leave the life they've known, especially when they would be leaving all of their friends and family behind.

You forget, though, that many of these people (living in Remote Alaska) are hard working tax-payers as well.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3799
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 4:50 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 91):
France has a parts of its territory on every corner of the planet (Europe, North America, South America, Caribbean, Indian Ocean, Pacific Ocean...), and does subsidize all kinds of travel means to them, planes, trains, coaches, ships, you name it, but there is nothing resembling EAS.

Well, there are roughly 20 designated PSO routes between cities in mainland France (i.e. non-island, non-DOMTOM routes), plus some international routes from Strasbourg (what the heck...?). Taxpayer's money at work as well.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 4:51 pm

I flew on Sun Air International's Piper PA-31-350, an eight-seat, twin-engined puddle jumper, on IAH-VCT-IAH to see my [then] girlfriend. As it was my first time flying EAS (not bush flying, though--I had done some of that previously in Dixie, Idaho) it was definitely a very unique experience.

So sad to see Victoria lose air service once again...

-LPDAL

[Edited 2015-05-25 10:11:25]
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
User avatar
atypical
Posts: 797
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 83):
The problem with San Francisco is the difficulty of developing new housing that's affordable. Oh, and by the way, San Francisco DOES have a fairly draconian rent control regime. That's a big part of why the rental housing market there is so extreme; once an apartment is under rent control, it is very unlikely to turn over to new tenants. Also, a not insignificant number of San Francisco rental units sit vacant precisely because landlords don't want to deal with tenants at meager rents.

Absolutely. Unlike EAS, which encourages airlines to participate, RC can hit a property owner very hard. The properties most effected by RC are those that can least afford it. If a city decides that there isn't enough housing at a certain price the city needs to build and own it. Cities with RC don't want that headache and cost for themselves but want property owners to take that function. Of all functions that government is best suited for they are passing it off to others.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4013
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting atypical (Reply 97):
If a city decides that there isn't enough housing at a certain price the city needs to build and own it.

Because projects work out so well.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 6:42 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 93):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.

Did you choose where you were born and raised?


Nope, but I certainly chose where I live.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 93):
And sometimes limited resources means not being able to leave the backwater you were raised in even if you wanted to.


Then you likely won't be spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars on EAS tickets either.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 94):
Many of these people can't afford to just get up leave the life they've known


And again, those people will likely not be spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars every year on tax payer-subsidized EAS tickets and your dependence on the program is nil.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 94):
especially when they would be leaving all of their friends and family behind.


I don't care. I did it, and other people do it all the time. Young people move for work, families move to pursue better opportunities and old people leave their friends and family to retire in sunny Florida. One's emotional needs are not and should not be the concern of the tax payer.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 94):
You forget, though, that many of these people (living in Remote Alaska) are hard working tax-payers as well.

Obviously not tax-paying enough if they need the feds to come in with other people's money to subsidize their air service.

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