32andBelow
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 6:45 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 99):
Obviously not tax-paying enough if they need the feds to come in with other people's money to subsidize their air service.

The point of taxes isn't to just take your tax money and repave the street right in front of your house.
 
BMI727
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:06 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 93):
There ARE communities that need air service and for which air service would be unsustainable without some form of subsidy.

If it's unsustainable without a subsidy (i.e. unsustainable) then they don't need it. If it was really needed that badly there would be no need for a subsidy. They don't care enough to pay what it costs, so as a taxpayer I don't care enough either.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 92):
But are there much worse wastes of money that need to be dealt with before we start denying people in large states with low population density easy access to air travel?

Access to air travel will be as easy as they're willing to pay for it to be.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 94):
Many of these people can't afford to just get up leave the life they've known, especially when they would be leaving all of their friends and family behind.

What the hell is going on in these little outposts that it is so damn important for taxpayers to make sure there are people there at all? The people who actually need these places inhabited should be the ones picking up the tab.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 94):
You forget, though, that many of these people (living in Remote Alaska) are hard working tax-payers as well.

   If they don't have the money to leave their backwater village then they aren't going to be paying much, if anything, in taxes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:17 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
What the hell is going on in these little outposts that it is so damn important for taxpayers to make sure there are people there at all? The people who actually need these places inhabited should be the ones picking up the tab.

Maybe once you outgrow your teenage selfish, nobody but me years, you will understand it. Why should people be forced to move from their homelands, simply because some kid, who probably has never paid a dime in his life in taxes, is a little brat about it. So what that they get EAS. You want to save money, there are 10s of thousands of other, higher dollar pork projects that need attacked first.

Get out the city and maybe you'll understand it

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
BMI727
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:36 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):

You didn't answer the question.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
Why should people be forced to move from their homelands

Nobody is forcing them to move anywhere. They just have to deal with the advantages and disadvantages of where they choose to live. If you want all of the amenities of the modern world you can either pay for them or go to where they are available at lower costs.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
who probably has never paid a dime in his life in taxes

You either don't know what the hell you're talking about or you've been misreading my pay stubs. I promise you it's way more than a dime.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
You want to save money, there are 10s of thousands of other, higher dollar pork projects that need attacked first.

I'm pretty vocal about those too, if you didn't notice.

EAS isn't the biggest waste out there, but it is one of the most clear cut.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
Get out the city and maybe you'll understand it

Get out of the city? I grew up in a tiny town. You know how people say they grew up in a small town with two stoplights? Well mine had no stoplights. Where I live now I can't buy a ranch house with a garage and a yard for $100k, but I have three Walmarts within ten miles, so like everything it's a trade.

But, since you brought it up, settle in son and let me tell you a little story.

The town where I grew up, like most such towns, didn't have much healthcare infrastructure. Now it wasn't a huge issue since it meant a 20-30 mile trip for a primary care physician and 40-50 for pretty much any specialist you might need. But people wanted to do something about it so thirty years ago or so the city offered an office free of charge to a doctor to come practice there. The husband and wife who took them up on the offer are still in town with a new office and expanded practice.

So if these little towns really think it's a problem they can address these things.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
flyguy89
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:37 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
Why should people be forced to move from their homelands.


Why should they be subsidized by federal tax payers to live there? It would have been easier for me to stay in my home town rather than be "forced" to move to pursue better opportunities, where's my subsidy?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 102):
So what that they get EAS. You want to save money, there are 10s of thousands of other, higher dollar pork projects that need attacked first.

Because all the little things add up: a few hundred million here, a billion there, another million here...etc. And they all have their pet constituencies defending them.

[Edited 2015-05-25 16:58:03]
 
32andBelow
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:44 pm

Because this is America and we made a big point to spread out and take all the land. Now we need to maintain it.
 
flyguy89
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon May 25, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 105):
Because this is America

Ah, makes total sense now, then it must be logical. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 105):
we made a big point to spread out and take all the land.

...which was accomplished without air travel.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 105):
Now we need to maintain it.

To what benefit?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
Why should they be subsidized by federal tax payers to live there? It would have been easier for me to stay in my home town rather than be "forced" to move to pursue better opportunities, where's my subsidy?

Why should my tax dollars pay for you to live in Vegas?

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 3:56 am

LOL I am amazed that this thread is still open seeing as how un aviation related it has become. Just as how every thread about an EAS event becomes......
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flyguy89
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 107):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 104):
Why should they be subsidized by federal tax payers to live there? It would have been easier for me to stay in my home town rather than be "forced" to move to pursue better opportunities, where's my subsidy?

Why should my tax dollars pay for you to live in Vegas?

Exactly.

...or Butte, MT or Kingman, AZ or Silver City, NM or Adak, AK...etc.
 
cbphoto
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 81):
This is a generation of kids brought up being told taxes are stealing and government has no business doing anything except paying the salaries of their friends who all want to join the military or work for a defense contractor. Everyone else outside of their bubble should be on their own like living in the old wild west. They cheer on cuts to services like EAS, or food stamps, welfare, public broadcasting, and the like while ignoring the defense budget or the fact that most of the Fortune 500 corporations pay little or no taxes. And they have spread this propaganda mostly thanks to Rupert Murdock through Australia, the UK, and now continental Europe. Germany is now a big supporter of austerity for everyone else.

You cannot reason with these people. The Constitution written by the American founders was quite clear that subsidies to a post office that served everyone no matter how expensive it was to get them was necessary, the same should translate to newer forms of transportation. Businesses in small towns are already suffering if not dead, losing air service is a great way to make sure they never get revived.

         Could not have said it better myself!! It's sad, yet true. One of the many issues facing this country is everyone's selfish attitudes. It's all about them, and no longer about the good of the country and the nation.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 85):
What's selfish is forcing hard-working tax-payers, who may have healthcare issues of their own some of that tax money could be better spent on, to subsidize somebody's choice to live at the ends of the earth.

What's selfish is for you to claim you are paying for the EAS system when in reality you likely are not. Again, it's well known in the EAS system that EAS funding comes aviation and general aviation taxes and user fees. It's the rich Doctors and business men and women who fly and fill up their Bonanza or Cirrus that support the system. Sure, some of it comes from other taxes collected by the FAA, but it's cents to the dollar that you may actually be contributing.

And you also could say it's selfish to force hard-working tax payers, who may have health issues to pay for the defense budget, especially when they are likely never going to the travel to Iraq or Afghanistan to visit? Yet all of us hard-working Americans (myself included) have to support that. And frankly, I would rather my tax dollars go towards making this country better and supporting our smaller communities, then spending billions on being the international peace keeping force we are. But you don't see me lobbying to get rid of the military, do you??
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tom11
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 9:06 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):

What the hell is going on in these little outposts that it is so damn important for taxpayers to make sure there are people there at all? The people who actually need these places inhabited should be the ones picking up the tab.

Talking about Alaska, I'd say there is certainly fishing, oil, amongst other things.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 101):
If it's unsustainable without a subsidy (i.e. unsustainable) then they don't need it. If it was really needed that badly there would be no need for a subsidy. They don't care enough to pay what it costs, so as a taxpayer I don't care enough either.

Don't need it? There is NO OTHER way to access some of these Alaskan villages and towns, without air service! Of course they need it! This is not like some of these other EAS cities where they can hop on the freeway and drive 6 or 7 hours to a specialist if they need to. I'm against most of the other EAS cities, where driving is an option. But in Alaska, driving is many times not an option. Making these people splurge their life savings to afford a trip to the doctor isn't fair, in my opinion.
 
stratacruiser
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 9:20 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 50):
Good. Trust Fund money is better spent on infrastructure. Wanna live in a small town in the middle of nowhere? Take a bus.

Oh wait....those are largely gone from rural America as well.

Dave
 
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LAXintl
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue May 26, 2015 10:42 pm

Jamestown NY has appealed. They state DOT used incorrect boarding totals and believe they instead averaged 11.43 passengers per day.

I wonder if the airports higher counts include non-revs versus DOT revenue only counts?
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BMI727
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting tom11 (Reply 111):
Talking about Alaska, I'd say there is certainly fishing, oil, amongst other things.

Then they better make sure that they get paid enough to do those things that staying in their remote outpost is sustainable. Figuring in the costs of transportation is not that difficult, plenty of oil and mining companies charter flights to their remote locations on a regular basis.

Now it is possible that say, diners won't see the benefit in salmon from a cut off Alaskan village versus salmon from a farm and not support those prices. If that happens, then that's tough but that's life. Just ask the North Dakota oil workers who got laid off.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 111):
There is NO OTHER way to access some of these Alaskan villages and towns, without air service!

And yet they're still unwilling to pay for it. If they need it, they'll find a way to pay for it. Saying they don't need it is not my opinion, it's currently economic fact evidenced by the unwillingness of the inhabitants of remote areas to pay sustainable prices for service.

And like I said before, there is no fundamental reason why the taxpayer needs these places need to be inhabited at all. Whomever needs people in such locations should be the one to pay for keeping people in such locations.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 110):
One of the many issues facing this country is everyone's selfish attitudes. It's all about them, and no longer about the good of the country and the nation.

...because the last thing every immigrant said as they got on the boat with all of their worldly possessions was "I'm going to America to make America great and provide for the good of the nation!"  
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
tom11
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 2:42 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):

And yet they're still unwilling to pay for it. If they need it, they'll find a way to pay for it. Saying they don't need it is not my opinion, it's currently economic fact evidenced by the unwillingness of the inhabitants of remote areas to pay sustainable prices for service.

And like I said before, there is no fundamental reason why the taxpayer needs these places need to be inhabited at all. Whomever needs people in such locations should be the one to pay for keeping people in such locations.

I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with the fact that they are unwilling to pay for it, and everything to do with the fact that they can't afford to pay for it. Your argument thus far has been that if they can't afford it, than they don't need it. But for people that 'can't afford' food we offer them food stamps, no? I would argue one of the main reasons people are traveling to/from these remote locations is to get health care, which is certainly a necessity, like food.

If there was another way for these people to get to a city like Anchorage or Fairbanks like roads or trains, then I wouldn't support EAS service there. But there isn't another way. If we took EAS out of all the places that don't need it (most of the continental US) it would bring the EAS budget way down, and cost tax payers much less. If that was the scenario, would you be more willing to support EAS in Alaska where there is certainly a greater need for it?

[Edited 2015-05-26 19:44:33]

[Edited 2015-05-26 19:45:02]
 
cbphoto
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 117):
If it receives federal tax dollars, then tax payers are helping to pay for it.

Define tax payers? If the tax comes from a taxation on a purchase on aviation gas and you don't purchase the aviation gas, how are you contributing to it? Many items are taxed and those tax dollars go to a specific program or the other, but if I don't purchase that item that is taxed, I am not directly contributing to it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
..because the last thing every immigrant said as they got on the boat with all of their worldly possessions was "I'm going to America to make America great and provide for the good of the nation!"

Yeah, because when the Americans fought the revolutionary war, or in World War I and II, I bet they were all thinking "I'm fighting this war for myself?"  
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32andBelow
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 4:35 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 114):
Then they better make sure that they get paid enough to do those things that staying in their remote outpost is sustainable. Figuring in the costs of transportation is not that difficult, plenty of oil and mining companies charter flights to their remote locations on a regular basis.

Now it is possible that say, diners won't see the benefit in salmon from a cut off Alaskan village versus salmon from a farm and not support those prices. If that happens, then that's tough but that's life. Just ask the North Dakota oil workers who got laid off.

We took all their land to rape it's natural resources. Now we throw them a bone every once in a while to repay them. Wait until this guy finds out that all native Alaskans get completely free health care. Next, you act like this tickets are free. They still pay what you pay to fly across the US after their subsidy.
 
flyguy89
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 7:04 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 118):
Define tax payers?

Just that, anyone who pays federal income tax. In addition to purchasers of plane tickets, employees of airlines and their related fields, the AATF also receives monies from the General Fund.

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 119):
Now we throw them a bone every once in a while to repay them.

So this about "throwing them a bone" then? Sounds like a judicious use of tax payer dollars indeed.
 
tom11
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 117):

And again, I can't afford first class tickets to Europe, can I get a subsidy?

They sure aren't flying first class...I'm not sure if any part of a Cessna Caravan feels first class. The point is these people really aren't traveling for leisure, they are traveling for medical reasons a lot of time time. And as I've mentioned time and time again, the only way for them to get out of their villages is on an airplane. If I took all the roads out of your town, then wanted to charge you $5,000 for a ticket in a Grand Caravan just to get out of your town, you might appreciate some help from your fellow citizens.
 
32andBelow
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 7:21 pm

Again these tickets in Alaska EAS are like 300-1200 dollars They are not free.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Wed May 27, 2015 7:37 pm

Well at least Greenville,MS will de done IMO. If SeaPort wants out just after starting, can't see anyone ever scheduling flights there again lol.
Riddle: Which lasts longer, a start-up airline or a start-up football league?
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Thu May 28, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting milesrich (Reply 10):
Good Post. EAS is only ESSENTIAL for towns that are three hours away from the nearest airport. Jamestown, NY certainly doesn't need the service. Macon, GA is another ridiculous EAS city, or it was. MCN is south of Macon and probably a 20 minute drive from downtown Macon. ATL is no more than 60 to 75 minutes from the whole Macon area, that is when they get the lanes added to I-75, because of the awful traffic in Henry County. Much of the Atlanta suburbs are 60 minutes from ATL.

And add to that list VIS...37 miles to FAT, 65 miles to BFL..Another waste of tax dollars..just for community egos.
 
32andBelow
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Thu May 28, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 124):
...then why do people keep saying that they can't leave?

Because there would not be a carrier in these places if there wasn't EAS.
 
L-188
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Thu May 28, 2015 5:07 am

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 76):


Good Gosh Does anybody other than fishermen even Live on ADAK? I was stationed on ADAK (ADK) at the NAS.
It was a good 3 hours in a P3 up to Anchorage and Not really a fun flight at that with the winds off the mountains.

Pretty much is an Aleut Corporation processing plant operation now. I pulled the last of the Navy off of it in 1997 when I was working for Reeve.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 90):
The Caravan hasn't had the best reputation for flight in icing conditions

Oh, no it does not.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 116):
Of course BMI wouldn't, he's a spoiled little teenage brat that thinks he knows everything about the world.

A bit below the belt but there is truth there. It is hard to argue with someone who won't appreciate the other persons view
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LAXintl
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:14 pm

Mason City has filed an appeal.

They state the transition of carriers from Great Lakes to Air Choice One during 2014 and Great Lakes previous history of multiple cancellations were large factors in the airport falling below 10-enplanements per day.
They believe with solid operation Air Choice One has been operating, the enplanement numbers going forward would return and exceed the required 10 per day on average.
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tom11
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 125):
Mason City has filed an appeal.

They state the transition of carriers from Great Lakes to Air Choice One during 2014 and Great Lakes previous history of multiple cancellations were large factors in the airport falling below 10-enplanements per day.
They believe with solid operation Air Choice One has been operating, the enplanement numbers going forward would return and exceed the required 10 per day on average.

They are 2 hours from MSP and 2 hours from DSM. They don't need EAS.
 
mtnwest1979
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:48 am

I guess I must be in the minority here.
Seems to me that any member on this site would be for expanding and increasing the reach of scheduled air service in any location even if it is a relatively minor amount of money ( as the EAS program is, in the whole sceme of things).
I would be more than happy to pay $100/yr to know that, if I want or need to, could fly scheduled service to Kirksville,MO whenever the mood struck me.
The EAS is not just to serve the people in those areas, but also the few that travel to there, for whatever reason.

On another note, it seems that the main emphasis here on airlinesr.net has lost its way and is too bitchy and political for my taste anymore. So I can't wait for my 34 days to come and bye bye a.net.

Have a great day!  

Edited to correct number of days.

[Edited 2015-06-06 18:49:50]
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lightsaber
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:47 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 83):
so is that air service really "essential" when almost everyone chooses to drive to a larger airport?

Exactly. For most it is a drive. I would like to know what are the true EAS cities. Not a general description, but an airport code list of those cities that are more than a 4 hour drive from a significant airport. I'll even accept 4 hours on a typical winter day. I'd like to see such a list of cities that might qualify as a 'true EAS' city.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 84):
Do you understand how sky-high these ticket prices are anyway? Without the subsidies these people wouldn't be able to afford them. Basically, you're telling them if they want get healthcare to move away from their family and friends, and live in a city like Anchorage or Fairbanks.

Out of curiosity, wouldn't an air-taxi service be cheaper in the long run? The threshold is pretty darn low. But here is the irony, if you take away the subsidy, the remaining service would balance out. Probably with less frequency.

If its just Alaska, why isn't the state paying for the service with the surplus from the oil revenue? I'm having trouble understanding why Alaska needs the lower 48 to subsidize them. A state program would be far more efficient than a Federal program too. Probably more effective in the long run.

I personally wouldn't live far from a doctor. I have two young kids who each need a 'rush visit' to a doctor about once a year: ear aches, pneumonia, and despite full vaccination, one of the vaccinated diseases where the vaccine is only 85% effective. Although with the partial immunity given by the vaccine, it was a trivial disease compared to an anti-vacc individual. I know one individual who had the disease and didn't even realize it for over a month (thanks to a vaccination program that was almost good enough) until I pointed out the diagnosis... that person traveled to Alaska while contagious, on an EAS flight (oops).

Quoting tom11 (Reply 126):
They are 2 hours from MSP and 2 hours from DSM. They don't need EAS.

Exactly. That is just wasted money. Mason city might win the appeal, which is a sad fact...

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 127):
Seems to me that any member on this site would be for expanding and increasing the reach of scheduled air service in any location even if it is a relatively minor amount of money ( as the EAS program is, in the whole sceme of things).

Why have it expanded in a non-sustainable fashion? I'd rather see new fees to expand impacted airports (LAX, SFO, ORD, JFK, EWR, ATL, MIA, and a few others).

A.net has always been very political. Sorry to see you go. Every lost user is a lost perspective. But the reality is that air travel is up-gauging. So unless a community is able to support larger airframes, it is likely to lose commercial service. If GA is able to make up the slack, that is good enough. I would like to see a rationalization of GA rules to help that grow to fill the gap.

Lightsaber
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Cubsrule
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:55 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):
Exactly. That is just wasted money. Mason city might win the appeal, which is a sad fact...

Let me offer some counterpoint here. All of us are subsidized by the government in some form. For those in large cities, it's often mass transit. Here in Tennessee, we have a tremendous number of government employees contributing to our tax base. I don't see anything particularly repugnant about subsidy via EAS as opposed to in some other way.

If we can accept that premise (at least for the sake of the discussion), then it's not hard to sympathize with MCW and other cities with enplanement problems. The 10 PDEW requirement assumed a certain level of reliability, as when DOT imposed it, there wasn't anyone with the issues of some of the recent EAS carriers. Heck, ZK ran a better operation even 5 years ago than it does now.

As a practical, political matter, EAS isn't going away. The argument about whether it should exist at all is different from the argument about whether cities ought to be in it.
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:21 am

Quoting tom11 (Reply 126):
They are 2 hours from MSP and 2 hours from DSM. They don't need EAS.

Except for when, you know, it's difficult and/or dangerous to get to MSP or DSM...

"Need" is a very subjective word. There's a difference between needing something and deserving something. Take Farmer Bill for example. He lives near MCW and owns a thousand acres of land - fertile land that the world's population needs to live off of. EAS allows Farmer Bill the opportunity for air service that is within a reasonable driving distance of his home. This is the 21st century. Shouldn't we be progressing? Is it so unreasonable that Farmer Bill has access to local air service through a subsidy that the aviation community pays for? Keep in mind that Farmer Bill has already paid his taxes, and some of that money went to transportation projects in urban areas that he will never use. What's fair here?

You get a different perspective on EAS when you actually use it. I liked the NWA Airlink service out of MCW and paid more for it. I don't like subsidizing services in general, but EAS is one that you can't complain much about when the urbanites get massive amounts of general funds, some of that from rural taxpayers that will never use it.
 
IPFreely
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 130):
Except for when, you know, it's difficult and/or dangerous to get to MSP or DSM...

There are many times of day when you can drive from MCW to MSP faster than you can drive from the NW Minneapolis suburbs to MSP.

If MCW wants commercial air service it should be paid for by the people who fly to and from MCW. If there aren't enough to support it then it needs to go away. MCW is a perfect example of what is wrong with EAS.
 
kalvado
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:27 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 128):

Exactly. For most it is a drive. I would like to know what are the true EAS cities. Not a general description, but an airport code list of those cities that are more than a 4 hour drive from a significant airport. I'll even accept 4 hours on a typical winter day. I'd like to see such a list of cities that might qualify as a 'true EAS' city.

Once upon a time CNN had an interesting article on International Falls, MN - airport code INL is not even recognized by a.net
Looks like one of few examples, where air service is really essential.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3437
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 131):
There are many times of day when you can drive from MCW to MSP faster than you can drive from the NW Minneapolis suburbs to MSP.

If MCW wants commercial air service it should be paid for by the people who fly to and from MCW. If there aren't enough to support it then it needs to go away. MCW is a perfect example of what is wrong with EAS.

If you're stuck two hours in traffic to travel from a suburb to MSP, then it's probably your fault. It's not the same comparison. You can find another route/time, and even go slow doing it in poor weather. We rural folks don't have that option.

Public transit riders only pay for a fraction of the operating (not total) cost of the service. Clearly the demand is not there for that either. Clearly the people using it are not paying the cost of it. Do we cut that too? There is nothing "wrong" with EAS that isn't also "wrong" with every other public transit option.

And it should be noted that it's not MCW's fault that the airlines have dropped the ball and failed to provide reliable service. It started with DL and festered with ZK. We'd be getting a lot more for the EAS money if the airlines had done what they promised.

[Edited 2015-06-07 12:45:55]
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5466
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133):
Public transit riders only pay for a fraction of the operating (not total) cost of the service.

But the subsidy for operating public transit comes almost solely from state/local government subsidies, not Federal. The Federal Transit Administration mainly gives out grants for capital projects like building a new rail line or buying buses.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133):
There is nothing "wrong" with EAS that isn't also "wrong" with every other public transit option.

Well, I would argue that EAS is mostly just subsidizing wealthy people who want more convenience, while mass transit provides benefits to all. Even with EAS subsidies, most people wouldn't be able to afford to fly out of these small markets. So, the reality of EAS service is that the benefits are really only to those wealthy enough to buy expensive plane tickets.
 
lpdal
Posts: 1961
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 134):
So, the reality of EAS service is that the benefits are really only to those wealthy enough to buy expensive plane tickets.

In my experience, when I flew IAH-VCT-IAH (Victoria, Texas as mentioned in the OP), the tickets were actually the cheapest "full service" tickets I had ever bought. I say full service because despite the fact that the plane was an amenity-bare Piper PA-31-350, Sun Air International, at the time, charged no ancillary fees--no change fees and no checked baggage fees.

The tickets were the cheapest I've ever purchased in a long while--only $43.75 each way, $87.50 in total. I was amazed as I was paying for the tickets at how cheap they were.

And flying on a Piper P-31 is just an experience that can't be beat. At 37.2 years old, N7090B was and still is the oldest plane in my log, next to a 36-year-old-now-scrapped UA 727.


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DiamondFlyer
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:58 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 135):
And flying on a Piper P-31 is just an experience that can't be beat. At 37.2 years old, N7090B was and still is the oldest plane in my log, next to a 36-year-old-now-scrapped UA 727.

It's a PA-31, and thankfully, they've moved to a bigger airplane on the route. My opinion is that the piston airplanes, while cheap to operate, are ultimately the reason that EAS fails in this extreme markets.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting gdg9 (Reply 21):
As they should. EAS is a complete waste of money and should be ended today. If people choose to live in rural areas so be it, not up to the rest of the taxpayers to subsidize flights for them. Drive.

Believe it or not, there's more to a livable society than mere economic efficiency. Preserving community cohesion is important, too, even for communities off the beaten path. If maintaining air service necessary for them to maintain their community cohesion while still being a part of the wider world is so cost-ineffective as to be prohibitive for them to pay for it out of their own pockets, then it absolutely is society as a whole's obligation to subsidize them.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 216
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 134):
But the subsidy for operating public transit comes almost solely from state/local government subsidies, not Federal. The Federal Transit Administration mainly gives out grants for capital projects like building a new rail line or buying buses.

You seem to be okay with this.

So my question is, why does it matter? What's the meaningful difference? Why is it inherently better to have these things subsidized at the state-level rather than federally?
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4011
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 138):
You seem to be okay with this.

So my question is, why does it matter? What's the meaningful difference? Why is it inherently better to have these things subsidized at the state-level rather than federally?

Also a lot of the routes cross state lines, so that has to be managed by the feds.
 
richierich
Posts: 3591
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:54 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 23):
In my opinion EAS shouldn't be a federal subsidy - it should be left to each individual state to decide if they want to subsidize flying to their own remote towns. I would think if it were coming out of their own state treasury, they'd be more selective as to who gets service

Damn right - it would go into the general state fund and be used for welfare vouchers and bus passes.
None shall pass!!!!
 
jc2354
Posts: 608
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 9:56 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:16 pm

Isn't Midway Island, although owned by the US Dept of Wildlife, maintained by Boeing? Isn't it required to allow the 777 ETOPS certification? I bring this up because I was under the impression that Adak was maintained for the same reason. I had no idea it was actually EAS. Maybe some type of relationship with Boeing would be more advantageous. A relationship with Boeing would have to better than EAS with the government.

Is mail, government contracts, required to use the services of EAS airlines?

What always hocks me off about EAS, is how the airlines take advantage of it, and eventually screws the passengers. I remember back at the original Frontier Airlines (the flying F) days, they were charging exorbitant airfares to those passengers. Even at Adak, the fares are ridiculous. Taken from the Alaska and Delta website, one way, unrestricted, and mileage:
Anchorage-Adak 1190sm $705.00 non-stop Alaska Air
Anchorage-Seattle 1447sm $565.00 non-stop Alaska Air
Anchorage-Minneapolis 2514sm $720.50 nonstop Delta Airlines
If not now, then when?
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:31 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 141):
What always hocks me off about EAS, is how the airlines take advantage of it, and eventually screws the passengers.
Quoting jc2354 (Reply 141):
What always hocks me off about EAS, is how the airlines take advantage of it, and eventually screws the passengers. I remember back at the original Frontier Airlines (the flying F) days, they were charging exorbitant airfares to those passengers. Even at Adak, the fares are ridiculous. Taken from the Alaska and Delta website, one way, unrestricted, and mileage:
Anchorage-Adak 1190sm $705.00 non-stop Alaska Air

I've flown Anchorage-Adak on Alaska. When you're flying 4 containers, sometimes full sometimes not, and 25-50 passengers on a 737-400 on a 2 hour 45 minute flight, paying for crew/staff at both ends, twice a week, it adds up. I don't see this as "taking advantage." It's called breaking even.
Trikes are for kids!
 
ScottB
Posts: 6641
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RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:42 pm

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 138):
Why is it inherently better to have these things subsidized at the state-level rather than federally?

Because people tend to be a lot more judicious with spending their own money than other people's money. If local/state taxes had to be used to fund EAS, far more consideration would be given as to whether that service is "essential."

It's akin to how certain projects are sold with the disclaimer that "no local taxes will be used to fund this."

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 130):
Except for when, you know, it's difficult and/or dangerous to get to MSP or DSM...

Except that at those times, which are probably fewer than a dozen days a year, it's also difficult and/or dangerous to FLY to MSP or DSM. And it's not necessarily clear that the American public is well-served by spending over a million dollars a year because a handful of people might be inconvenienced a few days a year.

If the only concern is access to the national transportation network, it would be far more cost-effective to just subsidize bus service from small communities to large airports.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133):
Public transit riders only pay for a fraction of the operating (not total) cost of the service. Clearly the demand is not there for that either. Clearly the people using it are not paying the cost of it.

Public transit is typically subsidized because (1) that is viewed as being less costly than the expense of building enough road/highway infrastructure to carry the traffic, (2) it can help connect lower-wage people to employment, and (3) it can help improve environmental quality by taking cars off the road.

But the comparison is inexact because many subsidized public transit systems do indeed see heavy usage. I see less of an issue with transportation subsidies (including EAS, by the way) when that mode of transportation is actually used. Spending over a million dollars a year for service which is used by only a handful of people per days is just wasteful -- it's not "essential" if almost no one uses it.
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 3437
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:48 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:49 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 134):
But the subsidy for operating public transit comes almost solely from state/local government subsidies, not Federal. The Federal Transit Administration mainly gives out grants for capital projects like building a new rail line or buying buses.

Without federal money, the projects don't get built in the first place. Without federal money, the air service doesn't happen in the first place. I don't see much a difference.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 134):
Well, I would argue that EAS is mostly just subsidizing wealthy people who want more convenience, while mass transit provides benefits to all. Even with EAS subsidies, most people wouldn't be able to afford to fly out of these small markets. So, the reality of EAS service is that the benefits are really only to those wealthy enough to buy expensive plane tickets.

I'm not wealthy by any means and have benefited from EAS. Meanwhile I get no benefit from mass transit that I pay for. Now we're going off into the political end. It's not the government's job to pick and choose who benefits from transportation projects. The point is for all to have access that they wouldn't have otherwise.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 4011
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:26 pm

Quoting atct (Reply 142):
I've flown Anchorage-Adak on Alaska. When you're flying 4 containers, sometimes full sometimes not, and 25-50 passengers on a 737-400 on a 2 hour 45 minute flight, paying for crew/staff at both ends, twice a week, it adds up. I don't see this as "taking advantage." It's called breaking even.

Fun fact. TSA flies TSA agents out on every flight to do the screening. Since it is 121 regs to such a small place. TSA was talking about some sort of reverse screening exemption for the flight.
 
BerenErchamion
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 12:44 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:34 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 143):
Because people tend to be a lot more judicious with spending their own money than other people's money.

What a nonsense distinction. It's not "their own" versus "other people's" money--it's all society's money.
 
ScottB
Posts: 6641
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting BerenErchamion (Reply 146):
It's not "their own" versus "other people's" money--it's all society's money.

Which is a completely nonsensical attitude. Why care at all about how much government spends? Just spend on everything because "it's all society's money."
 
IPFreely
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:07 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 133):
And it should be noted that it's not MCW's fault that the airlines have dropped the ball and failed to provide reliable service. It started with DL and festered with ZK. We'd be getting a lot more for the EAS money if the airlines had done what they promised.

Gotta love a good victim mentality. It's not good enough that the government takes money from other people and spends it on them for no particular reason. But privately owned for-profit businesses should forget about profit and serve them as well. Time to occupy something!
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: 4 Cities Ejected From EAS Program By DOT

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 148):
Gotta love a good victim mentality. It's not good enough that the government takes money from other people and spends it on them for no particular reason. But privately owned for-profit businesses should forget about profit and serve them as well. Time to occupy something!

Well..the government is giving it back to these communities in the form of air service, not necessarily on themselves.

And who said anything about for-profit businesses should forget about profit? The airlines that serve these EAS places get money per seat, regardless if that seat is occupied or not. ZK has made profits for a many years just on EAS alone. Delta pulled out of a lot of these markets when they retired the Saab and found it was uneconomical to continue operations with the CRJ.
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