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flaps30
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Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:16 am

This airline and this particular route has intrigued me for some time. Why does SATA fly this route? Is there some historical connection between these 2 cities or this region? Does this A310 do the route non-stop?
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29erUSA187
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
This airline and this particular route has intrigued me for some time. Why does SATA fly this route? Is there some historical connection between these 2 cities or this region? Does this A310 do the route non-stop?

Maybe its a strategy to avoid SFO but still serve the bay area.

Do they fly to LIS? I'd have a hard time believing that US West Coast-Azores is a real market.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:24 am

There is quite a Azorean population in Northern/Central CA. Portuguese settlers arrived in the area starting in the mid-1800s.
Much of the regions fishing fleet were made up of Portuguese and later they were part of the mining and significant part of the regions farming industries.

As I recall outside of the New England/Northeast US region, Northern California has the US largest Portuguese populations.
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thekorean
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:36 am

Do airlines save money by flying to OAK instead of SFO?

I do not mind flying to OAK at all, public transit wise, its not that much harder than going to SFO, especially now with AirBart.

I think OAK should market themselves more as 2nd SF airport.
 
flyingcat
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:45 am

Based on the historical connection linguica (Portuguese sausage) is a common food item found in many local restaurants. It is even served at some Mexican, Chinese and Vietnamese restaurants in the bay area.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:48 am

Like mentioned Portuguese migrants most from the Azores and Medeira made home in communities like Oakland, Fresno, Santa Cruz. Until WWII Portuguese were actually one of the largest ethnic groups in the East Bay (OAK).

Today California is home to 330,974 Portuguese, actually the largest population in any state, thought the New England/NYC regions overall have more.
Also a good number of those in California have also gone further to places like Hawaii giving then a population of near 50,000.

http://www.portugal-us.com/index.php...es/category/population_statistics/
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adamblang
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:51 am

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does this A310 do the route non-stop?

I can't find any indication it's operating this year but it looks like last year's service (it appears to have been summer seasonal) stops in Toronto.
 
UA735WL
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 3:52 am

There's quite a sizeable Portuguese population in Oakland...back when I lived in the East Bay I had an uncle who was one of maybe 3 non Portuguese families in his (Oakland) neighborhood. If Oakland has a larger Portuguese population than SF (not sure) it just might be some savvy station-picking by SATA- it makes sense to serve the airport geographically closest to your target demographic.

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):

I believe it stops in BOS.

Jonas
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continental004
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 4:06 am

Large Portuguese population in the Bay Area and the nearby Central Valley. As far as I know the flight stops in YYZ, and its final destination is TER, not PDL. Odd, but I believe that is where the VFR traffic is going.
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 6:37 am

Wonder if they will use one those 330s they are in the process of acquiring will start to do this trip. If for nothing to avoid the stopover, but the 330 might be overkill for OAK-TER.
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RWA380
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 6:58 am

Quoting adamblang (Reply 6):
I can't find any indication it's operating this year but it looks like last year's service (it appears to have been summer seasonal) stops in Toronto.

Sure would help if they obtain 5th freedom rights, can't imagine any carrier really getting to upset over a couple times a week flight OAK-YYZ, except UA & AC are over at SFO, but that's not the market they are targeting anyway.
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jrfspa320
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 7:15 am

I think nonstop would be within range of the A310-300 anyway, would it not?
 
continental004
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 9):

Wonder if they will use one those 330s they are in the process of acquiring will start to do this trip. If for nothing to avoid the stopover, but the 330 might be overkill for OAK-TER.


Wonder if SATA will move the flight to PDL for better connections if they put the 330 on.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 6:41 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Today California is home to 330,974 Portuguese, actually the largest population in any state, thought the New England/NYC regions overall have more.
Also a good number of those in California have also gone further to places like Hawaii giving then a population of near 50,000.

The current population of the Azores Islands, where most California Portuguese have their roots, is about 250,000. That is down from the 328,000 who lived in the Azores in 1960.

Continued migration to the US and elsewhere has kept the population at about the same level for the last 3 decades or so.

There have been several large historical migrations from the Azores to the US. The most recent large period was probably in the 1960s/1970s following the volcano eruption of Capelinhos in 1958.

The continued levels of migration have help maintain many close ties in California to the Azores Islands as new first-generation immigrants continue to arrive.
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jetblue1965
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):

Makes me wonder if it makes sense for TAP to do LIS-SFO someday
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 6:54 pm

Route appears to be OAK-BOS-TER this summer. I wouldn't be surprised if OAK is dropped in the future with the B6/S4 interline agreement.
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GE9X
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting jrfspa320 (Reply 11):

I think nonstop would be within range of the A310-300 anyway, would it not?

On paper the 313 can do it (4250nm vs 5200 nm) but only barely so when factoring the headwinds on the westbound leg and SATA's 222-seat configuration. With maximum fuel, the payload is restricted to ~7000 kg which would mean flying with less than 100 pax.
 
klwright69
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 7:21 pm

Actually I am aware of all the Portuguese in Central California, it is a farming region, and a lot of them are involved in agriculture.

That's just trivia, I know nothing about the route or SATA Airlines really. Would love to visit the Azores one day.
 
superjeff
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting continental004 (Reply 8):
Large Portuguese population in the Bay Area and the nearby Central Valley. As far as I know the flight stops in YYZ, and its final destination is TER, not PDL. Odd, but I believe that is where the VFR traffic is going.

Slightly off topic, but close - in the late 1800's, Portugese were hired to be supervisors on the Hawaiian sugar and pineapple plantations - they came from the Azores, because the weather and vegetation was similar (volcanic islands). Not sure how many Hawaiian Portugese actually fly back to visit, but Oakland is an easy flight from Hawaii and this would definitely be a viable connection.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 10:18 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
Makes me wonder if it makes sense for TAP to do LIS-SFO someday

They have already tried serving California to cater to the Azorean community in the Summer of 1989 and were not successful. They had a flight from LIS to LAX with a stop in TER. I can't recall right now if it also stopped in SFO on its way, but here is a video of their L-1011 on arrival to LAX in 1989.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkhKifdZp78
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airportugal310
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 10:55 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 18):
Not sure how many Hawaiian Portugese actually fly back to visit,

Me neither, but I live in Hawaii, my parents are from Mainland Portugal (and I came from the Boston area). People here claim to be Portuguese (and I suppose they are by lineage), but I can assure you most don't know anything about Portuguese culture or language or anything.

Portuguese sausage in Hawaii = linguica everywhere else
Potagee = non existant word on the East Coast
Potagee jokes = Polish jokes in the rest of the US (why they single out the Polish and Portuguese for this is still beyond me)

Harsh, I know, but it's miles away from how Portuguese on the East Coast of the US are. And possibly California, though I have no particular experience with them.

So the roundabout way to answer your comment is: "probably none, to very little"

But hey, the Portuguese brought the ukulele to Hawaii so its all good
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aloha73g
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Thu May 21, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 18):
Slightly off topic, but close - in the late 1800's, Portugese were hired to be supervisors on the Hawaiian sugar and pineapple plantations - they came from the Azores, because the weather and vegetation was similar (volcanic islands). Not sure how many Hawaiian Portugese actually fly back to visit, but Oakland is an easy flight from Hawaii and this would definitely be a viable connection.

I am one of the Portuguese in Hawaii. My mom is 100% Portuguese, so I am 50%. Her family came from the Azores and Madeira in 1886 and 1888 respectively. Most of the Portuguese here are very much mixed with other ethnicities. I know of only a few families like my mom's that stayed "pure." For example, my grandpa had 5 brothers and he is the only one who married another Portuguese.

A few of my aunties, uncles and cousins have visited Portugal, and I want to go someday...but it's been over 100 years since the main migration to Hawaii (mostly Maui) so it's not like we have friends or relatives to visit, plus no one speaks the language anymore. My grandma is 91 and she knows some Portuguese but that's about it. For the trips I've browsed to Madeira and the Azores the SATA OAK flights were one of the best options, but I'm sure the market from Hawaii to Portugal is rather small.

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Viscount724
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Fri May 22, 2015 1:00 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 10):
Quoting adamblang (Reply 6):
I can't find any indication it's operating this year but it looks like last year's service (it appears to have been summer seasonal) stops in Toronto.

Sure would help if they obtain 5th freedom rights, can't imagine any carrier really getting to upset over a couple times a week flight OAK-YYZ, except UA & AC are over at SFO, but that's not the market they are targeting anyway.

They should already have 5th freedom rights anywhere they want to fly between the US and Canada since Portugal is part of the EU and both Canada-EU and US-EU are Open Skies agreements with unrestricted 5th freedom rights, assuming they have rights from the other country which in this case they do. It's probably not worth the effort to sell 5th freedom traffic considering the likely revenue it would generate.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Fri May 22, 2015 4:10 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
Makes me wonder if it makes sense for TAP to do LIS-SFO someday

It was a disaster when they tried it last time, so I'd say no.

When larger carriers with much larger home markets like Iberia and Alitalia can't even run LAX year-round, I simply see no chance for TAP.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
continental004
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:12 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):

It was a disaster when they tried it last time, so I'd say no.

When larger carriers with much larger home markets like Iberia and Alitalia can't even run LAX year-round, I simply see no chance for TAP.

EI and SK are making SFO work, and neither fly to LAX.
 
HALFA
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:45 am

When I was based in SFO as an HA Flight Attendant back in the mid to late 80's, we worked charter flights from SFO-BOS-TER and back. One crew would deadhead a day early from SFO to BOS and the next day another crew would work SFO-BOS and layover in BOS. The crew that deadheaded to BOS would then pick up the flight and do a turn from BOS-TER-BOS and layover in BOS again, and the crew that worked SFO-BOS would work the flight back to SFO.
These flights operated with 362 seats in an all economy class configuration on our L1011 aircraft. They were usually quite full. I was told then that there was a large Portuguese community from the Azores in the Belmont/Red Wood City area on the Peninsula in the Bay Area.

Aloha,
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mercure1
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting continental004 (Reply 24):
EI and SK are making SFO work, and neither fly to LAX.

SK is the UA connection with SFO hub = more feed.

EI we dont know yet. Its only restarted SFO last summer. Give them a few years to see if they stick around this time.
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S75752
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 2:34 pm

I wonder if they might replace the 310 with a smaller aircraft, like their 320 or maybe some future 320Neo order. Maybe that would allow them to up the frequencies enough to 5th freedom the YYZ-OAK. I think that'd help the success of the route a lot. Of course, YYZ-TER is on the very edge of the 320's capabilities, maybe a bit outside of it. Could end up seeing some diversions in the winter.

I am curious just how the oddly specific link between the Bay Area and the Azores formed, though.

Quoting continental004 (Reply 24):

EI and SK are making SFO work, and neither fly to LAX.

LAX is also much more competitive and I would think saturated by now.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 26):

SK is the UA connection with SFO hub = more feed.

UA does have the LAX hub for connections. But I think the othr factor in keeping SK from launching LAX-CPH is Norwegian.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 27):

Does the A320 have the capability to operate such a long route?
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Viscount724
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 28):
Quoting S75752 (Reply 27):


Does the A320 have the capability to operate such a long route?

YYZ-TER is almost equal to BOS-SFO where VX and B6 use the A320. But far fewer diversion options.

YYZ-TER 2,357 nm
BOS-SFO 2,350 nm
 
S75752
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 11:30 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):

YYZ-TER is almost equal to BOS-SFO where VX and B6 use the A320. But far fewer diversion options.

YHZ looks like it's right in the path so that could work. Maybe YYT in a pinch if necessary.
 
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FLIHGH
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sat May 23, 2015 11:32 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 15):

B6 only has a single daily redeye OAK-BOS, and SATA's flight doesn't leave until the evening. Timings would be brutal.
 
Freshside3
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 12:08 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 27):
I wonder if they might replace the 310 with a smaller aircraft, like their 320 or maybe some future 320Neo order. Maybe that would allow them to up the frequencies enough to 5th freedom the YYZ-OAK. I think that'd help the success of the route a lot. Of course, YYZ-TER is on the very edge of the 320's capabilities, maybe a bit outside of it. Could end up seeing some diversions in the winter.

SATA actually cut a deal to get two A330s from Air India. This was shown on another thread on A-net......these two planes are going to be the replacement for two of the A310s.

Quoting HALFA (Reply 25):
When I was based in SFO as an HA Flight Attendant back in the mid to late 80's, we worked charter flights from SFO-BOS-TER and back. One crew would deadhead a day early from SFO to BOS and the next day another crew would work SFO-BOS and layover in BOS. The crew that deadheaded to BOS would then pick up the flight and do a turn from BOS-TER-BOS and layover in BOS again, and the crew that worked SFO-BOS would work the flight back to SFO. These flights operated with 362 seats in an all economy class configuration on our L1011 aircraft. They were usually quite full. I was told then that there was a large Portuguese community from the Azores in the Belmont/Red Wood City area on the Peninsula in the Bay Area.

A company called Total Air also operated a OGG-SFO-BOS-TER charter flight, in the late 1980s, once or twice a week.
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 12:21 am

Gosh.. I was hoping to get on their A310 next year, but I guess their A310s will be gone by then. Here's one of their A310s on landing at Oakland with the bay area in the background.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thfoe8Dl9Jo
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reality
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 12:27 am

Fabulous video. Obrigado.
 
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RWA380
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 8:00 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
They should already have 5th freedom rights anywhere they want to fly between the US and Canada since Portugal is part of the EU and both Canada-EU and US-EU are Open Skies agreements with unrestricted 5th freedom rights, assuming they have rights from the other country which in this case they do.

Thanks for clearing that up, it also means they should take any one who will fly them between YYZ & OAK if they are going that way anyway.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
It's probably not worth the effort to sell 5th freedom traffic considering the likely revenue it would generate.

Bay Area - Toronto, has some decent O/D, I'd think like TG did with SEA-YYZ back in the 90's, it would sell quite a few seats, especially if the price was $100-150 each way plus tax.

Since they are running it any way, ANY revenue generated helps mitigate the expense of a longer tag. The costs of offering such a service would be rather minimal & assuming even 50% of passengers will deplane at YYZ, any warm bottom in a seat generating revenue is better than half a widebody plane worth of empty seat generating zero revenue on a 5 hr flight, IMHO.
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photolppt
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 11:17 am

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 21):
I am one of the Portuguese in Hawaii. My mom is 100% Portuguese, so I am 50%. Her family came from the Azores and Madeira in 1886 and 1888 respectively. Most of the Portuguese here are very much mixed with other ethnicities. I know of only a few families like my mom's that stayed "pure." For example, my grandpa had 5 brothers and he is the only one who married another Portuguese.

Olá!
Nice to hear from you. Two trivia bits:
Your 'Ahola' derives from our own 'Olá', we use Olá only as greeting upon meeting someone.
Your ukelele derives from our 'Cavaquinho', a small four string guitar the Portuguese took to Hawaii in the 1800s!

Would love to visit Hawaii one day. Maybe when EK flies the route, ehehe
 
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Sun May 24, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 30):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 29):

YYZ-TER is almost equal to BOS-SFO where VX and B6 use the A320. But far fewer diversion options.


YHZ looks like it's right in the path so that could work. Maybe YYT in a pinch if necessary.

I was thinking more of eastbound YYZ-TER.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
It's probably not worth the effort to sell 5th freedom traffic considering the likely revenue it would generate.

Bay Area - Toronto, has some decent O/D, I'd think like TG did with SEA-YYZ back in the 90's, it would sell quite a few seats, especially if the price was $100-150 each way plus tax.

Since they are running it any way, ANY revenue generated helps mitigate the expense of a longer tag. The costs of offering such a service would be rather minimal & assuming even 50% of passengers will deplane at YYZ, any warm bottom in a seat generating revenue is better than half a widebody plane worth of empty seat generating zero revenue on a 5 hr flight, IMHO.

Have to consider the costs of paying for check-in, security, baggage-handling etc. And who is going to even know about their minimal 5th freedom service without expensive advertising? I just don't see the revenue offsetting the costs.
 
SFOThinker
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Mon May 25, 2015 12:30 am

As long as an OAK - YYZ flight showed up on Expedia and other similar sites, those seats would sell, particularly if they were bargain priced.
 
S75752
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Mon May 25, 2015 1:14 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):

I was thinking more of eastbound YYZ-TER.

Shouldn't eastbound not be any more of a problem for a 320 than a 310, given tailwind?

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
And who is going to even know about their minimal 5th freedom service without expensive advertising?

Kayak, Orbitz, Expedia probably. Low fare seekers...
 
Viscount724
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Mon May 25, 2015 2:22 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 39):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):

I was thinking more of eastbound YYZ-TER.

Shouldn't eastbound not be any more of a problem for a 320 than a 310, given tailwind?

But the Azores are in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. If weather etc. forced a diversion you may have to go another 800 miles or so to mainland Europe (or the Portuguese island of Madeira, about 600 miles), or hope one of the other few airports in the Azores was open.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Mon May 25, 2015 2:35 am

If YKF had a longer runway, maybe SATA could skip YYZ altogether  
Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):
Do airlines save money by flying to OAK instead of SFO?

OAK is cheaper to operate from than SFO.

Also, OAK is closer to and easier to get to from the Central Valley, where Portuguese dairy farmers are based (and known for taking advantage of their workers at every chance.).

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
Also a good number of those in California have also gone further to places like Hawaii giving then a population of near 50,000.

They weren't really California-based.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 9):
Wonder if they will use one those 330s they are in the process of acquiring will start to do this trip. If for nothing to avoid the stopover, but the 330 might be overkill for OAK-TER.


A non-stop would be overkill, given the population size.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Freshside3
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RE: Why Does Sata Airlines Fly To Oakland?

Mon May 25, 2015 11:42 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 35):

Since they are running it any way, ANY revenue generated helps mitigate the expense of a longer tag. The costs of offering such a service would be rather minimal & assuming even 50% of passengers will deplane at YYZ, any warm bottom in a seat generating revenue is better than half a widebody plane worth of empty seat generating zero revenue on a 5 hr flight, IMHO.

The could sell

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):

OAK is cheaper to operate from than SFO.

Also, OAK is closer to and easier to get to from the Central Valley, where Portuguese dairy farmers are based (and known for taking advantage of their workers at every chance.).

The East Bay also has more Azorean Portuguese than San Francisco proper does.......Hayward, Castro Valley, and especially San Leandro, which is right next to the OAK airport.

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