dubaiamman243
Topic Author
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:00 pm

Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 11:45 am

The Dutch Government is blocking the ME3 expansion at Amsterdam Airport by not giving extra landing rights because of the subsidy allegations.

from the article:

"Speaking to Financieele Dagblad, Holland’s junior transport minister Wilma Mansveld said: “I want, together with my European colleagues, to take a tougher approach to the rise of airlines in the Middle East if there is talk of unfair competition,” she said."


source: http://www.arabianbusiness.com/dutch...l-airport-593530.html#.VV3Ef_mqqko
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
jfk777
Posts: 7163
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 11:57 am

A Bit Ironic since KLM built itself flying passengers through its Amsterdam hub.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 2384
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
A Bit Ironic since KLM built itself flying passengers through its Amsterdam hub.

How is this ironic? It's not what the article is about, and it's not why the Dutch Government blcoks ME3 expansion. It's about subsidies.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9914
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 2):
How is this ironic? It's not what the article is about, and it's not why the Dutch Government blcoks ME3 expansion. It's about subsidies.

And the reason the Dutch Government cares about the subsidies is because the ME3 are stealing traffic that use to be flown by KL.
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:16 pm

Why do these carriers need more rights?
 
dubaiamman243
Topic Author
Posts: 1153
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:00 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):

EK & EY - 2 daily flights
QR - 1 daily flight
The next airline CEO :crossfingers:
 
ridgid727
Posts: 1081
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:58 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 5):

EK & EY - 2 daily flights
QR - 1 daily flight

More than enough for them to serve AMS.
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:22 pm

Im thinking thats sufficient, at most QR is allowed a second one.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Moderator
Posts: 26968
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:31 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
transport minister Wilma Mansveld said: “I want

Ah, a single minister wants something to happen. Good luck.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:33 pm

And don't forget the multiple daily freighters flown to AMS by the ME3.

Anyway, imho the measures taken won't really help KL. Connecting traffic will just bypass AMS through the countless smaller city's the ME3 serve. And afaik the measure only effect slots, so all QR, EY and EK have to do is send over more A380s iso the smaller Boeings and Airbii.
 
User avatar
Btblue
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:35 pm

Well done. If only more countries had the brass to say no.

It's more in their interest (ME3) than the interest if the country they want to fly to, surely? Diminish the state airline by offering cheaper flights using subsidised fuel? No?
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2324
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:37 pm

The original article is here: http://fd.nl/economie-politiek/11044...-schiphol-voor-vliegers-golfstaten (Dutch only)

The Minister said she wants to address this issue at EU level, and suspend negotiations until an EU-wide position on this has been taken. She does clearly mention that this was decided in the context of competition considerations.
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2747
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:39 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
the ME3 are stealing traffic

Total rubbish.

KLM do not own those passengers, they have to compete for their custom - since when does an airline ever own its customers??   
 
ASA
Posts: 1105
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):
Why do these carriers need more rights?

Did they even ask for more rights? The newspaper article didn't say that.
Or is the 'junior' transport minister busy grabbing some PR while the issue is hot?

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 2):
How is this ironic? It's not what the article is about, and it's not why the Dutch Government blcoks ME3 expansion. It's about subsidies.

Was KL government owned when it became a global force based on the AMS hub?

Was there any infrastructure, tax, landing rights, etc benefits all these decades a la EK?

Not accusing - just asking. Don't know enough. I flew DAC-DXB-AMS-IAH back in the days when KL served Bangladesh for short two years. It was a great experience for me ... along with the overnight at AMS!
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 2):
It's about subsidies.

Was KLM private during its growth phase?

In any event, for the ME3, AMS is a spoke, not a hub. Blocking expansion at AMS, doesn't stop the ME3 from getting more pax in North America, where it counts.

Expect schedule changes to A380s soon.
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:02 pm

I question how effective this will be in protecting KLM-AF. Their biggest problem is their lack of coverage in some parts of the world.

Seems to me if it's not the ME3, other carriers will get the traffic. Not AF-KL.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9792
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
A Bit Ironic since KLM built itself flying passengers through its Amsterdam hub.

The AMS hub is just as heavily connecting traffic as DXB is. Both are around 70-75% connect. In many ways, Netherlands is an even stronger case for the "imbalance" in bilaterals since Netherlands has a single major int'l gateway and UAE has two.

Also, Netherlands geography as a hub within Europe is questionable since it is not centrally located. It is better positioned as an international hub, just like DXB.

Quoting polot (Reply 3):
And the reason the Dutch Government cares about the subsidies is because the ME3 are stealing traffic that use to be flown by KL.
Quoting Richard28 (Reply 12):
KLM do not own those passengers, they have to compete for their custom - since when does an airline ever own its customers??

I think this makes perfect sense from the customer perspective. If you have flown on KLM in the past, you certainly should be forced to fly on them in the future no matter what price they charge. Seems logical to me.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 6):
More than enough for them to serve AMS.

That's for the customer to decide in a free market.

Quoting 76er (Reply 9):
And afaik the measure only effect slots

That's even worse. To restrict the number of slots they can hold is an attempt to bypass a more rigorous debate on the bilateral.

Quoting btblue (Reply 10):
Well done. If only more countries had the brass to say no.

We can all look forward to the day that countries only continue bilaterals where there own carriers have an advantage over the other country's carriers. i.e. the complete shutdown of international air transportation.

I guess KLM and Etihad are folding up their deal?
http://news.klm.com/start-tweede-fase-tussen-etihad-airways-en-klm-en
 
LHRlocal
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:11 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:08 pm

There's another thread on here at the moment stating how well the Dubai route is doing for AF/KL

AF/KL: Dubai Is "Working Pretty Well" (?) (by enilria May 18 2015 in Civil Aviation)

LHRlocal
 
777klm
Posts: 551
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:23 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:16 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 13):
Or is the 'junior' transport minister busy grabbing some PR while the issue is hot?

I guess that's not what they mean with 'Junior' transport minister. She's not a minister, she's the Undersecretary ("Staatssecretaris").
In the Netherlands, a undersecretary takes over part of the portfolio (in this case: transport) of a certain minister (in this case: the Ministry of Infrastructure and the Environment) and falls under the responsibility of that minister, but is at the same time also separately responsible to the parliament

On topic:
The EU is currently negotiating with the Gulf states on the air transport agreements. As long there's no agreement on that The Netherlands will not give out extra landing rights. That's not too strange is it?
Home airport: AMS
Next flight: CNX - BKK
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9914
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:22 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 12):
KLM do not own those passengers, they have to compete for their custom - since when does an airline ever own its customers??

Of course KLM does not own those passengers. But the Dutch government is, logically, going to to support KLM and would much prefer that passengers take KL over the ME3.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1):
A Bit Ironic since KLM built itself flying passengers through its Amsterdam hub.
Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 2):
How is this ironic? It's not what the article is about, and it's not why the Dutch Government blcoks ME3 expansion. It's about subsidies.

The article clearly states this is a coordinated European position of France, Germany and the Netherlands in an EU framework, until such times that the ME3 'subsidy' issue is satisfactorily clarified.

 
Quoting dubaiamman243 (Reply 5):
EK & EY - 2 daily flights
QR - 1 daily flight

It is lot more than that, the ME3 are particularly strong on fifth freedom cargo routes to/from AMS.

EK:
- 1xdaily A380 DXB,
- 1xdaily B773 DXB,
- 1xdaily B777F from NBO,
- 3x/weekly from GRU, UIO, CUR, to FRA, DXB,
- 1xweekly to ORD,
- 1xweekly to MMX, DXB
- 1x/weekly to ZAZ, DXB
- 3x/weekly B74F to/from DXB, ARN

EY:
- 1xdaily A332 AUH
- 1xdaily B77F from NBO to AUH
- 2xweekly B74F from AUH, to TBS, AUH
- 2xweekly B74F from BOG to MXP
- 1xweekly B74F AUH

QR:
- 1xdaily B787 DOH
- 1xdaily B77F from DOH, to DOH
- 2x/weekly to ORD
- 2xweekly from ORD, to DOH
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):

That's for the customer to decide in a free market.

Dutch passengers enjoy, like their Peers in other European markets, a highly competetive free market, without the ME3.

The move is about market Access, which always has been more or less balanced with reciprocal traffic rights Agreement.

Totally without any inout from the ME3, the EU single market, which has been Extended to countries as far as Northern Africa and Israel, including Turkey. With that ample choice, plus those third Country Airlines who offer their Services on reciprocal Agreements, EU passengers are well served and have ample choice.

The ME3 have Little or next to nothing, the markets they serve are totally imbalanced and have to rely on 5th freedom traffic to be sustainable. That makes the ME3 the pike in the carps Pond, the predator who steals Business away .

True KL and AMS alweays releied on 5th freedom traffic as well. When LH started 60 years ago, KL co-owned German air traffic , freight and passenger. That has changed without any government interference over the years, but how can that Change in case of EU carriers vs. ME3?

No Chance for the EU or US carriers to succeed in the longrun. At the end of the day, Long distance traffic would be "Norwgeian" style, where Crews are based overseas and paid a fraction of what local Crews get. IMHO, that is highly illegal right now. Same as we do not have any sweat Shops in Germany or other European countries where imported Labor works to Substandard conditions and wages, we cannot have a Situation in aviation that mirrors ocean shipping, where not even the ship's officers are working to European pay scales, not speaking of the rest of the Crew.

It is about time to Show the ME3 their limitations. Their Business model cannot be Extended endlessly.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
B742
Posts: 3592
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:48 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 1:57 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 20):
EK:
- 1xdaily A380 DXB,
- 1xdaily B773 DXB,
- 1xdaily B777F from NBO,
- 3x/weekly from GRU, UIO, CUR, to FRA, DXB,
- 1xweekly to ORD,
- 1xweekly to MMX, DXB
- 1x/weekly to ZAZ, DXB
- 3x/weekly B74F to/from DXB, ARN

Emirates SkyCargo flights are operated from DWC, not DXB.
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 2:19 pm

Is EK cargo Curacao flight a tech stop only? ist not in their map or schedule but appears in PDF schedule, which also shows Paramaribo.
 
factsonly
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 23):
Is EK cargo Curacao flight a tech stop only? ist not in their map or schedule but appears in PDF schedule, which also shows Paramaribo.

As CUR-AMS is a cabotage route - the nation of Curacao being a state within the Kingdom of the Netherlands - it is unlikely that EK has traffic rights CUR-AMS.
 
User avatar
GCT64
Posts: 1782
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 2:52 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):
“I want, together with my European colleagues, to take a tougher approach to the rise of airlines in the Middle East if there is talk of unfair competition,”

So doesn't seem to worry or care about facts and proof then? She wants to take a "tough approach" just because there is "talk of unfair competition".

Let's hope, for AFKL's and LH's sake, that BA doesn't "talk of unfair competition" (clearly they don't need actually prove it) and demand that the UK Government take a "tough approach" to traffic from EDI, GLA, ABZ, HUY, NCL, CWL, BRS, MAN, BHX, LPL etc. that gets siphoned off from BA/LHR and routed through AMS, CDG or FRA.

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
We can all look forward to the day that countries only continue bilaterals where there own carriers have an advantage over the other country's carriers.

It really seems that some people want to push that approach. Both amazing and shocking. They clearly haven't thought through the consequences.   
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 2747
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 2:57 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 19):
But the Dutch government is, logically, going to to support KLM and would much prefer that passengers take KL over the ME3.

even if that restricts competition and results in higher air fares for the Dutch population?

Seems Wilma Mansveld is falling for the North American protectionist rhetoric.
 
User avatar
ankaraflyjet
Posts: 475
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:34 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting dubaiamman243 (Thread starter):

Great opportunity for TK as the only serious competitor against ME3 from Europe via IST.....
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 24):

Do they carry freight Quito-Curacao?
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9914
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:08 pm

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 26):
even if that restricts competition and results in higher air fares for the Dutch population?

We are talking about a politician, we all know they don't always look at the big picture.

Every country in the world has some protective measures, including the EU/The Netherlands, although maybe not in the airline industry. Protectionism is a worldwide phenomenon.
 
76er
Posts: 669
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:04 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:08 pm

CUR is often used as a fuelstop for cargo flights between high altitude airports in South-America and Europe. Just like BGI, BQN and SJU for example.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4561
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:23 pm

Rather silly move, particularly for a nation and home airline that itself has been reliant on liberal trade rights.

KLM and AMS would not be where they are today as a large transfer operation if not for liberal traffic rights afforded by other states many decades ago.
mercure f-wtcc
 
factsonly
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 28):
Do they carry freight Quito-Curacao?

Not that I know.

Quoting 76er (Reply 30):
CUR is often used as a fuelstop for cargo flights between high altitude airports in South-America and Europe. Just like BGI, BQN and SJU for example.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9213
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:32 pm

As we are on an forum talking about aviation, a lot of posters have their blinkers on. Trade is mostly imbalanced when you look at single areas. A country hardly buys the exact same products from one country that they also sell. You buy raw material and sell processed goods for example. So it is usually the right way to look at trade as a whole between to countries or in case of the EU blocks. The USA has a positive trade balance to the UAE and Qatar. So the move to cut traffic rights for the ME3 would increase this imbalance between the USA and on the other side UAE and Qatar.
The EU has also a hefty positive trade balance with both Qatar and the UAE. So if one looks a little bit wider than just at aviation, both the USA and the EU do not stand very well to argue that the ME3 have to be cut down to size in aviation for the sake of a balance in trade, rather the other way round.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 9792
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:44 pm

Quoting lhrlocal (Reply 17):
There's another thread on here at the moment stating how well the Dubai route is doing for AF/KL

AF/KL: Dubai Is "Working Pretty Well" (?)

Ironic isn't that it that it is doing "pretty well and growing", but needs to be protected by the government.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
Dutch passengers enjoy, like their Peers in other European markets, a highly competetive free market, without the ME3.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but by definition it is not a free market without the ME3 being allowed to participate freely.

free mar·ket
noun
an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition.


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):
The ME3 have Little or next to nothing, the markets they serve are totally imbalanced and have to rely on 5th freedom traffic to be sustainable.

What 5th Freedom rights are you talking about? You think EK has become the world's largest international airline because of MXP-JFK? ROTFL.

EK/QR/EY hardly have *any* 5th Freedom rights. DL has many times more 5th Freedom rights than all three of the ME3 combined have. More fact-less vitriol.

DL's main complaint against EK is that they have been pushed out of India by them...but DL was actually flying Europe to India using 5th Freedom rights. They weren't even flying from the USA in years. At the same time they were complaining about EK flying MXP-JFK with 5th Freedom rights, DL was flying AMS-BOM with 5th Freedom Rights. Anyway, 5th Freedom rights for the ME3 are really a debate over ONE ROUTE. If that's all this is about then the whole thing is laughable. It's like .0004% of the ME3's revenue.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 25):
Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
We can all look forward to the day that countries only continue bilaterals where there own carriers have an advantage over the other country's carriers.

It really seems that some people want to push that approach. Both amazing and shocking. They clearly haven't thought through the consequences.

People think this is like making steel and if you stop buying steel from the evil foreigners you can just make more steel yourself and make more home country jobs. The reality is that with air bilaterals it means neither side can add anything... and if the BRIC countries adopted this same logic whereby their carriers must be guaranteed an even share of the traffic, it would destroy world air commerce and eliminate hundreds of thousands of airline jobs.
 
Thomaas
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:52 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
The AMS hub is just as heavily connecting traffic as DXB is. Both are around 70-75% connect. In many ways, Netherlands is an even stronger case for the "imbalance" in bilaterals since Netherlands has a single major int'l gateway and UAE has two.

Most of KL's connecting traffic actually ends in Europe, which is a single market as far as I know. Much different than EK that has a very small local market.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 3:53 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 4):
Why do these carriers need more rights?

To serve their customers who clearly want them to.

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 12):
Total rubbish.

KLM do not own those passengers, they have to compete for their custom - since when does an airline ever own its customers??   

Agreed. The arrogance displayed by companies seeking this protection (though mostly confined to the US3 Cartel) is astounding at times.

Quoting polot (Reply 19):
Of course KLM does not own those passengers. But the Dutch government is, logically, going to to support KLM and would much prefer that passengers take KL over the ME3.

They should prefer that the Dutch people are able to purchase the products they deem in their own best interest. No company is owed special treatment or even existence just because they're local.

Quoting polot (Reply 29):
Every country in the world has some protective measures, including the EU/The Netherlands, although maybe not in the airline industry. Protectionism is a worldwide phenomenon.

So is pollution. Doesn't make it a good thing.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 33):
The EU has also a hefty positive trade balance with both Qatar and the UAE. So if one looks a little bit wider than just at aviation, both the USA and the EU do not stand very well to argue that the ME3 have to be cut down to size in aviation for the sake of a balance in trade, rather the other way round.

No argument there. I think there is a very real need to take a look at the much bigger picture where these things are concerned. Nationalism doesn't really do much for economic development.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:02 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):

The AMS hub is just as heavily connecting traffic as DXB is. Both are around 70-75% connect

It doesn't matter how many transfer passengers the airport has, it only matters how many people living in the Netherlands fly from dutch airports and how many passengers in total dutch airlines get to see if there is a balance or not.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
factsonly
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:15 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 36):
No company is owed special treatment or even existence just because they're local.

So you agree to NO tax and charges benefits for ME3 .....and any other carrier either!
 
User avatar
BaconButty
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:42 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 2):
It's about subsidies.

Honest guv'nor.   
Down with that sort of thing!
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9602
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 16):
The AMS hub is just as heavily connecting traffic as DXB is. Both are around 70-75% connect.

Connecting passengers at AMS is about 40-45% of all passengers. Connecting passengers at DXB is about 50-55% of all passengers. While both have a reputation for having quite a few connecting passengers, both AMS and DXB are significant O/D markets. If you exclude all the non hub operators and just look at KL at AMS and EK at DXB, then yes they do have a higher percentage of connecting passengers.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
YULWinterSkies
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 11:42 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:34 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 34):
Sorry to burst your bubble, but by definition it is not a free market without the ME3 being allowed to participate freely.

free mar·ket
noun
an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition.

True. In a true free market, EK, EY or QR would operate the A380 as a shuttle between YVR, YYC, YUL (as a example to reflect the country associated to your profile) with wages and benefits less than the meager ones that AC crew get, and they would bankrupt AC and WJ in no time. This is why commercial aviation is NOT a free market and most countries don't want it to become so.

[Edited 2015-05-21 09:35:52]
When I doubt... go running!
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9590
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:41 pm

So if in the other thread the US3 claims about subsidy is suspect, how did the US3 get the government of another country to buy in to their info?
I am totally confused, I suspect it has to do with reading the other thread on the US3.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9731
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 34):
Sorry to burst your bubble, but by definition it is not a free market without the ME3 being allowed to participate freely.

A free market is only free when it is regulated by laws. That's why I wrote about "market access" in the next paragraph. Try again to understand what I mean.
Airlines for instance have, regulated by bilaterals, the freedom not to pay taxes on revenues earned in foreign countries. That is granted reciprocally. Now we have a Situation that the ME3 earn huge amounts of Revenue in Europe and elsewhere, but have only a tiny home market whoch leaves only a flight or two to Airlines like KL or LH.
Now before you burp out again, other Service industries which are more stationary like Amazon, Starbuck's etc. define free Enterprise as freedom to pay no taxes. By Setting up shop in Ireland and Luxemburg and Transfer the Name rights to a Dutch Company whoch they own as well, charging the LUX and DUB companies for the Name rights which is tax free income in the Netherlands.
The EU will regulate that very soon and the US is OK with having the EU taking that frreedom away because they haven't seen hardly a penny either because the dutch and Irish companies are owned offshore.

Quoting enilria (Reply 34):
What 5th Freedom rights are you talking about? You think EK has become the world's largest international airline because of MXP-JFK? ROTFL.

I think that I have proven often enough in over 10K replies here that I know what I'm writing about. My bad is that I sometimes don't double check.


Cargo flights will be restricted by the Dutch government as well. Right so. When looking at the number of flights to and from countris who have no industry and hardly any local cargo production, except the Import of luxury goods.
Again, when looking at the number of cargo flights by the ME3 you have the obvious reason why the once proud cargo department of KLM inclduing Martinair is a shadow of what it once was.
And why shoud the Dutch government grant more cargo flight s to a third Country carrier when it does not allow a single market Airline, namely LH Cargo, to stop at AMS with fully traffic rights on the way from UIO to FRA




Another Topic on the more or less global full open skies policy on cargo flights are the 2 US Integrators who make full use of that. Understandable from their Point of view, by why that on the expense of the Europeans? Where is the reciprocailty here? FX and UPS can fly freight from Europe to Asia with full rights, I would have to check but I doubt that LH can do that from the US to Asia.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 4:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
, other Service industries which are more stationary like Amazon, Starbuck's etc. define free Enterprise as freedom to pay no taxes. By Setting up shop in Ireland and Luxemburg and Transfer the Name rights to a Dutch Company whoch they own as well, charging the LUX and DUB companies for the Name rights which is tax free income in the Netherlands.

They will all setup shop in some other country which offers tax advantages   .
"Up the Irons!"
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2445
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 38):
So you agree to NO tax and charges benefits for ME3 .....and any other carrier either!

They're not getting special treatment for that either. Where are you getting that from?
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 5:26 pm

Quoting jacobin777 (Reply 44):
They will all setup shop in some other country which offers tax advantages

won't help their EU business.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
golfradio
Posts: 906
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:35 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 43):
A free market is only free when it is regulated by laws

Absolutely correct and they also do not apply to foreign entities. They are only applicable equally to all domestic players. Any entity that is not deemed resident by the laws of that country cannot demand access to a free market. Their access to the market will be regulated by tariffs and quotas. By their very nature, airlines are not resident and cannot demand free access. The same way that imported goods are slapped with import duties, airlines will be governed by bilaterals. A lot of folks here don't get the concept of free markets.

ME3 want more access, let them set up local subsidiaries like Virgin and JetStar. I hope the Dutch learn a thing or two from the Canadian and keep these parasites on a tight leash.
CSeries forever. Bring back the old site.
 
User avatar
par13del
Posts: 9590
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 46):
won't help their EU business.

...won't help their existing EU consumers either, the effects are not isolated.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 11688
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Dutch Govt Blocks ME3 Expansion At AMS

Thu May 21, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 48):
..won't help their existing EU consumers either, the effects are not isolated.

of course it will, broader tax base is usually good for all the other tax payers, which all their customers are.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos