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LAXintl
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Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 12:53 am

Per an email news summary I receive:

Eight South Korean airlines signed an agreement with the country’s Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, and Transport (MLIT) to only operate aircraft of twenty years or younger.
The agreement forms part of the country’s ongoing efforts to improve on airline safety, according to the ministry of land, infrastructure and transport.
Currently, only 14 of the 264 aircraft in service with the country’s carriers are more than 20 years old, of which Korean Air operates four 747 passenger aircraft, with Asiana having two 767 passenger aircraft and six 747 freighters.


Related news story, minus the details
http://www.koreaobserver.com/south-k...-to-replace-all-aged-planes-28645/

=

Its interesting to note, a growing number of nations are starting to impose such limits in recent years. For example Saudi Arabia and Pakistan both recently announced similar restrictions while several other nations have imposed restrictions on import and registry of older leased aircraft as well.
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jetblue1965
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 12:59 am

The U.S. would be severely impacted if such a regulation lands here. We have all the MD80s and 757s of the world.
 
nikeherc
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:09 am

This is silly. If the airplane has had its checks at the proper intervals and is properly serviced it will last until at least it reaches its cycles and hours limits. Poorly maintained or badly flown aircraft are the problem, not the calendar.
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):

God I hope that happens here 

Imagine the utter chaos.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):

I'm conservatively estimating 1/3rd of DL's fleet is past the 20y mark at this time.
 
peanuts
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:20 am

Curious. What was the age of aircraft that crashed over the last 10 years?
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".

Lipstick on a pig.
Statistics will prove it.
 
alfa164
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Curious. What was the age of aircraft that crashed over the last 10 years?
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".
Lipstick on a pig.
Statistics will prove it.

   Now Korea can proclaim "all our planes are less than 20 years old!" and most passengers won't realize that is meaningless. Next, they will pass regulations requiring nuts to be served in a bowl...
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larshjort
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:28 am

This is clearly a very good agreement because all of the big crashes involving korean Airlines have been with aircraft 20 years or older.

OZ162 - 7 years
OZ214 - 7 years
OZ991 - 5 years

KE8509 - 19 years
KE6316 - 7 years
KE801 - 12 years
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:31 am

This is not mandatory. It's just a soft agreement between airlines and moct. Purchasing 20+ year old fleet will require more paper works, and moct will look closely how airlines operate 20+ year old fleets for safety. So purchasing/operating old fleets are not banned. There has been some mis-understandings by non-experts who tweaked the news.

There is one new cargo airline (Air Incheon) whose fleet is all 20+ year old. Guess other airlines wanted to screw this company.

[Edited 2015-05-21 18:33:25]
 
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:34 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):

Well its certainly putting it in neutral. But it can't hurt. It makes it more interesting.
 
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:46 am

Dumb. But if Saudi Arabia and Pakistan think it's a good idea, clearly they're onto something 
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ikramerica
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:50 am

Why would this apply to freighters? Many aren't even converted to F use until they are approaching 20 years. Freighters don't complete many cycles, have plenty of ground time for maintenance, aren't as impacted by a delay in takeoff due to a tech issue.

But considering KE and OZ were both getting rid of their passenger aircraft over 20 years old anyway as new aircraft come in, it's a meaningless gesture, for now.
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 3:32 am

DL just had a heart attack!   

 
Quoting nikeherc (Reply 2):
This is silly. If the airplane has had its checks at the proper intervals and is properly serviced it will last until at least it reaches its cycles and hours limits. Poorly maintained or badly flown aircraft are the problem, not the calendar.

Exactly. But after a number of crashes, it is trying to make it look like regulatory action is being taken. What needs to be done is end the 'Sky god' culture where the copilot cannot question the pilot's actions.

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".

   It will make good press and distract public attention from the real issues.

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LAX772LR
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 4:20 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Curious. What was the age of aircraft that crashed over the last 10 years?
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".

      


Quoting thekorean (Reply 9):
But it can't hurt.

Actually, it can. It doesn't allow airlines to gain maximum utility over the (true) useful lifespan of their assets.

An illustrative example would be like the government mandating that all cars used as taxi-cabs be 5yrs-old or less. Nice for the pax, but that's harmful to the fleets, as they stand to get far more usage out of car, and can safely do so if properly maintained.


Quoting ikramerica (Reply 11):
Why would this apply to freighters?

That was my immediate thought as well.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Max Q
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 4:38 am

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Curious. What was the age of aircraft that crashed over the last 10 years?
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".

Lipstick on a pig.
Statistics will prove it

Couldn't agree more.


It's ridiculous, what they need to look at is Pilot training and their dysfunctional attitude towards it.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 4:41 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):

But thats strictly financial. I am talking purely safety.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):

I think KE got safer but we can disagree. Point being, if you don't think they have changed, I don't expect things will be any different soon. Until next crash.

And KE has been having hella less incidence than they did before. And its not all foreign pilots working for the airline.

Problems still linger I imagine though. But until FAA downgrades again, I am ok with em.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:42 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 14):
what they need to look at is Pilot training and their dysfunctional attitude towards it.

      




Quoting thekorean (Reply 15):
But thats strictly financial. I am talking purely safety.

What's the difference? Safety *is* a financial calculation for airlines!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 6:06 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 16):

HA thats true
 
38m
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 6:31 am

As an aviation geek, I do think this is useless, but I can see why they are doing this. Only us aviation geeks would choose to fly on 25+ year old 744 over some 2 year old 77W. People really get scared about how old the planes are. For some reason, I think Korean people really care about the hardware part of aviation safety. I have read some people saying that KE and OZ should stop flying 772's since they are unsafe, or that they should avoid 737's because they are old (lol). They are simply taking actions according to the public opinion. I mean, the government never pushed the airlines to do this.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 7:47 am

Quoting 38m (Reply 18):
Only us aviation geeks would choose to fly on 25+ year old 744 over some 2 year old 77W.

DL proves that that isn't true, every day.

Quoting 38m (Reply 18):
People really get scared about how old the planes are.

Small problem, the overwhelming majority of them would have no idea how old an aircraft (or even model) is.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
barney captain
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 8:04 am

Of all the things wrong with Korean aviation, THIS is what they propose as a remedy?

You might as well replace the headlight on your can because the brakes are failing.
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38m
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 19):
DL proves that that isn't true, every day.

What I was trying to say was that regular passengers would not choose to be on an old plane just because it's a 744. As you mentioned, majority of them would have no idea what model it is.
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you for the most part, but trust me, A LOT of Korean people were (and still are) scared of certain types of aircraft and the age of those planes. I believe this is one of the ways that the airlines thought of to resolve the problem.
 
faugusto0264
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 9:11 am

Quoting 38m (Reply 18):
Only us aviation geeks would choose to fly on 25+ year old 744 over some 2 year old 77W. People really get scared about how old the planes are.

Of course, limiting the age of AC is pointless as safety measure... But then, apart from aviation geeks, how many people really know the age of the plane they are going to board ??? Unless the aircraft painting or cabin is visibly thorn (and then the main problem would be that this can be a sign of overall bad maintenance), not many have idea how old or new an aircraft can be.

Sometime ago, boarding on a VCP - PLU flight I took a picture from the aircraft on instagram... Almost immediately, a friend of mine replied: "are you really going to fly on this thing ? it should be from my grandpa time, propellers and all". It was an ATR72-600 (one of the most comfortable and pleasant AC I ever enjoyed as passenger) which had entered service less than one month before...
 
gabrielchew
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 9:14 am

From the thread title, I thought they were imposing a maximum age for passengers onboard. You know, like over 100, and you're probably going to die or cause a diversion. You can't fly.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 7):
OZ162 - 7 years
OZ214 - 7 years
OZ991 - 5 years

KE8509 - 19 years
KE6316 - 7 years
KE801 - 12 years

If those stats are right, then this agreement is completely pointless in trying to improve safety!
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nikeherc
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 11:47 am

One of my favorite anecdotes is about a passenger asking the pilot of a DC-3 being used in the 1980s if a plane that old could possibly be safe. The pilot replied "How do you think it got to be so old?"
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 12:10 pm

I'm sure Boeing and Airbus (and GE, RR, PW etc) won't be complaining if more countries follow their lead!
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EMAman
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 12:34 pm

The age of the aircraft has had nothing to do with KE/ OZ historic accidents, most of which were pilot errors.

What is the actual driver of this? is it environmental even?

I think 20 years is a low limit, could understand perhaps 25 or even 30.

It would have been to better to focus on banning by aircraft type i.e. where safety or environmental performance is known to be bad.
 
smokeybandit
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 12:55 pm

I thought this thread was about passenger age limits
 
roseflyer
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:00 pm

When age limits of airplanes are proposed they can be in three different measurements.

If the limit is based on flight hours or cycles, you know an engineer with a technical background came up with the requirement based on some technical factors (fatigue life, etc).

If the limit is based on calendar time, you know that it was a politician who proposed the limit who does not understand much about airplane design.

I personally am not opposed to some life restrictions. The FAA is pushing limit of validity of airplanes that include fatigue damage inspections, repair assessment and corrosion prevention programs. It used to be believed that a well maintained airplane can fly forever. That method of thinking really pushes the fatigue analysis design capability of the design engineers. Beyond a certain point, the accuracy of damage tolerant design and fatigue analysis starts to become a less accurate science. The airplanes pushing the limits were designed using 1970s & 1980s era technology. See FAA AC 12-104

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/120-104.pdf

What the Korean regulatory authority should notice is that the FAA only has flight hour and flight cycle requirements. There are no calendar age limits any where in that Advisory Circular.
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COSPN
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:08 pm

It's emotional issue and that is how Korea works (north and south)
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:15 pm

This will punish cargo and charter operators and make it better for them to relocate to another jurisdiction. Most passenger airlines don't use 20 year+ aircraft anyway as they use them intensively and are more concerned about fuel burn than purchase price.

They would be better off making sure their pilots are properly trained so that they don't undershoot the runway or fly straight into mountains.
 
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enilria
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
The U.S. would be severely impacted if such a regulation lands here. We have all the MD80s and 757s of the world.
Quoting thekorean (Reply 3):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):

God I hope that happens here 

Imagine the utter chaos.

This is one of those things that the U.S. carriers would fight tooth and nail, but that ultimately would benefit them.

I don't see it happening because it would wipe out tons of capital investment they are carrying on their books, but it would make it harder for new carriers to enter the market (more capital needed) and ultimately reduce capacity more in the USA market both of which benefit the airlines with the lobbyists.

Personally, I'm against an artificial cap.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 13):
An illustrative example would be like the government mandating that all cars used as taxi-cabs be 5yrs-old or less.

Correct me if i am wrong please, but isn't there such a law for taxi's in NY and London?
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roseflyer
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 32):

This is one of those things that the U.S. carriers would fight tooth and nail, but that ultimately would benefit them.

This would be terrible for US airlines. This would increase the depreciation rate for airplanes, which would significantly increase leasing prices. This would also destroy freight operators like FedEx, UPS, ABX, Atlas, etc who have most of their fleets over 20 years of age.

The FAA is establishing limits of validity based on technical rationale in AC 120-104. There is math and science behind fatigue analysis that justifies limits. While airlines are fighting some of these limits, they know that the maintenance is based on keeping airplanes airworthy and not appeasing those who don't understand airplane design. Calendar limits are based on emotional reactions of uneducated politicians.
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HNLPointShoot
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 2:16 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 8):
There is one new cargo airline (Air Incheon) whose fleet is all 20+ year old. Guess other airlines wanted to screw this company.

Interesting, any idea why the big players would want to mess with them? They only have a pair of 734Fs, so what makes them a threat to a company as large as KE or OZ?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 2:41 pm

If South Korea actually wanted to improve their airline safety they should start from the company culture, that's the real source of issues. But it seems like the standard way of things in there is to punish low level employees with ridiculous jail sentences and then continue as usual towards the next disaster. No way I'm going to step on board a South Korean airline any time soon.
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 3:25 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):

They did. At least KE. Am I missing something?

And that nut lady wasn't exactly a low position employee.

Listen, Korea as a whole completely changed from 90's.

Heck even the military is a lot softer now. And thats going to impact the corporation culture.

[Edited 2015-05-22 08:29:43]
 
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BaconButty
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 3:43 pm

Quoting HeeseokKoo (Reply 8):
There has been some mis-understandings by non-experts who tweaked the news.

I'm afraid your getting in the way of a good bit of A.Net outrage, and as such have been soundly ignored  . The report I read backs you up:

Quote:
South Korean carriers Air Busan, Air Incheon, Asiana Airlines, Eastar Jet, Jeju Air, Jin Air, Korean Air, and T'way Air have voluntarily signed an agreement with the country's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, & Transport (MLIT) in which they have pledged to replace any aircraft in their fleets that are older than twenty years of age.

The convention aims to improve the country's overall safety standard as well as enhance fuel efficiency.
http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/ne...riers-pledge-to-replace-older-jets
Not sure this kind of intervention is a good idea regardless.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
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speedbird707
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 4:06 pm

It is Logan's Run for airplanes...reach that age and you are eliminated...sad. I hope it doesn't catch on.
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 4:35 pm

Wow! If someone had asked me to name twenty ways to improve South Korean aviation safety, this would not have made the list.

Planes don't fall out the sky because they are old. They do however get a bit more maintenance intensive (costly) with age. With an airline with good engineering skills and facilities coupled with professional oversight by national regulatory bodies, an airliner can fly on safely to its design hours/cycles. It is the bean counters that dictate when an airliner has come to the end of its useful life.
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beechnut
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 5):
Curious. What was the age of aircraft that crashed over the last 10 years?
Or is this just a thinly veiled attempt to clear pilot error (and deliberate action, for that matter) and improve company overal "image".

Lipstick on a pig.
Statistics will prove it.

It's all about image methinks, marketing in other words.

Many airlines boast about having young fleets, e.g. Jetblue. It's good for business to play on the layperson's fears or on the desire for the most up-to-date experience.

Now an entire country will be able to make the boast  

Good thing my plane is not based in Korea, it's 36 years old   

Beech
 
rta
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:04 pm

This rule is incredibly stupid. US airlines fly 20+ year old planes all the time and there's no issues. The planes in the last two incidents at Asiana (a 777 and an A320) were both less than 8 years old.

I'll take a 29 year old Delta plane any day over a brand new plane flown by Korean or Asiana.

[Edited 2015-05-22 10:05:36]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:05 pm

It's misdirection. Look at what we are fixing over here and ignore the safety problems over there.
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enilria
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 34):
This would be terrible for US airlines. This would increase the depreciation rate for airplanes, which would significantly increase leasing prices. This would also destroy freight operators like FedEx, UPS, ABX, Atlas, etc who have most of their fleets over 20 years of age.

Agreed on the cargo side. I don't know why you'd even impose a limit on freighters as the safety issues are much less.
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:20 pm

I fly on KC-135s that are 50+ years old, and they do just fine. Age has nothing to do with it.
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PlaneHunter
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:34 pm

What a nonsense. It won't stop airlines from flying relatively new A320s or 777s into the ground. Just a publicity stunt to distract from more serious issues?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
SIA747Megatop
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 5:59 pm

South Korea is a democracy.

General public believes old planes are unsafe.

Government ministry chalks up new regulation that imposes age limits on commercial aircraft.

Just another populist policy, not something unique to South Korea. I doubt the regulatory body genuinely thinks this policy will improve aviation safety. The negatives aren't crippling and the public's reaction is likely to be positive.
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thekorean
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 6:01 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 46):

Not really, unless you think Koreans are all stupid.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting thekorean (Reply 48):
Not really, unless you think Koreans are all stupid.

I was talking about the politicians' motivation behind the rule, not the public perception.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
COSPN
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RE: Korea To Impose Age Limit On Commercial Aircraft

Fri May 22, 2015 7:41 pm

Emotional not stupid South Korea refused to sign a cease fire in with North Korea in 1953 and stuff refuses .. The U.S. And North Korea signed the cease fire .. And still no peace treaty after 60 years ... It's not logical

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