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irishpower
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Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:20 am

I was just wondering if we will ever see a U.S. carrier provide passenger service to any of these airports on a regular basis (beyond seasonal)?

AUH
IST
BKK
KUL
DOH
AKL
CPH
VIE

These are some pretty busy int'l airports with very limited or no U.S. carriers flying into them.
 
HALFA
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:32 am

Hawaiian Airlines, a U.S. based carrier, flies to AKL on a regular basis 3 times per week from Honolulu, Hawaii, in the United States.  

Aloha,
HALFA
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joeycapps
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:40 am

Last I knew, DL flew from NRT to BKK, if that counts.

I'm pretty sure some of those airports can be accessed from US Airlines through alliance members. I'm thinking that's why there is no direct service on American metal from the US to those destinations. Just my opinion.
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
IST

DL flew there for years, stopping relatively recently.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
BKK

DL still flies there now.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
CPH

DL flew there not too long ago.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
AKL

HA still flies there now.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
DL flew there not too long ago.

They will fly it this summer(the service is only operated in the summer).

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
IST

DL will fly there this summer.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
AUH

When EY buys a stake in an American carrier     
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Thomaas
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:00 am

AUH: UA is the most likely candidate with a link to IAD
IST: Again UA would be the most likely from EWR
BKK: DL flies there from NRT. I don't think it will stick around for too long.
KUL: Can't see any US airline making it work. Tag-ons are generally not profitable.
DOH: UA would make sense from IAD
AKL: HA serves it but I think you could see a return of AA with a QF/JQ code-share.
CPH: Don't think it'll happen anytime soon but would likely be UA or DL
VIE: Very long route to Europe, UA would make sense if they want to increase capacity on a JV route.
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:17 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):
IST: Again UA would be the most likely from EWR

DL has been flying there, seasonally, since last year.
http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=20295&item=124489

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):
VIE: Very long route to Europe, UA would make sense if they want to increase capacity on a JV route.

Long? It's not the UK but it's shorter than FCO and only 150nm longer than MUC.
 
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Miami
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:29 am

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
AUH

Don't see it happening.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
IST

Delta is already there.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
BKK

Delta flies there. Just not from a US airport.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
KUL

Not a chance.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
DOH

I'd love to see AA jump on board but can't see it happening with QR being a OneWorld remember. UA flies there, but not from the US.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
AKL

Hawaiian is already there.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
CPH

I see DL serving from JFK. Maybe UA from EWR.

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
VIE

I can see DL serving from JFK.
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adamh8297
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:51 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):

AUH: UA is the most likely candidate with a link to IAD

No way - unless for some strange reason they drop DXB. Its only 80 miles NE from AUH.

Quoting Miami (Reply 7):
I'd love to see AA jump on board but can't see it happening with QR being a OneWorld remember. UA flies there, but not from the US.

IF QR were to do a JV with AA or join the transatlantic one - AA May be tempted to throw a 789 on the route to maximize connections between an AA hub and DOH.
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Miami
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 8):
unless for some strange reason they drop DXB

They did IAD-DOH-DXB before.

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 8):
IF QR were to do a JV with AA or join the transatlantic one

Doesn't seem likely.
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):
BKK: DL flies there from NRT. I don't think it will stick around for too long.

Based on what?

DL just scored a major contract (from UA) on that route... which is why UA is no longer on it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 2:36 am

UA had an EWR-IST flight for a year or two post-merger on a two cabin 763 but couldn't make it work. They also operated DOH as a tag on from IAD-DXB for years up until last year (just like the IAD-KWI-BAH flight, which is still around). UA dumped BKK which was from NRT last October. I believe they've served both CPH and VIE from IAD and/or EWR (as CO), but it's been several years.

There are issues with all of the airports listed that generally explains things.


AUH: Not a huge amount of business ties and very little tourism. It will change in the future, but it'll be a few years.

IST: TK is a powerful competitor; Star membership makes it easy for UA to leave up to TK. It hasn't proved particularly high-yielding for US carriers.

BKK: Trash yields and is too far from the US to make a ULH flight turn a profit; intra-Asia tags are the only way to make it work, but US carriers can't compete on product or service. And the yields are still trash.

KUL: Low numbers, not particularly high yielding, and very, very far away from the US. It's only possible with a tag on, but I don't see that happening any time soon. There are too few business ties between the two and it isn't a tourist destination for Americans.

DOH: Same issues as AUH.

AKL: Probably the most likely on the list to get service from CONUS, and probably from UA or AA. NZ's Star membership, like TK/IST, has made it easy for UA to leave to them. UA planned on IAH-AKL service with the 789, but pulled the flight to get back at Houston for giving WN an FIS at HOU.

CPH/VIE: Both served by carriers in the A++ JV for Star, so UA has had no need to service these routes for several years. OS has somewhat limited US service (consistently operates to IAD) and CPH with SK has the major US Star hubs. They're both secondary European destinations easily served by US carriers from major hubs via partner airlines or convenient train service.
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 4:04 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 7):
Maybe UA from EWR.

SK does the route already. Loads aren't outstanding that they could use extra capacity, but they are there. Being in the same alliance with UA it wouldn't make much sense

DY does JFK, not sure what the loads for that are though.
Clear skies and strong tail winds.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 4:40 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):
BKK: DL flies there from NRT. I don't think it will stick around for too long.

Based on what?

DL just scored a major contract (from UA) on that route... which is why UA is no longer on it.

1) DL's shrinking NRT hubs means that they are slowly but surely killing the feed for their BKK flight. They also compete with numerous Asian airlines that offer a better product/service from the US to Thailand.

2) Their ability to draw local traffic is minimal. Not only do they have to compete with the likes of NH and JL that offer a superior product, they also compete with many one-stop options on CX, BR, CI, CA and CZ, as well as non-stops from TG.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 5:46 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 11):
but US carriers can't compete on product or service

Other than by doing just that: that all day, every day, of course.  



Quoting Thomaas (Reply 13):
DL's shrinking NRT hubs means that they are slowly but surely killing the feed for their BKK flight

I doubt DL (and NW before it) was taking much in the way of intra-Asian traffic to/from Thailand, the Japanese authorities were always finicky about that (especially in NW's venture between Japan and Australia).

And most of the cuts to DL's NRT hub has been on the Asian side. They still service NRT westbound from ATL, JFK, DTW, MSP, SEA, PDX, and LAX-- plenty of potential feed for that flight, which again, is supported by a hefty contract on top of it all.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 9:30 am

Quoting joeycapps (Reply 2):
Last I knew, DL flew from NRT to BKK, if that counts.
Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
Last I knew, DL flew from NRT to BKK, if that counts.

But, but, but, 5th freedom and open skies are totally wrong and UNFAIR!!!
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bobnwa
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 10):
DL just scored a major contract (from UA) on that route... which is why UA is no longer on it.

Care to let us know who this contract is with or is the info forbidden under the Official Secrets Act?
 
burnsie28
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:15 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):
Care to let us know who this contract is with or is the info forbidden under the Official Secrets Act?

From the thread that talked about UA pulling out of BKK

Quote:
I think one of the main reasons that UA is pulling out is because they lost the government contract that brings
US Government employees to Bangkok. My friend, who works for the State Department in Bangkok said the contract
with United was due to expire, they put it out to rebid, and Delta won it this time around.
 
klwright69
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:21 pm

This is pretty well covered already.

AUH is near DXB and not a big market, EY is too strong. The UAE is saturated with airlines and air service, seriously.

DOH has even fewer attractions than AUH. I took QR from DFW to DOH. There were only about 15 people terminating in DOH. And even that count might have been too high. Everybody else was in transit. That is what you call a teeny tiny local market, wouldn't you say? AUH and DOH are not big places. I have spent time in both.

DXB has some US carriers because it is a huge market. But who knows either DL or UA could be pushed out in the future, or maybe not.

Why not ask if RUH or JED will get a US flag carrier back? Now that's interesting.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 13):

On top of all that, the local traffic much prefers BKK-HND
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 2:03 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 9):

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 8):
unless for some strange reason they drop DXB

They did IAD-DOH-DXB before.

referring to AUH service not DOH

Quoting Miami (Reply 9):
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 8):
IF QR were to do a JV with AA or join the transatlantic one

Doesn't seem likely.


After "Airlines Unions for Fair Skies while the US3 trims our hubs and the real jobs" and "Partnership for Open and Fair Skies when it benefits DL" loses steam, is forgotten, or somehow resolved, there's a chance.

Did you ever think QR was going to join an alliance?
Did you ever think QF would tie up with EK in the face of all their OW partners?

AA was strongly considering a tie-up with EK before QR joined OneWorld. Lets say PHL-DOH is better served with an AA 788 or ORD/MIA needs a seasonal frequency adjustment that QR cannot do. It would be wise for AA/QR to investigate the benefits of this - maybe the numbers do not work out or AAB doesn't show Doug Parker the books on their longhaul flights.
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flaps30
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 3:13 pm

Considering the US only has 3 "legacy" carriers left, its not like in the past when we had many Intl carriers to serve the globe.
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ua900
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 3:48 pm

AUH - ME 3 owned. UA already flies to KWI, DXB and BAH, and these flights are propped up by government contracts, including State Dept.
IST- UA tried very recently. I don't see how this can work given TK's aggressive expansion at IST and the lack of collaboration between UA and TK
BKK - Low yield, perhaps once BKK and TG recover
KUL - SIN should be the #1 reason there, same as with CGK
DOH - See AUH issue. Additional middle east airports work best as tag. LX and LH are doing this too.
AKL - Shame that the Pacific Rim / Southern hemisphere is under served by U.S. carriers, perhaps AKL is the most likely place to see US3 service soon. Of course they'd have to get up to the service level of HA first   
CPH - We sometimes talk about ARN or OSL getting axed if 757s stop flying TATL. As it stands, SK has CPH-US market covered for those who don't connect in AMS, LHR or FRA.
VIE - Nice town, but ZRH, MUC and FRA are apparently too close. Just ask PRG, BTS, SZZ, RLG etc airport mgmt what they think of their respective immediate neighbors.
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 4:15 pm

Both DL and UA have served CPH in the past, but SK has a dominant position there and I do not see that this would change anytime soon. AC also operates out of CPH with connections throughout the U.S. through YYZ
 
bmacleod
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting irishpower (Thread starter):
DOH
AKL
CPH
VIE
DOH - Unless I'm wrong AA codeshares through LHR on QR
AKL - UA codesharing LAX and SFO on NZ
CPH - UA codesharing though LHR SK
VIE - Too much codesharing LH BA AF and OS for any US carrier to dive in.

[Edited 2015-05-23 10:19:31]
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Sightseer
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 5:45 pm

BKK and AKL already see regular service from DL and HA, and IST and CPH are seasonal on DL. Since OS is part of the *A TATL JV, I doubt UA has much incentive to start VIE, and I can't see DL doing it. And I would be surprised to see any US airline flying nonstop to AUH or DOH, or to KUL at all. Not enough passengers or revenue to justify it.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 19):

My limited personal experience is that DL doesn't fight all that hard for local traffic on intra-Asia flights, save the beach markets. They seem more interested in US-bound passengers.
 
Capt.Fantastic
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 5:57 pm

As has been stated already, Delta serves both CPH and IST seasonally from JFK.
It seems some people are missing that.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
Other than by doing just that: that all day, every day, of course.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a supporter of the US3 and have had elite status for years on one of them. However, Asian airlines have a level of service (both hard and soft product) that just can't be matched by US carriers. I have flown in F and J on UA numerous times and have always had a great experience. Last month, I flew CX F from LAX-HKG, and there wasn't even a comparison. Even CX Y+ blows UA out of the water. US airlines competing with these carriers on intra-Asian service are at a number of distinct disadvantages. They do step up and offer services not offered on US domestic in a decade or more, but both DL and UA have done nothing but contract their operations from NRT in recent years due to weak financial performance. They've stripped away service between some pretty key markets, as UA has done from NRT to BKK and HKG. If they could compete, they wouldn't cede flights they've operated for many, many years to codeshare partners.

That was my point -- it wasn't an attempt to disparage the US3, but rather state their unfortunate reality.
 
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 6:32 pm

What about BUD? With Malev, AA, and DL pulling their services from JFK years ago, no one has filled the spot since obviously due to no feed on the BUD end. Could a US-BUD flight be started back just like Air Transat started YYZ/YUL-BUD?

Cheers,
KLAXAirport   
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
However, Asian airlines have a level of service (both hard and soft product) that just can't be matched by US carriers.

It doesn't HAVE to be matched, for them to effectively compete; that's the point you seem to be missing.



Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 27):
but rather state their unfortunate reality.

Yes, but the true unfortunate reality, that "service!" groupies sooooo often miss, is that:

1) that's not the US3's market,
2) they'll never be able to emulate that (due in no small part to the structure of their route network and fleet), so
3) they don't waste their time/efforts/resources trying to, on any equivalent level.

And they do just fine.

If "service" and amenities were the be-all-end-all that people on this site make them out to be: then WN would be stagnant & struggling for market, and VX would be making billions & expanding like wildfire...... oh, wait.

[Edited 2015-05-23 12:30:32]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting KLAXAirport (Reply 28):

GW has also just started YYZ-BUD service.
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen besser.
 
deltadudejg
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 10:05 pm

Delta already served VIE from ATL first and later from JFK. All were operated using a 767-300.
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sat May 23, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting deltadudejg (Reply 31):
Delta already served VIE from ATL first and later from JFK. All were operated using a 767-300.

With your choice of liveries:


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atcsundevil
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sun May 24, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 29):
It doesn't HAVE to be matched, for them to effectively compete; that's the point you seem to be missing.

They aren't matching service, and as a result, DL and UA have significantly contracted intra-Asia service in recent years. Contraction generally means they aren't able to compete effectively in certain markets because they aren't generating (enough) revenue, which would be different if they were offering standards and prices in comparison to the competition, among other factors. It's a pretty basic concept that you are apparently choosing to overlook. If they aren't competing effectively between some markets in the region causing them to contract operations, then just what am I missing? Simply because they're operating the routes doesn't mean they're competing effectively, so I'd suggest you not confuse the two.

Just a word of advice: Maybe find a more diplomatic way of telling someone you believe they're missing something, especially when your argument doesn't exactly hold up -- it's pretty rude when my previous response to you was not in any way personal. I don't know what your background is...if you've actually worked in the industry or if you're a hobbyist...I actually spent a lot of years studying and working in the field and analyzing subjects exactly like this, so I'm not a complete idiot. You might want to consider those factors in your future responses.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 29):
Yes, but the true unfortunate reality, that "service!" groupies sooooo often miss, is that:

1) that's not the US3's market,
2) they'll never be able to emulate that (due in no small part to the structure of their route network and fleet), so
3) they don't waste their time/efforts/resources trying to, on any equivalent level.

And they do just fine.

If "service" and amenities were the be-all-end-all that people on this site make them out to be: then WN would be stagnant & struggling for market, and VX would be making billions & expanding like wildfire...... oh, wait.

I'm not sure what you mean by "service groupies", but alright. As to your list: Just because it isn't your home market doesn't mean you shouldn't cater to the market you're operating, which is why they both make a legitimate attempt to do just that, it's just insufficient in some cases. If you think that they don't waste their time/efforts/resources trying to emulate, you are very, very wrong. Clearly you've never been to the HKG UA Club. It easily competes with being one of the best lounges in the airport, and at least prior to the opening of the new lounge at LHR, no other UA Club (or RCC previous to the merger) came within a mile of it. DL even operates (or at least used to) a specific aircraft configuration for the NRT market. They both offer meal service regardless of the length of flight, and before UA expanded Y alcohol service, they offered free alcohol in all classes on flights to and within Asia -- the only portion of their network with such amenities for many years. They stopped offering this for several months last year, which they quickly reversed, indicating that it played a factor on some level. So yes, they did/do make quite the extra effort.

Just to clarify, I never once said that they weren't "doing just fine" or that they weren't able to compete at all. Obviously they're generating a profit if they're still operating a NRT hub, and I never suggested otherwise. What I was referring to was the market contraction they've both had in recent years, particularly UA, which includes the discontinuation of a number of routes, and marketing fewer seats on others. My assertion was that they would be more successful with enhanced service levels, which you seem to have focused in on and blown into a larger discussion than I had ever intended. I have no idea what literally any of this has to do with WN and VX because they fulfill different niches; UA and DL are directly competing against airlines who largely have higher standards while charging similar prices, putting them in the same category of carriers. UA and DL manage this effectively on many routes due to their hub feed, but flop on others (UA on BKK-NRT or HKG-NRT, for example). In this case, service levels play an important factor when they're already at a disadvantage outside of their home market. Asia in particular is a market where service levels are hugely important, more so than any other region in the world. The growth of LCCs has changed this to an extent, but not for those passengers booking on legacy carriers.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sun May 24, 2015 7:33 am

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 33):
Simply because they're operating the routes doesn't mean they're competing effectively, so I'd suggest you not confuse the two.

Hmm, based on that, seems you're confusing "effective competition" with "equivalent competition."

And while what you stated may hold true on a route-by-route basis, but not in the aggregate of operations--- airlines generally don't operate routes that present an opportunity cost to the whole of their operation, which inability to effectively compete with a competitor would cause.


Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 33):
Just because it isn't your home market doesn't mean you shouldn't cater to the market you're operating

If the cost of doing so to any significant degree beyond services you typically provide on a comparable longhaul, doesn't return sufficient premium to justify, then why would you?

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 33):
Clearly you've never been to the HKG UA Club

You mean, other than this pic I just took while in it a few months ago, right?  
https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/s720x720/1625542_10103641292827015_6060048436549040383_n.jpg?oh=1e71c88c6b7c99bc4c0c00e65a03f340&oe=55CAC5AE


Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 33):
It easily competes with being one of the best lounges in the airport

Hardly. It's decent, but absolutely nothing to write home about.

[Edited 2015-05-24 00:39:37]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Freshside3
Posts: 1591
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 am

RE: Will We Ever See A U.S. Carrier At These Airports?

Sun May 24, 2015 9:41 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 30):
GW has also just started YYZ-BUD service.

The lack of interline agreements with GW isn't helping the rest of Canada, and the USA. But they are new, and we need to give it time, and they may possibly get some in the future.

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