Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
dcaord
Topic Author
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:47 pm

WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 12:25 am

Does WN taxi much quicker (when possible) than other airlines? And take off at a much steeper climb to get to cruise quicker than others? I know they're all about saving time to save money, and notice this every time i fly them, but not sure if it is an illusion or actuality.
 
YXwatcherMKE
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 3:06 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 12:42 am

Does WN taxi faster than other carriers? Yes they do. Do they climb quicker, No I don't think so. I was on WN just last week and that was what found Because someone I know as me that question a while ago.
I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
 
LH707330
Posts: 2439
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 12:46 am

They often fly shorter routes on 73Gs, so they're lighter and hence climb faster.
 
29erUSA187
Posts: 1277
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:34 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 2):

  

They taxi faster and do more rolling take offs in order to reduce turn around times. When spotting at SAN, they'll come ripping down the taxi way, slam on the brakes, make a turn, and take off, all in a few seconds. Its crazy fun to watch.
 
flyiguy
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 2:21 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 2:56 am

Well considering they get paid by the trip ala mileage and not time from brakes released to brakes set, the faster they go, then technically the more they get paid...pros and cons to that

FLY
The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
 
WNCrew
Posts: 1002
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:03 am

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 4):
and not time from brakes released to brakes set, the faster they go, then technically the more they get paid...pros and cons to that

Actually we all start getting paid as soon as the door is closed and brakes are released, until brakes set and door opens. (YES this includes pilots)
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SXDFC
Posts: 2106
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:07 am

How ironic is it that I flew in a Cessna with a WN CA who got mad at me for taxiing fast.   
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3636
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting dcaord (Thread starter):
And take off at a much steeper climb to get to cruise quicker than others?

No. When not regulated by ATC all airlines use software that evaluates optimal climb rates to minimize fuel burn and variable costs. The onboard computer contains formulae that include crew costs, maintenance, etc which it then balances with fuel savings to calculate the optimum figures.
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1466
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:14 am

73Gs also have great takeoff performance and can do so in very short distances compared to the 738s and 739s so it may just seem much faster when comparing to other carriers, who fly a higher majority of 738/739's than 73Gs.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:19 am

Jesus, here we - again.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 3):
They taxi faster and do more rolling take offs in order to reduce turn around times. When spotting at SAN, they'll come ripping down the taxi way, slam on the brakes, make a turn, and take off, all in a few seconds. Its crazy fun to watch.

No, no and no. "Ripping" and "slam"? Seriously insulting. Seriously. We get cleared to line up and wait or for take-off just like every other airline. "Rolling Take-offs" have absolutely nothing to do with turn times. Honestly our shortest scheduled turn time averages 35 minutes, with some approaching an hour.

Quoting flyiguy (Reply 4):
Well considering they get paid by the trip ala mileage and not time from brakes released to brakes set, the faster they go, then technically the more they get paid...pros and cons to that

Incorrect. I absolutely don't understand why this urban myth prevails. We get paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater - and it's been that way for at least the last 25 years. There is no incentive to go fast.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1517
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:37 am

I've noticed WN is faster and quicker as well but honestly I just assumed it was because they had a lot of ex military pilots used to flying more nimble planes than a 737.

Its better than AA which for a time incentivized taking your time by paying hourly or something.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:42 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 10):
I've noticed WN is faster and quicker as well but honestly I just assumed it was because they had a lot of ex military pilots used to flying more nimble planes than a 737.

We're roughly half military, half civilian. And remember, military doesn't at all mean smaller a/c - many come from the C-5, C-141, C-17 etc.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 838
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:44 am

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 7):
The onboard computer contains formulae that include crew costs, maintenance, etc which it then balances with fuel savings to calculate the optimum figures.

You should have stopped with your first sentence. Unless times have really changed since I retired, none of these factors enter into an aircraft climb profile with the possible exception of fuel savings. But even then, climb profiles are pretty standard with aircraft type and airline procedures and aren't changed much. Sure the computer my give you a target airspeed/mach to climb, but I find it hard to believe 'crew costs' have anything to do with it.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:47 am

Retired - you're spot on  

The cost index (cost of fuel) wind and weight will affect the climb speed - that's about it.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Rdh3e
Posts: 3636
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:09 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 12):
Sure the computer my give you a target airspeed/mach to climb, but I find it hard to believe 'crew costs' have anything to do with it.

More to due with cruise speed, but it's optimizing the overall profile of the flight is my point. Not just "get there faster" as the poster was implying.
 
trnswrld
Posts: 1392
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 2:19 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 5:21 am

As an air traffic controller in the Chicago area I can say Southwest 737-700's get up and go. We typically have to merge ORD and MDW departures and 95% of the time priority always goes to Southwest as they often want FL390-410 and will significantly out climb everyone else. I personally love working with those guys!
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6607
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 5:40 am

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 1):
Do they climb quicker, No I don't think so.

They do, but as already noted that's purely because their aircraft have superior performance to most of the competition's. There really isn't any other airliner out there, except maybe a lightly loaded 752, that can match a 73G with the high-thrust option in terms of climb performance.

It's fun to be aboard when they rocket straight from the runway up to FL400 or FL410.

Quoting barney captain (Reply 9):
We get cleared to line up and wait or for take-off just like every other airline.

Anecdotally, I have to say I've experienced more taxiing on WN than on all other airlines combined that made me say "Hey, this seems faster than I expected" from the back. Statistically, of course, that means nothing. And my last taxi that felt surprisingly fast was on AS.
 
Passedv1
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:40 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:07 am

Quoting barney captain (Reply 9):

Incorrect. I absolutely don't understand why this urban myth prevails. We get paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater - and it's been that way for at least the last 25 years. There is no incentive to go fast.

Are you a pilot? Is it not true that you get paid by trip (TFP)? Didn't SWA invent the whole concept of a TFP? Doesn't your management and SWAPA have an agreed upon conversion factor between TFP and fligth hour so that comparisons can be made to other airlines? If a flight was scheduled 0800-1000, you managed to depart early at 0750 but because of enroute delays you still arrived at 1000, would you get the extra 10 minutes of pay?
 
WNCrew
Posts: 1002
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:22 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:38 am

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 17):
Are you a pilot? Is it not true that you get paid by trip (TFP)? Didn't SWA invent the whole concept of a TFP? Doesn't your management and SWAPA have an agreed upon conversion factor between TFP and fligth hour so that comparisons can be made to other airlines? If a flight was scheduled 0800-1000, you managed to depart early at 0750 but because of enroute delays you still arrived at 1000, would you get the extra 10 minutes of pay?

Yes WN pays by TFP which equals 243 miles rounded up or down to the nearest forty (40) mile increment. I believe it's equal to approx :55min of flight time. In your example, simply releasing the brakes :10 earlier and landing at the same scheduled time: while it seems simple to say you'd get :10min extra pay, it's not so. We have an "Overfly" calculation in place, so :10 = .2TFP.

"...for flights which actually operate in excess of the scheduled block time. Such premium will apply to each flight segment and will be paid at the rate of one-tenth (0.1) trip for each five (5) minutes in excess of such flight’s scheduled block time, truncated to the nearest five (5) minutes."
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
phillyramp270
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:06 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 12:04 pm

When there's no traffic... WN's be taxing at speeds up to 40 mph, I know that cause I'm doing 50 mph on the outer service road in PHL
Barack Obama is not a foreign born, brown skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away healthcare. You're thinking of Jesu
 
mark2fly1034
Posts: 251
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:38 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 1:36 pm

SWA pilots are called the cowboys of the skies for a reason  
 
26point2
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 1:38 pm

I have seen, time and again from both inside and outside the WN 737, a high speed line up/rolling take off. Where others ease onto the runway and line up..then apply TO thrust WN often is applying TO thrust during the line up maneuver. Nothing wrong with but certainly not a smooth style of flying from a pax perspective.

Also, I used to cringe if following a WN on visual approach as they often had a bad habit of flying the entire final approach at or near flight idle. or so it seemed from 5 miles in trail, which required a steeper than normal approach and a likely encounter with their wake turbulence unless my approach was equally as steep. Particularly bad at KSJC. Seems to me they have stopped this practice? I haven't seen it for a several years thankfully.
 
LH707330
Posts: 2439
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 4:48 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
I have seen, time and again from both inside and outside the WN 737, a high speed line up/rolling take off. Where others ease onto the runway and line up..then apply TO thrust WN often is applying TO thrust during the line up maneuver. Nothing wrong with but certainly not a smooth style of flying from a pax perspective.

Why waste time? When you think about it, short haul carriers spend relatively more time taxiing, so it makes sense to taxi faster to make up that time.
 
futureorthopod
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:08 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 6:43 pm

I've always enjoyed the fast WN taxi and then "California Roll" take off. I recall on several occasions when departing from LAX and SAN especially how the pilot begins his take off roll even before turning completely on to the runway. It is exhilarating. LOL
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 7:09 pm

Quoting PassedV1 (Reply 17):
Are you a pilot? Is it not true that you get paid by trip (TFP)? Didn't SWA invent the whole concept of a TFP? Doesn't your management and SWAPA have an agreed upon conversion factor between TFP and fligth hour so that comparisons can be made to other airlines? If a flight was scheduled 0800-1000, you managed to depart early at 0750 but because of enroute delays you still arrived at 1000, would you get the extra 10 minutes of pay?

Yes, I am. In your example, we would indeed get the extra 10 minutes of pay - or overfly as it's called. Your TFP scenario ignores the fact that our conversion factor is based mileage or time - whichever is greater.

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 19):
When there's no traffic... WN's be taxing at speeds up to 40 mph, I know that cause I'm doing 50 mph on the outer service road in PHL

Our max speed on straight taxiways is 30kts. I know that because I've been driving them for 20+ years.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
I have seen, time and again from both inside and outside the WN 737, a high speed line up/rolling take off. Where others ease onto the runway and line up..then apply TO thrust WN often is applying TO thrust during the line up maneuver.

Rolling take-offs are done by most if not all airlines and are not unique to WN in any way.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 21):
Also, I used to cringe if following a WN on visual approach as they often had a bad habit of flying the entire final approach at or near flight idle. or so it seemed from 5 miles in trail, which required a steeper than normal approach and a likely encounter with their wake turbulence unless my approach was equally as steep. Particularly bad at KSJC. Seems to me they have stopped this practice? I haven't seen it for a several years thankfully.

Ideally all visual approaches should be an idle descent with a spool-up approaching 1000'. Again, hardly unique to WN. The reason you would eat our wake going into SJC, was the requirement to cross KLIDE (17 dme) at 5000'. This always put us (and everyone else) high on profile. It's a noise abatement thing - you can thank the NIMBY's.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
747400sp
Posts: 3900
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 7:16 pm

I was told that WN, use max thrust on take off, so they may climb faster than other airlines. When they take off, you can hear that their engines are near or at full power.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Rolling take-offs are done by most if not all airlines and are not unique to WN in any way.

Point of order: FAA regs do not allow a controller to issue a rolling take-off clearance to a heavy jet.

[Edited 2015-05-26 12:40:08]
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 7:39 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Our max speed on straight taxiways is 30kts. I know that because I've been driving them for 20+ years.

A little faster than a man can walk?     

Okay, it's been years since I've seen that one anywhere as a recommended taxi speed.

Still, before GPS, did you guys have access to that info in your cockpits? I would imagine the needle isn't alive at 30 KTS on a 737 airspeed indicator...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
tylersmithsjc
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:52 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 7:46 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Ideally all visual approaches should be an idle descent with a spool-up approaching 1000'. Again, hardly unique to WN. The reason you would eat our wake going into SJC, was the requirement to cross KLIDE (17 dme) at 5000'. This always put us (and everyone else) high on profile. It's a noise abatement thing - you can thank the NIMBY's.

Yep. All those high rises and development in down town. Its not like the airport has been around for 60+ years...
SJC/CLD
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 838
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 8:07 pm

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 25):
I was told that WN, use max thrust on take off, so they may climb faster than other airlines.

Max available thrust (thrust levers firewalled) is seldom used by airliners in normal operations. Heavyweight and short runways may require near max thrust but doing so shortens the life of the engines. 'Flex power', 'Reduced Power', 'Climb thrust' are all reductions and used to save engine wear.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 27):
Still, before GPS, did you guys have access to that info in your cockpits?

Not sure about older 737s, but prior to GPS there were INS and IRS. These provided GS readouts. 747 max taxi speeds were 25kts. Of course that aircraft was a little less maneuverable than a 737.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 26):
Point of order: FAA regs do not allow a controller to issue a rolling take-off clearance to a heavy jet.

I don't think anybody said they did. .. But they use the term 'immediate' often. Like 'Cleared for immediate T/O' which implies somebody is on short final.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 8:25 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):
Not sure about older 737s, but prior to GPS there were INS and IRS. These provided GS readouts. 747 max taxi speeds were 25kts. Of course that aircraft was a little less maneuverable than a 737.

I'm wondering how many 737's actually had an INS or IRS unit installed...I've heard that most domestic US 737 (-200) flying was using VOR/DME and occasional NDB navigation.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3578
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 8:42 pm

While this may not have to do with climb performance, SWA (as well as some other carriers) have company-specific SIDs for primary airports which potentially get them up and away from the airport faster than other airlines that use the publicly available ones. For those who are not aware, a SID (standard instrument departure) is a pre-established route that aircraft use to leave the airport's airspace and/or control area.
If you flew today, thank a Flight Dispatcher!
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 8:52 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):
I don't think anybody said they did
Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Rolling take-offs are done by most if not all airlines

'This reply pretty much lumped every carrier into the "rolling take-offs are OK" bunch. I'm being picky here but technically, not all aircraft/airlines can be issued a rolling take-off clearance.

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):
But they use the term 'immediate' often. Like 'Cleared for immediate T/O' which implies somebody is on short final.

If someone were on short final the words "go around" would be much more appropriate unless you were on an aircraft carrier.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 9:02 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 32):
I'm being picky here but technically, not all aircraft/airlines can be issued a rolling take-off clearance

I've never heard of or been given a "rolling take-off clearance". It's simply a take-off clearance. What you chose to do with it is up to you - no?

Unless prohibited by FOM/SOP or some other acronym, there's nothing that prevents a pilot from doing one. I'm not sure where this being "cleared" for one is coming from. I've seen DL, AA, US, F9 and just about every other airline utilize them, as it's an authorized Boeing and Airbus procedure. In some performance cases, it's actually preferred.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
aklrno
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Dec 04, 2010 11:18 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 9:37 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 33):

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 32):
I'm being picky here but technically, not all aircraft/airlines can be issued a rolling take-off clearance

I've never heard of or been given a "rolling take-off clearance". It's simply a take-off clearance. What you chose to do with it is up to you - no?

Unless prohibited by FOM/SOP or some other acronym, there's nothing that prevents a pilot from doing one. I'm not sure where this being "cleared" for one is coming from. I've seen DL, AA, US, F9 and just about every other airline utilize them, as it's an authorized Boeing and Airbus procedure. In some performance cases, it's actually preferred.

There is something about this I don't understand. If the checklist is complete and you are cleared for takeoff, what is the advantage of a full stop before departure? Is there a stop sign at the beginning of the runway? Is there a need to wait for cross traffic? If the man (or woman) says go, why not just go? I been at some places where they spool up the engines before releasing the brakes, but that is only where the runway is short. SNA (and aircraft carriers) come to mind.

If I'm approaching a stop sign or red light in my car and a policeman waves me on, I don't stop. I just do what I'm told. Why is it different for airplanes?
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 838
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 9:45 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 32):
If someone were on short final the words "go around" would be much more appropriate

Not to belabor the point or get anal here ,'short final' to me means inside 4 or 5 miles. If I'd have said 'final' then that could mean 15-20 miles. If you're in position and holding and cleared for an immediate, then an aircraft on 3 mile 'short' final should have no problem landing. Your definition may be something different but I'll defer to an ATC guy/gal.
 
26point2
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 24):
Ideally all visual approaches should be an idle descent with a spool-up approaching 1000'. Again, hardly unique to WN. The reason you would eat our wake going into SJC, was the requirement to cross KLIDE (17 dme) at 5000'. This always put us (and everyone else) high on profile. It's a noise abatement thing - you can thank the NIMBY's.

No NIBMYs live below KLIDE. Farms and open space essentially. The new RNAV SILCN 1 arrival now has an "at or above 4000" at KLIDE. Presumably RNAV 1 criteria allow for closer terrain tolerances. Regardless, the 30L G/S crosses KLIDE at 5000' so this altitude restriction is part of a normal profile but SWA had a habit of staying high above g/s until closer in...thus the need for following a/c to avoid the wake. There is no noise procedure or requirement to fly anything other than a normal approach at SJC.

As I said earlier this practice seems to have gone by the wayside from my experience.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:14 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 33):
I've never heard of or been given a "rolling take-off clearance". It's simply a take-off clearance. What you chose to do with it is up to you - no?

I've heard ATC say "keep it rolling, cleared takeoff runway XY", suggesting they want you to be gone quickly. Not sure whether that's technically a "rolling take-off clearance".
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:29 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 36):
Regardless, the 30L G/S crosses KLIDE at 5000' so this altitude restriction is part of a normal profile but SWA had a habit of staying high above g/s until closer in...thus the need for following a/c to avoid the wake.

Not the ILS 30L plate I'm looking at page 11-2 dated 13 MAR 15. It shows KLIDE at 4000' - as does the RNAV. When cleared for a visual, it has been my experience that 100% of the time we got "cross KLIDE at 5000', cleared for the VIS" - which puts you high. Why would we intentionally stay high on the GS? It only complicates the approach. I asked many moons ago about this and approach told us it was for noise. It wouldn't be the first time we did something to mitigate noise over a corn field.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
User avatar
usair330
Posts: 706
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 12:48 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 19):
When there's no traffic... WN's be taxing at speeds up to 40 mph, I know that cause I'm doing 50 mph on the outer service road in PHL

I doubt that. If im not mistaken the service road max speed at PHL is 25. And for you to be taxing along side a WN 737 doing 50mph on the service road it must have been past midnight and that might of been a ferry flight or something. There's always traffic on the service road @ PHL even on a sunday. You might want to check if whatever truck or equipment you were using has a faulty speedometer.
 
Kaiarahi
Posts: 1810
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:55 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:37 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 37):
I've heard ATC say "keep it rolling, cleared takeoff runway XY"

They may have, but it's not standard terminology. I've only ever heard "immediate", which the crew decides how to execute, whether rolling or not.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
DualQual
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:10 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 33):

Neither have I ever been cleared for a rolling takeoff.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 32):

Tower issues a takeoff clearance. If you're ready and want to take it on the roll, you do. If you've lined up and waited and are stopped, you'll go from a stop. The livery on the side of the ship is irrelevant. It's not specific to any carrier.

Quoting aklrno (Reply 34):

No advantage to stopping at all. If you're cleared on the roll, you'll go on a roll unless airport/company/fleet procedure would dictate otherwise.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
26point2
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 11:15 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 38):
Not the ILS 30L plate I'm looking at page 11-2 dated 13 MAR 15. It shows KLIDE at 4000' - as does the RNAV

Ummm...the approach profile has you cross KILDE at or above 4000' but the G/S crosses KILDE at 5000'. These are different. Tell ya what, next time you cross KLIDE at 5000' see where your 30L G/S indicator is. I surmise you will be right on G/S.

You owe me one beer.
 
User avatar
jetblastdubai
Posts: 2021
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:23 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Tue May 26, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 35):
Your definition may be something different but I'll defer to an ATC guy/gal.

I've been a controller both at FAA facilities and ICAO facilities for over 30 years including being an OJTI (trainer) at every one including ORD, LAX and DXB. I have a pretty good idea what the FAA terms are and I'll post the regs below. Short final for most of us is inside 1/2 mile final. If there was traffic on a 5-mile final at ORD, that would be considered a 2 airplane departure gap.

A pilot will never hear the words "rolling takeoff" because it's not something that is used in ATC phraseology. It's an FAA term used when an aircraft is given a take-off clearance without being instructed to "line up and wait" first. The reason the FAA doesn't allow rolling take-offs with heavy jets is to reduce the chance of wake turbulence or jetblast incidents. Reading the regs literally, ATC cannot even instruct heavy jets "expedite" or do anything that might require more than normal taxi power for the same reason.

7110.65:

2−1−5. EXPEDITIOUS COMPLIANCE
a. Use the word “immediately” only when expeditious compliance is required to avoid an imminent situation.

3−7−3. GROUND OPERATIONS
WAKE TURBULENCE APPLICATION

Avoid clearances which require:
a. Heavy jet aircraft to use greater than normal taxiing power.

3-9-6. WAKE TURBULENCE APPLICATION

c. Do not issue clearances which imply or indicate approval of rolling takeoffs by heavy jet aircraft except as provided in para 3−1−14, Ground Operations When Volcanic Ash is Present.
 
User avatar
barney captain
Posts: 2428
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Wed May 27, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 42):
Ummm...the approach profile has you cross KILDE at or above 4000' but the G/S crosses KILDE at 5000'. These are different. Tell ya what, next time you cross KLIDE at 5000' see where your 30L G/S indicator is. I surmise you will be right on G/S.

You owe me one beer.

I see your point about where the GS intersects KLIDE, but the ILS clearly shows KLIDE AT 4000'.

Regardless, we're talking about a visual which has ALWAYS been issued with KLIDE at 5000'. This may put you on GS - which is precisely the problem unless you've already begun to configure. The 737 doesn't like to maintain GS and continue to slow down, which is why so many end up above it in attempt to get slowed and configured. The NG is better at it because of higher flap extension speeds, but the classic, not so much.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
737tdi
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:05 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Wed May 27, 2015 4:35 am

I will defer to Barney but I fly cockpit a lot, I also taxi aircraft everyday. Relative speed viewed from outside the aircraft is inaccurate. As a mech. I am limited to 20 knots. taxi speed. I never even get close to that. I have been told multiple times at relatively unfamiliar airports to increase my taxi speed. I can say with complete confidence that WN pilots do not exceed FAA/airport taxi speeds. If you have taxied or ridden in a WN cockpit then you can argue the point. If not then you just need to let this idea meet it's sunset. It does not happen. Let it go for my sake, I am just so sick of hearing it and it is just untrue. Unless you have a radar gun you have no idea of the taxi speed! We use the ADIRU to determine ground speed so I think it is a bit more accurate then your opinion. Plus I haven't heard of one official complaint except mine when I was taxiing to slow. Have a nice day.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Wed May 27, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 43):
except as provided in para 3−1−14, Ground Operations When Volcanic Ash is Present.

Now that piques my curiosity..
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6530
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Thu May 28, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting RetiredWeasel (Reply 29):
Max available thrust (thrust levers firewalled) is seldom used by airliners in normal operations.

I'm going to be nitpickiy here but your comment is not technically accurate. Full un-derated takeoff thrust is NOT maximum available thrust or thrust levers firewalled. I don't know the 737 very well, but on other Boeing models the autothrottle will place the thrust levers a bit back from the forward stops. That is the takeoff thrust limit, but not firewall power or maximum available thrust.

The procedures say you can select firewall power if terrain contact is imminent. On FADEC airplanes the EEC will prevent N1 and N2 exceedences.
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 838
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

RE: WN Taxi And Takeoff Like A Rocket

Thu May 28, 2015 2:55 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 47):
'm going to be nitpickiy here but your comment is not technically accurate

Technically you're correct..but I was just replying to poster who heard the WN uses 'max thrust' on their takeoffs. On another note most of my time was in older Boeings that didn't use autothrottles for takeoff. Heck on some of the older (maybe mis-trimmed) 742s, getting the takeoff EPR might require pushing the thrust levers all the way to the stop. During the roll the S/O might have to pull them back a bit as they crept toward the red.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos