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PlaneInsomniac
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German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 6:48 am

German authorities have begun large-scale investigations against FR pilots residing in Germany. It seems the framework in which they are employed, which involves a UK-based personnel services provider (Brookfield Aviation) and pilots having a questionable "self-employed" status, may possibly be illegal in Germany. Investigations have begun due to the suspicion of tax evasion and social insurance fraud.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaf...-staatsanwalt-fliegt-mit-1.2494170

It is reported that this action may also have repercussions for other LCCs using similar employment models.
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PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 8:49 am

Makes me wonder that the authorities waited that long. Now they are invstigating the pilots and FR as well. The law says that you cannot be self-emüloyed if you only have a single customer, even if you have 2 or 3 customers but the largest one brings more than 75 or 80% of your turnover.
One can argue mabout that this rule is realistic or not. Will be interesting to see how this works out.

The funny Thing is, those who have "pay2fly" contracts with carriers have no problem, they are customers for the Airline they fly for.
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vfw614
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 9:28 am

The whole story is, to be honest, slightly sensatioalist as it is sold as if Ryanair has come up with something new and particularly nasty.

This happens day in, day out in the employment sector. Companies trying to save costs and be more flexible by not properly employing their workforce, but letting them work as freelancers. Under German law, there are defined criteria how much work a freelancer can do for a single company without being regarded as an employee of the company - and as such being subject to social security contributions, enjoying jo protection etc. It is quite obvious that only working for one airline, not being at liberty to turn down work because you are working according to a roster etc. etc. does not meet those general criteria. As bad as it is, this is, however, not different from what hundreds and thousands of less well known companies do every day. It is an endemic problem of the job market.

[Edited 2015-05-27 02:30:45]
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 9:39 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
As bad as it is, this is, however, not different from what hundreds and thousands of less well known companies do every day. It is an endemic problem of the job market.

No, it is badly needed flexibility for an otherwise cemented Job market. Without that flexibility many companies would have to relocate. Also, you mix up loan workers who are hired by companies such as "Manpower" with self employed. Someone who is self employed does not work for Manpower or Brookfields Aviation.

To qualify as self employed, you have to meet several criteria. You can have a single customer, as Long as this cutomer allows that you can work for others as well, does not put you on a work roster or demands to be on Stand-by. If a FR Pilot flies biz jets for a different Company, he qualifies as self employed. Which in turn means, that it is likely that all FR pilots who have that Brookfield contract do not qualify.
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r2rho
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 11:33 am

Are the pilots themselves or rather the FR employment scheme being investigated? I would find it rather unfair to go against the pilots, who have no choice and must adhere to FR demands.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 11:46 am

The aswer is both are investited. Ryanair does not hve alegal adres in Germany, at the end of the day, the pilots are responsible to pay.

Happens to courier divers or nurses and they make much less per hour thanpilots. If you re self empoyed you have to have more than one custoer, you have to be able to turn down offers for work, you have to be able to Chose your own base andork hours and you cannot take directions from others.

If they work on an Irish conract that does not comply wt Germanlaw ot o Germany, they might have a Problem.
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DLPMMM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 12:42 pm

Maybe the best answer for the pilots would be to either pay their social taxes and insurance, or to move to a country where this is not illegal.

Another option would be for Brookfield (or whom ever) to terminate all their German contract employees and replace them with employees that will be legal under their contract system.
 
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
As bad as it is, this is, however, not different from what hundreds and thousands of less well known companies do every day. It is an endemic problem of the job market.

Airlines are high profile businesses so if the government wants to do a crackdown it's no surprise they'd pick an airline.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 6):
Maybe the best answer for the pilots would be to either pay their social taxes and insurance, or to move to a country where this is not illegal.

When I was an 'independent contractor' in the US I still had to pay quarterly estimated income taxes and employer as well as employee part of social security tax. The up side was that I could select my own insurance plan and set up my own retirement funding and could deduct business expenses. The down side was indeed the risk of being declared an employee and being found libel for all the penalties and any difference in taxes. In the US setting up a corporation and having more than one employee of that corporation (ideally working for multiple clients) is a good strategy.
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mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 1:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 2):
As bad as it is, this is, however, not different from what hundreds and thousands of less well known companies do every day. It is an endemic problem of the job market.

No, it is badly needed flexibility for an otherwise cemented Job market. Without that flexibility many companies would have to relocate. Also, you mix up loan workers who are hired by companies such as "Manpower" with self employed. Someone who is self employed does not work for Manpower or Brookfields Aviation.

To qualify as self employed, you have to meet several criteria. You can have a single customer, as Long as this cutomer allows that you can work for others as well, does not put you on a work roster or demands to be on Stand-by. If a FR Pilot flies biz jets for a different Company, he qualifies as self employed. Which in turn means, that it is likely that all FR pilots who have that Brookfield contract do not qualify.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
The aswer is both are investited. Ryanair does not hve alegal adres in Germany, at the end of the day, the pilots are responsible to pay.

Happens to courier divers or nurses and they make much less per hour thanpilots. If you re self empoyed you have to have more than one custoer, you have to be able to turn down offers for work, you have to be able to Chose your own base andork hours and you cannot take directions from others.

If they work on an Irish conract that does not comply wt Germanlaw ot o Germany, they might have a Problem.

Always ready to defend the "poor" European airlines.

A its best we look at a mean practice to shaft pilots. But in reality it is pressuring the pilots to break the law. Brookfield Aviation is not hiring the pilots, but pressures them to be self employed, what clearly breaks the law in Germany.
It is the same game Ryanair tried in France and lost the court case there.
Where are the pilots employed? They can not be employed according to Irish law, than there place of employment is Ireland, or UK law, than their place of employment is the UK and if stationed abroad, Germany, they have certain rights of accommodation and so on. When they are employed, stationed and flying out of Germany, they have to be employed according to German law.
The question is not if hundreds of different companies also try to break the law, but is the law broken in this case. If hundreds of other companies are swindling on employment contracts has no relevancy here, they are also law breakers but not caught and convicted yet.
 
vfw614
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
Also, you mix up loan workers who are hired by companies such as "Manpower" with self employed. Someone who is self employed does not work for Manpower or Brookfields Aviation.

I don't think so. As far as we know, the pilots set up one-man LLCs under Irish law of corporations. So does Brookfields "employ" corporations like Manpower employs individual? Hardly. Obviously they act as a broker for the "pilot companies".
 
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 2:58 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 9):
As far as we know, the pilots set up one-man LLCs under Irish law of corporations.

Yes, that is a much better strategy than being "self-employed", and the pilots have the USD/EUR to make it happen.

In the US, the state of Delaware makes a lot of money hosting corporations.

You can set yours own up on-line in minutes: https://www.incorporate.com/
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b747400erf
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Wed May 27, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
No, it is badly needed flexibility for an otherwise cemented Job market.

In an era where governments are struggling to raise enough tax revenue to pay for basic services, more tax evasion is not badly needed. Companies should have their tax evasion tricks taken away from them and should be paying taxes to the governments where they operate, regardless of where their home base is located. And this should apply to everyone, including that hypocrite musician Bono.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 5:36 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 11):
In an era where governments are struggling to raise enough tax revenue to pay for basic services, more tax evasion is not badly needed. Companies should have their tax evasion tricks taken away from them and should be paying taxes to the governments where they operate, regardless of where their home base is located. And this should apply to everyone, including that hypocrite musician Bono.

Germany is collecting more taxes than ever, the economy is fairly healthy and for the first time since decades the Overall taxes collected were higher than the budgeted expenses. Now, where do I advocate tax Evasion with this line:

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 11):
No, it is badly needed flexibility for an otherwise cemented Job market.

Flexibility is needed by employers to Keep their heads over the water and there is nothing wrong about that. Not only in industry but in health or old Age care which could not work without Interims employees.

I am self employed since over 25 yearswhich gives me some experience on this Topic. Most of us here do not know the Brookflields contracts, IMHO, why shpuld a Person set up an LLC ( 1 e Company) when the staus of a self employed Person Company does the trick as well? A 1 € LLC does not give you any better protection than an "unlimited" person Company.
As a self employed you do not have to pay into the Pension funds and you can have Basic health insurance or an all covering HI. The only insurance that is mandatory is nursing insurance (Pflegeversicherung)

From what I understand about Ryanair's practise is that they hire pilots in Ireland through an agency but employ them in other countroes, leaving the duty of paying taxes and social contributions to the pilots. That the pilots have to pay taxes and cover health insurance goes without question, the Dispute is, are they technically self employed?

I have outlined above the criteria set by German law under which it is determined if a Person is self employed or not. IMHO, pilots who fly on demand only for a single carrier do not qualify as self employed under German law which in turn means that their empolyer (Brookfields) has to deduct health insurance, Pension insurance, unemployed insurance and nursing insurance plus etsimated taxes from their pay checks and Hand out the net amount only. Brookfields is liable to remitt the deducted amounts to the proper agencoies.

I hope that this is understood now.

BTW That hypocrite bono qualifies as self employed by all means and when he tours in Germany 25% of the net take is paid as estimated tax to the German taxman. That goes for all in the Entertainment industry on tour, including sports stars.
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b747400erf
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 5:38 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
I hope that this is understood now.

You mentioned flexibility, but now clarify your comments further. I was addressing people that think operating in a country but evading taxes through various means like hiring workers in a separate entity or filing in Ireland as an example should not be acceptable. Especially when companies are so profitable and the governments are struggling for revenue. This was also not a comment only at Germany.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 6:44 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
Germany is collecting more taxes than ever, the economy is fairly healthy and for the first time since decades the Overall taxes collected were higher than the budgeted expenses. Now, where do I advocate tax Evasion with this line:

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 11):
No, it is badly needed flexibility for an otherwise cemented Job market.

Very clearly. According to German law you can not be an independent contractor when you work only for one client. So how do you not advertise tax evasion when saying this system, is a badly needed flexibility?
Were is the gain for anybody apart from trying to escape taxation? It is not the first model Ryanair tries to get around paying the social contributions in the country its pilots are working.

Germany is collecting more taxes than having budget expenses is the normal standard how a country should be run, if you do not want an ever expanding national debt, more countries should follow the example.
Lowering taxation should mean lowering it on everybody, not a few trying to avoid paying it.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 7:11 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 14):
Very clearly. According to German law you can not be an independent contractor when you work only for one client. So how do you not advertise tax evasion when saying this system, is a badly needed flexibility

This is wrong. There are 5 criteria to qualify as an independent contractor with the status of being self employed. Regardless what your status is, you are always subject to Taxation and you always have to turn in a tax Report and pay quarterly advance taxes. Or, if you are dependend on one employer the employer pays the taxes and social contributions for you and deducts the amount from the payment.
I have said that rrepeatedly..

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 14):
Germany is collecting more taxes than having budget expenses is the normal standard how a country should be run, if you do not want an ever expanding national debt, more countries should follow the example.
Lowering taxation should mean lowering it on everybody, not a few trying to avoid paying it.

Amen., And the socialists immediately start legislation to spend 10 times of what was the surplus. Tax Money is wasted by politicians, not those who earn it.

The basic and general rule however is, that taxation takes place where the money is earned. Here Comes the certified public accountant who runs an Airline based in Dublin and says, Moment, I have my own way of Interpretation. He lost that case in France and he is likely to lose it in Germany as well.

Sit down, relax and get the Popcorn.
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bjorn14
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 7:44 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):

I'd rather incorporate in Nevada so I could write off my trip to LAS or RNO as a visit to HQ.   
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PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
In the US, the state of Delaware makes a lot of money hosting corporations.

which makes you subject to US laws and the prey for DA's regardless what and where your Transactions are taking place. And whatever you draw from Company accounts is subject to full taxation in your country of residence and the German or UK taxman would not allow any deductions for running that outfit.
Beware of tax havens, they can be hell.

Which is what MOL learns again just now. Flying an Irish registered aircraft based in Germany or any other European Country does not means that your personal income taxes are due in Ireland.

[Edited 2015-05-28 02:03:01]
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kdhurst380
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 8:53 am

There seems to be one of these sorts cases by either France or Germany every year, alternating between them. Arguably the two most protectionist EU states when it comes down to their national carriers.

Coincidence that this comes days after FR announce very healthy profits?

[Edited 2015-05-28 01:56:23]
 
stylo777
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 9:15 am

Not having any deeper knowledge (especially law know-how), I could think of following scenario where they might get around the "more than one customer rule":

75% rostered through "FR Germany"
Remaining 25% through flights operated for "FR Ireland"

Would that be possible?
 
f4f3a
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 9:24 am

The whole system of self employed contracts in its current form is wrong . If you are self employed you should be able to have a number of clients you work for and chose when you work. In Ryanair and other companies you have pilots that are only allowed to work for them and are essentialy employed in all but name.

They use this system to avoid paying social security' and tax in a number of countries by having no official base.
If you work in a country you pay tax there simple.

How about a novel idea that you as an airline employ you're own pilots
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 19):
Would that be possible?

No, there is no FR Germany and there is no Need for that. The EU is a single market, when you are registered in a EU Country you can fly from anywhere to anywhere in the EU.
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mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 10:19 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
This is wrong. There are 5 criteria to qualify as an independent contractor with the status of being self employed. Regardless what your status is, you are always subject to Taxation and you always have to turn in a tax Report and pay quarterly advance taxes. Or, if you are dependend on one employer the employer pays the taxes and social contributions for you and deducts the amount from the payment.
I have said that rrepeatedly..

You are trying to talk around the facts. Yes there are 5 criteria, but one of them is not to work for one client only. I do not expect any of this pilots are working for more than one airline. We are not talking about other setups and the laws have been made to avoid exactly this situation.
So the situation is very clear from the start. The pilot should know that, Brookfield Aviation should know that and Ryanair should know that.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 22):
You are trying to talk around the facts. Yes there are 5 criteria, but one of them is not to work for one client only. I do not expect any of this pilots are working for more than one airline

Think outside the box. What keeps a Pilot from running a Business that involves a mail order shop, some Internet activity or whatever else he can do besides hiring out as a Pilot That fulfills the criteria of entreprenourship and he has more than one Client.
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Semaex
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 11:18 am

I'm slowly loosing sight in all of this. I'm not an accountant or otherwise very good at money and numbers.

My question is: After FR lost the case in France, what happened to the pilots? In case they lose in Germany too, what will the outcome be for the pilots here?
Are they facing charges already?
Will the business model of FR prohibit Germans, French and other pilots from "critical" countries future employment within the airline in order to save money, at least to a certain, non-discriminatory degree?

I know FR wants to save money the best way they can. Which company wouldn't? But if the employed pilots fail their duty as a tax-payer, that might not have anything to do with the company at all. It's tricky, I know. Just trying to figure out this mess. I too got a couple of buddies working for FR, I wonder what kind of trouble they may or may not be in.
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captaincrackers
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 11:50 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
What keeps a Pilot from running a Business that involves a mail order shop, some Internet activity or whatever else he can do besides hiring out as a Pilot That fulfills the criteria of entreprenourship and he has more than one Client.

Yeah, I'm sure FR pilots are going to be jumping over themselves to manage an entrepreneurial activity in addition to flying planes to generate at least 1/6th of their total income from elsewhere, or hire somebody to perform the work contracted to them, to fulfil at least three of those five criteria just so FR can save on payroll tax. A model for the future!
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 1:12 pm

It is a free Country, nobody is forced to do it. But it is possible. BTW, I know pilots who have Jobs on the side as freelancers and one former Management Pilot who was also a board member at the end of his career started quite early to grow Kiwi fruits, in Germany. As a Business.

Finally, there is no payroll tax in Germany. If FR pays a Pilot xxx per hour that's gtheir cost. For employed pilots, they have to share the costs of health, Pension unemployed and nursing insurance. The investigation does not concentrate on part-time pilots but on full time pilots as well. When they are based in Germany they are subject to be treated as any other employee in Germany.
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captaincrackers
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 26):
There is no payroll tax in Germany

Technically correct, but distorts the situation: It is not beyond the bounds of reason to refer to the ancillary costs of keeping staff as payroll taxes, and these are the costs that FR are ostensibly saving in Germany by having their pilots operate as freelancers, alongside a variety of other advantages such as not having to extend the usual employment protection. Of course the pilots are still liable for their own personal taxes and social contributions, but will likely be eligible to deduct a variety of expenses against their income in a fashion not necessarily available to regular employees, creating further burden on the state.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 4:08 pm

I don't know what FR pays them per hour and how they determin work hours, from the time they arrive at the Office to file the flight plan or from the time the doors Close. I read somewhere that in a good month they make 5 to 6 K and in a bad month nothing.
Now, you can, as a self employed. deduct business expenses, however health insurance and Pension insurance are no Business expenses. The total deduction is capped and isa General deduction everyone gets. Simulator Training and possibly medical checks qualify as business expenses. This is low income, at the end of the day and cries for second or third Jobs.

It's not a burden to the state, it is a burden for the pilots having to work under such conditions.

But again, the crack down is on the pilots based in Germany and not paying any contributions, regardless what their employment Status is.
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mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 9:24 pm

http://www.airliners.de/staatsanwalt...partner-firma-ryanair-visier/35804

The authorities do also investigate the company hiring those pilots, there was a search of their premises and wants to talk to Mr. Michael O’Leary.
 
vfw614
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 9:56 pm

I don't understand what the point of the discussion in this thread is. PanHAM would like to have a different set of laws in Germany. That's fine, but the law stands as it is and must be obeyed, whether or not certain stakeholders like it or not. Discussions about how laws theoretically could or should look like in contrast to how the law stands are better suited to a political or legal forum, not an aviation forum.

If Ryanair pilots are only nominally independent contractors, there is a legal case against them and their de facto employer. As in all hundreds of thousands of cases of nominally independent contractors in Germany, whether they are courier drivers, lawyers in law firms, the ice-cream man or Ryanair pilots. So why don't we discuss the ramifications of a decision that could put an end to Ryanair's employment model in Germany. Like: The end of the recent expansion in Germany?
 
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LOWS
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 10:01 pm

Doesn't FR also require the pilots to set up shell companies? It seems like an easy solution. Set up shop in Luxembourg.

But the EU needs to have a discussion about this.
 
aklrno
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Thu May 28, 2015 10:14 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 16):
I'd rather incorporate in Nevada so I could write off my trip to LAS or RNO as a visit to HQ.   

Funny you should mention Nevada. Incorporating in Nevada has some US legal advantages and some additional secrecy, but not much tax advantage. There is no state income tax, but you don't want to manage to make your income subject to US Federal tax.

U.S. laws on independent contractors are much like in Germany. Having one employer, schedules fixed by the employer, employer supplied place of business, etc. would all bust independent contractor status.

One famous Reno business ended up declaring bankruptcy and closing after being sued for back federal taxes. The Mustang Ranch brothel claimed the women who worked there were independent contractors. The feds disagreed, and ended up seizing the brothel for back taxes. The IRS very briefly ran the place until someone realized that was not a good business for the government to be in. Strange, since what the women did to the customers is pretty much what the IRS does to the citizens anyway. The current Mustang Ranch is owned by a property developer who pays his taxes.
 
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LTU330
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 5:53 am

With reference to PanHAMs comment earlier about companies needing to "keep their heads above water". Ryanair just announced massive profits. Maybe my company (Air Berlin) should go down this route also then ? Out of interest, what sort of contracts are the Lufthansa low cost Longhaul crews that will be flying as Eurowings but operated by Sun Express crews have ? I imagine if you do things by the book where the company also has responsibilities regarding pension, sick pay, solidarity tax, health insurance and of course things like additional 50% tax free for Sunday's, 25% additional for nights etc, etc could work out expensive on overnight flights.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 30):
I don't understand what the point of the discussion in this thread is. PanHAM would like to have a different set of laws in Germany

That's news to me. I am always on board when it Comes to advocate less bureaucracy and some laws are stupid but I always say that taxes must be paid where income is earned. I have been doing "across the border" Business for all my life and I can only warn to do Business with a Nevada or Jersey LLC. Your local taxman will get you sooner or later.

MOL is a CPA and he thinks out of the box. Of course it is logic to pay People only for work and not for idling around. Of course you always have to be two steps ahead of the bureaucrat that chases you. But you have to give the sovereign what the sovereign's is. If that basic rule is observed you can be as creative as you like.
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mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 34):
MOL is a CPA and he thinks out of the box. Of course it is logic to pay People only for work and not for idling around. Of course you always have to be two steps ahead of the bureaucrat that chases you. But you have to give the sovereign what the sovereign's is. If that basic rule is observed you can be as creative as you like.

It is very simple. Here are pilots employed by Ryanair. In a sham Ryanair tries to employ the pilots like they would be independent contractors, while everybody connected to it knows that they are not independent contractors. You can call that thinking out of the box, I call it trying to bypass laws and regulations or get other people to do that.

Ryanair is not only in trouble in Germany and France, but will be everywhere were taxation and social contributions are taken seriously.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 1:19 pm

Just a legal explanation:

In Germany every employee below a certain, quite high threshold income, has to join the mandatory health, unemployment , nursing care insurance and old age pension sytem. The premiums are a percentage of the gross income. Under German law the premium for these mandatory insurances gets shared between the employee and the employer (this means that the employer's share comes on top of the salary paid to the employee). Additionally the employer has to pay for an "accident at work" disability insurance for each employee, were he carries 100%.

A selfemployed person has to pay all of it himself.

So since quite a while employers have been trying to convert regular employments into self employed schemes, e.g. a trucking company forcing an employee to take a loan to buy a clapped out truck from them, then the now ex-employee would have to start his own one man business and drive as a subcontractor with all risks and little income for his former boss.

Hence the criteria for proper selfemployment.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 1:38 pm

I can't speak for the rest of Europe, but here in the UK there are a number of set questions that assist in determining someone's employment status. They include:

Do you decide when you wish to work.
Are you paid a fixed price for the job or an hourly rate
Can you send someone to do the work in your place
If the job loses money do you lose money

In the case of a FR pilot, the answers to all are obvious and the clear answer is you are an employee not a self employed contractor.

Despite this, employers have been trying to get round the rules for years, as the Govt closes one loophole down, the employers advisors create another.

FR are simply evading the burden of employment taxes and leaving others to clear up after them.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 35):
It is very simple. Here are pilots employed by Ryanair. In a sham Ryanair tries to employ the pilots like they would be independent contractors, while everybody connected to it knows that they are not independent contractors. You can call that thinking out of the box, I call it trying to bypass laws and regulations or get other people to do that.

That's what we discuss here all along, why are you trying to educate me on matters I have given several replies already?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
So since quite a while employers have been trying to convert regular employments into self employed schemes, e.g. a trucking company forcing an employee to take a loan to buy a clapped out truck from them, then the now ex-employee

Most freight forwarders do not own trucks, that scheme is daily life longer than I am in that Business. The classic freight forwarding is a non-asset based Business. as said before, MOL started a Business model with a bottom line that unnecessary costs must be avoided by all means. People are paid only when they work and when you idle a third of the fleet during off season you cannot pay for the Crews during that time. Simple no brainer.

Now, try to get that in line with the Labor laws of civilized countries you have a Problem. The solution might be that the pilots get contracts for certain months only with Option to re-apply for the next season. That opens Options for pilots to fly for other companis, may be in Asia or do something completely different (thank you Monty Python   ) during the month they are not contracted with FR. I mentioned that before. That also solves the Problem of the limitations of "Scheinselnbständigkeit".

Which is a law made by People who never worked in real life companies. Mrs Nahles is not the perpetrator in this case but she would have done it if the red/green coalition hadn't. It is not enforced anyhow because it is naive to de demand to employ a Person because he only has 19 % of his business from other contractors than his largest customer, Usually 2 criteria are enough anyhow,

Thinking outside the box is needed today to stay on top of matters in a changing world.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
vfw614
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 3:46 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
Most freight forwarders do not own trucks, that scheme is daily life longer than I am in that Business. The classic freight forwarding is a non-asset based Business. as said before, MOL started a Business model with a bottom line that unnecessary costs must be avoided by all means. People are paid only when they work and when you idle a third of the fleet during off season you cannot pay for the Crews during that time. Simple no brainer.

You could apply your way of thinking to ANY job in the world. Why do cashiers at Walmarts need to be employed? Why the assistant of a health practitioner? Why the teacher in a school? Just make them all contractors.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Fri May 29, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 38):
That's what we discuss here all along, why are you trying to educate me on matters I have given several replies already?

Because you keep defending it. Because you talk about needed flexibility. Because you seem to agree with it, while all the time pretending you are for paying taxes and keeping the law.

It is all very nice that you want to change the system so that big corporations can shaft their employees without feeling guilty for breaking the law, but that is a different discussion.

And we have not even started on the bad deal for the "independent contractors" when you are hired for the summer and fired in the autumn, you can not go for unemployment compensation and so on.

I have nothing against people running their own business and being self employed, but here we are talking exactly about the exact case of Scheinselbständigkeit and you keep defending it.
The laws you are complaining about were maid in Germany because firms started to exploit this loophole and show me an European country were this stile of employment is permitted.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 6:13 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 39):

You could apply your way of thinking to ANY job in the world. Why do cashiers at Walmarts need to be employed? Why the assistant of a health practitioner? Why the teacher in a school? Just make them all contractors.


It happens That Kind of flexibility is needed all over. How else can you run anything in a Country where People can call in sick for 3 days not even needing a doctor's note? My wife works in a nursing home, they could not do without hired contract workers. Either from manpower type set-ups or completely Independent contractors. The same law maker also makes law requesting a certain number of staff on each station and also llimits the amounts paid by the nursing insurance.
The Problem in our modern world is that laws are made by People who never worked in their lives., at least not in real bsiness. The career is School University Bundestag. Or "delivery room", "lecture room" "plenary chamber". People like Frau Nahles do not have a clue what Kind of mess they are creating by forging their ideology into laws.

I am not defending "Scheinselbstaendigkeit" or the way MOl is doing business. I am reflecting reality People not only want cheap fares, peoply want cheap anything and at the same time do not realize that this is only possibloe with strict cost control. Wages and social costs are not paid by the corptrations, These are paid by the customers of airlines and electronic Shops or any other example. We live in a society that produces more and more service jobs. In manufacturing companies can outsource to Asia and partially compensate wage rises by higher productivity. In a Service biz like running an Airline you cannot do that. You Need 2 People in the Cockpit and 4 FAs in a 738. That is reality, hence the Company Needs to Play with that reality and still make a Profit. MOL treats everyone equally, the staff is not allowed to load their mobiles at work and when you go to a Meeting at the FR Office you bring your own Cup of coffee,

And finally, no one is forced to work for FR or any other Company. It always takes two for tango
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
vfw614
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 7:13 am

The problem is that countries were run with your way of thinking 200 years ago. Modern societies simply do not work that way for some reason. That's what democratically elected governments have decided, like it or not.

If complying with the law increases the average Ryanair fare by 5 EUR, so be it. The legal system should not be modelled so as to allow average ticket prices of 35 EUR for flying across Europe.
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 10:26 am

We have enough regulation already. No need for interference with ticket prices. I've got some more News for you: We are allowed to critize the government, we can do that verbally and in writing without any fear and if you think being realistic is 200 year old thinking, you better get your Brains working and adapt to reality.

The single market is a reality that allows Airlines to operate flights from any member Country to any member Country without even having a legal adress exceptin their home Country. What FR does is nothing else but testing the opportunities that the single market allows them. Time will tell if that is always accepted or legal, but testing things out is legal.

You should rather ask the question why it took so long for the authorities to investigate the Business practise of FR. France was quicker than our snoring justice System.

I am not a fiend of Ryanair, can't use them anyhow as they do not fly to FRA ad probably never will. But one must admit that they are creative and innovative. They have opened new markets and they are successfull. Germany seems still to have too many people with the mentality of public servants. The translation of "Beamte" which contains he word "authority" speaks for itself, in the Anglo world a "Beamter" is a servant while in Germany the thinkng is 200 years old, From a time when Germany had a long way to become a democracy.
. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 11:22 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 41):
I am not defending "Scheinselbstaendigkeit" or the way MOl is doing business.

You are exactly doing that. And on the way you talk about this and that to muddy the waters.

The main difference about the French and German case is that in France Ryanair employed the pilots and flight attendants directly. The point in France was that the employees were hired according to Irish Law, but working and flying out of France and Ryanair did not pay taxes and/or social contributions in France.
In Germany Ryanair tried a new trick, instead of breaking the Law themselves they are using another company as a cut out. That company than breaks the law or is pressuring the employees to break the law, take your pick.

And you, in the name of whatever political motives, are cheering them on.

[Edited 2015-05-30 05:04:06]
 
PanHAM
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 1:04 pm

I am defending flexibility in an otherwise over regulated work market. The law itself is a stupid regulation with the intend of protecting People who do not want to be protected.

There are so many business models which do not fit into the straight jacket of this law but are otherwise perfetcly OK and allow self employed people to make a good living. Including the ability to pay taxes. Luckily, the law is not enforced unless there is abuse which may be the case here.

I say may be, because I have outlined that pilots who have temporary contracts with Airlines logically have enough time to pursue other work opportunities and generate additional income. In which case it would be easy to even meet the requirements of the Scheinselbstaendigkeit law.

I don't know if Zero hour contracts are in line Irish law, they are in the UK. ,Now, that is something I would oppose if that means to be on stand-by without pay. But I would be reluctant to accuse anyone here of breaking "the law".. as long as you have registered a business and pay taxes and nrusing insurance as well as health insurance you are not yet beaking any law. Each case has to be seen individually and also decided individually by a judge. So far it is an Investigation. You should therefore not talk about results.
.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 9411
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
I am defending flexibility in an otherwise over regulated work market. The law itself is a stupid regulation with the intend of protecting People who do not want to be protected.

The normal compensation for working as a contractor is getting better pay when you are working compared to being an employee.

I this cases all the winnings are on the side of the corporation. Perhaps the same, but often lower compensation, no social contributions, no expectation to work, being on call for no pay and usually not being able to accept other work because you are on call. That exactly is called Scheinselbstständigkeit and I understand you are all for it.

Are you working for Ryanair or are promoting such contracts?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
There are so many business models which do not fit into the straight jacket of this law but are otherwise perfetcly OK and allow self employed people to make a good living. Including the ability to pay taxes. Luckily, the law is not enforced unless there is abuse which may be the case here

Yes there are and I do not see any limits if you are really independent as an independent contractor.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
I say may be, because I have outlined that pilots who have temporary contracts with Airlines logically have enough time to pursue other work opportunities and generate additional income. In which case it would be easy to even meet the requirements of the Scheinselbstaendigkeit law.

Not if they are all the time on call and never sure if they will be called out, therefore never being able to take some other scheduled work.
Being on standby without pay is accurate the situation for the majority of the hour contracts, including a ban to work for the competition.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 45):
I don't know if Zero hour contracts are in line Irish law, they are in the UK. ,Now, that is something I would oppose if that means to be on stand-by without pay. But I would be reluctant to accuse anyone here of breaking "the law".. as long as you have registered a business and pay taxes and nrusing insurance as well as health insurance you are not yet beaking any law. Each case has to be seen individually and also decided individually by a judge. So far it is an Investigation. You should therefore not talk about results.

No reason to mince words, they brook the law in France.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 2:35 pm

Germany is total wrong here. Each pilot or some pilots collectively got their own business setup in the form of a Limited Liability company under the laws of Ireland. This Limited company has a contract with Ryanair whereas it is supplying for example piloting services. There is nothing illegal, as the company pays the taxes in Ireland and the employee, the pilot will be a director and probably allowing himself a salary from the company or a dividend which is taxable under the laws of Ireland. There is a double taxation treaty between Germany and Ireland which exclude the possibility of double payment of taxes in two different countries.

The Germans would be right, if it would be the pilot itself who is registered as a self employeed and has only one client, but this is not the case. Perhaps this is just some kind of game to discredit the growth of FR in Germany.
I still miss Trans World Airlines and the L-1011
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 2:35 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):
Are you working for Ryanair or are promoting such contracts?

Watch it. That is short of an Insult. I am self employed since over 25 years and i have a clear business model..

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):
Yes there are and I do not see any limits if you are really independent as an independent contractor.

Can you imagine that there are opportunities outside the 9 to 5 treadmill? All needed is a mobile, a Notebook and wi-fi. Besides, I have answered that question at least twice in this thread. FR grounds about 100 aircraft in the low season which is why they need part time contracts. During These times there is no stand by needed, if a Pilot has a contract from May to September he can do what he wants in the other months.
Besides, i have given my opinion on Zero hour contracts, which BTW are illegal in Germany.

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 46):
No reason to mince words, they brook the law in France.

You still need to wait until the issue is through the Courts. So far it is not even in the court.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Aesma
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RE: German FR Pilots Investigated For Tax Evasion

Sat May 30, 2015 3:30 pm

I was surprised to learn by reading this thread that FR pilots made good money, I thought they were earning less than your kids' kindergarten teacher.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 18):
There seems to be one of these sorts cases by either France or Germany every year, alternating between them. Arguably the two most protectionist EU states when it comes down to their national carriers.

And the UK is the country that pushed the most for the free movement of workers, and is now backpedaling on that at full steam...

Quoting Semaex (Reply 24):
After FR lost the case in France, what happened to the pilots? In case they lose in Germany too, what will the outcome be for the pilots here?
Are they facing charges already?

I don't know but I wouldn't expect bad consequences for the pilots (legal consequences I mean), in such cases it's always considered that the employer was the law breaker, not the "illegal worker". Also in France companies have nothing to do with income taxes, people do their taxes themselves, so they don't have that problem either.
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