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PMUA787
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Fri May 29, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 49):
Plus I'm sure it doesn't hurt that we offer free beer and wine that might help the nervous types.  

That is an awesome thing that QX does in this day and age of race to the bottom, nickel and dime you for almost everyting. Dont stop doing this Horizon!

I wish UA Express would put the Q400's on the ELP-DEN route like they do at least once a day on the ABQ-DEN run.It would be a nice upgrade from the CR2's and ERJ's that frequent the route normally.
 
tjh8402
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Fri May 29, 2015 8:05 pm

I flew on a UA Q400 round trip DEN-DRO and that was a fun takeoff. Rivaled the 752 we flew DEN-MCO for the shove in the back factor. It was a bumpy flight, esp into DRO, but on such a short route, I don't see a jet getting much higher to avoid the bumps on such a short flight.

GA turboprops are not limited to FL250. All currently on offer will go to at least FL300, and the hot rod specials like the Piper Cheyenne 400LS and Piaggio Avanti can both wave to A320s below them from FL410.

I would imagine that engines would be the main issue here. I would think you have to go to 4 engines as I don't know of a more powerful turboprop (the PW150a on the Q400 is already more powerful than the Rolls-Royces on the C-130J). Going to 4 engines, as awesome a sight as that would be, would kill the economic argument. The best option might be the TP400 on the A400m, but if that engine was designed specifically for that application, so I have no idea if it would be cost effective to operate in a civilian airliner setting, not to mention what the certification process would look like.
 
diverted
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Fri May 29, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting Stratofish (Reply 32):
Quoting Marvinhsv (Reply 16):
Same in Germany. I'm flying between Hamburg and Nuremberg quite often and every time I board my beloved Q400 I can hear people complaining about a 'small shitty prop'. I have to choose between a Germanwings A319 and the Q400 and I always go with the prop. I like the kind of private feeling and the vibration when flying. You only have one neighbor and it's not any tighter than the GWI ones.

You can't be flying that often, methinks. These Q400s you are referring to break down so often and pax are rolling eyes and complaining on every single said flight...

I'm inclined to agreed with him; There is definitely times and places where I prefer something like a Q400. Quicker to enplane and deplane due to size and 4 seats per row as opposed to 6. People with oversize carry ons have to gate check them, so there's no waiting for them to struggle to retrieve them from the overhead.

And so long as the NVS is working, the Q is just as quiet as a 320/737. It's a different tone of sound, sure, but I don't find it any louder, and the last few rows of the Q are near silent.

Another feature (for someone who likes to sit near the rear of the aircraft) is that the lav is at the front, so the only people going by are flight attendants, whereas my flight yesterday on an AC a320 was a stream of toddlers going by.

Anyways, if it's a short flight (under about 1.5 hours or so) I have no issues with a turbo prop
 
bennett123
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Fri May 29, 2015 8:21 pm

IMO, sizewise, the Q400 is probably as big as it will get for several reasons apart from lack of suitable engines.

Firstly due to scope clauses. This primarily seems to be a US issue.

Secondly, that jets will become more efficient.

Thirdly, customer resistance to turboprops.

Finally, in Europe slot availability will become an increasing issue.

Personally having flown on an ERJ (BA and Flybe), Q400 (Flybe) and Airbus (Easyjet, Virgin Red and Air Malta) in the last year, I do not have a strong view on this.

However, on flights of over 90 mins, I suspect that the speed of the jet, together with the ability to fly over the weather would probably start to count.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Sat May 30, 2015 5:00 pm

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 40):
The problem is the the max altitude of a Turboprop is only FL25000

That isn't a turboprop limitation, it's a limitation of a specific aircraft. The SA227 could go higher, the P.180 goes higher, the Kingair 350 goes higher.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
bmacleod
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Sat May 30, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting SaschaYHZ (Reply 48):
YHZ-YSJ/YQM/YFC are perfectly suited for turboprop flying as they are generally in the 25-30 min flight length. YHZ-YUL and even YYT are more suited to jet ops.

I think YHZ-BOS would be a good fit for the Q400, the CRJ200 only has 50 seats versus 75 for the Q400. The fuel burn of the Q400 vs the CRJ200 would be a big factor plus flight time difference of only 5-8 minutes extra - 1:35 Q400 vs 1:28 on CRJ200.

But on YHZ-YTZ; Porter's Q400 is too small and slow. I feel more comfortable on a A319 or a 737. The Airport Express bus is only 5-10 minutes from Pearson to downtown.

[Edited 2015-05-30 11:20:15]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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Acey559
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Sat May 30, 2015 5:44 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 54):

True. The Q400 can go higher as well, but Horizon (and others I assume) put the FL250 limit on them because they don't have oxygen generators.
In Dixie Land I'll take my stand to live and die in Dixie.
 
warren747sp
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:17 am

But it means a much rougher ride thru storms since they don't operate aboue FL250?
747SP
 
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hilram
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Mon Jun 01, 2015 7:59 am

Just to answer the question of the thread-starter, related to Norwegian operations: Norway has a lot of small field airports serving smaller towns and cities that simply cannot be served by jets. Runways are typically from 2700 to 3300 feet long.

Furthermore, the majority of these airports are along the coast. Weather can be quite adverse, esp. during winter. It is my impression that smaller prop planes handle rough weather conditions better than smaller jets. (I might be wrong about that.)

For many years, these airports have been served by WF. When I was a young boy, it was either the DHC-6 ("Twin Otter"), or the bigger DHC-7 ("Dash-Seven"). Today they operate Bombardier Q series.
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
bond007
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 57):
But it means a much rougher ride thru storms since they don't operate aboue FL250?

As mentioned, on the leg lengths that turboprops should be used on (e.g. NYC-BOS 200-300nm), nobody, jet or turboprop, is getting much higher that 20-25,000ft, so a moot point.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Viscount724
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 56):
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 54):


True. The Q400 can go higher as well, but Horizon (and others I assume) put the FL250 limit on them because they don't have oxygen generators.

It's not the airline that limits the altitude to FL250 but the regulatory authority that certificates the aircraft. It can't legally fly any higher than FL250 per the type certificate.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:02 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 60):
It's not the airline that limits the altitude to FL250 but the regulatory authority that certificates the aircraft. It can't legally fly any higher than FL250 per the type certificate.

Nope, try again. Q400 is type certificated to FL270, but because airlines like Horizon choose to not install all the equipment, they are limited to FL250.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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LTU330
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:00 am

DiamondFlyer is correct. The service ceiling is 27000 ft if you install chemical oxygen generators instead of just having the portable oxygen bottles. We only have the portable bottle system at Air Berlin so 25000 ft is where we cruise.
 
raddek
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:40 pm

I would take a DASH-8 over an ERJ- 135/145 any day. I think it has to do with how long the route is and what actual
plane you are comparing it to. I was just speaking from a pax comfort stance. I am quite tall, so added legroom or
headroom in the cabin is welcomed.

I have not yet flown an ATR, so I cant say anything on them since most of them are in Europe. But I do like the CRJ
series. The low windows suck, but other than that they are a good plane.

Props fly slower than jets, so if you're in a hurry, take a jet  
 
bond007
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:24 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 63):
Props fly slower than jets, so if you're in a hurry, take a jet

Not on the distances that they should be flying. Jets won't be going much higher or faster, on 200-300nm legs.
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Viscount724
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:53 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 61):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 60):
It's not the airline that limits the altitude to FL250 but the regulatory authority that certificates the aircraft. It can't legally fly any higher than FL250 per the type certificate.

Nope, try again. Q400 is type certificated to FL270, but because airlines like Horizon choose to not install all the equipment, they are limited to FL250.
Quoting LTU330 (Reply 62):
DiamondFlyer is correct. The service ceiling is 27000 ft if you install chemical oxygen generators instead of just having the portable oxygen bottles. We only have the portable bottle system at Air Berlin so 25000 ft is where we cruise

Then please explain why the FAA type certificate data sheet for the Dash 8 (all models) contains the following excerpt with no exceptions mentioned. That's what I was referring to. Where does the FAA say that 27,000 feet is permitted if oxygen generators are installed? I can't find anything.

Maximum Operating Altitude
Take-off and landing 10,000 feet
Enroute 25,000 feet
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 65):
Then please explain why the FAA type certificate data sheet for the Dash 8 (all models) contains the following excerpt with no exceptions mentioned. That's what I was referring to. Where does the FAA say that 27,000 feet is permitted if oxygen generators are installed? I can't find anything.

Just because the FAA data says one thing, doesn't mean it's true everywhere. Bombardier own's literature states FL270. While the TCDS does say FL250, I have no idea why that is. Regardless, my original point was, someone tried to say all turboprop's are limited to FL250, and that simply is not true.

http://commercialaircraft.bombardier..._5719_Factsheet_Update_Q400_V1.pdf

-DiamondFlyer

[Edited 2015-06-02 19:04:57]
From my cold, dead hands
 
Viscount724
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:26 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 66):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 65):
Then please explain why the FAA type certificate data sheet for the Dash 8 (all models) contains the following excerpt with no exceptions mentioned. That's what I was referring to. Where does the FAA say that 27,000 feet is permitted if oxygen generators are installed? I can't find anything.

Just because the FAA data says one thing, doesn't mean it's true everywhere. Bombardier own's literature states FL270. While the TCDS does say FL250, I have no idea why that is.

Airlines operating the type in the US or anywhere else where FAA certification standards apply, can't make their own exceptions, regardless what the manufacturer's advertising brochures say. Those publications have no legal status.

The European (EASA) certification of the Dash 8, including the Q400, also has no exceptions to the maximum 25,000 ft. altitude.
http://easa.europa.eu/documents/type...-22-cs-23-cs-vla-cs-lsa/easaima191

Excerpt:

11. Maximum Operating Altitude: 7,620 m (25,000 ft) (Pressure Altitude)
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 67):
Airlines operating the type in the US or anywhere else where FAA certification standards apply, can't make their own exceptions, regardless what the manufacturer's advertising brochures say. Those publications have no legal status.

Well then, I'm sure you could take it up with BBD, because they advertise all over the place the plane is capable of FL270. I'm sure this wouldn't be the first time the TCDS is wrong (sarcasm...)

My point still stands, turboprops are capable of more than FL250.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:02 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 68):
My point still stands, turboprops are capable of more than FL250.

I didn't say they weren't capable of higher altitudes, only that their certification doesn't legally permit anything higher than FL250. Many general aviation turboprops are certified for much higher altitudes, for example many Beech King Air models are certified for FL350.
 
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LTU330
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:20 pm

Hmmm. My ATA 104 Level III Type Course notes say that the service ceiling is 27000ft if chemical oxygen generators are installed for Passenger use. I guess if the authorities say otherwise then that is a mute point, but the fact remains it is capable.
 
mats01776
Posts: 162
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RE: When Is Turboprop Better Than Jet?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:00 pm

For what it is worth, see page 20 of this document:

fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/fsb/fsb%20dhc-8%20rev%203.pdf

Quote:
APPENDIX 2
DASH 8 OPERATOR DIFFERENCES REQUIREMENTS TABLES
DESIGN OPERATOR DIFFERENCES REQUIREMENTS TABLE
DIFFERENCE AIRCRAFT: Dash 8-400
BASE AIRCRAFT: Dash 8-200
COMPLIANCE METHOD
APPROVED BY (POI): TRAINING CHKG/CURR
....
MAX ALTITUDE 25,000 ft. (OPTION FOR 27,000 ft.) Y N X A A

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