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EA CO AS
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 3:15 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 49):
Well DL is sure making use of the AS agreement to dump mileage awards on

It's not hurting AS though; DL still has to pay them for award travel done using SkyMiles. And the inventory allocated to DL is far less than AS allocates to their own Mileage Plan members so it's not like it skews AS revenue management.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting ghifty (Reply 44):
If, "Alaska Air Group reported $149 million in profit in its first quarter earnings report, a 67 percent increase compared to the same period in 2014" doesn't say AS can fight DL I'm not sure what will.


LOL, if you think that says anything about how AS can fight DL then your understanding of financials, airline operations, and how the price of oil effects profitability is the equivalent of a 5th grader.

Let me help you with the first question you should have asked yourself considering how the drop in oil prices is probably the biggest financial news in the last year... How much of that $149mln was due to cheap oil??? How about you get serious and compare 1Q2015 vs 1Q2014 ex-fuel.

The CEO even lead off his remarks on Q1 results with "Our record first quarter results reflect lower fuel prices..."

I will even save you the trouble of looking up it in case you don't know how to read a financial statement, fuel savings accounted for $123mln.
Hmmm... so what was the percentage increase in their profit from the same period in 2014 ex-fuel??
 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
They why is DL adding so many markets and times out of SEA that have nothing to do with connecting to their transpacific flights?

Because their lack of a domestic network means a lack of a local market base because it's less convenient than the AS network.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 31):
I don't normally agree with MSPNWA since he's generally a Delta hater but this time I think he's right--albeit provocative. See ghifty's post--Delta has infinitely more resources EXCEPT gate space. Alaska's ace card is holding Seattle real estate--if they didn't--Delta could grow much faster.
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 34):
Refute it then. Here's the facts. Delta is about 6 times larger than AS. It generates over 7 times the revenue. Losing money to win over the local SEA market is just a bleeding scratch. DL can live with that all day. They hold the cards in SEA due to their sheer size.

They hold a lot of cards - the problem is due to lack of gate space, they can't play all the cards they are holding. It's as if AS is allowed to play all five of their cards, and DL has to choose two to play against them.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
And you'd be correct IF DL had gate space to expand. They do not. And the majority of their planned expansion at SEA has already taken place.

In other words, AS has already absorbed DL's best shots.

  
The P.O.S. can say all they want about accommodating DL but the fact of the matter is they are running out of room and they aren't going to take gates from AS to give to DL. They can talk expansion all they like but even if they decide on that, it would be years down the road, years in which AS will continue to dominate and grow their network.
 
michman
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 4:05 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
Not quite. DL proposed and said, "By the way, if we get married, you can never speak to any of your family or friends ever again."

Would YOU agree to such a relationship?

I'm sure most alliance memberships have some sort of exclusivity requirements. Is this really all that surprising? A full fledged membership can provide some additional benefits to flyers that they don't receive in a limited partnership. Which is why airlines chose to join alliances in first place even though they are sacrificing some of their independence.

In the end, there are a number of dual hub markets out there, and I don't see why SEA can't also be one. Why does there have to be a "winner" in SEA? I don't really get what the big deal is.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 4:46 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 45):
If you think DL is done expanded, think again.

With what gates?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 45):
SEA-TAC authorities have said they can accommodate Delta's future plans for expansion.

Again, with what gates? The only planned expansion at SEA that will be completed in the next 2-3 years will be the N Satellite, exclusively for use by AS. They will not relinquish any other gate space to DL or any other competitor and are also aggressively trying to get more gate space from the Port.

Quoting michman (Reply 53):
I'm sure most alliance memberships have some sort of exclusivity requirements.

AS and DL have a partnership but are not members an alliance. And the partnership agreement does not have any exclusivity requirement.

Quoting michman (Reply 53):
Is this really all that surprising?

When one half of the partnership unilaterally tries to impose requirements that are not codified in the agreement, yes - it's surprising. But again, AS simply had to adapt to the change and has done so quite successfully.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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usxguy
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 5:36 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 47):
Not quite. DL proposed and said, "By the way, if we get married, you can never speak to any of your family or friends ever again."

Would YOU agree to such a relationship?

EA CO AS - I know you aren't just a res agent in Tempe, and I believe you know I'm not just an analyst for an airline. but come on, if Alaska would stop this management shuffle that it loves to do every few years maybe it wouldn't have happened.

My point is, Jason and Charles should have told higher ups some of the things coming out of Atlanta rather than let it sit with Sprague's office. If Torque was never moved out of his job and into another division, I bet this would have had a MUCH different outcome. I'm required to give BI WEEKLY reports to the Board of Directors as to what's going on so they are aware of the situation.... I'm surprised the Alaska folks don't do that.

As one Alaska executive so proudly announced at a VERY large airline conference for executives, "we like to be the Swiss of the airline industry" - that doesn't always sit well with people, especially with there being 3 large alliances now, and 3 large US carriers. Glen Hauenstein at Delta likes to keep his friends close to him in his sandbox, and Alaska was in there for a bit - they asked for some closer ties (not a merger), but even as you have said, Alaska didn't want to play with one alliance.

I really REALLY like Alaska Air - I'm a G75K and feel they have a good product. But now with Delta in my own back yard, with a year round flight that suits me better, its going to be VERY difficult decision to remain 75K much longer. I
xx
 
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aloha73g
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 5:50 am

Why does there have to be a "winner"? Why can't they both do well in Seattle...its a huge city of growing business importance. Granted if DL sticks it out there, they probably stole some of AS's growth potential at SEA, but AS couldn't grow there exclusively forever...at some point AS is going to have to grow elsewhere (PDX, LAX, SLC, ... further east).

I think (and hope) that both thrive at SEA, and that AS will find growth opportunities elsewhere. Competition is good...in the long run i think both DL & AS will benefit from it.. As a frequent traveler to or thru SEA, I enjoy flying both of them and will continue to fly both of them.

-Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 52):

  
The P.O.S. can say all they want about accommodating DL but the fact of the matter is they are running out of room and they aren't going to take gates from AS to give to DL. They can talk expansion all they like but even if they decide on that, it would be years down the road, years in which AS will continue to dominate and grow their network.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 54):

Again, with what gates? The only planned expansion at SEA that will be completed in the next 2-3 years will be the N Satellite, exclusively for use by AS. They will not relinquish any other gate space to DL or any other competitor and are also aggressively trying to get more gate space from the Port.


I am far from an expert on the SEA airport, but it is my understanding that unlike other airports that assign gates using long-term leases they re-evaluate their gate allocations every year or two. Maybe somebody with actual knowledge of how SEA-TAC operates can chime in and educate us?

In the meantime, I am going to chose to believe that Delta did not decide to build a hub and allocate resources to a market where they have no physical ability to grow! That just doesn't pass the smell test to me. If they believe they can build a hub there, until I see them stop adding flights I will believe they physically can (stopped only by the possibility of not being able to fill the planes rather than a physical limitation to add flights). Delta has very publicly stated they plan to grow SEA to a 150+ flight hub. Airport officials have said they can accommodate the growth. Neither the BoD or Wall Street has challenged it. In fact, I haven't even seen AS come out and say the DL's growth will be limited. So, I'm not really sure why a few posters here seem to have the impression that DL will not have access to the necessary gate space needed for their proposed expansion.
 
Max Q
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 6:20 am

AS is one of the best airlines in the US and I wish them the best of luck.


Its good to see how well they are doing against DL.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


GGg
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 7:18 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 55):
EA CO AS - I know you aren't just a res agent in Tempe, and I believe you know I'm not just an analyst for an airline. but come on, if Alaska would stop this management shuffle that it loves to do every few years maybe it wouldn't have happened.

My point is, Jason and Charles should have told higher ups some of the things coming out of Atlanta rather than let it sit with Sprague's office. If Torque was never moved out of his job and into another division, I bet this would have had a MUCH different outcome. I'm required to give BI WEEKLY reports to the Board of Directors as to what's going on so they are aware of the situation.... I'm surprised the Alaska folks don't do that.

I'm not a res agent, and as far as the rest goes, I think you and I both know that I cannot get into the weeds on this in a public forum. I'll have to leave it at "we'll agree to disagree" on who did or didn't do what, etc.

By the way, the res center moved from Tempe to Ahwatukee, and again from Ahwatukee to Chandler.  
Quoting usxguy (Reply 55):
Glen Hauenstein at Delta likes to keep his friends close to him in his sandbox, and Alaska was in there for a bit - they asked for some closer ties (not a merger), but even as you have said, Alaska didn't want to play with one alliance.

Glen hasn't had a problem with peering down his nose at AS in the past, even before the SEA dustup, such as expanding at LAX into competing Mexico markets while saying there was "no competition" in those markets. But that's a subject for a different time....

Again, DL ultimately made some asks that were reasonable, but most were (IMHO) unreasonable, and I think there was a pretty good knowledge base in Atlanta that AS wouldn't and couldn't agree to those terms.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 55):
I'm a G75K

Thank you! I appreciate your business, and truly hope to keep it. I mean that.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 55):
its going to be VERY difficult decision to remain 75K much longer

I totally understand. Having said that, I do hope we'll be able to retain your business. Keep your eyes peeled for even more reasons to stick with Chester over the Widget coming soon.  
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
questions
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 7:32 am

Just how much can DL and AS legally cooperate given lack of US anti-trust immunity? Some of the comments in posts above appear to completely disregard how much the two carriers can legally cooperate. For example it's not as simple as AS just providing domestic feed so DL can build a successful trans Pacific hub at SEA.
 
michman
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 54):
AS and DL have a partnership but are not members an alliance. And the partnership agreement does not have any exclusivity requirement.

I think you are missing my point. I suspect that DL wanted AS to join Skyteam as a member. As to how much "pressure" they applied, I don't really know. As I tried to point out, there can be benefits to being a member so that flyers can take advantage of all the benefits of memberships which generally exceed those of limited partnerships. If there were no such benefits, why would any airline join an alliance in exchange for giving up some automony? So AS decided that the benefits were not worth it and now AS and DL are moving on. I don't see what the big deal is, it's just business. But I guess it's impossible to have a unemotional discussion on this topic. I'm done here.
 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 9:56 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 57):
In the meantime, I am going to chose to believe that Delta did not decide to build a hub and allocate resources to a market where they have no physical ability to grow! That just doesn't pass the smell test to me.

If you choose to believe that DL originally came into SEA with guns blazing planning on adding flights to Ketchikan, Victoria and Pasco, be my guest but to me, that's what doesn't pass the smell test.
 
bjorn14
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 1:37 pm

One of the best ways to to keep competitors out of your business is to keep prices low. Some one will always come along and say I can do that better and cheaper.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 63):
One of the best ways to to keep competitors out of your business is to keep prices low. Some one will always come along and say I can do that better and cheaper.

Well, sort of. SEA however had some of the lowest fares for a fortress hub airport in the country even before DL showed up. AS is not known for gouging the market - some routes, naturally, but as a general rule no. DL is the airline much more well known for predatory pricing a la CVG and MSP where the residents pray for LCC incursion. In most industries, someone else doesn't come along and say "I can do that cheaper, in fact I'll take a loss doing it just to prove a point."
 
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usxguy
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 59):
By the way, the res center moved from Tempe to Ahwatukee, and again from Ahwatukee to Chandler.  

I thought it was just down the road from SA)">HP/US at one point! I recall having dinner with some friends at a mongolian BBQ not far from there (or was it teppanyaki) - and they mentioned how close the res offices were.

In regards to my fight, it has to do with forced overnights when traveling to/from Juneau. Almost everywhere EAST of the "river" or even near it requires an overnight on Alaska, even with the increased SA)">AA codeshares. My G75K status also got me Gold with Hilton (from staying there so much); but the midget widget in the fall is a nonstop, getting to SeaTac around 9AM. The only problem I have is the return. I don't want to leave Alaska, but time is money. And if I can get where I need to go SAME day now, then that means the world to me (without a red eye).

Case in point - I'm en route to MIAMI right now, had to fly JNU/ANC last night, took the ANC/LAX redeye, and a 2 hour layover in LAX, land in MIA at 4PM. I left Juneau at 7pm.

I did go to the G75 reception in Juneau and did get Scott H and Marilyn's ear about this - other fellow business travelers also chimed in. Scott H was aware, but Marilyn wasn't.

AS isn't perfect... they're a GOOD airline -- but the widget is definitely causing commotion.
xx
 
jetlanta
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 59):
Again, DL ultimately made some asks that were reasonable, but most were (IMHO) unreasonable, and I think there was a pretty good knowledge base in Atlanta that AS wouldn't and couldn't agree to those terms.

If I might chime in here...on this point I would disagree. I think that Delta fully expected that AS would look at the consequences of not agreeing to become Delta's exclusive international partner at SEA and decide that it was in its best interest to do so. I think Delta was surprised and disappointed that Alaska chose differently because it seemed pretty obvious what Delta's next move would have to be if Alaska rejected exclusivity. The thing is, this is EXACTLY one of the items that anti-trust laws forbid them from discussing. So its easy to see how they might not have been on the same page regarding the potential outcomes.

There was a point in time, probably a few of them, where this could have turned out far differently. In the end, both carriers made decisions they have to live with.

Fortunately for Seattle, they are both excellent airlines. The real winner here is the Seattle region.
 
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usxguy
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 3:39 pm

and on the flip side of this coin, as a Gold 75K, I would have preferred that Alaska do what Delta wanted and join SkyTeam. I fly a lot internationally and it would be nice if my G75K status meant something with the other carriers.
xx
 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting usxguy (Reply 67):
and on the flip side of this coin, as a Gold 75K, I would have preferred that Alaska do what Delta wanted and join SkyTeam. I fly a lot internationally and it would be nice if my G75K status meant something with the other carriers.

The problem with that is that AS would have been reduced to basically a west coast feeder for DL which, while great for DL, would have really hurt the AS independent pride. In any case, at this point, from the way things initially appear if AS joins an alliance it probably won't be Skyteam.
 
raddek
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 7:22 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 52):
The P.O.S. can say all they want about accommodating DL but the fact of the matter is they
are running out of room and they aren't going to take gates from AS to give to DL. They can talk expansion all they like
but even if they decide on that, it would be years down the road, years in which AS will continue to dominate and grow
their network.

You are correct. The Port really has very limited space to grow. I think the biggest issue with SEA is that all the terminals
are on one side of the runways. Now I know that it would be nice for them to build something on the other side of the newer
3rd runway, but really it is a steep hill strait down. So I am not sure how cost effective it is to put a terminal of some sort
on the other side. There is still space to grow north of the North satellite, but that would mean a tear down of some air
freight facilities. Really they can't build south due to the hangars being there.

DL wants as many gates as they can get a hold of. I think their operation is spread out over S, B and maybe even A
Concourses.

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
Look..... The big bad bully is in town. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Let's discuss
the big bad bully, Southwest. Not a big bad bully, but viewed by many legacies as the big bad bully

Well I am very pro-WN and I think people on a.net know it by now, but, WN can be the big bag bully. You seem to
have forgotten than in DEN, WN has been the big bad bully to F9 and it is putting domestic strains too with the fare
war in DEN with UA as well. And I really don't think that DEN is the only place WN has played bully. A lot of markets
that WN has entered that F9 had, F9 pulled away. I believe that the success for F9 in CVG will be short lived
once WN decides to come into town  
 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:15 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 69):

Correct. Any expansion at SEA would mean tearing down freight facilities. I don't see how that would be productive because then there's nowhere to put those. SEA is boxed in on two sides by terrain and on the other two sides by development.
 
texdravid
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:22 pm

Well, I hope AS more than holds their own against Delta. Delta's arrogance is underrated and their service and people skills are overrated.

In the event that they can't hold on, a merger with AA can always be done.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:23 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 63):
Some one will always come along and say I can do that better and cheaper.

That's Delta. Everytime I check an upcoming itinerary for pricing, DL is the low fare leader, often by a decent margin. Currently my Midwest trip is pricing out at $187RT on DL. How do you go any lower than that? WN is 50%-100% more.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 66):
I think that Delta fully expected that AS would look at the consequences of not agreeing to become Delta's exclusive international partner at SEA and decide that it was in its best interest to do so.

I agree, but do you understand the "You'll feed our flights, or else...." tone to that? It was 100% about DL, whether AS liked it or not. Yes, it's "just business" but nobody running a business wants to be bullied.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 68):
The problem with that is that AS would have been reduced to basically a west coast feeder for DL which, while great for DL, would have really hurt the AS independent pride.

Forget pride (though that's a powerful motivator as well). A lot of people on here criticize AS for not expanding outside their PNW home before which has made them vulnerable. Can you imagine how vulnerable they would have been if they put all their eggs in the DL basket? DL could at any time turn around and do what it's doing now and AS would have been even more screwed.

Quoting raddek (Reply 69):
You are correct. The Port really has very limited space to grow.

They can extend A by knocking down some hangars. They can build a new North Concourse by eliminating some of the freight facilities. They can expand S a bit. There are options. In addition, other airlines might be able to free up a few gates making it possible for DL to grab those.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
b747400erf
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 1):
I like AS's "I'm not a victim" attitude.

Good on you for trying to put out a shaming tactic against victims of rape and other violence when talking about competing companies. All the victims thank you for putting their abuse in such a great perspective.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting texdravid (Reply 71):
Delta's arrogance is underrated and their service and people skills are overrated.

And this is according to..... their many awards and commendations in the last few years? Please.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 71):
In the event that they can't hold on, a merger with AA can always be done.

Except not.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):
In addition, other airlines might be able to free up a few gates making it possible for DL to grab those.

The POS has every interest to make Delta happy right now since they're pouring money into the airport. If they can find gate space with other airlines for DL, they're going to do it.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
chrisair
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 8:33 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 59):
By the way, the res center moved from Tempe to Ahwatukee, and again from Ahwatukee to Chandler.  

Isn't it a small facility now? The Ahwatukee one was fairly big, if I remember correctly. I unknowingly parked in their lot once to jump on a conference call. It wasn't until I left that I noticed I was in a spot reserved for the AS folks.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 40):
It's a long term agreement (I know the expiration date but cannot divulge)

What's the definition of "long term?" 25 years? 50 years? 100000000000000 years?   I wish we could earn miles on PMUS flights now that they're completely tied up with AA. Guess it'll change in the fall when they switch over reservation systems.
 
raddek
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 9:21 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 74):
The POS has every interest to make Delta happy right now since they're pouring money
into the airport. If they can find gate space with other airlines for DL, they're going to do it

Well if the congestion continues and facilities aren't planned for soon, maybe SEA will go the route of issuing slots to
the airlines   I just know that SEA has it's rush hours of flights and geographically the terminal is challenged because
of everything is on one side of the runways.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 70):
Correct. Any expansion at SEA would mean tearing down freight facilities.
I don't see how that would be productive because then there's nowhere to put those

Well I know to the far north side, where FED EX and CargoLux and the other freighters are, there have been plans for
at least a decade to tear those old buildings down. Some of those were built in the 50's and 60's.

I know that just north of the North Satellite Swissport uses that warehouse there for many cargo contracts. That would
have to be the first building to go, and they would more than likely have to rebuild further up north where the older
warehouses are. But there isn't tons of space up there neither.
 
Prost
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 10:24 pm

DL is currently using gates on the A concourse that used to be exclusively for United and frontier. As United draws down, Delta picks up. As airlines leases come due, the new agreements have been CUTE, so that frees up a lot more gate space. One year ago people were saying the POS wouldn't be able to accommodate a 130 flight/day Delta operation, and yet they are. I think with some creative scheduling, and possibly even remote parking, there can be an additional 40 flights eked out.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 10:46 pm

Quoting chrisair (Reply 75):
Isn't it a small facility now? The Ahwatukee one was fairly big, if I remember correctly.

It is; the old Tempe site was over 70,000sf, but AS began allowing agents to work remotely and when moving to a new facility, the Ahwatukee office was downsized to 30,000sf.

A further expansion of the remote workforce (just over 85% of agents work from home now) allowed the office to be downsized yet again when the lease in Ahwatukee was up. The new Chandler facility is just under 7,000sf total.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Prost
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 10:49 pm

Amazing how over the past few decades the business models have changed. Self serve, fewer res agents, everything in general.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sat May 30, 2015 11:09 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 69):
Now I know that it would be nice for them to build something on the other side of the newer
3rd runway, but really it is a steep hill strait down.

It could be done...and has freeway access. Build the arrivals and departures access at the bottom, parking above that with elevators up to ticketing and departures. It could be architecturally very interesting...but would require a subway underneath the field to the existing facilities. Maybe they can buy 'Bertha' when she's done.  
Quoting raddek (Reply 76):
Well I know to the far north side, where FED EX and CargoLux and the other freighters are, there have been plans for at least a decade to tear those old buildings down. Some of those were built in the 50's and 60's.

Not a hodgepog of old buildings. Also to the north are the Alaska Air Cargo facility, United Air Cargo, FedEx, WN Freight and multiple airlines at the Transplex facility. Not so easy to start moving people out.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:27 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):

I agree, but do you understand the "You'll feed our flights, or else...." tone to that? It was 100% about DL, whether AS liked it or not. Yes, it's "just business" but nobody running a business wants to be bullied.


To me that sounds like a better option than having to fight for every route out of your previously competition free hub and having to fight to retain all your corporate contracts.
If in fact it was hinted that if AS didn't agree to exclusively feed DL's international flights out of SEA, DL was going to set up shop in SEA - I think it was very shortsighted, possibly dumb pride, or maybe they thought DL was bluffing - for them not to agree. The local market, I would think, has to be way more valuable to AS than the ability to feed multiple intl carriers.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):

Forget pride (though that's a powerful motivator as well). A lot of people on here criticize AS for not expanding outside their PNW home before which has made them vulnerable. Can you imagine how vulnerable they would have been if they put all their eggs in the DL basket? DL could at any time turn around and do what it's doing now and AS would have been even more screwed.


But if AS had agreed to give DL all their feed, why on earth would DL decide to incur the expense and effort of setting up a SEA hub??? They would already be getting the milk for free without having to buy the cow (as the saying goes). They would have a de-facto merger without any acquisition costs and labor pains.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 81):
But if AS had agreed to give DL all their feed, why on earth would DL decide to incur the expense and effort of setting up a SEA hub??? They would already be getting the milk for free without having to buy the cow (as the saying goes). They would have a de-facto merger without any acquisition costs and labor pains.

What your missing is that AS, as part of this new reality with DL, would have been required to drop all of their other partners...AA, BA, CX, EK, KE, LA, QF. It was too much to ask of AS to totally hitch their wagon to DL. In retrospect they've made the right decision because obviously DL can't be trusted...they would have still likely started flights to SEA and shut out AS.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 81):
To me that sounds like a better option than having to fight for every route out of your previously competition free hub and having to fight to retain all your corporate contracts.
If in fact it was hinted that if AS didn't agree to exclusively feed DL's international flights out of SEA, DL was going to set up shop in SEA - I think it was very shortsighted, possibly dumb pride, or maybe they thought DL was bluffing - for them not to agree. The local market, I would think, has to be way more valuable to AS than the ability to feed multiple intl carriers.

     

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 82):
What your missing is that AS, as part of this new reality with DL, would have been required to drop all of their other partners...AA, BA, CX, EK, KE, LA, QF. It was too much to ask of AS to totally hitch their wagon to DL. In retrospect they've made the right decision because obviously DL can't be trusted...they would have still likely started flights to SEA and shut out AS.

Whether that was the right decision remains to be seen. Delta setting up shop in SEA is not about trust--it's about getting what Alaska wouldn't give them.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 1:56 am

Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 82):


What your missing is that AS, as part of this new reality with DL, would have been required to drop all of their other partners...AA, BA, CX, EK, KE, LA, QF. It was too much to ask of AS to totally hitch their wagon to DL. In retrospect they've made the right decision because obviously DL can't be trusted...they would have still likely started flights to SEA and shut out AS.

I would agree with you if DL setting up a hub wasn't part of the equation. I wouldn't drop everybody else to go with DL all things being equal. But once DL threatened to envade SEA and put AS' bread and butter at risk, I'm thinking dropping everybody else (not that many intl ops in SEA anyway) and going with DL is much better than having to fight DL to hold onto the local market. To the contrary, I think DL has shown it can be trusted if it indeed told AS they would set up shop in SEA if AS didn't play ball. They did exactly what they said and appear to be following it through whatever it takes. Again as I mentioned earlier, if AS had given DL what they wanted there would be no incentive for DL to target AS or SEA, without having to pay for it they would already have what they wanted - feed for a West coast pacific gateway.

Right now it is easy for both DL and AS to battle it out while fuel costs are so low. They are both playing with house money. When fuel starts to trickle back up toward $80 a barrel they will both be facing loses in SEA and decisions will have to made. Of course being diversified DL could absorb loses in the short-term a lot better than AS who lives and dies with the P&L from their SEA operation. That being said, oil should remain low at least until 2016 so both will continue to add flights and fight for market share for the foreseeable future.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 3:23 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 12):
Southwest survived brutal assaults by Braniff when it was just an infant. Braniff was hell bent on putting Southwest under. Did it happen? Which airline survived?

That's not an apt example. BI was taken down by its own hubris - the rapid expansion it made as soon as deregulation ended, with excessive expenses for new planes, markets that could not support those flights, and destinations where their brand was virtually unknown.

Then AA came to town, and with a combination of flooding the market with flights and practicing various dirty tricks, left Braniff unsustainable. Too bad... because, from a flyers point of view, it was a far superior airline.

Quoting Nola (Reply 29):
I don't think any of these analogies hold. First, Braniff was taken down by too many wide bodies and too large of an international expansion (and debt) too quickly. The move to DFW and dirty tricks by American to book BA tickets and then cancel them right before takeoff didn't help either. The pivot to try to be a low frills carrier focused on Texas was a last gasp that the balance sheet couldn't support. There are a few good books on the subject.

         Absolutely!
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 4:47 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 73):
Good on you for trying to put out a shaming tactic against victims of rape and other violence when talking about competing companies. All the victims thank you for putting their abuse in such a great perspective.

What?? So we aren't allowed to use the word "victim" now apparently  
Quoting raddek (Reply 76):
Well I know to the far north side, where FED EX and CargoLux and the other freighters are, there have been plans for
at least a decade to tear those old buildings down. Some of those were built in the 50's and 60's.

The FedEx facility was originally the Flying Tigers ramp, but they can't tear it down without having a much larger one to replace it with. FedEx is trying to expand - there is a massive amount of freight moving through SEA right now and any disruption would be catastrophic. Then there are the warehouses on the other side that are used daily. I really don't know where to put those either.

Quoting raddek (Reply 76):
I know that just north of the North Satellite Swissport uses that warehouse there for many cargo contracts. That would
have to be the first building to go, and they would more than likely have to rebuild further up north where the older
warehouses are. But there isn't tons of space up there neither.

This is my guess as well, the Swissport building would have to move further north. There is certainly some wasted space in the north cargo area that's currently an old GSE graveyard where airlines dump their old equipment to rust away.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting usxguy (Reply 65):
I did go to the G75 reception in Juneau and did get Scott H and Marilyn's ear about this - other fellow business travelers also chimed in. Scott H was aware, but Marilyn wasn't.

You have to remember that in the grand scheme of things, Scott will always be a little more in tune with the wants and needs of Alaskans since he's been in his role for so long. Habb does a great job and always champions the needs of his community.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 6:48 am

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 81):
But if AS had agreed to give DL all their feed, why on earth would DL decide to incur the expense and effort of setting up a SEA hub??? They would already be getting the milk for free without having to buy the cow (as the saying goes). They would have a de-facto merger without any acquisition costs and labor pains.
Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 84):
I would agree with you if DL setting up a hub wasn't part of the equation. I wouldn't drop everybody else to go with DL all things being equal. But once DL threatened to envade SEA and put AS' bread and butter at risk, I'm thinking dropping everybody else (not that many intl ops in SEA anyway) and going with DL is much better than having to fight DL to hold onto the local market. To the contrary, I think DL has shown it can be trusted if it indeed told AS they would set up shop in SEA if AS didn't play ball. They did exactly what they said and appear to be following it through whatever it takes. Again as I mentioned earlier, if AS had given DL what they wanted there would be no incentive for DL to target AS or SEA, without having to pay for it they would already have what they wanted - feed for a West coast pacific gateway.

You do know that DL forcing AS into exclusive partnership is anti-competitive, and therefore illegal ? Some just don't understand how businesses or regulations work. DL would have built up SEA regardless of what AS would have done, there is no money to be made codesharing on someone else's flights, especially for an entire hub. DL has always wanted a west coast hub, they don't simply want to run international flights from SEA. Long term, that would not have been profitable because they'd lose out on the domestic revenue, that portion going to AS, and simply had revenue from the international side. That doesn't make sense if they want SEA to replace NRT.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 9:37 am

 
HPRamper
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting yeelep (Reply 89):
Has anybody actually taken a look at what the current plans are for SEATAC?

Yes and nothing is set in stone yet. The Port basically is putting a 20-year plan together for the airport which is great but doesn't in any way address the gate crunch over the next few years. As it stands now according to projections, revenue flights will be hardstanding soon. I hope DL passengers have fun with that one  
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 11:20 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 86):
The FedEx facility was originally the Flying Tigers ramp, but they can't tear it down without
having a much larger one to replace it with. FedEx is trying to expand - there is a massive amount of freight moving
through SEA right now and any disruption would be catastrophic. Then there are the warehouses on the other side that
are used daily. I really don't know where to put those either

Where is DL cargo at? Are they using the Swissport building as well? Last I looked there are a lot of airlines in that
one air freight warehouse alone. They must have freight flow out the wazzu there!

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 86):
This is my guess as well, the Swissport building would have to move further north.
There is certainly some wasted space in the north cargo area that's currently an old GSE graveyard where airlines dump
their old equipment to rust away

Ah yes, the wasted space way up north across from FX ramp. I call it the Rust-Belt of SeaTac  
I know that the AS warehouse wont go anywhere. I thought they tore down the USPS mail house? I know the United
Cargo looks like a storage shed from an episode of Trailer Park Boys. lol

That would be the space though to use for any expansion of gates at SEA
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting raddek (Reply 91):
Where is DL cargo at? Are they using the Swissport building as well? Last I looked there are a lot of airlines in that
one air freight warehouse alone. They must have freight flow out the wazzu there!

It must be. It certainly isn't in the North complex.

Quoting raddek (Reply 91):
I thought they tore down the USPS mail house? I know the United
Cargo looks like a storage shed from an episode of Trailer Park Boys. lol

The only mail facility at the airport is Matheson and it's in the Transiplex center. Most airports have done away with dedicated USPS facilities focusing only on the handling vendor warehouses. There just wasn't enough volume flowing through to make them cost effective.

And yeah with United only a shell of its former self at SEA there's not much use for a cargo building. FX is even trying to get ahold of the United maintenance building to expand their footprint. At the rate FX volume has been increasing out of SEA, if there is no physical expansion within the next couple of years they will have to look at opening a ramp at PAE. It's in discussions. SEA is now FX's second busiest Lower-48 ramp west of the Rockies after LAX not including the OAK hub. No wonder the Port of Seattle is so bullish on cargo. It certainly looks and feels healthy.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:01 pm

I do wonder with this "Battle in Seattle" between AS/DL how much cargo AS may lose to DL as well?
DL has that nice big former NW warehouse with lots of cargo. With the additional flights that DL has,
I am sure AS will feel the pinch on freight if DL starts trying to get some of those big money cargo
contracts in and out of SEA.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 39):
DL then singlehandedly elected to fundamentally change the dynamic of the relationship.

Meh. Delta "singlehandedly elected to fundamentally change the dynamic" frankly more out of vulnerability than out of strength. Delta saw the convergence of multiple long-term trends - the steady decline of the viability of the NRT hub, the growing reliance on feed from Alaska, Alaska's continuing to deepen relationships with some of Delta's chief rivals, etc. - that pretty much necessitated making a strategic bet on organic growth SEA. Delta needed a longhaul gateway in SEA to replace NRT for Asia access, but longhaul gateways require domestic feed, and it was frankly very dangerous for Delta to rely on domestic feed from a competitor - which is what Alaska was and remains, especially since that competitor also happens to have a very strong relationship with AA.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Because they are dumping seats in SEA and have it well within their power to destroy AS and make SEA into a nice monopoly for themselves.

Go ahead, tell me AS can fight DL. Which is patently ridiculous. But go on, say it, everyone.

Okay. I'll "go ahead." At the moment, I think the indications are that Alaska can "fight" Delta. Alaska has made it this far. I agree - in general - with many of the sentiments already expressed, about the immense pressure Delta can bring to bear and competitive weapons it has at its disposal to grow its presence in SEA through the combination of by far the market's most extensive longhaul network plus a growing credibility and relevance in domestic markets. Nonetheless, Alaska has weapons of its own to draw upon, including a stable of international partnerships, an expansive and growing relationship with AA, what still is by far the largest and most extensive domestic network at the airport, and of course - perhaps most importantly of all - materially lower costs than Delta.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 45):
Delta doesn't need to put AS out of business, but once they build a network from SEA large enough to support a transpacific hub they would have definitely eaten significantly into AS market share and margins.

Agree.

Quoting questions (Reply 60):
Just how much can DL and AS legally cooperate given lack of US anti-trust immunity?

Right up to the moment they start colluding on prices or schedules - which they aren't doing.

Quoting michman (Reply 61):
I think you are missing my point. I suspect that DL wanted AS to join Skyteam as a member.

Perhaps, although I think Delta was likely more interested in, and motivated by, what they wanted Alaska to not do - namely, cooperate with Delta's largest competitor - rather than getting Alaska into a marketing alliance that appears to be of relatively declining significance to Delta, anyway. Nonetheless, as said, Delta couldn't just flat out tell Alaska to drop AA - as that would be illegal.

Quoting usxguy (Reply 67):
and on the flip side of this coin, as a Gold 75K, I would have preferred that Alaska do what Delta wanted and join SkyTeam. I fly a lot internationally and it would be nice if my G75K status meant something with the other carriers.
Quoting HPRamper (Reply 68):
In any case, at this point, from the way things initially appear if AS joins an alliance it probably won't be Skyteam.

Agreed - despite past resistance, I'm not so sure if, given the way things are going, Alaska won't yet join one of the global alliances one day. That being said, though, it appears increasingly unlikely that alliance would be SkyTeam.

Quoting texdravid (Reply 71):
In the event that they can't hold on, a merger with AA can always be done.

I doubt it highly. I agree with Ed Bastian, and many other industry figures and watchers, that consolidation at the "big four" level is likely done. I do not see any plausible scenario where any of the big four (AA, Delta, Southwest or United) are permitted to acquire or merge with any other U.S. carrier without the requisite divestitures and concessions being so great as to undermine the entire economic logic of such a transaction. Personally, if Alaska is going to merge with another carrier, I do not think it will be AA - or Delta.

Quoting Prost (Reply 77):
DL is currently using gates on the A concourse that used to be exclusively for United and frontier. As United draws down, Delta picks up. As airlines leases come due, the new agreements have been CUTE, so that frees up a lot more gate space.

Plus, at some point, USAirways will be moving over and joining AA (and Alaska) on D, right? USAirways isn't that big an operator at SEA, but that should open up a bit more capacity on A for Delta to expand.

Quoting Prost (Reply 77):
One year ago people were saying the POS wouldn't be able to accommodate a 130 flight/day Delta operation, and yet they are.

I don't really remember there being all that much skepticism about Delta being able to make work an operation of the size contemplated today.

Quoting Prost (Reply 77):
I think with some creative scheduling, and possibly even remote parking, there can be an additional 40 flights eked out.

I agree that some additional growth is almost certainly possible. How much, before substantially degrading the experience for customers - particularly connecting - is the big question.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 84):
But once DL threatened to envade SEA and put AS' bread and butter at risk, I'm thinking dropping everybody else (not that many intl ops in SEA anyway) and going with DL is much better than having to fight DL to hold onto the local market.

We'll see. I think the jury is very much still out. Again - Alaska appears to be doing quite well at the moment against the competitive onslaught from Delta. In the long-run, the strategy of sticking with all of its other alliances and allowing the partnership with Delta to atrophy and ultimately expire may be seen as a smart one.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 85):
Then AA came to town, and with a combination of flooding the market with flights and practicing various dirty tricks, left Braniff unsustainable.

The cumulative impact of all the "dirty tricks" - real and imagined - AA exacted on Braniff pale in comparison to Braniff's own horrible mismanagement.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 88):
DL would have built up SEA regardless of what AS would have done, there is no money to be made codesharing on someone else's flights, especially for an entire hub. DL has always wanted a west coast hub, they don't simply want to run international flights from SEA. Long term, that would not have been profitable because they'd lose out on the domestic revenue, that portion going to AS, and simply had revenue from the international side. That doesn't make sense if they want SEA to replace NRT.

  

Again - the writing was on the wall as the fortunes of NRT continued to fade. Delta needed a gateway to Asia and Delta very smartly saw SEA as the perfect solution, but a longhaul gateway needs domestic feed and Delta would have frankly been stupid to rely on a now-owned competitor for much of its feed at what has now become one of its single largest gateways, and the crucial linchpin in its Pacific network.
 
yeelep
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:29 pm

Delta cargo is located in the building just south of their hangar.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 90):
As it stands now according to projections, revenue flights will be hardstanding soon.

Planned for 2016.
 
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RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:32 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 50):
It's not hurting AS though; DL still has to pay them for award travel done using SkyMiles. And the inventory allocated to DL is far less than AS allocates to their own Mileage Plan members so it's not like it skews AS revenue management.

Yes I know there is a set amount that transfers with mileage awards & the myriad of free & reduced tickets that are issued against the other carrier, what I was trying to say, was that it seems DL isn't worried about putting those people on AS.

I wonder if that set amount is less than what DL charges for their tickets to the public? I'm very pleased my nieces are on AS vs DL, those skymiles of mine were going unused.

Thanks for being a knowledgeable voice in these forums, it's always nice to see your posts with good info

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):
That's Delta. Everytime I check an upcoming itinerary for pricing, DL is the low fare leader, often by a decent margin. Currently my Midwest trip is pricing out at $187RT on DL. How do you go any lower than that? WN is 50%-100% more.

Sounds telling of the yields they are having to resort to, in order to attract passengers. DL won't take away a lot of loyal AS flyers for it's service alone. For a larger network, sure, some travelers will find that helpful.

I think part of the reason we are fans of AS are, AS features products we are familiar with, that come from our region, that is a source of pride with Northwesterners.

Plus those free local beers & wines, are the same ones we enjoy in our homes, that brings a bit of the Northwest experience to each place they fly, that experience is more like home & comfortable, A bit of home for the journey.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):
Can you imagine how vulnerable they would have been if they put all their eggs in the DL basket? DL could at any time turn around and do what it's doing now and AS would have been even more screwed.

   It was a VERY one sided offer that DL proposed. It would have required AS to stop doing business the way they had been for the last 30 years.

Those same 30 years that had AS grew organically from a carrier with one lower 48 route (SEA-PDX) to a nationwide network, it would be a dumb man that changes the whole way his carrier operates to suit another airlines needs, IMHO.

AS is a true success story in this industry, 0 bankruptcies leaving no screwed over retirees, great management teams that have kept AS above water in hard times & the desire to be green & responsible in the communities they serve.

It's no wonder why people like AS so much here in the Northwest, they have never been a burden & always a great neighbor in our communities.

We will continue to support them with multiple corporate contracts & a stronger loyalty that goes beyond a mileage program (which is still one of the best of most carriers flying today).

They have happy shareholders, a healthy bank balance & the loyalty of it's travelers because AS invests in it's customers communities & experiences, with the best staff, new aircraft & an ever expanding network, to name a few.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):
They can extend A by knocking down some hangars. They can build a new North Concourse by eliminating some of the freight facilities. They can expand S a bit. There are options. In addition, other airlines might be able to free up a few gates making it possible for DL to grab those.

I pity those who transit SEA with DL as they are spread out over two concourses & a satellite. I've wondered where they would build the new much larger cargo facility, because as passenger traffic has increased at SEA so has cargo.

Quoting chrisair (Reply 75):
What's the definition of "long term?" 25 years? 50 years?

I'm sure that we'd be told if this member were able to divulge or hint at these things. It is hard to keep some things you know others would love to know, but you are unable to speak about, mad props to EA CO AS for staying true & employed.

I used to be a personal travel agent to some celebrity types, people you or I see on TV all the time. Point being is, I couldn't even tell my partner about certain parts of my day because of the non-disclosure agreements we signed.

Quoting Prost (Reply 77):
As United draws down, Delta picks up.

I think UA's last drop from SEA was the SEA-NRT flight, other than the traditional seasonal slow downs, I am unsure where UA is pulling down from at SEA?

I don't think that one SEA-LAX flight is going anywhere it feeds Australia & New Zealand.

There are lots of 1Ks in the SEA area, not like SFO of course, but it's amazing know many hold outs there are, PDX too, back from the days when UA was the big carrier up here. I can't see UA losing any many more gates at SEA.

Quoting Prost (Reply 77):
One year ago people were saying the POS wouldn't be able to accommodate a 130 flight/day Delta operation, and yet they are. I think with some creative scheduling, and possibly even remote parking, there can be an additional 40 flights eked out.

So DL is to bus people to the terminal from remote stands? Where could those be placed? I guess transfer times will need to increase with operations over 2 concourses, remote stands & a satellite? Yikes, SEA is a nightmare already,

This just enforces my idea that in time, we will see even more "transit" travel on AS going via PDX as they diversify & add more dots to PDX.

Ultimately leaving more O/D seats for the SEA market & cities that can't be reached via PDX like YYJ or YKM. I'm not suggesting PDX will ever rival SEA, just further compliment existing services & future, plus the new KS base at PDX.

I think from a customer stand point, DL is already too spread out over a big section of the airport, add in some remote stands connection times will need to be increased or DL will have lots more potential misconnect issues & unhappy passengers who may try & avoid SEA next time or go with another carrier.

The only real times I see DL can add flights is between 10p & 6am, which may feed another Alaska flight or mid night flight to Asia, but other than that what else could they add but another red-eye to the east coast? I think DL's short term expansion plan at SEA will have to be larger aircraft until such times as more gates are built.

There are more than one carrier thinking of adding SEA to their route map including NK & others who very well may add additional cities or frequencies, like WN were it not for the already busy facility & routes.

I'm not saying it's accurate, because I just don't know, but there was a thread where it was mentioned that DL was going to be facing gate problems & potential issues accommodating their current summer schedule at SEA, especially with delays & MX issues that tie up gates longer than expected. I guess remote stands solve the problem for the carrier but just adds to the passengers potential problems.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 81):
To me that sounds like a better option than having to fight for every route out of your previously competition free hub and having to fight to retain all your corporate contracts.

Would you just lay down & roll over the first time someone makes you an offer to be exclusive, when you have been so incredibly successful as an independent operator?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 81):
The local market, I would think, has to be way more valuable to AS than the ability to feed multiple intl carriers.

It is, that is where the loyal AS flyers are, they aren't switching to DL in droves, it's just not going to happen with the average Northwest flyer. DL will NEVER offer the diversity AS does from the Northwest, why change?

Remember the average AS flyer is a traveler that flies where AS flies, not saying there are not many MVP golds who fly beyond US, Canada & Mexico, but many more are comfortable with the reach of AS & QX & have been for decades.

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 83):
Whether that was the right decision remains to be seen. Delta setting up shop in SEA is not about trust

Of course not, DL inked a deal with AS to get an inside look at how the SEA hub performs for them & then they took that information & immediately set up their own operation at SEA, of course there is no trust, rightfully so.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 85):
Then AA came to town, and with a combination of flooding the market with flights and practicing various dirty tricks, left Braniff unsustainable. Too bad... because, from a flyers point of view, it was a far superior airline.

Braniff was awesome, great leather seats, great food, great people I even got to fly the Calder 727 once & big Orange.

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 85):
Absolutely!

I have two copies of it, Braniff timetabe dated 12-15 -78, Unprecedented expansion, luckily our family went to Hawaii on them from PDX, SEA/PDX-HNL service lasted about 6 months, IIRC.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 88):
DL has always wanted a west coast hub,

Got any proof of that? They didn't want PDX, but their M11's couldn't make ATL-NRT non-stop. Everyone wants LAX, that's the largest market on the left coast, as the US3 all try to become the big dog at LAX.

I will totally agree SEA was the best city left without an International hub carrier on the west coast & is the most geographically advantageous to Asia.

Now that honor may have become PDX's honor, maybe one day a carrier will see PDX as the next best city on the west coast for a "Asian" hub operation?

I will give you that financially, SEA is likely less costly than NRT to run, but by no means perfect, NRT will always have it's place, but just for SIN, BKK & MNL.

I'd love to see DL add SEA-SYD, in time I expect this to be a route they offer, IMO, DL should offer it before QF gets their 787's & brings back SYD-YVR taking some potential away from DL.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5149
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 12:51 pm

Quoting raddek (Reply 93):
With the additional flights that DL has,
I am sure AS will feel the pinch on freight if DL starts trying to get some of those big money cargo
contracts in and out of SEA.

Maybe. I'm inclined to think AS will be holding onto most of the domestic contracts they have because of long-term commitments and most likely sweetheart hometown deals. International is another story - AS already didn't have those, so DL would be poaching from other widebody carriers. I would be interested to see if they already have.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 96):
I will totally agree SEA was the best city left without an International hub carrier on the west coast & is the most geographically advantageous to Asia.

Now that honor may have become PDX's honor, maybe one day a carrier will see PDX as the next best city on the west coast for a "Asian" hub operation?

PDX or SJC. But then again, who is left? All the big carriers now have their hubs established. Maybe if AS acquires widebodies they'll decide to forego the competition at SEA and instead make PDX their transpac hub  
 
yeelep
Posts: 767
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:53 pm

RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 96):
So DL is to bus people to the terminal from remote stands? Where could those be placed?

Cargo seven ramp, just west of the AS hangars. The POS has at least one COBUS people mover so far. I've noticed a ramp is being built at gate S1 for ground loading and possibly remote hardstand use.
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1665
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: AS CEO Was 'Shocked' When DL Partnership Unraveled

Sun May 31, 2015 1:50 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 72):
I agree, but do you understand the "You'll feed our flights, or else...." tone to that? It was 100% about DL, whether AS liked it or not. Yes, it's "just business" but nobody running a business wants to be bullied.
Quoting hiflyeras (Reply 82):
What your missing is that AS, as part of this new reality with DL, would have been required to drop all of their other partners...AA, BA, CX, EK, KE, LA, QF. It was too much to ask of AS to totally hitch their wagon to DL. In retrospect they've made the right decision because obviously DL can't be trusted...they would have still likely started flights to SEA and shut out AS.

My understanding is that Delta asked for exclusive partnership on international markets from SEA only. Thats it. In the end, they did not ask for AS to dump AA.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 96):
I pity those who transit SEA with DL as they are spread out over two concourses & a satellite.

Pity? I wouldn't worry too much about them. People have longer actual walks at pretty even other major hub in the country. Ever try a T to F connection in ATL? Or any connection at all in CLT, ORD, DFW or IAH?

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