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Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:29 pm

Please continue posting your updates here:

Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 13 (by American 767 Mar 23 2015 in Civil Aviation)

As summer is getting close, the beautiful Arizona sun is now rising on Part 14.

Enjoy. Don't forget to protect yourself with sunscreen.  

Ben Soriano
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cathay747
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 1:24 pm

Agreed with all the comments toward the end of the previous
thread about LH coming back to PHX. I stand corrected about
my Star hub comment, I forgot it wasn't yet a Star hub when
LH flew here previously, but then I didn't live here then so my
bad.

But yes, IIRC the biggest problem for them was indeed (and remains)
the wrong aircraft. An A340 (or an A330 from airBerlin for that
matter) is just too big in my opinion. IF LH or AB had 787-8's, then
they probably could make it work just based on O&D and cargo
traffic (I always forget about cargo!). And I suppose European
connections @ FRA too, there would be some as gravy.

As for NRT, again agreed with all of you. I think this is actually one
time where the comments about our proximity to LAX do come into
play. HOWEVER, with a 787-8, and cargo (not forgetting this time!),
MAYBE it could work. Look at what JL has done with SAN, which
we all know is even closer to LAX! Plus JL could tie in to a OW hub
for what that would worth...there must be a few intermountain region
points like ABQ where they could get a few connecting paxs. We'll
just have to see.

As to the LIH schedule...you're welcome, and I was surprised to see
it too, but note that those schedules were thru 22DEC so that might
just be a X-mas season bump, I didn't look past that date to see if
it was continuing.
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wn676
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:47 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 1):
As to the LIH schedule...you're welcome, and I was surprised to see
it too, but note that those schedules were thru 22DEC so that might
just be a X-mas season bump, I didn't look past that date to see if
it was continuing.

It is, as noted earlier. Their peak holiday schedule typically runs from the Thursday of the week before Christmas through the weekend after New Year's. If this schedule holds, it's on track to be the busiest season for PHX-Hawaii traffic in a long time...probably ever. Even when TZ was still operating I don't think the market saw this much.

A few years ago they operated a second KOA flight in a similar fashion for a couple of weeks but I've never seen it since. The second LIH frequency shows up sometimes during the summer on Saturdays only.
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wn676
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:01 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 1):
As for NRT, again agreed with all of you. I think this is actually one
time where the comments about our proximity to LAX do come into
play. HOWEVER, with a 787-8, and cargo (not forgetting this time!),
MAYBE it could work. Look at what JL has done with SAN, which
we all know is even closer to LAX! Plus JL could tie in to a OW hub
for what that would worth...there must be a few intermountain region
points like ABQ where they could get a few connecting paxs. We'll
just have to see.

While it's true that SAN is closer and yet supports JL, the market to Tokyo was about twice the size than that from PHX before JL started flights there.

As for connecting traffic over PHX, ABQ is a great example where AA is already flowing those connections over LAX. The cities that PHX could feasibly connect that LAX/DFW currently cannot are few and far between; places like GEG, DRO, FLG, etc. Not exactly huge markets.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Quote:
In regards to international expansion, why do they never look to South America? It seems with our large population of Spanish speakers (not all are form Mexico) that there could be a demand to South America.

South America is another region with very weak demand out of PHX. Same goes for Mexico, I think owing to the fact that many here tend to come from regions closer to the border and are easily accessible via car/bus. HP tried and failed with MTY, we've lost ACA and GYM, and seen frequencies reduced to places like MZT and PVR. Just look at AM's abysmal service record to PHX; Y4 can't even make it daily out of season.

All that said, it's not like the market is exactly non-existent either; I think there could have been potential with an airline like CM (3/4x weekly) when PHX was a Star hub, and maybe down the road we'll see AA test the waters in another Central American market should they grow tired with LAX   . SJO is still operating after all these years, albeit on a seasonal, less-than-daily basis.

Man, I'm sounding good and negative today. We need some uplifting news!

Can't remember if this has been brought up before, but supposedly FX will be phasing out tri-jet ops in PHX by the end of the year in favor of a 767/777 mix.

[Edited 2015-06-04 08:45:44]
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 4):
Can't remember if this has been brought up before, but supposedly FX will be phasing out tri-jet ops in PHX by the end of the year in favor of a 767/777 mix.

I'd heard about that. In fact, when I flew out of PHX last Friday, one of their new 763s was on the cargo ramp, along with a single 757, no tri-jets to be found sadly. FX colors do look pretty good on the 767 though I have to say.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 5:57 pm

So I've been trying to recall who has been in Terminal 4 over the years. This is the list as I recall:

Current T4

AA
US
WN
BA
RV
Y4
WS

Past

HP
CO
AC
AM
LH

Are there any others I'm missing? I can't recall if Great Lakes was ever in T4.
 
wn676
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:16 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 6):
Past

HP
CO
AC
AM
LH

Are there any others I'm missing? I can't recall if Great Lakes was ever in T4.

Add TZ, LT, and HA as former occupants.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:17 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 2):
It is, as noted earlier. Their peak holiday schedule typically runs from the Thursday of the week before Christmas through the weekend after New Year's. If this schedule holds, it's on track to be the busiest season for PHX-Hawaii traffic in a long time...probably ever. Even when TZ was still operating I don't think the market saw this much.

A few years ago they operated a second KOA flight in a similar fashion for a couple of weeks but I've never seen it since. The second LIH frequency shows up sometimes during the summer on Saturdays only.

Well I had a look at the same skeds as of 05JAN and lookie here...
all the way thru until mid-March...

>TD5JANPHXHNL/FN/A+YY
TD5JANPHXHNL/FN/A+YY
TIMETABLE - TD ** HNL HONOLULU.USHI 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 HA 035 D PHX 3 HNL Z 0800 1140 0 01NOV15 11MAR16 763 6:40
2 US 690 D PHX 4 HNL M 0900 1233 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 6:33
3 US 692 D PHX 4 HNL M 1135 1512 0 01NOV15 12MAR16 757 6:37
4 US 694 D PHX 4 HNL M 1459 1832 0 21DEC15 12MAR16 757 6:33
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TC//OGG
TD05JANPHXOGG/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** OGG KAHULUI.USHI 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 412 D PHX 4 OGG 0910 1235 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 6:25
2 US 432 D PHX 4 OGG 1140 1509 0 15DEC15 12MAR16 757 6:29
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TC//KOA
TD05JANPHXKOA/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** KOA KONA.USHI 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 663 D PHX 4 KOA 1135 1500 0 17DEC15 12MAR16 757 6:25
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TC//LIH
TD05JANPHXLIH/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** LIH LIHUE.USHI 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 684 D PHX 4 LIH 1133 1517 0 21DEC15 12MAR16 757 6:44
2 US 698 D PHX 4 LIH 1450 1830 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 6:40
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

How about this? 2 daily to Kauai is being kept!

You're not kidding this is a LOT of lift to Hawaii!
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:20 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 3):
While it's true that SAN is closer and yet supports JL, the market to Tokyo was about twice the size than that from PHX before JL started flights there.

As for connecting traffic over PHX, ABQ is a great example where AA is already flowing those connections over LAX. The cities that PHX could feasibly connect that LAX/DFW currently cannot are few and far between; places like GEG, DRO, FLG, etc. Not exactly huge markets.

You seem incredibly well informed. I'll take your word for it
about the size of the SAN market, I have no reason to doubt
you given your always-intelligent posts in here.

I agree about connecting traffic...after I made my last post,
I had 2nd thoughts, remembering how AA has been boosting
service @ LAX, and yeah, can't imagine much traffic to TYO
from GEG/DRO/FLG (or YUM!! lol).
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 8):
How about this? 2 daily to Kauai is being kept!

You're not kidding this is a LOT of lift to Hawaii!

Well that's certainly something new...usually they drop back to their normal, non-flex schedule until March. And they're keeping the Complex 2 departures for HNL and OGG, though they get pushed back about 15-20 mins to leave after 9 AM. Interesting stuff, hope it lasts.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:23 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 4):
South America is another region with very weak demand out of PHX. Same goes for Mexico, I think owing to the fact that many here tend to come from regions closer to the border and are easily accessible via car/bus. HP tried and failed with MTY, we've lost ACA and GYM, and seen frequencies reduced to places like MZT and PVR. Just look at AM's abysmal service record to PHX; Y4 can't even make it daily out of season.

All that said, it's not like the market is exactly non-existent either; I think there could have been potential with an airline like CM (3/4x weekly) when PHX was a Star hub, and maybe down the road we'll see AA test the waters in another Central American market should they grow tired with LAX . SJO is still operating after all these years, albeit on a seasonal, less-than-daily basis.

Man, I'm sounding good and negative today. We need some uplifting news!

South African to start a tag from IAD to PHX...how about THAT?? LOL

Would be very cool to see FX 777's in here.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:30 pm

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 5):
I'd heard about that. In fact, when I flew out of PHX last Friday, one of their new 763s was on the cargo ramp, along with a single 757, no tri-jets to be found sadly. FX colors do look pretty good on the 767 though I have to say.

Yes as well as there is another thread that FX is pulling some more MD-11's and MD-10's. With this date it should make an interesting mix of cargo aircraft for the winter push. I will miss the tri's, but at the same time it will be nice to see something new.

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 1):
But yes, IIRC the biggest problem for them was indeed (and remains)
the wrong aircraft. An A340 (or an A330 from airBerlin for that matter) is just too big in my opinion. IF LH or AB had 787-8's, then they probably could make it work just based on O&D and cargo traffic (I always forget about cargo!). And I suppose European connections @ FRA too, there would be some as gravy.

Agree that the best plane for a Germany to PHX would be a 787 as they work well with the long thin routes.

"What do you guys make of the City lawsuit against the FAA over the new RNAV flight paths? To me it sounds like some NIMBYs just want to make noise (pun intended). "

That is exactly what it is from the Phoenix residents. I have never understood the argument of noise in the historic districts of Phoenix as you are living in the center of the city. I equate this to people who move to Goodyear, Surprise, and Litchfield Park complaining about the noise coming from Luke. The base was there long before them and they knew the proximity.

Quoting wn676 (Reply 2):
It is, as noted earlier. Their peak holiday schedule typically runs from the Thursday of the week before Christmas through the weekend after New Year's. If this schedule holds, it's on track to be the busiest season for PHX-Hawaii traffic in a long time...probably ever. Even when TZ was still operating I don't think the market saw this much.

A few years ago they operated a second KOA flight in a similar fashion for a couple of weeks but I've never seen it since. The second LIH frequency shows up sometimes during the summer on Saturdays only.

Good to know. I was on the Big Island last Christmas time and the travel around that time was expensive just for the flights. If the airlines (AA/US) can get the premium for the product and there if the demand, why not use it. Are all the flights being operated by a 752 or is there a 763 in that mix also? Is AA/US moving some of the TALT 752's to PHX for the PHX-Hawai'i routes? I know some of the old HP 752's are OLD.
The following is a breakdown of the US/AA 752 feet with age and route today.

N901AW - 29.1 Y/O - PHX - KOA - AA663
N902AW - 29.6 Y/O - OGG - PHX - AA645
N904AW - 29.2 Y/O - PHX - OGG - AA432
N905AW - 29.1 Y/O - PHX - HNL - AA664
N906AW - 29.1 Y/O - PHX - LIH - AA684
N908AW - 28.9 Y/O - PHX - LAX - PHX - AA 491
N909AW - 25.7 Y/O - HNL - PHX - AA693
N910AW - 25.6 Y/O - PHX - HNL - AA692
N935UW - 21.3 Y/O - PHL - SJU - AA678
N936UW - 21.2 Y/O - CLT - STT - AA833
N937UW - 20.9 Y/O - GLA - PHL - AA769
N938UW - 20.6 Y/O - PHX - CUN - PHX - AA515
N939UW - 20.6 Y/O - SNN - PHL - AA777
N940UW - 20.5 Y/O - BRU - PHL - AA751
N941UW - 20.4 Y/O - (NO FLIGHT IS IN MOBILE SINCE 5/18/15)
N942UW - 20.3 Y/O - LIS - PHL - AA739
N206UW - 20.2 Y/O - PHL - ORD - AA199
N200UU - 20.1 Y/O - PUJ - PHL - AA846
N201UU - 20 Y/O - PHL - PHX - AA182
N202UW - 20 Y/O - PHL - LHR - AA789
N203UW - 15 Y/O - AMS - PHL - MCO - AA799
N204UW - 14.6 Y/O - PHL - MCO - PHL - AA174
N205UW - 14.6 Y/O - PHL - CUN - PHL - AA815
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:39 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 10):
Well that's certainly something new...usually they drop back to their normal, non-flex schedule until March. And they're keeping the Complex 2 departures for HNL and OGG, though they get pushed back about 15-20 mins to leave after 9 AM. Interesting stuff, hope it lasts.

Just spit-balling here, but could AA look at PHX as their east of PHX connection point to HNL? This would reduce some of that Island traffic out of LAX and give them some more gate space at LAX for international destinations. Just a thought....

I can say one of the biggest problems I had with US in the past to Hawai'i was their departure times. If they did an AM and a PM departures to/from OGG and LIH, I bet they will get some traffic away from HA. I also find it interesting that ITO seems to never see a direct flight. I also know that a majority of the resorts are on the other side of the island an way closer to KOA.
 
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cathay747
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 12):
That is exactly what it is from the Phoenix residents. I have never understood the argument of noise in the historic districts of Phoenix as you are living in the center of the city. I equate this to people who move to Goodyear, Surprise, and Litchfield Park complaining about the noise coming from Luke. The base was there long before them and they knew the proximity.

  

When house-hunting here late last summer, I specifically
wanted to avoid being in Litchfield Park due to proximity
of Luke! I mean...DUH!

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 12):
Are all the flights being operated by a 752 or is there a 763 in that mix also?

Yes, and sadly no, at least not thru mid-March per the schedules I posted
above.

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 12):
Is AA/US moving some of the TALT 752's to PHX for the PHX-Hawai'i routes? I know some of the old HP 752's are OLD.

I don't know...does anybody else? One sure hopes because yes,
per the list you posted above, those are OLD birds! Jeez! 29 years
old???

And speaking of lists, how in hell did you put that together so fast?? LOL

FYI if you really meant which ships are operating these flights today...
AA/US645 OGG-PHX is being op'd by ship 904 not 902, it's a turn-around
of course of flight 432 from PHX to OGG.

Also the CUN ship # is not correct for today, but speaking of that flight,
look at THIS mess! ...

>1USDO515
1USDO515
** US - US AIRWAYS **
0515/04JUN
P PHX/ETD 1210P L03:25 MTR-FLIGHT DELAYED DUE TO AIRCRAFT MAIN
TENANCE
P PHX/OFF 852A *N190UW*
P PHX/FRO 1030A *N190UW*
P PHX/FRI 1040A *N190UW*
P CUN/PRE 611P L03:01 *N571UW*
P CUN/ETD 710P L02:55 LMT-FLT DLY DUE TO PRIOR AIRCRAFT MAINT
ENANCE DELAY
P PHX/ETA 1036A L15:52 *N190UW*

SKED PHX ORIG 845A GTD A23 SHIP 571
CUN 310P 415P GTA A24 GTD **** SHIP 571

Now, I'm not terribly familiar with US' coding in their FLIFO
in SHARES, but I'm guessing the "PHX/FRO" and "PHX/FRI"
is meaning "Flight Return On" and "Flight Return In" times,
so looks like an air return to field...what a horrendous delay!

Not meaning to nitpick on your ship numbers, just sayin'.

I will miss having the ship numbers in FLIFO once US migrates
to SABRE, AA doesn't put that in their FLIFO   
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wn676
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:53 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 12):
Are all the flights being operated by a 752 or is there a 763 in that mix also?

752s for now.

Quote:


Is AA/US moving some of the TALT 752's to PHX for the PHX-Hawai'i routes? I know some of the old HP 752's are OLD.

Eventually, probably. Those ex-Republic birds, 901-906, are well past their prime and something is going to have to replace them. They never received winglets because they're only certified to 240k; the rest of the fleet have 250-255k MTOWs. Currently the Hawaii subfleet (901-910 and 207) operates with a 14/176 domestic configuration while the rest is configured 12/164 with the old Envoy recliners up front. It's one of the reasons IIRC they've been reluctant to regularly deploy the former East 757s to Hawaii, though since the merger they do, or were, filling in when needed.

A while back in one of the European town halls, it was mentioned that they were studying converting the TATL 757 fleet to a new domestic configuration as they transitioned their remaining Atlantic routes to widebodies, with the 757s operating only a couple of short summer seasonal routes. I'm not sure if that's part of the discussion anymore. There's so much shuffling of the fleets that could happen now, it will be fun (hopefully) to see what they come up with.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:55 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 13):
Just spit-balling here, but could AA look at PHX as their east of PHX connection point to HNL? This would reduce some of that Island traffic out of LAX and give them some more gate space at LAX for international destinations. Just a thought....

They rely on DFW for that really. But combined with
PHX gives them increased routing options, which is
of course especially helpful with IROP situations!

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 13):
I also find it interesting that ITO seems to never see a direct flight. I also know that a majority of the resorts are on the other side of the island an way closer to KOA.

Only mainland flight to/from ITO is UA from LAX, and yes, you're quite correct,
there's not much on the Hilo side in the way of "resorts", none really, just "hotels",
but of course Hilo is closer to the Volcano Park, that's the best place to fly to
if you want to go there...quite a bit of a drive from Kona-side. I've done it. Nice
if you've never done it before, but still...
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 16):
Only mainland flight to/from ITO is UA from LAX, and yes, you're quite correct,
there's not much on the Hilo side in the way of "resorts", none really, just "hotels",
but of course Hilo is closer to the Volcano Park, that's the best place to fly to
if you want to go there...quite a bit of a drive from Kona-side. I've done it. Nice
if you've never done it before, but still...

Loved the windward side of the island. Not sure if local sentiment has anything to do with the resorts being located where they are, but agreed that it's totally worth the drive over to Hilo if you have the time. Coming across Saddle Rd at night was an experience in itself as well...

Flying into KOA a couple of times, it's pretty funny to listen to people's comments...some of them seem pretty shocked by the lack of green.

[Edited 2015-06-04 12:09:01]
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 17):
Coming across Saddle Rd at night was an experience in itself as well...

Wow, you drove that, at night??? Isn't that the road that goes up
and around Mauna Loa??
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:30 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 18):
Wow, you drove that, at night??? Isn't that the road that goes up
and around Mauna Loa??

Yup, watched the sunset from the 9,200' point (the road above that was closed due to 80+ mph winds) and then descended through the clouds darkness. Not sure if I'd ever want to do it again with all those sharp dips and turns once you get past that DoD training area.
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aztrainer
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:37 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 17):
Loved the windward side of the island. Not sure if local sentiment has anything to do with the resorts being located where they are, but agreed that it's totally worth the drive over to Hilo if you have the time. Coming across Saddle Rd at night was an experience in itself as well...

I did the same thing and it was not as bad as people said, BUT I did not get stuck behind a person driving slow.

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 14):
And speaking of lists, how in hell did you put that together so fast?? LOL

Got to love summer break and all I used was Flightaware, so if there were errors that is where they came from.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 8:31 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 16):
They rely on DFW for that really. But combined with
PHX gives them increased routing options, which is
of course especially helpful with IROP situations!

PHX allows them KOA and KIH which they don't do and probably can't do from DFW. Of course they can be done from LAX so that doesn't mean PHX is required.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 13):

I think an 7-9:00am departure from both HNL and OGG to PHX, arriving 5:00pm-7:00pm would do some good, then the return flight (with the same or different 757) could fly out 5:00-9:00pm, arriving 8:00pm-11pm, spending the night in HNL/OGG, then doing the return. It seems if it was timed correctly, you could hit the last bank of central time zone departures, all of the mountain west cities, and a few of the flights like TUS, YUM, and FLG.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 19):
Yup, watched the sunset from the 9,200' point (the road above that was closed due to 80+ mph winds) and then descended through the clouds darkness. Not sure if I'd ever want to do it again with all those sharp dips and turns once you get past that DoD training area.

WOW! Must have been awesome!

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 20):
Got to love summer break and all I used was Flightaware, so if there were errors that is where they came from.

Ah yes, good ole Flightaware. Gotcha.

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 21):
PHX allows them KOA and KIH which they don't do and probably can't do from DFW. Of course they can be done from LAX so that doesn't mean PHX is required.

Good point...a 763 on DFW-KOA or DFW-LIH would NEVER be viable! Unless
they did a round-robin like when UA ran the 772 ORD-HNL-KOA-HNL for
a while.

And while we're on the topic, here are the return schedules for what
I posted above...interesting to see that US/AA have a non-red-eye back
from both HNL (like HA...way to go!) and OGG:

TD5JANHNLPHX/FN/A+YY
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 HA 036 D HNL Z PHX 3 1300 2200 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 763 6:00
2 US 690 D HNL M PHX 4 1405 2257 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 5:52
3 US 693 D HNL M PHX 4 2210 0703+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 5:53
4 US 675 D HNL M PHX 4 2350 0843+1 0 01NOV15 11MAR16 757 5:53
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCOGG
TD05JANOGGPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 412 D OGG PHX 4 1415 2258 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 5:43
2 US 645 D OGG PHX 4 2330 0814+1 0 15DEC15 11MAR16 757 5:44
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCKOA
TD05JANKOAPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 664 D KOA PHX 4 2345 0827+1 0 17DEC15 11MAR16 757 5:42
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCLIH
TD05JANLIHPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 697 D LIH PHX 4 2210 0710+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 6:00
2 US 678 D LIH PHX 4 2301 0800+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 5:59
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 22):

I think an 7-9:00am departure from both HNL and OGG to PHX, arriving 5:00pm-7:00pm would do some good, then the return flight (with the same or different 757) could fly out 5:00-9:00pm, arriving 8:00pm-11pm, spending the night in HNL/OGG, then doing the return. It seems if it was timed correctly, you could hit the last bank of central time zone departures, all of the mountain west cities, and a few of the flights like TUS, YUM, and FLG.

They've been reluctant to go with the late arrivals in Hawaii for a long time. The latest currently is the 18:00 departure that to date has mostly op'd during the winter flex, but this summer on Saturdays they have a 16:55 departure (which goes out in the same bank as the other flight; DST adjustment). I say mostly because for the first year or so of HP and subsequently US operating PHX-Hawaii, they did have a late afternoon departure but it eventually moved to mid-morning departure and early afternoon if a second flight was scheduled. From what I recall it had something to do with check-in preferences of pax arriving on the island. Even with the later departure, that aircraft still turns to a redeye back to PHX instead of RONing and departing Hawaii in the AM.

The only time they've ever had a morning departure out of HNL was when they scheduled one of the East 757s out there for like a month about 5 years ago. It departed PHX at 10:35 and didn't arrive back until around 18:00 the next day. The reason was due to them wanting to use the same crew for the same aircraft. If not for that, it probably would have been the typical redeye return.

The early AM departures out of PHX (like the HA schedule) work great for US when they're on flex; the PM arrival back in PHX is timed to meet the eastbound redeye bank. For that reason, you don't see it always operating...that's what's so interesting about this new January schedule they have loaded. Will flex become a permanent fixture?
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:31 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 24):
Will flex become a permanent fixture?

Still being a bit new here, can u explain what you keep referring
to as "flex" i.e. winter flex? Enquiring minds would like to know  
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 25):
Still being a bit new here, can u explain what you keep referring
to as "flex" i.e. winter flex? Enquiring minds would like to know

Basically, it's the addition of a couple of late PM banks, one westbound and one eastbound, that US instituted at the end of 2009 and slowly upgauged to its current form over a year or so after that. There's some extra flying outside of those banks that gets added to the schedule as well, like an extra flight to DEN (not sure if that one is still around), BOI, the daytime HNL/OGG turns, etc. When it started it was a net gain of something like 25-30 flights. This was more or less the old LAS late-night operation being moved down to PHX as that hub was closed down, though there was about a year and half in-between when all that capacity simply didn't exist. They refer to it as flex since they can scale it up or down without any huge issues with staffing/equipment/infrastructure availability.

[Edited 2015-06-04 15:48:43]
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:18 am

Quoting wn676 (Reply 26):
Basically, it's the addition of a couple of late PM banks, one westbound and one eastbound, that US instituted at the end of 2009 and slowly upgauged to its current form over a year or so after that. There's some extra flying outside of those banks that gets added to the schedule as well, like an extra flight to DEN (not sure if that one is still around), BOI, the daytime HNL/OGG turns, etc. When it started it was a net gain of something like 25-30 flights. This was more or less the old LAS late-night operation being moved down to PHX as that hub was closed down, though there was about a year and half in-between when all that capacity simply didn't exist. They refer to it as flex since they can scale it up or down without any huge issues with staffing/equipment/infrastructure availability.

Most informative...THANK YOU! Very interesting...I wonder if the
"new AA" will continue this practice? Or maybe will this be the
"downsizing" or "right-sizing" that we all keep speculating about
regarding the PHX hub? Only time will tell, but we'll see.

[Edited 2015-06-04 18:19:58]
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:15 am

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 27):
"downsizing" or "right-sizing" that we all keep speculating about
regarding the PHX hub? Only time will tell, but we'll see.

If there is a right sizing, I would be surprised if it affects the flex scheduling as that is largely utilization flying that would otherwise sit idle.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:45 am

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 27):

Flexing is a really useful tool because it allows schedulers to meet increased or decreased demand without putting significantly more stress on the system than usual. It's an excellent method of maximizing revenue and limiting costs. It's worked out really well for US; given that a good portion of the new AA management came from US, and that pre-merger US functioned more efficiently and cost effectively than AA, I would expect them to continue the practice. If it ain't broke, they shouldn't fix it.

Another scheduling scheme that is comparative is one that Delta has used for a couple of years. They'll float additional frequencies in their schedule many months beforehand, including extending seasonal flights/frequencies to see if customer demand for more flights or a longer seasonal schedule can meet their expectations. You can clearly see this if you follow the OAG threads. They'll add a bunch of flights, give it a few weeks, and cut back whatever doesn't meet their expectations. It seems to be a little less calculated than US' flex system and it can cause inconvenience to passengers who book flights that subsequently require scheduling changes when the trial frequencies are cut. However, it lets them very accurately gauge demand for a given route to measure its performance, and see if it can sustainably handle extra frequencies, an extension of seasonal ops, or even a switch from seasonal to year-round. They've got a lot of slack in their fleet to manage such a scheduling method, which is something US and UA are far less capable of doing.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:06 pm

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 29):
Flexing is a really useful tool because it allows schedulers to meet increased or decreased demand without putting significantly more stress on the system than usual. It's an excellent method of maximizing revenue and limiting costs. It's worked out really well for US; given that a good portion of the new AA management came from US, and that pre-merger US functioned more efficiently and cost effectively than AA, I would expect them to continue the practice. If it ain't broke, they shouldn't fix it.

Another scheduling scheme that is comparative is one that Delta has used for a couple of years. They'll float additional frequencies in their schedule many months beforehand, including extending seasonal flights/frequencies to see if customer demand for more flights or a longer seasonal schedule can meet their expectations. You can clearly see this if you follow the OAG threads. They'll add a bunch of flights, give it a few weeks, and cut back whatever doesn't meet their expectations. It seems to be a little less calculated than US' flex system and it can cause inconvenience to passengers who book flights that subsequently require scheduling changes when the trial frequencies are cut. However, it lets them very accurately gauge demand for a given route to measure its performance, and see if it can sustainably handle extra frequencies, an extension of seasonal ops, or even a switch from seasonal to year-round. They've got a lot of slack in their fleet to manage such a scheduling method, which is something US and UA are far less capable of doing.

Great info...thanks!
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aztrainer
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:40 pm

This is where I am wondering if AA/US really wants to eliminate the 757 in TALT they can put some of those frames on the PHX to Hawai'i routes. I know all the old HP birds are 25 year old +. This could get extra load capability to the Hawai'i lift for AA and not have to work about working around the LAX constriction.



Quoting cathay747 (Reply 23):
TD5JANHNLPHX/FN/A+YY
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 HA 036 D HNL Z PHX 3 1300 2200 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 763 6:00
2 US 690 D HNL M PHX 4 1405 2257 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 5:52
3 US 693 D HNL M PHX 4 2210 0703+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 5:53
4 US 675 D HNL M PHX 4 2350 0843+1 0 01NOV15 11MAR16 757 5:53
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCOGG
TD05JANOGGPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 412 D OGG PHX 4 1415 2258 0 01JAN16 12MAR16 757 5:43
2 US 645 D OGG PHX 4 2330 0814+1 0 15DEC15 11MAR16 757 5:44
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCKOA
TD05JANKOAPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 664 D KOA PHX 4 2345 0827+1 0 17DEC15 11MAR16 757 5:42
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

>TCLIH
TD05JANLIHPHX/A+YY/FN -TC-
TIMETABLE - TD ** PHX PHOENIX.USAZ 05JAN16 12JAN16
1 US 697 D LIH PHX 4 2210 0710+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 6:00
2 US 678 D LIH PHX 4 2301 0800+1 0 01JAN16 11MAR16 757 5:59
NO MORE FLIGHTS 05JAN16 TO 12JAN16

Thanks for the info, I read the A/C's first and saw the 763 on the HNL route and then realized it was HA-36.

I am hoping someone can help me understand something with these return flights. They have two LIH - PHX leaving 50 minutes apart and the two HNL - PHX flight leaving 1:50 apart. Why would they not want to have the flights leave at around 14:00 like the HNL flight? I know when I flew the late HNL-PHX, I hated it as I did not sleep on the flight and landing at 6:30AM and was dead tired all day long.

With Flex how many aircraft are positioned in the case of an MX situation? Lets say a HNL bird goes down, do they have just the two options of getting it fixed ASAP (Yes, I know this is the logical one) or ferrying in a spare from one of these staging locations?
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting wn676 (Reply 7):

Add TZ, LT, and HA as former occupants.

When was TZ in T4? I only remember them being in T3 south, next to YX's gate back in the day.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting KGRB (Reply 32):
When was TZ in T4? I only remember them being in T3 south, next to YX's gate back in the day.

When WN took over their ops they were operating flights to Hawaii from the high C gates. It was an afternoon with a redeye turn in Hawaii. Then it would just sit at C14/16 all day. I believe that only lasted a year or two 2009-2010.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 33):
When WN took over their ops they were operating flights to Hawaii from the high C gates. It was an afternoon with a redeye turn in Hawaii. Then it would just sit at C14/16 all day. I believe that only lasted a year or two 2009-2010.

Yep, I remember seeing their 757's and there. I think I remember also seeing their L-1011 at PHX also, but I am not sure.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:17 pm

Quoting aztrainer (Reply 34):
I think I remember also seeing their L-1011 at PHX also, but I am not sure.

Those were mostly used for military charters for them. I definitely remember seeing it, but I'm not sure it ever operated scheduled from PHX.
 
93Sierra
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:43 pm

I remember seeing the TZ 757 parked south of T-2/ Swissport area during the day
 
93Sierra
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:44 pm

When did WN move their ops from the B gates of T-4 north?
 
wn676
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:52 pm

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 37):

When did WN move their ops from the B gates of T-4 north?


That was around early 2005 when S2 (D gates) opened.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:18 pm

For whomever was wondering last thread about the AA CR9s, OO operates 4 as of right now and YV 16. There are currently 10 CR2s in the system (currently 468CA, 496CA, 506CA, 821AS, 875AS, 885AS, 886AS, 889AS, 906SW and 907SW). All of those will be replaced with the ones from LAX plus two more to cover some of the flying. It will be a net reduction of two frames but the late August schedule still shows a summer flex schedule so it indicates to me that Mesa must be picking up a flight or two.

YV also displaced one bird worth of pilots from PHX to DFW but for now there is no cut in number of flights so it looks like they will be routing crews and planes via places like ELP.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:38 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 33):
I believe that only lasted a year or two 2009-2010.

Didn't TZ go out of business in 2008? HP wet leased a TZ L-1011 to replace the 747 service to HNL back in 1992.

[Edited 2015-06-06 17:56:39]
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:44 am

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 33):
Then it would just sit at C14/16 all day. I believe that only lasted a year or two 2009-2010.

Make that 2006-2008.

Quoting 910A (Reply 40):
Didn't TZ go out of business in 2008?

Yep. In fact, the last flight to land was 4586 HNL-PHX.

Also, Southwest (who did their ground handling in PHX) bought and still owns the operating certificate and all the intellectual property.
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:56 am

Anyone heard anything about DL starting up service from IWA to SLC and LAX via Skywest? According to a close friend who works for the airport/city, paint marks for Crj 200/700 are in the works.
 
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treebeard787
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 42):
Anyone heard anything about DL starting up service from IWA to SLC and LAX via Skywest? According to a close friend who works for the airport/city, paint marks for Crj 200/700 are in the works.

I'd personally be surprised if that comes to fruition, DL already runs a sizable schedule to both SLC, and LAX from PHX. I would certainly welcome the new service to IWA though.
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cageyjames
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting treebeard787 (Reply 43):
I'd personally be surprised if that comes to fruition, DL already runs a sizable schedule to both SLC, and LAX from PHX. I would certainly welcome the new service to IWA though.

Yea I think the IWA boat has sailed. Once NK moved to PHX, the gig was up. It's the SFB of Phoenix.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:58 am

Quoting KGRB (Reply 32):
When was TZ in T4? I only remember them being in T3 south, next to YX's gate back in the day.

Prior to that, they shared a gate with DL in T3N. In like the 90s.
 
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atcsundevil
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:00 am

Quoting 93Sierra (Reply 42):
Anyone heard anything about DL starting up service from IWA to SLC and LAX via Skywest? According to a close friend who works for the airport/city, paint marks for Crj 200/700 are in the works.

That would be awesome if true, but until it's official, I'll remain skeptical. A couple of years ago, there were supposedly finalized plans for UA to begin service (CR7 operated by SkyWest to fly from IWA-ORD and possibly a SkyWest CR2 to SFO), but it never came to fruition.

I do think it's a matter of time before a carrier (legacy or otherwise) already serving PHX takes a stab at also serving IWA. I think this is a more likely scenario than attracting a new carrier to the valley (since they'd surely just choose PHX given the failed NK experiment) or getting one to switch to IWA (which wouldn't make much sense). Yes, F9 tried both and failed, but that's when F9 threw darts at a map and went with whatever stuck, so I don't consider them a valid comparison.

The east valley is quite affluent, and easy access to the airport would make it a convenient option for close to two million people. If this rumor proves true, it has a chance at success if it's done right; I think a legacy or WN probably has the best chance due to widespread brand recognition, something neither NK or F9 has in the valley. However, it also has to be done at the right time. It's hard to say if now is the right time, or even when the right time might be. The local economy has improved, the growth of the ASU Poly Campus and Gilbert plays a role, as does the continued population growth in the far east valley. Whether it has yet reached enough critical mass to support a traditional, non-niche carrier remains to be seen.

Having the new terminal facilities would be a huge help in all of this in terms of making it a more "civilized" airport, but that in itself represents a conundrum for the airport -- they can't justify building a new terminal with only one carrier, but it's difficult to attract and maintain more than the one carrier without having a new terminal. If they can get DL and possibly one other carrier to make the leap and commit to staying for a little while, then I think they could safely move forward with their plans, which I believe initially calls for a 20 gate terminal building and a new control tower. Offering incentives like they have in the past should help, at least.

IWA will get there eventually, it's just hard to say how long it's going to take.
 
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 12:43 pm

I was told a 2x departure to LAX, am and pm, and a once daily to SLC. The airport sends out surveys randomly and La area is always in the top 5 requested destinations. The SLC flight if times right would allow for one stop connections for a large number of destinations. Last year in July the Arizona Republic stated that the airport was in serious talks with another carrier, I don't know if it was DL or UA.

On a side note, anybody know anything new with the other commercial airports in the state? TUS Just got 3x to Lax on DL bringing the total cities served by dl up to five from tuscon. http://m.tucson.com/business/local/d...020a11c9f60.html?mobile_touch=true IFP ( might loose a large chunk of pax if SY shuts down ), IGM - just lost their Great Lakes flight to LAX, SOW- just lost their EAS status and ZK was voted out and Boutique Air brought in, FLG, YUM (NYL) - no more United Express with the parking of the Bros, PRC, etc..... Thanks everyone.

[Edited 2015-06-07 05:48:06]
 
GRUIAD
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting cathay747 (Reply 9):

The SAN-NRT local market size in 2010 was more than double that of PHX-NRT. If you add the component of SAN traffic that used LAX for flights to NRT the differential was even greater.
 
aztrainer
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RE: Phoenix Arizona Aviation Thread Part 14

Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:38 pm

With G4's success at IWA is the idea of expansion out of the box? No, I do not think so. Would flights between LAX and IWA make sense, yes. My problem is that I do not think that DL would be the airline to try this type of route. US/AA seems as it would be more of a logical choice as their familiarity in the market and access to infrastructure so close.

SLC would also be a logical flight from IWA with the Mormon population in the east valley and eastern Arizona. Sticking with CRJ's they are not putting that much on the line with these routes. Also that could add another mainline to PHX by taking some of the CRJ traffic out of the mix.

I think the problem NK had in IWA is that you had two ULCC fighting it out. G4 seemed to put more behind their effort than NK did at IWA.

Do I see IWA becoming a secondary airport, Yes in time.....but saying that it will be a long time in the future. Until they get another mainline airline to open a station to IWA it seems as it will be very unlikely. I know that they already have plans for the terminal on the NE side of the runways.

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