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Okcflyer
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UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:37 am

I've been flying out of OKC for almost 3 years. At most we had a morning 737 or A-series (more common of late) departure to IAH. It arrived around 7 or so the evening before and parked overnight and headed back in the morning.

Later this year DEN transitions to 4 mainline trips a day (A319). There's a mainline coming in from ORD and heading to IAH. These are certainly welcomed developments.

We were one of the first stations to get a sizable chunk of EJet flying. I find it strange how a station can go from primary 145's and CR7's to several mainlines in just over a year. I highly doubt traffic is up much if at all.

That said, I took an a320 down to IAH last Sunday at noon and it had less than 5 seats not filled.

Was United's fleet strategy that far out of whack a year or two ago? Comments or thoughts on the development?

[Edited 2015-06-04 19:49:37]

[Edited 2015-06-04 19:51:36]
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:53 am

Frontier pulled out of DEN-OKC which prompted some need to add seats in that market.

UA is rapidly changing their fleet strategy which includes bringing more mainline flying online. A rising tide raises all boats and is nothing specific to OKC.
 
n7371f
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 1):
Frontier pulled out of DEN-OKC which prompted some need to add seats in that market.

And the Q400 is winding down, a very frequent visitor to OKC from DEN.
 
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ramprat74
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:48 am

Get rid of mainline employee's and then bring in mainline aircraft. Seems about right.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:54 am

Quoting OKCFlyer (Thread starter):
Was United's fleet strategy that far out of whack a year or two ago?

In a word, yes.

United was chronically short of domestic mainline aircraft post-merger. The sUA 737s were retired in 2008/9 when the economy was in free-fall, and were never replaced. sCO did have 737s on order but they were used to replace their own 737-300/500s. After they were gone the new deliveries went to replacing the sUA 757s, with only limited mainline growth. This meant that United was in a position of having fewer mainline domestic aircraft than the two standalone airlines did, say, 2 years before the merger. Add to this the fact that sCO had the most restrictive scope clause in the industry (no jets over 50 seats at Express) which meant that CR7s and E70s from the sUA side were moved into IAH and EWR after the meger. Those aircraft necessarily came from ORD, IAD and DEN as sUA was pretty much topped out on their own scope clause. This created a vicious cycle where routes which sUA had operated with 733s and 319s a year or two previously were now operated by E145s, as mainline was replaced by large RJs and then those large RJs were in turn shifted to other hubs. Between 2010 and 2014 United's narrow body mainline and large RJs fleets were spread very, very fin. That is only just begun to correct itself in the last 12 months with more large RJs and more mainline narrow bodies.

IMHO there were two missteps, one pre and one post merger. Pre-merger United should have had a strategy to replace the 737s that they parked, and post-merger United should have expanded their mainline domestic fleet sooner. I don't know whether they were coming up on HMVs, but in hindsight it seems very short sighted to have parked the sCO 733s and 735s.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
COSPN
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:54 am

DEN-IND will be 2 per day mainline same as OKC F9 cut a flight
 
avi8
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:49 am

Where are they getting this availability from? The new use airplanes have not come online yet and the mainline fleet isn't growing with the 757's being phased out at lightning speed. Am I missing something? It seems like a lot of mainline flights are coming back.
avi8
 
ordbosewr
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 6):
Where are they getting this availability from?

That is not a simple answer.
I would suggest most of it comes with the rapid ramp up in E-175 additions to the fleet and some reduction in frequencies you are seeing across the network. Some stations are going from 5x 145's to 3x 170's, essentially the same seat count, but fewer flights.
By making these 2 moves, they are able to remove 145's and 200's from the fleet.
The 175's are taking some of the 170's routes.
This does allow mainline to take some routes back. As I have seen some routes that were A319's that have been a mix of A319's and express to go all 175's.

The last point I would make is the reduced number of modification programs that are happening. If I recall from another thread here someone stated that UA would have over 30 mainline aircraft in modification stations at one time with all of the seating changes, wifi, power, etc.
Many of those are winding down and hence, they will have increased utilization across the network allowing them to add flights without adding planes.

All of this is a good result.
I just booked a trip from EWR-MSP. Prior to merger (both NW and DL and with UA), CO was running all 737 service to MSP, but when the merger happened between DL and NW, they had a tough time filling the planes (I would be on a 737 with only 40-50 people, it was great for us but had to awful for profitability). CO had a tough decision for those routes, either a 737 or a 145, that was the only options they had. So they went to 145's and it has been miserable since.
Now with the merger with UA the route got some 170's and 700's so it got a little better.
Now, I am actually flying an A319 to MSP and a 175 home. Has frequency dropped? Yes, with the 145's they were consistantly doing 4-5 trips a day (sometimes more). I think the number has dropped to a solid 4.
At the same time DL is running mostly 190's on the EWR-MSP-EWR route (they did run 717's for awhile, but appears to have stopped on the last time I checked flights)
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:04 pm

The first ex-Copa 73G starts revenue service with UA flight today (June 5)....IAH-SNA. It's a start!

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N15751
 
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adamblang
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:23 pm

Quoting avi8 (Reply 6):
Where are they getting this availability from?


Cleveland.

Other strategic trims to the route network.

A 787-9 delivery displacing a 767-300 here, a 767-300 displacing a 757-200 there, a 757-200s bumping 737-900 in another place, a 737-900 swapping for an A320 in yet another, an A319 that was too much plane at some point in the day getting down gauged to a E175. With the 787s coming on line and the 767s not leaving, the rapid entry of the E175s into the fleet, the rapid exit of CRJ-200s and ERJ-145s, 737-900 deliveries holding capacity-wide as the 757-200s retire, the entry (soon) of second-hand A319s and 737-700s, and the cascading up gauge effect (soon) caused by domestic 777-200s, United's very rapidly transitioning from stuck flying 50 seat regional jets a thousand times a day to putting the right aircraft at the right frequency on the right routes.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting OKCFlyer (Thread starter):
Was United's fleet strategy that far out of whack a year or two ago?

Yes

Quoting avi8 (Reply 6):
Where are they getting this availability from?
Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 7):
That is not a simple answer.

But you did a very good job of explaining it. Well done.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Fri Jun 05, 2015 3:02 pm

Quoting rdh3e (Reply 10):
But you did a very good job of explaining it. Well done.

Yes. And it's good news for travelers. The harder question is how to win back those who defected because of the incessant use of 50-seaters on far-too-long routes. UA has the misfortune of having a lot of competition in its hubs, never mind the outstations.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Okcflyer
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:44 am

Quoting jetmatt777 (Reply 1):
Frontier pulled out of DEN-OKC which prompted some need to add seats in that market.


SWA picked up quite a bit of that slack from how it "feels". Haven't checked the numbers.

Interesting explanations for UA Fleet policy. Certainly exciting times if you like change.

I rate the experience of the 170/175's as the same as 737/A320. EJets are slightly more comfy in coach. 737/320 slightly better in first. Great chance of upgrade to first with 12F in the 175's. Limited opportunity with the 8F 319's. Bags come 10 minutes faster with the Ejets too, less clustering, better loading on resources.

What other cities are getting UA mainline back?
 
afcjets
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:23 am

Quoting OKCFlyer (Thread starter):
I find it strange how a station can go from primary 145's and CR7's to several mainlines in just over a year. I highly doubt traffic is up much if at all.

Isn't OKC the fastest growing mid sized city in the US right now?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
The sUA 737s were retired in 2008/9 when the economy was in free-fall, and were never replaced. sCO did have 737s on order but they were used to replace their own 737-300/500s.

I keeping seeing mention of sUA and sCO, what does it stand for? When the AA/US merger is referenced LUS and LAA are always used where the L stands for legacy, why the inconsistency? And what letter are we using for DL/NW ?? For some reason pm comes to mind, which makes no sense because it could stand for both pre merger or post merger in the case of DL (not NW though)

[Edited 2015-06-05 18:26:29]
 
jetmatt777
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 12):
SWA picked up quite a bit of that slack from how it "feels". Haven't checked the numbers.

No, southwest is still offering the same number of flights per day as they have for years -- 3 round trips.
 
UA1K3MM
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:08 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 13):

"I keeping seeing mention of sUA and sCO, what does it stand for? When the AA/US merger is referenced LUS and LAA are always used where the L stands for legacy, why the inconsistency?"


The company name is United Continental Holdings -- since the merger many have referred to sUA as aircraft from the United "subsidiary" fleet and sCO for Continetal aircraft. The same applied to employee groups until they reached a joint contract like the pilots. You may still see the Flight Attendants referred to in the same manner since they can only work on aircraft from their subsidiary fleet. I.e. sUA FAs will only be working on the A319/320s since these aircraft are in the sUA fleet. Hopefully, this summer the FAs will reach a joint contract agreement and the entire crew can start cross fleeting.
Hope this helps.   
 
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Jamake1
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting OKCFlyer (Reply 12):

What other cities are getting UA mainline back?

Madison, WI and either Louisville KY or Nashville TN. I would love to see UA mainline return to BTV...
Come fly the sun.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 9:07 am

Quoting afcjets (Reply 13):
I keeping seeing mention of sUA and sCO, what does it stand for?

"Subsidiary United" and "Subsidiary Continental", it's what United Continental Holdings used internally.

Having watched the three mergers on Anet, each had a different differentiator. IIRC PMNW and PMDL was the most commonly used abbreviation on this site, then sCO and sUA and now LUS and LAA. Isn't "Legacy US Airways" again what is being used internally by AAG? I think what the airline themselves use is what sticks.
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
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RWA380
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 12:23 pm

Quoting OKCFlyer (Thread starter):
That said, I took an a320 down to IAH last Sunday at noon and it had less than 5 seats not filled.

Sunday at noon is a popular time to fly, if you're coming home from a weekend away, you've just checked out of your hotel & wanting or needing to get home. I'd say tell me what the noon flight on a Tuesday or Wednesday is like, I bet traffic is up for Oklahoma City Y.O.Y.

Quoting OKCFlyer (Thread starter):
We were one of the first stations to get a sizable chunk of EJet flying. I find it strange how a station can go from primary 145's and CR7's to several mainlines in just over a year. I highly doubt traffic is up much if at all.

AS seems to think so, with new non-stop to SEA & with F9 leaving DEN-OKC as was mentioned above, seems UA is finally in the position to add mainline domestic aircraft, which is long overdue. I think many of UA's routes will see up-gauges as narrow body aircraft come along.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
Pre-merger United should have had a strategy to replace the 737s that they parked,

Wasn't that the large amount of A - 320's they obtained & are still currently flying? Certainly not a 1 for 1 replacement schedule though.

UA sure had a lot of 737s back in the 70's, 80's & 90's, they also had a huge west coast network that the 737 was the main part of for those decades that they were the big dog on the left coast.

Now the west coast flying is all but gone (sans SFO) & so are the 737's, I remember flying 737-100/200/300/500's on United & Shuttle by United.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 4):
and post-merger United should have expanded their mainline domestic fleet sooner.

Weren't they restricted with merger logistics, like pilots contracts & other unionized groups & their contracts?

Wasn't adding new aircraft more difficult during those first few post merger years, other than those planes on order at the time of the merger by the respective carriers?
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
AA AC AQ AS BA BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN WP YS 8M
 
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STT757
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:21 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 7):
Prior to merger (both NW and DL and with UA), CO was running all 737 service to MSP, but when the merger happened between

I flew MSP-EWR in Summer 2008 on a ERJ-145. Most of the flights then were ERJ-145s.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 7):
Now with the merger with UA the route got some 170's and 700's so it got a little better.
Now, I am actually flying an A319 to MSP and a 175 home. Has frequency dropped? Yes, with the 145's they were consistantly doing 4-5 trips a day (sometimes more). I think the number has dropped to a solid 4.

Are you talking about EWR?

UA doesn't operate CRJ-700s into EWR. EWR-MSP, along with EWR-DTW, is all ERJ-170s. Also they're not reducing frequencies in those markets but rather increasing them.

EWR-MSP is going 7x daily ERJ-170s
EWR-DTW is 6x daily ERJ-170

Also there are no ERJ-175s in EWR, yet.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 7):
At the same time DL is running mostly 190's on the EWR-MSP-EWR route (they did run 717's for awhile, but appears to have stopped on the last time I checked flights)

DL doesn't have any ERJ-190s. They fly EWR-MSP with A320s, A319s, ERJ-75s and CRJ-900s.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I remember flying 737-100/200/300/500's on United & Shuttle by United.

UA never operated the 737-100, CO did. CO inherited the 737-100s from PeoplExpress who got them from Lufthansa. They flew with CO until around 1997/1998. I flew it we PE and CO EWR-BUF.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA Adding DEN, ORD Mainline @ OKC

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:56 pm

Quoting Jamake1 (Reply 16):
Madison, WI and either Louisville KY or Nashville TN. I would love to see UA mainline return to BTV...

I don't know about SDF, but BNA is definitely getting mainline back.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more

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