Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24269
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:12 am

Thailand's transport ministry and military agreed upgrade and open U-Tapao airport to serve as Bangkok's 3rd international airport.

Plans are to have the military airport located 80 miles south east of central Bangkok serve scheduled commercial operations effective June 1st 2016.

The airport which currently host charter services from China and Russia would have an initial annual capacity of 3 million enplanements with expansion to 5 million after 2018.

The government will invite carriers operating at Suvarnabhumi airport to also serve U-Tapao. Air Asia also has said it would introduce service to 6 destinations from U-Tapao as well.

Its believed the airport would also attract traffic from poplar tourist destinations such as Pattaya which is located about 1-hour away.

Few stories:
U-Tapao to become Bangkok's 3rd commercial airport
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/tran...ome-bangkok-3rd-commercial-airport

Thailand to construct commercial airport at U-Tapao
http://www.airport-technology.com/ne...-at-u-tapao-naval-air-base-4593389

Thailand plans to build new international airport outside Bangkok
http://www.traveller.com.au/thailand...nal-airport-outside-bangkok-ghgw6e

=

I suppose it makes sense for Pattaya destined travelers but wonder if it will only serve to further fragment Bangkok airlinks, though might be popular with LCCs still even with the distance.

About 15-years ago I flew in/out of UTP on the military freighter and airfield is certainly large and lots of room to accommodate lots of activity. The field was funded by the US government and during Vietnam war is was a base for B-52 and KC-135s.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
behramjee
Posts: 5043
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:31 am

Would it make sense to swallow some pride and rename it as Pattaya international airport in order to boost its arrival numbers ?
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2641
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:43 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 1):
Would it make sense to swallow some pride and rename it as Pattaya international airport in order to boost its arrival numbers ?

I find the name very odd?
it doesn't sound very thai.
does anyone know what it is named after, or is it a remnant of it's role as an US air base?
 
migair54
Posts: 2437
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:24 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:50 am

Calling UTP the third airport of BKK is too much, even for a low cost, it's 1 hour from Pattaya but after it, not even between Bangkok and Pattaya. 178 kms from Bangkok almost like BHX from London.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 1):
Would it make sense to swallow some pride and rename it as Pattaya international airport in order to boost its arrival numbers ?

It will be wise, U-tapao-Pattaya International.
 
Thai77w
Posts: 371
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:56 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:57 am

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 2):
find the name very odd?
it doesn't sound very thai.
does anyone know what it is named after, or is it a remnant of it's role as an US air base?

It is indeed Thai origin the name... อู่ตะเภา (U-Tapao) is derived from the name Ruea-Tapao (เรือตะเภา) Which is the name of a kind of merchant ship built at a shipyard located in the area.
Aircraft types I've been on: PA31,Q300,AT75,AT76,717,733,738,739ER,763,772,77E,773,77W,788,789,744,319,320,332,333,346,359,380
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:59 am

Third Bangkok airport is a bit far fetched, even for (former) FR standards. I see the reason and the market for such an airport, as it provides more direct access to the southeast coast, but its purpose is surely not to serve Bangkok. Rather, to serve as an alternative to Bangkok for those wanting to hit the beach directly.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14845
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):

I also know it as Rayong, years ago we used to take a jumbo and a group of new pilots there for a week to do circuits.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ASA
Posts: 1112
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 5:12 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):

Calling UTP the third airport of BKK is too much, even for a low cost, it's 1 hour from Pattaya but after it, not even between Bangkok and Pattaya. 178 kms from Bangkok almost like BHX from London.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 1):
Would it make sense to swallow some pride and rename it as Pattaya international airport in order to boost its arrival numbers ?

It will be wise, U-tapao-Pattaya International.

On Google Maps ... it's already called the "Utapao-Rayong-Pataya International Airport" ...
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Utapao-Rayong-Pataya+International+Airport/@12.675137,101.0062126,14z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x5c8b218029d8ba4e

Massive facility ... the entire area is a military town ... you can tell. Also, looks like TG has some maintenance operations there ... on the northeastern corner of the airfield?
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24269
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 2:49 pm

Quoting ASA (Reply 7):
Also, looks like TG has some maintenance operations there ... on the northeastern corner of the airfield?

In 1990s TG opended a hangar at UTP and can do heavy checks primarily on widebodies. UTP serves as the companies second maintenance base after its primary DMK facilities.

UTP also serves as location to park derelict/retired airplanes by TG.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19293
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:18 pm

Too fragmented... The competing hubs should say thank you. There just won't be the connections. Two more runways at BKK with new rail would be better.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24269
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Two more runways at BKK with new rail would be better.

Earlier this year Airports of Thailand (AoT) scrapped pending idea for terminal expansion and a 3rd runway at BKK.

Instead AoT will follow a previously approved plans that would not see additional airport phases built until 2020 at the earliest.

Government seems more focused on modernizing reopened Don Mueang Airport instead of Suvarnabhumi.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
User avatar
thekorean
Posts: 1795
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):

Why? What was the point of BKK then?

Shut down Don Mueang and expand BKK.
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Fri Jun 05, 2015 9:24 pm

Dont they have lots of facility issues at Suvarnabhumi. Sinking runway, terminals etc?

Don Mueang location obviously is great. I suspect the government believes they can achieve more with less money modernizing DMK versus spending they would need at BKK.

Also if you look at the market, the massive growth in the regional is much thanks to the LCC sector so they cater to their needs versus TG needs at BKK as the airline is actually shrinking after all.
mercure f-wtcc
 
ORDJOE
Posts: 681
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:27 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:10 am

I went through this airport when it was functioning as the main Bangkok airport in the 2008 airport protest that shut it down. That terminal while spartan was able to accomodate a whole lot more people than you would think. It is a fair drive out. Agreed though, just call it pattaya international
 
Homobohemicus
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:58 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:22 am

Not certain how well this will go with the "Navy" as I know the Ministry of Defence and mainly the Navy was and is against using U-tapao as a commercial airport and their wish to keep it mostly as a military facility
 
infinit
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:32 am

From my layman experience using BKK, it always felt sparse. Traffic into BKK isn't going to soar drastically over the next 5 years either. Why on earth would BKK need a third commercial airport?

This reinforces my idea that this government is made up of a bunch of loonies. The investment needs to go into developing roads e.g. to connect towns and villages to the wonderful and perfectly capable BKK. Or to connect their roads to roads in Malaysia and Vietnam as more investment is going to come from around ASEAN (ASEAN Economic Community anyone)? Or build schools and hospitals.
#priorities
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting homobohemicus (Reply 14):
Not certain how well this will go with the "Navy" as I know the Ministry of Defence and mainly the Navy was and is against using U-tapao as a commercial airport and their wish to keep it mostly as a military facility

Well the Ministry of Defense is currently in charge of the nation after their coup, so clearly this is not being done without their consent.
mercure f-wtcc
 
Homobohemicus
Posts: 121
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 2:58 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 16):

being in Thailand for 10 years, you'll be surprised on how quick and how many "interested parties" will pop up with various demands, restrictions, changes and re-planning with a lot of $ faling in between.

An investment in a normal modern rail track would be far better and no need for any bullet trains either... a normal one around 150-160km/h could have Pattaya a very quick ride from Bangkok... But I do see that rail is on the very bottom of the list in Thailand when it comes to modernisation and infrastructure

Pattaya and Utapao would serve the Russians as they are the "bulk" of tourists but this year proved difficult due to politics and the Rubl falling with Russians travelling less...

But again.. investment could help the region.. more work and companies will live off this for a while

[Edited 2015-06-05 19:03:20]
 
hz747300
Posts: 2412
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sat Jun 06, 2015 2:15 am

Seems very close to Pattaya, so it probably could easily bring in 3-5 mln people a year.
Keep on truckin'...
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 19293
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 3:59 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Government seems more focused on modernizing reopened Don Mueang Airport instead of Suvarnabhumi.

Thank you for that information. Not how I would have done it... but oh well.

Quoting hz747300 (Reply 18):
Seems very close to Pattaya, so it probably could easily bring in 3-5 mln people a year.

Thanks for quantifying the near term growth potential.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
bfiguy
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:34 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:39 am

U-Tapao has a heavy military presence, a lot of Thai and U.S military activity. Seen a few mysterious frames here.
No photography signs litter the area and it is not spotter or tourist friendly at all for now.
This field definitely needs to market itself as Pattaya - the drive from here to Bankgkok is BRUTAL!!!!
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 14845
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 4:56 am

Quoting bfiguy (Reply 20):

During the Russian winter, the biggest presence there by far is the Russian charter aircraft.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
christao17
Posts: 924
Joined: Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:14 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:02 am

While UTP doesn't really count as a third Bangkok airport, it does cater to rapidly growing demand in the Rayong and Pattaya area, both manufacturing and business traffic (Rayong) and tourism (Pattaya).

Quoting infinit (Reply 15):
Traffic into BKK isn't going to soar drastically over the next 5 years either.

Are you sure about that? According to Airports of Thailand's website, total combined traffic in Bangkok was about 38.8 million passengers in 2005 and about 66 million in 2014. Traffic has almost doubled in the past 10 years. While a lot of the growth is coming at DMK, that airport alone cannot account for all the growth. I would expect to see BKK continuing to grow quickly, too.

Quoting homobohemicus (Reply 17):
But I do see that rail is on the very bottom of the list in Thailand when it comes to modernisation and infrastructure

There are 3-4 rail lines in greater BKK under construction now and the high speed rail projects have been approved and bidding will shortly begin. I'm not sure how you can say that rail is at the bottom of the list of priorities.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 11):
Why? What was the point of BKK then?

Shut down Don Mueang and expand BKK.

DMK will continue to be an operational facility for the military, charters, VIP aircraft, and maintenance - it doesn't make sense to continue operating the airport and not have passenger operations there. Much more cost-effective to refurbish the terminals than to undertake massive expansion at BKK.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
Too fragmented... The competing hubs should say thank you. There just won't be the connections.

The carriers that provide connections operate from BKK; those that don't can operate from either BKK or DMK and, eventually, UTP.
More than a dozen years flying in and around Asia...
 
covert
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:08 am

Quoting infinit (Reply 15):
Why on earth would BKK need a third commercial airport?

The current facility at BKK is already over it's designed pax capacity of around 60m. It is very noticeable, especially with hour-long immigration lines during peak arrival periods.
none
 
infinit
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:12 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting christao17 (Reply 22):
Are you sure about that? According to Airports of Thailand's website, total combined traffic in Bangkok was about 38.8 million passengers in 2005 and about 66 million in 2014. Traffic has almost doubled in the past 10 years. While a lot of the growth is coming at DMK, that airport alone cannot account for all the growth. I would expect to see BKK continuing to grow quickly, too.

Yes, Bangkok's combined traffic was 66 million in 2014 but it was 67 million in 2013. I personally doubt it is going to spike tremendously in the next 5 years

Quoting covert (Reply 23):
The current facility at BKK is already over it's designed pax capacity of around 60m. It is very noticeable, especially with hour-long immigration lines during peak arrival periods.

Some have since told me BKK can get really congested. I haven't experienced that but of course personal anecdotes are never accurate and its not like I'm flying into BKK that often. Granted too that this new one will also serve another region.

However given the relative proximity of all three airports and the supposed congestion at a relatively new BKK, I cannot help but feel annoyed at the lack of foresight of the Thai government. Had they built one mega airport with better train and road links around it, it would have saved the investment that will go into a third airport. That investment could have gone into other areas the country urgently needs. There are still lots of people living in relative poverty there even in Bangkok
 
lawair
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:18 pm

Quoting infinit (Reply 24):
Yes, Bangkok's combined traffic was 66 million in 2014 but it was 67 million in 2013. I personally doubt it is going to spike tremendously in the next 5 years

That's an incomplete and inaccurate assessment. 2014 numbers were affected by the coup and martial law, so clearly they would be lower. If you look at 2015 January through April statistics for BKK alone, there is a total passenger increase of 15.1% yoy. The past three months have each seen increases of over 16%. For DMK and BKK combined, the increase is 24.7% yoy for January to April. At that rate, 66 million quickly becomes 82 million in just one year. (I'm not claiming that's what's going to happen, but a significant bump will nevertheless likely happen this year.)

Quoting infinit (Reply 24):
Some have since told me BKK can get really congested. I haven't experienced that but of course personal anecdotes are never accurate and its not like I'm flying into BKK that often. Granted too that this new one will also serve another region

The design capacity is actually 45 million. The airport has been over that number for years now. The addition of a new security area has helped slightly but the airport is well beyond capacity during peak times (e.g. Around midnight or so, and a couple other times.)

Quoting infinit (Reply 24):
I cannot help but feel annoyed at the lack of foresight of the Thai government. Had they built one mega airport with better train and road links around it, it would have saved the investment that will go into a third airport.

I agree with you there. BKK is built with adequate road and rail links, but they've done little to nothing to expand the airport capacity. A big part of this has come from political turmoil and rapidly changing governments since the airport opened.

There are plans to extend the current airport rail link or some other high speed rail line to the eastern seaboard, to Pattaya and possibly U Tapao. That might go out for bidding in the next couple years. I also am not sure why this is being marketed as a new Bangkok airport, because it won't be one. It will strictly serve the eastern seaboard, and it might only provide a temporary shelter for BKK flights in the event of diversions or, heaven forbid, another airport shutdown similar to that in 2008.
 
User avatar
LAXintl
Topic Author
Posts: 24269
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:48 pm

DMK and LCC sector is where the big growth is since airports reopening. BKK is actually shrinking

Below enplanement stats

BKK
FY2011 - 47,800,585
FY2012 - 50,929,035
FY2013 - 50,900,697
FY2014 - 45,466,814

DMK
FY2011 - 2,715,444
FY2012 - 3,970,587
FY2013 - 15,562,753
FY2014 - 19,339,038

Source : Air Transport Information Division AoT.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
lawair
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:09 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 26):
DMK and LCC sector is where the big growth is since airports reopening. BKK is actually shrinking

Below enplanement stats

BKK
FY2011 - 47,800,585
FY2012 - 50,929,035
FY2013 - 50,900,697
FY2014 - 45,466,814

DMK
FY2011 - 2,715,444
FY2012 - 3,970,587
FY2013 - 15,562,753
FY2014 - 19,339,038

Source : Air Transport Information Division AoT.

My data comes from AoT as well, and if you look at 2015, it shows non-LCC traffic also growing significantly.

BKK (includes transit passengers)
Jan-Apr 2015 1,299,178 (LCC only) +15.14%
Jan-Apr 2015 17,401,697 (non-LCC) +15.10%

Enplanements/Deplanements only:
Jan-Apr 2015 1,298,120 (LCC only) +15.05%
Jan-Apr 2015 17,118,945 (non-LCC) +15.66%

At this pace, total BKK traffic could exceed 53,000,000 this year, which is well above capacity.

Again, the drop in FY2014 is attributable to the coup and martial law, which was slower to rebound for long haul non-LCC traffic than for low cost regional traffic operating out of DMK. In addition, the collapse of Russian traffic more heavily impacted BKK than DMK. Despite this, 2015 numbers are quite strong in the non-LCC sector as well.

http://aot.listedcompany.com/transport.html

[Edited 2015-06-07 17:21:19]
 
User avatar
mercure1
Posts: 4676
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:13 am

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:24 am

Quoting lawair (Reply 27):
At this pace, total BKK traffic could exceed 53,000,000 this year, which is well above capacity.

BKK at 50 or 53 million is not that impressive when compared to DMK which basically went from token numbers to 20 million in a couple years.

Its clear the trajectory for growth in Bangkok is at DMK and the LCC sector in Thailand and likely why government is focusing on refreshing DMK first.

Also with BKK the airport will be at mercy of fortunes of TG who probably need a serious overhaul with large cuts as MH is doing now.
mercure f-wtcc
 
lawair
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:59 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 28):
Its clear the trajectory for growth in Bangkok is at DMK and the LCC sector in Thailand and likely why government is focusing on refreshing DMK first.

I'm not really arguing against the expansion of either airport. For sure DMK needs it and has been undergoing expansion since it reopened. I was just responding to a narrow point about BKK. Both Bangkok airports need expansion. U Tapao expansion is probably more about providing direct access to Pattaya/Rayong rather than providing relief to BKK.

The government has expansion plans for all the airports. DMK is farthest along with expansion because it effectively started when DMK reopened. And DMK reopened because it was cheaper and faster to do while the BKK expansion was being planned out. BKK expansion is still on the books though; it's just far more costly and time consuming because it includes a new runway, terminal, and APM. The government needed a reliever airport right away because BKK numbers were already over capacity.

U Tapao expansion has been talked about for years, especially during the 2008 crisis. This expansion has a very small dollar figure and it won't realistically have an impact on the Bangkok airports.

There are expansion plans at the regional airports as well. The most visible, of course, is HKT, which is handling double the number of passengers it was designed for. That expansion will be complete next year. As with most expansions in Thailand, these come way later than needed.
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: Bangkok To Get 3rd Commercial Airport

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:55 am

Don't just swallow the marketing statement of a 3rd Bangkok airport, please look at where it is on the map. It is not a Bangkok airport. It is an existing military facility that would be opened to civilian ops, mainly catering to charters going directly to the beaches. It has a market to itself and does not have to affect Bangkok in any significant way, nor does it require any significant invesment. If anything, it could free up slots at BKK, and they would be low-yielding flights anyway.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 11):
Shut down Don Mueang and expand BKK.

No, look at the pax numbers others have posted. Bangkok can very well support two airports. Keeping DMK was the right decision.

Quoting homobohemicus (Reply 17):
An investment in a normal modern rail track would be far better

I agree that Thailand could really use some modern rail, even if just 150km/h and not high speed as you say. Nevertheless, opening this existing facility to civilian ops would need minimal investment, it is a low hanging fruit.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos