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sunking737
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Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 5:50 pm

Sun Country will see an increased amount of flying for Caesars Entertainment Corporation’s Total Rewards Air. You can't sign a long term contract if you are talking about closing your doors. I say that SY and its pilots will come to an agreement soon, and SY will be around for many years.


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/cae...ountry-and-via-airlines-2015-06-04
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
SJCMSP
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:04 pm

Very interesting...and were I the pilots, I'd call their bluff.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:23 pm

Hopeful thinking though courts would prove you otherwise!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
mark8762
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:40 pm

Very interesting as I thought it was Republic that had the Caesar's contract
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:05 pm

The flights to AC have been a lifesaver. Getting people to stay weekdays, its been huge, and they get people on the planes. Dead winter weekdays are dead in AC they need something to pull people in and they have the database of fans to really make these work.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:03 pm

Republic does do some Caesars Entertainment flying, but, as Mariner mentioned in a previous thread, they were looking to get out of those types of service.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Thread starter):
You can't sign a long term contract if you are talking about closing your doors.

If this wasn't a.net I'd be asking which company you meant because Caesars is certainly not doing great either. It is trying to get rid of massive debts that could take it under.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:15 pm

Flying by RAH for Ceasers ends this summer and was announced a while back as part of the E190 fleet removal.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
rampbro
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:27 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
It is trying to get rid of massive debts that could take it under.

I know, I felt bad for them so I donated them some money a few weeks ago. That's what I keep telling myself, anyways.

I didn't know about this and I'm a TR player. I will have to look into this as I bet those flights are a good time.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:50 pm

The flights can be a pretty good deal. Typically a pretty older crew when the they run on weekdays. Really helps to fill the casinos midweeks. AC sells out pretty much every Saturday all summer, its the non summer and weekdays they need serious help filling those places just to break even expensive places to run
 
bahadir
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:49 pm

Sun Country is opening a FA base and MX base here in KIFP. Some of the flying will be done by VIA Airways on EMB 145s (I am guessing some CA and West Coast flying will be on 145s)

I will miss this operation.
Earthbound misfit I
 
b747400erf
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 3:40 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 6):
If this wasn't a.net I'd be asking which company you meant because Caesars is certainly not doing great either. It is trying to get rid of massive debts that could take it under.

It already filed for bankruptcy protection in April.
 
jetwet1
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 4:03 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 11):
It already filed for bankruptcy protection in April.

Actually part of it did, there was a whole bunch of shell games played right before the company filed, pretty much threw all the debt onto.

Caesars Entertainment Operating Company is the part in BK.
Caesars Entertainment Corp, the parent company is not.

Caesars Entertainment Corp is being sued by just about everyone for what it alleged to be Caesars shifted valuable assets away from creditors into entities “not liable” for the debt, the trustee sued CEC for $4B, Caesars being Caesars counter sued....Pretty much Gary Loveman being Gary Loveman.

If CEC is found liable for the $4B then life is going to get very interesting for them.
 
b747400erf
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:22 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 12):
Pretty much Gary Loveman being Gary Loveman.

Bankers or organised crime (some may say, I repeat myself...), who do you not want to piss off more? Thank you for the clarification, very interesting how many tricks available to corporations in the supposed free market.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 6:07 am

Quoting bahadir (Reply 10):
Sun Country is opening a FA base and MX base here in KIFP. Some of the flying will be done by VIA Airways on EMB 145s (I am guessing some CA and West Coast flying will be on 145s)

Sun Country is really opening a MX and FA base in IFP for a single aircraft? Why would they open a FA base and not a pilot base, pilot work rules are much more regulated than FAs.

from the linked article above... "Starting this summer, Sun Country Airlines will operate one Boeing 737-700 while Via Airlines will operate five Embraer 145 regional jets on behalf of Total Rewards Air."
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
nkops
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:31 pm

Quoting mark8762 (Reply 3):

Republic ends its flying in August.

Where is Charter Air (Via) getting the 145s from?
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sat Jun 06, 2015 5:55 pm

One aircraft operating out of Laughlin is going to save SY? They likely had a plane sitting around (no flights to Gander/Stansted?) and I can't imagine a bankrupt gaming company is paying them much. Ever been to Laughlin? I have...besides the drying up Colorado River it's pretty sad. While I wish SY well, this certainly isn't going to contribute much to their continued survival.
 
cbphoto
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sun Jun 07, 2015 5:58 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 16):
One aircraft operating out of Laughlin is going to save SY? They likely had a plane sitting around (no flights to Gander/Stansted?) and I can't imagine a bankrupt gaming company is paying them much. Ever been to Laughlin? I have...besides the drying up Colorado River it's pretty sad. While I wish SY well, this certainly isn't going to contribute much to their continued survival.

HAHA..Save SY? I can't believe people think, with oil being low and passenger travel up and every airline making money right now, that SY is the only passenger airline in the country not making money?? I have and will continue to call their bluff that SY can't afford to pay it's pilots more. Essentially this is shop talk and the CEO decided (wrongfully I think) to take the talk public. He wanted to try to scare ALPA and the pilot group to thinking their jobs were on the line because of their financial health. Maybe, just maybe Cambria will sell SY, but if Cambria wants to be a business player in Minnesota, then shutting down Minnesota's "home town airline" due to pilot contract negotiations won't be the best way for them to succeed in Minnie.

Either way, this contract is good for SY, as summer is usually their slow time anyways!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
blueflyer
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:03 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 17):
I can't believe people think, with oil being low and passenger travel up and every airline making money right now, that SY is the only passenger airline in the country not making money?

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that Sun Country has claimed they're not making a profit, rather that giving in to the pilots' demand would lower their profit too much.

Sun Country is privately held and its owners are presumably expecting a certain rate of return from their investment. It would seem that they have decided that shutting down the airline and investing the recovered capital elsewhere is a more profitable option than settling for a lower rate of return if they give in to the pilots' pay demands.

There's no doubt that it sucks for the entire workforce, but this is the archetype of investing for profit. If an investment doesn't produce the expected return and a better return is available elsewhere, move the money.

[Edited 2015-06-07 14:04:15]
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:30 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:46 pm

Quoting HiFlyerAS (Reply 16):
One aircraft operating out of Laughlin is going to save SY?

No one ever said this will save Sun country. For caesars these charters are a lifesaver and we just meant they really help and have been a huge success. 5 planes bring in alot of people to casinos that would otherwise be almost empty midweek. The charters are huge for Caesars and really helping them in AC
 
b747400erf
Posts: 3172
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:33 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:05 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 18):
rather that giving in to the pilots' demand would lower their profit too much.

The job creators would go bankrupt if they couldn't buy that new Ferrari and vacation home in Hawaii.
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Sun Jun 07, 2015 10:45 pm

There's no bluff.

They can certainly sign a 3-year deal with someone. All deals are subject to you being in business.

Caesear's is a beggar so can't be much of a chooser.

Given the number of flights and total pax carried, they average about 50 people per flight. Which explains why the preponderance of this service is done on E-145s. Caesars can go with Sun Country for now, and if they fold (given the condition of both busineses, let me clarify: if Sun Country folkds) Caesars can get someone else. Orange Air is probably available. All Caesars needs is one 737-700-sized aircraft. Lots of people around to offer that kind of service.

I don' think this is the kind of smoking gun the original poster thinks/hopes/prays it was.
 
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sunking737
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:35 am

Some have missed the point, if you are talking about shutting down or cutting back why sign a new 3 year deal?? That's income, the one 737-700 is what is based at Gulfport now. It says 3 more years. Caesars has a casino in IFP. SY flies one or two 737-800 out of MSP daily that fly to say OKC, then IFP and then say FAR before returning to MSP. IIRC they have sold blocks to seats to Riverside Casino in IFP and have since at lest 2002 if not before. Check out the flights running out of IFP. Rejet wants to drop their EMB 190 as they are too small to make money with. 100 seats ??

SY also is flying more Cuba Charter flights then before, out of JFK IIRC, beside MIA & TPA. Don't forget the DOD flying which is CASH in advance, as are all charters. Back in 2002 they made $1 million in December flying football charters. SY also has many of their winter flights loaded already for winter of 2015-16. You don't do that if you cut back.

Mr Davis ( Chairman) tried to bluff the pilots, not knowing the pilots would in turn release to the media the very same emails.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
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spinkid
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:17 am

Where do these charters fly to ACY from?
 
nkops
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting spinkid (Reply 23):

They do 30 some cities from ACY (some once a month, others like PIT usually twice per week)... they go as far west as DFW and OKC...
The schedule is usually on the Total Rewards website.
Turn left heading 080 contact departure
 
michman
Posts: 901
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 20):
The job creators would go bankrupt if they couldn't buy that new Ferrari and vacation home in Hawaii.

Exactly. SY can pay it. The CEO is bluffing. I've seen their balance sheets.

[Edited 2015-06-07 18:41:51]
 
bahadir
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 14):
Sun Country is really opening a MX and FA base in IFP for a single aircraft?

I think my statement was clear enough, wasn't it? Also, Sun Country won't be operating a single aircraft out of here. I am sure this will help with their Vegas flights too. Having a small mx operation here and being able to RON aircraft for penies on the dollar in IFP vs. LAS will provide some benefits for them.
Earthbound misfit I
 
wjcandee
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Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:41 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 22):

Some have missed the point, if you are talking about shutting down or cutting back why sign a new 3 year deal?? That's income, the one 737-700 is what is based at Gulfport now. It says 3 more years.

No it doesn't. If you're in business, you keep conducting business until you decide to shut down.

I have shut down businesses. In my experience, you keep blowing and going full-tilt until you decide to wind it down. You haven't seen the contract, so you don't know what provisions it has for termination at will by either party on X days' notice, which is a common provision.

Sorry, but this just doesn't mean what you think/hope it does. And since you're not the guy who mortgage depends upon what decision the pilot group makes, me personally I would stay the heck out of it.

[Edited 2015-06-07 23:42:31]
 
wjcandee
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:45 am

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 22):
Don't forget the DOD flying which is CASH in advance, as are all charters

Um...all PUBLIC charters are to be paid by the time of departure, by regulation. Private charters can be had on credit. My impression is that DOD charters are not cash in advance; I seem to remember World needing cash flow to sustain their DOD operations.
 
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sunking737
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:00 pm

An update on SY vs Pilots....N712SY is being painted in the new operators colors right now. Going to Goodyear after return check for them to install the Row44 Internet. Then off to BOC in Bolivia. So SY is down to 5-700's now. I knew 712 was leaving last fall.

6 airplanes have leases that expire next year. Some may get extended if they are still around. Nothing on the
horizon at all for new/replacement airplanes. So if the pilots reach a deal leases extended and new planes added, no deal planes go and jobs get cut. Ball is in pilots court now.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"

I'm a SUNDUCK......Worked for RC & SY @ MSP
 
DiamondFlyer
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Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:04 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 29):
6 airplanes have leases that expire next year. Some may get extended if they are still around. Nothing on the
horizon at all for new/replacement airplanes. So if the pilots reach a deal leases extended and new planes added, no deal planes go and jobs get cut. Ball is in pilots court now.

Yes, the ball is in the pilot's court, to get paid what is a fair wage from a company that can afford it. Those who insist SY can't afford to pay them more are insane.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
B757capt
Posts: 1403
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 30):
BOC in Bolivia

Thats funny.
The views written by this user are in no manner the views of my employer and should not be thought as such.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1348
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:57 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 29):
An update on SY vs Pilots....N712SY is being painted in the new operators colors right now. Going to Goodyear after return check for them to install the Row44 Internet. Then off to BOC in Bolivia. So SY is down to 5-700's now. I knew 712 was leaving last fall.

6 airplanes have leases that expire next year. Some may get extended if they are still around. Nothing on the
horizon at all for new/replacement airplanes. So if the pilots reach a deal leases extended and new planes added, no deal planes go and jobs get cut. Ball is in pilots court now.

Spoken like a true management person. The Ceasers contract is a pretty lucrative one. I am not sure if they are going to use same aircraft from IFP to the same destinations for both Ceasers and Riverside, but the additional flying.
SunCountry even leased some aircraft for short period of time last winter from Transavia.

I am sure the company is in pretty good shape as far as future contracts.

On a different note, Sun Country pilots start at $31/hr. Commutair pilots start at $30/hr.
I will let the readers decide if the Sun Country pilots are the problem here.
Earthbound misfit I
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1260
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:29 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 29):
6 airplanes have leases that expire next year. Some may get extended if they are still around. Nothing on the horizon at all for new/replacement airplanes. So if the pilots reach a deal leases extended and new planes added, no deal planes go and jobs get cut. Ball is in pilots court now.

Ball is no where near the pilots court and it shouldn't be. The group as a whole took a pay cut to bail Sun Country out the last time they were in financial trouble. The company has since grown, acquired more planes and new routes and is now profitable, all on the backs of cheap labor by the pilot group. The pilot group is sick of flying mainline airplanes at regional pay scales. Frankly if management is too selfish to realize Sun Country is what is it today because of the sacrifices the work groups have made, then they deserve to be put out of business by the pilot group.
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
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spinkid
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RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:52 pm

Its a shame this thread got hijacked to discuss the pilots and management situation at Sun Country.

Sun Country has been doing charters to Laughlin for Years.
 
atct
Posts: 2472
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:42 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting sunking737 (Reply 22):
Don't forget the DOD flying which is CASH in advance, as are all charters.

Which is drying up faster as each month goes by.
Trikes are for kids!
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: Sun Country And Caesars Entertainment

Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:13 pm

Quoting spinkid (Reply 34):
Its a shame this thread got hijacked to discuss the pilots and management situation at Sun Country.

Maybe because the OP started the thread with this...

Quoting sunking737 (Thread starter):
I say that SY and its pilots will come to an agreement soon, and SY will be around for many years.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.

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